After investigating the phantom/stray voltage on our water pump switch circuit, I decided to redo the wiring to the pump. Since we use multiple switches, it seemed like using a water pump controller would be the way to go. Basically, the thing is a latching relay which open/closes the ground conductor to the water pump each time a momentary switch is depressed. The biggest advantage seems to be that the pump can be turned on/off from any switch regardless of which switch turned it on. Right now we have three switches, and it's necessary to turn off the pump from the switch which was turned on.
The controller I'm going to use is the Intellitec 15-amp Water Pump Controller 00-00776-200
Here's a link to the information/wiring diagram:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=2ahUKEwiHsYGZ8JTjAhXLHM0KHeEkDGoQFjAEegQIBRAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mikerobotics.com%2FIntellitec%2FPDF%2F5300776.000.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0u6ybFXZsWW-UYy5ZtoFn4
Seems pretty straightforward - feed the 12v+ to the pump directly from the fuse panel. Run a ground wire to the controller on one terminal and then on to the pump from another terminal. The switches all provide ground to the switch terminal, and the indicators connect to their terminal.
Question... The instructions state that the controller is for use on pumps pulling at least 5 amps up to 15 amps. I understand the upper limit, but I can't figure out why they state a low-end limit for the controller. If it's a simple latching relay, what would they need a minimum current draw from the pump? My pump is rated to pull 5.2 amps, but of course at pressure it will pull zero.
What's more confusing, is that once pressure is obtained the pump will be pulling zero amps. I still want to be able to control the on/off state of the pump even when it's at pressure.
They also have a smaller pump controller which tops out at 10 amps, but it doesn't have the dedicated 12v+ feed for the indicator lamps which I plan to use. It also wouldn't give me room to install a better pump down the road.
Anyone have any experience with these controllers that can help me understand better?
Have you thought about simply wiring it like a "hall way" switch. You'd be able to switch the pump on or off at any switch, there wouldn't be any phantom drain and best of all you wouldn't need any of those pesky latching relays. Jack
Keep it simple! 5,10 years from now if you have trouble, just that much more to diagnose. The water pump on our 4104 had a switch up front to shut it off when we left the coach for a while. No floods from a leak or empty water tank.
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 01, 2019, 05:39:49 PM
Keep it simple! 5,10 years from now if you have trouble, just that much more to diagnose. The water pump on our 4104 had a switch up front to shut it off when we left the coach for a while. No floods from a leak or empty water tank.
It was simple when I first got the bus - one switch over the dash. Problem was finding it in the dark when we went to use the bathroom in the middle of the night. Stubbed toes and excessive cursing followed.
Then I added a switch in the bathroom. Of course that prompted a request to have one in the kitchen. And here we are.
I've already ordered the controller. Not really that complicated to install. Once I get it I'll poke around with a multimeter and see if I can figure out what makes it tick. Maybe I'll be able to figure out what they're talking about with the minimum current spec.
I'll add a wiring diagram for whatever I install into the book I keep with all the Custom Coach wiring diagrams. Should make future work easier.
I just leave my pump turned on all time. I only turn it off when I'm not using the bus.
Quote from: bevans6 on July 02, 2019, 04:22:27 AM
I just leave my pump turned on all time. I only turn it off when I'm not using the bus.
You've got lots more faith in your plumbing system than I do. I used to do that, then one day we returned from dinner to find our 90-gallons of fresh water had pumped out through a leaking fitting under the bathroom sink. The water soak the carpet upstairs and then worked its way down to the basement through the electrical bay. Fortunately there was no lasting damage, but we made a point to never leave the pump on when we're not in the bus. Usually only leave it on when we're actually using it, which is why there are switches at the two points of use.
If you didn't have a parasitic drain before adding extra switches... why would you turn off pump while in the coach. If it started unauthorized running, you'd hear it.
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 02, 2019, 04:42:08 AM
If you didn't have a parasitic drain before adding extra switches... why would you turn off pump while in the coach. If it started unauthorized running, you'd hear it.
Mainly out of habit.
My initial fear was a slow leak. After we had the fiasco under the bathroom sink, I realized that it had been dripping slowly for a while before it totally let loose. I'm not always in the bus, and apparently not everyone hears the pump when it runs.
Can't tell you how many times I've heard a noise while driving and turned to my co-pilot and asked if I could get some help identifying where the noise was coming from, only to be answered by "what noise?"
Not everyone hears every tick, click, pump sound, etc. that we hear, so I would never rely on someone else hearing the pump run when it shouldn't be.
This thread brings up a principle...
Who is in charge? The busnut or the coach?
Treat the cause, or the symptom?
Adding more processes, more equipment, in the silent eyes of the rest of the crew MORE BULLSHIIT to the "busing adventure"
Ever wonder why so few busnut children turn down "inheriting" the family coach? And don't RV at all?
Could it have something to do with this sort of thing? In the case of this thread, a switch before the tap, oh, wait, the breaker has to be on... oh damn the batteries are dead... etc, add the rest of the possibilities...
Back to the principle, if the coach is any more obtuse to use than a typical house or hotel room... who wants to use it?
The best coach is the invisible coach, anyone steps into it, systems work in a familiar way, no training required? No distraction?
We've all seen the raving type A personality RV'er at a campground somewhere... suffering family in tow...
There's a common bond of suffering amongst the busnut women... but they won't say anything... yet...
Work arounds to save money, cuz if I don't, there's no fuel money, is a different thing.
In this thread's case, I'd be re-doing the wonky plumbing bits and the whole thing goes away.
That damned bus behaves or else...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Buswarrior...That certainly is the goal, to make using the bus as similar as using the house. We're slowly getting there. Maybe if we can make it a few more trips without any additional plumbing problems I'll be able to start trusting the plumbing system a bit more. This is one of the problems with getting a bus already converted - it's really hard to gain access to every nook and cranny to inspect previous work.
We had water in the bathroom again this spring, and immediately my mind went to another plumbing leak. I even used my endoscope to inspect in the wall behind the shower to see if the shower valve was leaking. Ended up being a leaking window seal finding its way into the bathroom.
I think I've had my eyes on every inch of plumbing now, and have had my hands an nearly every inch. Maybe I'll trust it soon. We'll see...
I sympathize with you Richard. My Coachman had improper plumbing and I had to replace every fitting. What a pain in the patootie. But, once finished I was able to leave the pump on and it never ticked over, ever. Unless someone used water. Before that sad experience, every now and then you'd hear it bump. That only means one of two things. Either the valves are bad in the pump, or you have a leak. The leak being the most likely.
If you are completely confident in your plumbing skills (as you should be) and you can confirm the integrity of the entire system, then you shouldn't have to worry with the power switch, but it wouldn't hurt to have a cutoff by the door. Same as we put a switch for the water heater by the door.
I like the pump to be loud enough to hear it clearly inside the coach.
Jim
We only have one water pump switch in the kitchen. It stays on all the time we are in the bus. We turn it off when we leave the coach for any length of time. Simple.
JC
I never turn our pump off till we leave the RV or bus,we have meters for water use they are about the most useless gadget you can have .when the tank is empty I fill it up and dump the holding tanks I never read the meter 8) I still cannot figure how you have battery drain on a demand water pump interesting
If the pump is keep the water line pressurized, why not add a gauge tapped into the line somewhere to monitor pressure loss.
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 02, 2019, 12:21:31 PM
If the pump is keep the water line pressurized, why not add a gauge tapped into the line somewhere to monitor pressure loss.
Good idea, but I'm afraid that if someone doesn't recognize the pump running by the noise it makes a gauge isn't really going to help either. I'm kind of on my own with monitoring things in the pump department. Just trying to make it as easy as possible to have things turned on/off as needed.
The gauge is to check if pump sporadically runs for a short period with all water taps off. If it drops slowly, you've got a problem that needs looked into. You can't hear your pump when it runs?
Richard, it sounds like you are overthinking this issue.
First if you are concerned about a water leak fix your plumbing system so it is reliable. You want to make the bus like your house and you don't turn off your pump or house water supply when you leave the house so make sure the bus plumbing is just as reliable.
I don't know what water pump you have, but the simplest pump control is a well water pressure switch tied into a circuit that uses an accumulator tank. Power to the pump goes through the switch and on a well pump switch you can adjust cut in and cut out pressure as well as the differential. Assuming no leaks in the system usually an RV pump cycles because the check valve between the pump and water tank is leaking water under pressure back into the tank.
You may already have an accumulator tank because if your HW tank is heated by engine coolant it needs a way to handle the water expansion as it heats.
Quote from: Jon on July 03, 2019, 04:53:04 AM
Richard, it sounds like you are overthinking this issue.
First if you are concerned about a water leak fix your plumbing system so it is reliable. You want to make the bus like your house and you don't turn off your pump or house water supply when you leave the house so make sure the bus plumbing is just as reliable.
Not so much overthinking as being overly paranoid. One flood from a leak was enough. I have gone through the entire system and everything seems to be good. But, it's only good till it's not. Maybe I'll trust it again sometime soon...
And about the home system, I actually do turn off the well pump when we leave for a vacation or extended trip. Flipping a switch is much easier than cleaning up from a flood due to a plumbing leak.
Remember, this all started because I noticed some phantom/stray voltage on the wires to the switch. That was resolved by moving some wires in the harness. During the process I discovered that installing a controller would make our current three switch setup much more convenient since we'd be able to turn the pump on/off from any location regardless of where it was turned on. It will also allow me to add another switch in the process in the wet bay. To me it will be better for the pump as well, since it will shorten the length of wire carrying the current to the pump by about 20 feet, since the power will go directly from the battery fuse box to the pump and not through the switches.
I think what you are doing makes sense, it's just a little more complex than it needs to be, which is perfectly in accord with modern trends.
Jim
Or you could get a smart receptacle and tell Alexis to turn the pump on or off, even away from coach.
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 03, 2019, 01:33:53 PM
Or you could get a smart receptacle and tell Alexis to turn the pump on or off, even away from coach.
But since Richard is already paranoid, having Alexis listening to everything he says will not help. If the water tank is down in the bay he simply needs to turn the pump off when he is not there. However, a leak could start while he is sleeping, so he needs an alarm that would go off if the pump activates, or turn off the pump when not in the coach and/or not conscious. ::)
Yeah, but she could yellTHE PUMP IS RUNNING ...maybe your system is flooding...RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!! in the middle of the night. 😲
Ah, the good old days of steel tent camping...
One of those cursed plastic pumps that fit on the water cooler jugs... fooled the kids into thinking pumping it was an adventure...
However, still a risk of flooding, if the bottle wasn't secured before moving...
Nothing easy in this bus life...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Install is complete. Took a while to get things tucked away neatly, but I've got to say that the thing really works nicely. Maybe more complicated than some would like, but now I can turn the water on from any of the three locations (kitchen, bath, wet bay) and can turn if off again from any location (not just the one that turned it on).
A tad bit safer now too, since the momentary switches that trigger the relay carry only ground. The 12v+ goes directly from fuse block to pump. I couldn't get the proper connector right away, so I used terminals covered with heat shrink. I've got the connector coming, and I'll get that installed soon.
Nice wiring! Looks good and glad to hear that it works like you wanted.
Gary D