It's time to fix my leaking oil seal on the driver's side of my steer axle.
After discussing it with Luke and reading tons of opinions online, I've decided to switch my steer axle to greased from oil bath. Two main reasons are that we don't drive the bus all that much (every other week in the Summer and not much at all in the Winter) and I don't want to deal with leaking oil seals that ruin brake shoes again. I have no problem re-greasing bearings every 25k or so.
I'd like this thread to be a chronicle of this project not a restarting of the grease vs oil debate, if that can be helped! :)
We full-time so I'm doing this project basically in a forest trail asphalt parking lot up here in Oregon. I didn't figure the RV Park would appreciate my DIY or Die attitude.
At around midnight (no hornets and flies and were night owls anyways) my wife and I jacked up the bus with our 20-ton HF air jack. We did this manually cause the 2000 watt generator doesn't like to power my compressor at this altitude. Then we used the 64:1 torque multiplier miracle lug wrench on the leaking driver side wheel. Left hand studs were a trip and I had to keep reminding myself of them. The lug wrench was a dream. It was easy to use and felt really controlled and smooth. For fun I tried to remove one with a 3/4" breaker bar and 4' cheater pipe but couldn't do it easily.
Using a 1" iron pipe we shimmied the wheel off the studs and rolled it to the back to lean against the bus. We're not laying that bad boy down if we can help it!
Then I saw something that might just make my week! No drum-to-hub screws!!! Yes! I was all prepared with punches and drill bits for a battle. Battle cancelled.
Tomorrow I'll work on removing the hub and making a special tool for the bearing adjusting nut. It's the one with the two dowel holes.
If you don't have a problem regreasing every 25,000 miles, then why do you have a problem with oiled bearings? There are virtually no trucks or buses with greased bearings on the front or rear axle anymore. When I bought my bus, I had the greased bearings changed to oil bearings. That was in 1993. Still good to this day (I was just under the front of the bus.)
Just repair what you have and keep the oil bearings. Brake linings are not that expensive-should be less than $100 each. Good Luck, TomC
You can adjust the special nut for the bearings with two punches and a long screw driver. You do it up as tight as you can, spin the hub, then back off, repeat a few times, then adjust your clearance per the book, and torque down the retaining nut. I won't comment on the oil vs grease debacle, oops, debate... :)
You need to carefully examine the spacer that is on the inside of the stub axle, that the seal rides on. It needs to be perfect, or extremely good, or the new seal won't last. That spacer is a replaceable part, although I chose to speedi-sleeve mine.
Quote from: luvrbus on June 04, 2019, 10:52:52 AM
The only reason oil seals fail is lack of maintaince and to much run out,plus people installing one with a 2x4 and hammer
Before removing the bearings I tried to measure the end play. I've never done this before but followed instructions I found online. I set the magnet on the spindle and positioned the dial indicator on the hub where the stemco hub cap bolts to. Then I pushed and pulled the hub in and out but not twisting. I did this multiple times and the dial did not move. Do I do that correctly?
When I got to the adjusting nut I could remove it easily by hand.
The seal was a scotseal classic which I'm replacing with a plus xl because no special tools are needed. The seal said 2013 on it.
The bearings look good without any evidence of overheating or damage. I'm soaking them in gasoline then I'll take a closer look without spinning them too much.
How big a lever did you use to try to move the hub? I would use a 2' long prybar if I was trying this measurement. Sounds like you are going in the right direction.
Hmmm... I didn't use a pry bar I just pushed and pulled about as hard as I could on the hub. What should I pry on?
Brake lining aren't that expensive??? Plus solvents to clean up and rags, towels... Oil bath seals are great along with sunroofs, till they leak and make one hell of a mess. Most trucking companies use oil seals because of less labor in having to service repacking bearings. Eventually the oil bearing setup will disappear and go to sealed assemblies. It may take Gnarly bus ten years to accumulate 25,000 miles. And if he has a seal leak oil out on a trip and pays a garage to repair it, the cost could reach a grand.
Brake lining aren't that expensive??? Plus solvents to clean up and rags, towels... Oil bath seals are great along with sunroofs, till they leak and make one hell of a mess. Most trucking companies use oil seals because of less labor in having to service repacking bearings. Eventually the oil bearing setup will disappear and go to sealed assemblies. It may take Gnarly bus ten years to accumulate 25,000 miles. And if he has a seal leak oil out on a trip and pays a garage to repair it, the cost could reach a grand.
Thanks Chessie! I actually was quoted a grand just for the wheel seals on the steer axle! Plus these 14.5x5 linings were really rough to track down until I called Luke at US Coach.
It's taken me 5 years to put on 14k miles.
The project is going well. I've cleaned all of the gear oil out of the bearings, hubs and other pieces. I'll be replacing the brake linings that are soaked and doing a full inspection of the brake components.
I saw a YouTube video where a guy used a needle fitting on his grease gun to fill his bearings then made sure by finishing them by hand the palm push way. Im gonna try that. I'm gonna use a full synthetic Valvoline grease with moly. It's done me real well on my car bearings.
One more thing: I won't even mention what the tire shop had put on my lug studs to keep them from seizing because I know no one can resist that debate either but I will say that I bought a tube of inspection torque seal paint that goes onto the studs and lug nuts that's designed to crack if they loosen at all. Wasn't expensive and should give me some piece of mind. I guess it's used on all kinds of stuff in aviation but I'd never heard of it until yesterday.
I checked the studs and nuts really closely and they look good.
My lug nut covers are getting rusty. They aren't expensive but I kinda like the look of the wheels without them.
Quote from: GnarlyBus on June 04, 2019, 05:31:20 PM
One more thing: I won't even mention what the tire shop had put on my lug studs to keep them from seizing because I know no one can resist that debate either but I will say that I bought a tube of inspection torque seal paint that goes onto the studs and lug nuts that's designed to crack if they loosen at all. Wasn't expensive and should give me some piece of mind. I guess it's used on all kinds of stuff in aviation but I'd never heard of it until yesterday.
I checked the studs and nuts really closely and they look good.
My lug nut covers are getting rusty. They aren't expensive but I kinda like the look of the wheels without them.
Torque seal paint has been around for a long time, a mark a lot will do the same thing for a buck,lol I like the cross/check in pink.Trucking co's use the gear lube for mileage gain
With the bearings cleaned completely, inspect closely the race the rollers ride on. Hold it up to the light and peer inside. Many times there will be large pits in the surface that doesn't show much on the rollers.
These can make packing bearings a breeze. Just use a grease gun with correct grease. Check bearing od to be sure it is large enough.
https://www.amazon.com/Plews-70-025-Deluxe-Bearing-Packer/dp/B0002YWULG/ref=sr_1_4?crid=3USRWCU10HBW8&keywords=wheel+bearing+packer&qid=1559696040&s=gateway&sprefix=Bearing+packer%2Caps%2C156&sr=8-4
I made this tool for the adjusting nut. I used 1" square steel tubing 1/16" thick about a foot long and drilled holes for the 60D nails. All in for $11. It took about 5 mins.
The square tubing should keep the nail shafts from twerking and damaging the dowel holes like someone did before.
While not completely necessary as you can get by with punches or even apparently just tightening it by hand if you've done it enough times, this gives me a little more confidence. Plus, I've got 3 more wheels to do!
I got the 60D nail idea from another thread on here where the guy welded a nut to square tubing which was a cool idea.
Quote from: chessie4905 on June 04, 2019, 05:53:07 PM
With the bearings cleaned completely, inspect closely the race the rollers ride on. Hold it up to the light and peer inside. Many times there will be large pits in the surface that doesn't show much on the rollers.
Thank you for the tip, I just did this and they look real clean and undamaged.
Quote from: GnarlyBus on June 04, 2019, 06:25:49 PM
I made this tool for the adjusting nut. I used 1" square steel tubing 1/16" thick about a foot long and drilled holes for the 60D nails. All in for $11. It took about 5 mins.
The square tubing should keep the nail shafts from twerking and damaging the dowel holes like someone did before.
While not completely necessary as you can get by with punches or even apparently just tightening it by hand if you've done it enough times, this gives me a little more confidence. Plus, I've got 3 more wheels to do!
I got the 60D nail idea from another thread on here where the guy welded a nut to square tubing which was a cool idea.
That looks good ,the easy way to make a pin wrench is buy a "Cheap" H/F adjustable 12 in wrench and drill 2 holes the size of the pin then it is adjustable ,I have one made by Proto I have had for 50 years
I just went through all this. Opted for oil bath.
https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=33821.0
Good luck with yours.
David
Quote from: David Anderson on June 04, 2019, 08:51:01 PM
I just went through all this. Opted for oil bath.
https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=33821.0
Good luck with yours.
David
Yes, solid thread. It came along right when I first heard my seal was leaking and it was helpful to me.
Its all back together now. I recommend the SKF Plus XL seals. They are very easy to install by hand and seem much less likely to leak.
The hub went back on the spindle without much trouble. My wife handed me the outside bearing and adjusting nut and I tightened it down. I felt the nut bind while spinning the hub and backed it off. Then put the special washers on and the lock nut.
Then I measured the end play. There wasn't any! Plus the hub was binding slightly. It must have been the locknut. So I redid it and when I put it all back together it felt great. I measured the end play by twisting about 20 degrees back and forth while pulling then twisting while pushing. I read these instructions in a meritor manual online I'll try to attach later. It was right at .003 so I called it good.
I trusted the stemco window hub caps but I'm thinking I may track down ones without windows. Or maybe. Make a plate to go over the windowed portion. I read that synthetic grease likes to be vented.
We used the ol' stand on a cheater pipe 2.5' feet out to tighten the lugnuts down in a star pattern. We did it while building up in torque. I did a few about as hard as I could without straining with the 3' cheater and they were real close to standing on it.
This seal replacement job really wasn't all that difficult. I'd encourage anyone who wants to to try to do it themselves.
Bonus tip: Most bottle jacks come with a wimpy two piece pole for pumping. I used a 1/2" ID black pipe 4' long which keeps me out from under the bus. Although it does take a while to pump! The tip is take an angle grinder and grind a slot in the end of the pipe to fit on the air release to drop the jack. Way safer than being under it while releasing the air.
Now that I'm at my laptop I'll add a bit more.
I debated whether to order the brake linings and do them at the same time as the hub seal. I decided that I'd do the hub first and inspect the whole area: s cam bushings, brake chambers, slack adjuster, steering linkage, etc. I did clean the brake linings with a few cans of brake cleaner but I'm under no illusions that this will cut it.
Everything in the brake and steering systems in the driver's side axle area looked good. No S Cam play. No giant push rod movement on the brake chamber. The drums measured good as well and don't have much wear at all.
So I'll be ordering the linings from Luke and I'll pop off the tire and drum on the drivers side and replace them then do the complete job on the passenger side before eventually doing the tag axles probably when I go south as they are in fine shape.
I anti-seized face of the hub where the drum makes contact so that it would come off easier next time.
I also had a little surprise when I went to put the tire back on where the body had aired down enough to rest on my worn out bump stops. The tire wouldn't fit under the rubber fender trim so I used the 12 ton stubby to raise it up. That did the trick.
Nice report, and pictures too!
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: GnarlyBus on June 05, 2019, 11:50:25 AM
Its all back together now. I recommend the SKF Plus XL seals. They are very easy to install by hand and seem much less likely to leak.
The hub went back on the spindle without much trouble. My wife handed me the outside bearing and adjusting nut and I tightened it down. I felt the nut bind while spinning the hub and backed it off. Then put the special washers on and the lock nut.
Then I measured the end play. There wasn't any! Plus the hub was binding slightly. It must have been the locknut. So I redid it and when I put it all back together it felt great. I measured the end play by twisting about 20 degrees back and forth while pulling then twisting while pushing. I read these instructions in a meritor manual online I'll try to attach later. It was right at .003 so I called it good.
I trusted the stemco window hub caps but I'm thinking I may track down ones without windows. Or maybe. Make a plate to go over the windowed portion. I read that synthetic grease likes to be vented.
We used the ol' stand on a cheater pipe 2.5' feet out to tighten the lugnuts down in a star pattern. We did it while building up in torque. I did a few about as hard as I could without straining with the 3' cheater and they were real close to standing on it.
This seal replacement job really wasn't all that difficult. I'd encourage anyone who wants to to try to do it themselves.
Bonus tip: Most bottle jacks come with a wimpy two piece pole for pumping. I used a 1/2" ID black pipe 4' long which keeps me out from under the bus. Although it does take a while to pump! The tip is take an angle grinder and grind a slot in the end of the pipe to fit on the air release to drop the jack. Way safer than being under it while releasing the air.
The run out end play is why the method on the newer stuff is different,the old method is almost imposable to get right without guessing a lot because when you tighten the lock nut to the spec the end play changes
I hear that. The manual says something like "tighten it until it binds and then back off an 1/8 turn and finish assembly". 'Til it binds? That's not a very objective term to me. So I figured I'd at least use a dial indicator so I had something to measure.
Lots of YouTube videos I saw have the cone in the middle between the bearings so the techs can do them quicker.
I'll add this info for the next guy who changes out a wheel seal on an MC-9.
Inner Bearing (Race): Timken 6379 (6320)
Outer Bearing (Race): Timken 557-S (557-A)
If you change the bearings you need to change the races.
Wheel Seal: SKF Scotseal PlusXL 40091 (Premium install by hand) or Scotseal Classic 40086 (Classic install with tool) or National 370066A
I've attached a diagram of how much grease is supposed to be in the hub and bearings. Some people get confused and pack the hub caps with grease.
I've also attached the instructions from Hendrickson for measuring end play that I used.
Hopefully this thread helps someone. That's why were all here, right?!