The side sign panel on my bus is buckled on both sides of the bus in the exact same spot above the wheels. I would like to use the panel rather than replace it. I could reattach the channel and push the panel flat but it will just "push" the buckle farther down the bus side. Has anyone had this on their bus? If so, how did you fix it?
One more pic.
You need to pull the side and repair the rust BTDT on my DL3 rust is common in that area for a DL3 no easy fix there sorry
Ok, so pull the panel's and fix the rust by welding in new steel. Got it, do you think the panel itself can be reused?
Quote from: luvrbus on May 14, 2019, 04:08:40 PM
You need to pull the side and repair the rust BTDT on my DL3 rust is common in that area for a DL3 no easy fix there sorry
Buckling skins are never a good thing...
It points to something moving that shouldn't...
You won't know what you're going to be able to use until you get into it.
Greyhound has been known to just make a rectangular cut out and rivet a piece back over it...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I think i would rather pull it all off and see what's behind it. I'm also thinking about raising the roof so it would be good to weld in more structure support.
quote author=buswarrior link=topic=34009.msg389973#msg389973 date=1557876904]
Buckling skins are never a good thing...
It points to something moving that shouldn't...
You won't know what you're going to be able to use until you get into it.
Greyhound has been known to just make a rectangular cut out and rivet a piece back over it...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
[/quote]
You need help to save the skin that is a 40 ft long piece of metal to much for 1 man ,there is a guy on F/B MCI conversion that just finished his repairs on a DL
I didn't know there was a Facebook page. Do you know what it is called? I looked up MCI Conversions but I just get pages for selling buses.
Quote from: luvrbus on May 14, 2019, 07:13:07 PM
You need help to save the skin that is a 40 ft long piece of metal to much for 1 man ,there is a guy on F/B MCI conversion that just finished his repairs on a DL
The 2 I belong to are MCI bus to RV conversion and MCI bus conversions
JC, you had asked me what that panel was made out of and I just got around to looking at it yesterday. Things have been a little busy here lately. By now you know it is aluminum.
I have a few very mild ripples in mine, more or less depending on how the bus is parked. I don't think it is enough to justify pulling the panels but I can see where yours would be. You might be able to roll the panel up as it comes off unless it has a rolled edge or something. Shouldn't be too heavy to handle. I have some rolls of aluminum nearly that long up on the shelf though it may not be quite as thick. Easily lifted with one hand.
Anyway best of luck with it, I'd very much like to see what caused the bulges. I've walked down the sides of the bus and banged on that panel. Some places it sounds dead, some places it feels totally solid and other places it makes a little noise.
Jim
While you are there you will probably find some of the rear suspension that is going to need a little TLC with replacement of the square tubing that is not a bad job to do with the lower side off. You really need help to save the siding a 27 inch x 40 ft long is tough to handle by your self. I am going to remove my upper that is 51 inches wide when the time comes I can tell you it will be cold beer and BBQ plus band aids
On the eagle I used a couple come-a-longs and lowered the whole skin down at once before rolling it up.
HTH
Hi Jim
I think my panel is steel. I took a magnet to it and it sticks. This is very strange because I thought others had aluminum like yours.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on May 15, 2019, 06:41:19 AM
JC, you had asked me what that panel was made out of and I just got around to looking at it yesterday. Things have been a little busy here lately. By now you know it is aluminum.
I have a few very mild ripples in mine, more or less depending on how the bus is parked. I don't think it is enough to justify pulling the panels but I can see where yours would be. You might be able to roll the panel up as it comes off unless it has a rolled edge or something. Shouldn't be too heavy to handle. I have some rolls of aluminum nearly that long up on the shelf though it may not be quite as thick. Easily lifted with one hand.
Anyway best of luck with it, I'd very much like to see what caused the bulges. I've walked down the sides of the bus and banged on that panel. Some places it sounds dead, some places it feels totally solid and other places it makes a little noise.
Jim
Did you do a roof raise on your D series?
Quote from: luvrbus on May 15, 2019, 07:49:44 AM
While you are there you will probably find some of the rear suspension that is going to need a little TLC with replacement of the square tubing that is not a bad job to do with the lower side off. You really need help to save the siding a 27 inch x 40 ft long is tough to handle by your self. I am going to remove my upper that is 51 inches wide when the time comes I can tell you it will be cold beer and BBQ plus band aids
Looks like you are right about the steel. Never even considered that. I made a very small scratch and saw what looked like aluminum and made an assumption. Maybe it's galvanized or plated. In any case that is going to be a good bit heavier than if it was aluminum.
Jim
The siding is stainless steel but a magnet will stick on a DL bus
Thats interesting.
quote author=luvrbus link=topic=34009.msg390034#msg390034 date=1558028357]
The siding is stainless steel but a magnet will stick on a DL bus
[/quote]
Quote from: Jcparmley on May 16, 2019, 11:29:51 AM
Thats interesting.
quote author=luvrbus link=topic=34009.msg390034#msg390034 date=1558028357]
The siding is stainless steel but a magnet will stick on a DL bus
ferritic stainless steels are generally magnetic while austenitic stainless steels usually are not. A ferritic stainless steel owes its magnetism to two factors: its high concentration of iron and its fundamental structure. I slept at a Holiday Inn last night,,, The bus as usual was broke. 8)
Jared, bulging/sagging sides is unfortunately a common occurance on the DL's. Stand at the front corner and look down the belt line and you will probably see an arch over the rear axles, signs of underlying structural damage and weakness. If the sides are bulging its a good indicator of underlying rust issues as others have said. When I was looking for a bus before I bought mine, I looked at several that I could put my hand through the sides by the rear axles. I paid more than I care to admit for my bus, but I felt comfortable doing so because after thorough close inspection the body appeared to be in excellent condition with barely even any surface rust. I can look down the belt line and see no sag or droop.
Magnetic stainless? I sure would have never expected that one. It's a good bit more expensive than the non-magnetic stainless like 304 which would have been plenty adequate. Unless they wanted to be able to stick magnetic signs to it... anyway JC we now know that is premium material you're dealing with so act accordingly.
Jim
Magnetic stainless more expensive than non magnetic? Are you sure? The car mfgs. use it in exhaust systems, because, I would assume, that it is cheaper than the non magnetic.
Quote from: chessie4905 on May 16, 2019, 05:08:03 PM
Magnetic stainless more expensive than non magnetic? Are you sure? The car mfgs. use it in exhaust systems, because, I would assume, that it is cheaper than the non magnetic.
They use the good stuff because of liability, warranty issues and the government and carbon monoxide. Probably 4 more reasons I cant think of right now.
Definitely. 300 series is the industrial workhorse of stainless. By the time you get to 400 series you're into things like custom knife blades. Check out any online metal suppliers. I needed some awhile back to make magnetic seat belt buckles from and the cost was almost prohibitive.
Jim
How does one fix this? Any suggestions?
Quote from: thomasinnv on May 16, 2019, 01:31:05 PM
Jared, bulging/sagging sides is unfortunately a common occurance on the DL's. Stand at the front corner and look down the belt line and you will probably see an arch over the rear axles, signs of underlying structural damage and weakness. If the sides are bulging its a good indicator of underlying rust issues as others have said. When I was looking for a bus before I bought mine, I looked at several that I could put my hand through the sides by the rear axles. I paid more than I care to admit for my bus, but I felt comfortable doing so because after thorough close inspection the body appeared to be in excellent condition with barely even any surface rust. I can look down the belt line and see no sag or droop.
Remove the panel, remove the rust, replace the panel? My best guess.
Jim
Most people don't try to repair those areas it is to much work they sell to Craylor for a few thousand and let him scrap it out.I have about reached that point on mine where they raised the roof and installed the double pane windows all the welds are broken loose if they were ever welded after 3 years work and many dollars I am calling it quits I am going to part the thing out and buying a RV. DAMN I hate defeat !!!!
I thought you had a Vantare or something.
Quote from: chessie4905 on May 17, 2019, 09:31:16 AM
I thought you had a Vantare or something.
Nope not now but headed that way again or a Newell
To make these repairs correctly, the bus needs to be straight before welding.
Propping the body in whatever places to get it straight.
Gussets to broken welds.
The DL flex going down the road.
Put your hand between a stick shift and the driver's modesty panel, over the bridge expansion joints, the stick moved fore and aft with the torsion...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Crap, that sounds aweful. When I get the floor out where exactly do I look for these problem areas? I would hate to come this far with purchasing two buses and call it quits.
Quote from: buswarrior on May 17, 2019, 11:04:30 AM
To make these repairs correctly, the bus needs to be straight before welding.
Propping the body in whatever places to get it straight.
Gussets to broken welds.
The DL flex going down the road.
Put your hand between a stick shift and the driver's modesty panel, over the bridge expansion joints, the stick moved fore and aft with the torsion...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Luvrbus
I hate to hear that. I enjoy reading your posts and your advice is excellent. If someone as knowledgeable as you calls it quits perhaps I am already to far into something I won't be able to manage. I remember reading a thread a while ago about someone who was considering quitting because of the problems he was having. I read all the encouragement this forum was giving him. Then I looked at his profile and he is still with it and that was years ago. I guess we just need to take it slow, take a brake when needed and tackle one thing at a time. I sure would hate to see you quit.
Jared
quote author=luvrbus link=topic=34009.msg390064#msg390064 date=1558100403]
Most people don't try to repair those areas it is to much work they sell to Craylor for a few thousand and let him scrap it out.I have about reached that point on mine where they raised the roof and installed the double pane windows all the welds are broken loose if they were ever welded after 3 years work and many dollars I am calling it quits I am going to part the thing out and buying a RV. DAMN I hate defeat !!!!
[/quote]
Busnut duty does not require Smithsonian level reconditioning, unless that is what drives you...
Open it up, see what you've got, patch 'er up and GO CAMPING.
Laying up the coach is deadly to morale, motivation and family support for this wild idea.
I repeat, GO CAMPING.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Here are a couple pics looking down the side of the bus at it's mid rail. It dosen't look like there is an arch, rather just a bulge outward where the skin is no longer fastened to the side. Of course there is rust behind that panel. I will just have to see when I take it apart. But it dosen't look like to me there is sagging or arching above the wheel area. What are your thoughts?
Quote from: thomasinnv on May 16, 2019, 01:31:05 PM
Jared, bulging/sagging sides is unfortunately a common occurance on the DL's. Stand at the front corner and look down the belt line and you will probably see an arch over the rear axles, signs of underlying structural damage and weakness. If the sides are bulging its a good indicator of underlying rust issues as others have said. When I was looking for a bus before I bought mine, I looked at several that I could put my hand through the sides by the rear axles. I paid more than I care to admit for my bus, but I felt comfortable doing so because after thorough close inspection the body appeared to be in excellent condition with barely even any surface rust. I can look down the belt line and see no sag or droop.
You might possibly have a frame member on the other side of that panel that's rusted and pushing out against it. Can you get a look at it from the inside? If you haven't gutted that section, get one of the endoscopes from Amazon for $30 and use it to poke around inside the wall.
when I got my mci the driver side had been repaired and the passenger side look great for about 5 years . then I noticed the bulge start and after about 1 year the rust started showing on the outside at the belt line . I cut about 6 " up from the belt line for about 5 ' and removed the outside panel . I found that there was a small amount of rust on the vertical frame and ground it off and used fluid film on it to stop the rust . I found that the bulge was more from dirt and crap that was pushing on the outside skin and the shitty foam insulation from mci . I cut out the foam and spray foamed the area . then I cut and welded in the 6" x 5' piece of 18 gauge satin coat galvanized steel and did some bondo and primer then I painted the area . then reinstalled the rubber belt line . after it was all done it looked great . never had any problems again . as this is what they did to repair it at the bus co on the other side years ago .
as I did it all myself the cost was only about $ 150
it's not the end of the world . get in and drive it
steel will always rust eventually just fix it and move on
dave
On mine, I'm not going to worry about it until I have to. I can see where the panel is being pushed out a little but there's no signs of any separation any time soon. I just wonder how feasible it'd be to detach the bottom seam, pull it out a bit and clean it up in behind the panel?
Jim
Jim
When I pull the panel off I will take a bunch of pics and post them. Perhaps the corrosion behind mine will be similar to yours.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on May 17, 2019, 05:31:12 PM
On mine, I'm not going to worry about it until I have to. I can see where the panel is being pushed out a little but there's no signs of any separation any time soon. I just wonder how feasible it'd be to detach the bottom seam, pull it out a bit and clean it up in behind the panel?
Jim
Ok, so I finally got around to pulling off the sign panel to see what was pushing it out. I was hoping it was something obvious. Let me just confirm that the panel is very heavy. Anyhow, I was surprised to see nothing that would make the panel buckle. No corrosion or trash that would push it out, so my best guess is there must be some structural damage underneath by the drive and tag axle and the bus is actually weak or sagging. Just like someone said. My question is, how do I find the problem and how do I fix the problem? Here are some pics of the buckle and what it looks like under the panel.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on May 17, 2019, 05:31:12 PM
On mine, I'm not going to worry about it until I have to. I can see where the panel is being pushed out a little but there's no signs of any separation any time soon. I just wonder how feasible it'd be to detach the bottom seam, pull it out a bit and clean it up in behind the panel?
Jim
I would suggest what your seeing is the outside metal is slowly being stretched by body flex into creating an oil can at the flex point. We saw this many times in my aviation career on airplanes. Unless you have definitive evidence if corrosion or rust, the best bet is to leave it alone unless your OCD gets the best of you. Oil canning skin on bus is not much more than unsightly. An airplane is another story......
If the coach, at some time in the past has backed or pulled into something, the panel above the wheel wells can bulge or buckle some, as that is the weakest point on the body.
Very likely the reason why I have some (very slight) bulges on mine above the wheels. Goes along with the damage to the rear bumper.
So here's another thing for you wannabees to watch out for. Good info to be fore-armed with when bus shopping.
Personally, I don't care. I was always a 'function over form' kinda guy anyway.
Jim
So the rear bumper is damaged so I am assuming that they were struck or backed into something. What would be the best way to fix this? If I cut a few inches off the length of the panel and reinstalled it would that solve the buckle?
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 12, 2019, 04:15:05 AM
If the coach, at some time in the past has backed or pulled into something, the panel above the wheel wells can bulge or buckle some, as that is the weakest point on the body.
Chain it to a loading dock and pull forward maybe? (The way we used to straighten bumpers back in the old days. Crude but effective.)
Seems pretty clear that my bus was backed into something at some point, and that they pulled the rear frame section back out to correct it. The section under the rear doors is not straight. It has some bends in it where it was apparently pulled back out in the middle. and the wear marks from the doors no longer line up. The way the rear bumper is faired in to the body doesn't look quite right either. But, the engine seems to be fine and the bulges over the rear wheels are only just visible. I'm pretty sure I'd do more harm than good trying to pull them back straight. But, I may give it a try some day.
Jim
I am thinking about skinning over the entire side of the bus rather than reinstalling the original side panels. THose original panels are super heavy. Anyhow, do you think if I install new panels they will develope the same buckle as before? when I remove the floor I plan on welding in some new steel to support the drive and the tag axle. What do you all think?
The thing that is really setting off alarms for me is the fact that you said ithas bulge on each side in the same place which makes me wonder if it took a hard enough lick to buckle it. Someone ,anyone is this possible??
Is there any way that you can run a laser down the length of the frame and take accurate measurements?
I was looking at mine last night and there's not enough bulging in the sign boards to ever worry about it, just a slight ripple in a couple of spots. No, not straight as a die but it's a 24 year old vehicle. That can be accepted. Yours I realize was much worse.
If you can find the space for it and accurately align a laser you should be able to set gage blocks on the frame at 3 or 4 points and just intersect the bottom edge of the beam at the same height all the way down the frame. That could tell you if there is any bow in the frame or not and give you a good bit of data to work from. It doesn't have to be anything too elaborate, for instance I have a cheap HF level that has a laser pointer built in.
Jim
That's a good idea. I would need to find a spot that is pretty level.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on July 14, 2019, 09:09:19 AM
Is there any way that you can run a laser down the length of the frame and take accurate measurements?
I was looking at mine last night and there's not enough bulging in the sign boards to ever worry about it, just a slight ripple in a couple of spots. No, not straight as a die but it's a 24 year old vehicle. That can be accepted. Yours I realize was much worse.
If you can find the space for it and accurately align a laser you should be able to set gage blocks on the frame at 3 or 4 points and just intersect the bottom edge of the beam at the same height all the way down the frame. That could tell you if there is any bow in the frame or not and give you a good bit of data to work from. It doesn't have to be anything too elaborate, for instance I have a cheap HF level that has a laser pointer built in.
Jim
Anyone know how to weld this stainless panel to the stainless frame? I would like to reuse the panel but not use the rivits that so often rust.
Quote from: luvrbus on May 16, 2019, 10:39:17 AM
The siding is stainless steel but a magnet will stick on a DL bus
Stainless steel rivets. Check Blyler river. I bought my Shave head style from them when I replaced front panel below headlamps.
How might you suggest I prop the bus up to get it straight? Is there a place specifically I should jack up? I believe John316 had a problem with his Dl3 and he sold it. I'm not sure what exactly his buses structure problem was but while my floor is out I want to take a close look at my buses foundation. Any suggestions on where to look?
Quote from: buswarrior on May 17, 2019, 11:04:30 AM
To make these repairs correctly, the bus needs to be straight before welding.
Propping the body in whatever places to get it straight.
Gussets to broken welds.
The DL flex going down the road.
Put your hand between a stick shift and the driver's modesty panel, over the bridge expansion joints, the stick moved fore and aft with the torsion...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Block and shim at each bulkhead to see if it will straighten out. You're using the weight of the coach to sag back straight before welding in your repair.
You have an idea where it is sagging, see what blocking that will do to your chosen line.
Adding gussets in more places than just the obvious was done by busnuts on earlier models, spread the strength out, the bending is accumulative to the break point.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
That is a great suggestion. I will block it up to see if I can get it straight. THere is not much sag at all but I will see what I can do. Derrick Thomas stopped in while passing through and he looked down the side. He didn't see much sag but the panel's were buckled either way. I tore the floor out this past weekend and I took some pics. It looks like the beams that run from front to back are in good shape. Just a little bit of surface rust but not a big deal. I will treat with rust converter and then prime it. However the short beams above the rear wheels that attach to the main center beam and go out to the sides of the bus are rusted through. I will need to replace those entirely. Here is a pic of the main beam.
Quote from: buswarrior on September 03, 2019, 07:50:29 PM
Block and shim at each bulkhead to see if it will straighten out. You're using the weight of the coach to sag back straight before welding in your repair.
You have an idea where it is sagging, see what blocking that will do to your chosen line.
Adding gussets in more places than just the obvious was done by busnuts on earlier models, spread the strength out, the bending is accumulative to the break point.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Here is some pics of the three or four beams that attach to the main beam and go out toward the side of the bus. These are directly over the wheel wells. When I pulled all the rust out to clean up the area it was very wet and damp inside those short beams. No wonder why it has huge holes rotted through.
My plan was to block the bus. Take the rear wheels off and weld in new beams to replace the ones that are rotted. Then I was planing on using 1/4 plate and weld it across the new beams to tie it all together. Then I will treat and prime it. Then my plan is to make some new wheel well shields out of stainless and see if I can seal up that area as best as possible so no moisture gets in. Then I will fill the cavity with closed cell spray foam to seal it some more. What are your thoughts?
The photos show rust in abundance. Do you think other areas might have similar corrosion? It might make sense to first understand the extent of the rust issues, then sort out various options.
You may want to have an eye to both front to back sag, and side to side.
I would be hesitant to fill the cavity with foam? Was it closed in from the factory? Drains in bottom? What happens if/when water gets in there, either through your repair or from above? Leaking window, plumbing failure, unseen gap or otherwise?
Would you be recreating the same problem as the stock assembly?
How long before it matters?
Tough decisions.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
The other places of rust is the other rear wheel well. The rest seams pretty solid. I will get a better look when I remove the rear tires to inspect.
Quote from: windtrader on September 04, 2019, 10:38:06 PM
The photos show rust in abundance. Do you think other areas might have similar corrosion? It might make sense to first understand the extent of the rust issues, then sort out various options.
Jcparmley
John's 316's Bus had a bad airbag support which when he sold it to Clifford he fixed it first thing. Its going to have a clawfoot tub in it some day soon for Cliffords wife. 8)
MCI DL 3 Bus. HTH
Dave, Jared's bus is a DL3 as well. Same as Cliff's.
I've been looking through my manual and I can't find a diagram of the floor structure. I want to see and identify the beams that need to be repaired. Does anyone know where there might be a diagram of the floor structure above the wheel wells on a MCI 102dl3?
In the older models, that sort of diagram was in the parts book.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Thanks. I found it in the parts manual. I guess I din't think to look for it there.
Quote from: buswarrior on September 06, 2019, 07:04:16 PM
In the older models, that sort of diagram was in the parts book.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior