Just bought a car from a guy who was selling off his late fathers estate. He asked if i knew anyone interested in a bus. Told him I was. Its a 1965 gmc spa5 with a gas engine and auto trans. Says lAnd cruiser from custom coach in Columbus. Shes pretty rusty but has a 12kw onan. Couldnt beat the price....free. what does anyone know about the spa5? Im not finding anything.
I'm no expert on old GM's, but it might be older than 1965. Maybe that is when it was converted. It looks like one of the Silverside models, it definitely has some style. You lucked out, I do believe. :D
It's a Flx not a GM
What Cliff said🙂
Bob
Titles wrong. That explains why nothing comes up when i google gm spa5
Cool looking bus Gary.
Jim
I think he's got one of the very early Custom Coach conversion buses done on Flxliner. Very cool. Too bad the interior was gutted, as there likely was still some salvageable hardware in there which could have helped rehab other CC buses.
http://www.sc4geography.net/flxliner/Custom.Coach.Flxiliner.html
The plot thickens.... went and found a data tag. It is a gm. For awhile I thought we had the wrong title. It sure looks like many of the flexibles in some ways. But check out the pic of the id tag. The rear is still largely intact. It is powered by a v6. Someone suggested calling custom coach for info. They are no longer in business, i thought. It appears the speedometer is broken. The mileage has only changed 57 miles since the guy before me bought the bus 10 years ago.
Try again on pics.
From the rear, I thought it looked like a Beck. But, the front view has me stumped.
Arthur
I don't think the tags belong to the bus but you can run the google on a GMC Superior Bus and see what you come up with the front looks like a Mexican Dina it does have a GMC 401 gasoline engine like the GMC Superior used
The double bumper is very Flxible like.
Check Flxiblne history. They were owned by GM at early times. Flxible made their own conversions and then turned it over to Custom Coach. It appears to be an early Flxliner without destination sign front, similar to the earlier model airporters. Here's some more info.
http://flxibleowners.org/history/
It's a Flx on the front or the Mexican Flx lol he may have a 1 of kind Johnny Cash type bus.to me the rear axle location.siding and front end says Flx
Has that ID tag been nailed on? Something looks wonky about the rivets. May be OK but generally that sort of thing tends to raise suspicions.
Jim
Quote from: bronson on April 28, 2019, 06:34:53 AM
...Someone suggested calling custom coach for info. They are no longer in business, i thought...
Custom Coach is still around - it's now part of Farber. https://www.farberspecialty.com/
They have a guy there that was connected with CC back in the day, and he's the one that sent me copies of the original design layout for mine. Send me a PM if you want his contact information. I'm sure that he'll be tickled to know that one of their original conversions is still around. He will be able to provide lots more information.
There is also a guy at Luxury Coach in Ohio that used to work for CC. He is also a wealth of information. I've got his contact information as well if you want.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 28, 2019, 07:47:15 AM
Has that ID tag been nailed on? Something looks wonky about the rivets. May be OK but generally that sort of thing tends to raise suspicions.
Jim
pop rivets are not used for the plates ,I think it is a model 223 FlxLiner because of the roof,back and the front with the taller windsheilds ,what type suspension is under the bus Torsion,airbags or leaf springs or a combination ?
I agree - something doesn't look correct about those plates. Looks like they've been removed and reinstalled. No telling where they came from. Interesting that they don't appear to show a model number. Anyone have resources to see what the GM serial number syntax is from?
My Flx guru said it is a model 223 Flx they had the option of a 401 GM or the 534 Ford for gasoline engines instead of diesel if you wanted gasoline that was the last Flx built for inter city passenger transportation , gasoline was cheap then you could not afford to run a 401 or 534 nowadays
This bus is sure providing a lot of entertainment as it sits, a real mystery. It looks like the oval plaque on the front is a FMCA one with a very low number of 1211. Contacting FMCA in Cincinnati might provide more info. Maybe the GM plate is the result of accident repairs to get the coach registered again after splicing in parts from donor buses. Lot's of Flxible fans in Ohio. It's worth something to the right person.
The FMCA oval belongs to a member in Payson AZ and is from a Newell (1966)
Well, it looks like the previous owner or owners felt free to borrow parts from other coaches.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on April 28, 2019, 09:19:07 AM
Well, it looks like the previous owner or owners felt free to borrow parts from other coaches.
All the rust I don't think that bus is a native to AZ
I'm guessing that the GM plates came with the drivetrain, and that somewhere there is a Flxible plate (or remnants of it) for the chassis/body.
I'm thinking the SPA5 on the registration means "special" construction.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on April 28, 2019, 09:07:39 AMThis bus is sure providing a lot of entertainment as it sits, a real mystery. ...
And if I didn't have one h**l of a lot more bus than I know what to do with already, I'd be offering good money for that shell.
Gave her a bath today with a little help from my son. She does have leaf spring suspension all around. Havent crawled under it yet.
I like the porthole windows, those are cool!
Jim
Still not a GM that one has a shady past for some reason that is a Flx lol nothing else
Quote from: luvrbus on April 28, 2019, 07:25:41 PM
Still not a GM that one has a shady past for some reason that is a Flx lol nothing else
Front end looks flx all the way through to me...
Bought this old coach or conversion with no title or engine. But had this old GMC medium duty truck that had a title and engine that should work. Careful transfer of serial number plate and apply for replacement title with some changes as a special construction or house car or motorhome. Used it for a little. Either lost interest or moved on to a newer or better conversion. Tried to sell it. No buyers. Parked it for years. Here it is! Free! SUCKER!!!!
The one question I have is...why no torsiolastics? It should have then unless this is the first model, before they changed to them. Or someone grafted Flxible assemblies to an old GMC coach or bus of some kind, hence the v6 GMC engine and spring suspension.
Quote from: chessie4905 on April 29, 2019, 04:03:26 AM
Bought this old coach or conversion with no title or engine. But had this old GMC medium duty truck that had a title and engine that should work. Careful transfer of serial number plate and apply for replacement title with some changes as a special construction or house car or motorhome. Used it for a little. Either lost interest or moved on to a newer or better conversion. Tried to sell it. No buyers. Parked it for years. Here it is! Free! SUCKER!!!!
That's one possibility, but since this is clearly an early Custom Coach conversion there's more to the story.
I had an old Jeep once, and the VIN was based on the engine's serial number. When I changed the original flathead 4-cyl to a OHV from a Ford Pinto I had to get the title updated. The state trooper did the inspection and then I could apply for the new title. The new number came up as a Ford, and they tried to get me to change the vehicle's registration from Jeep to Ford. These things can get messy through no fault of the owner.
Without knowing more about this particular situation it's really hard to know more than what we know. Hopefully the old-timers left from Custom Coach can shed some light on the confusion when Bronson makes contact with them. If that thing left their shop with those plates in there they should be able to explain, at least somewhat, how they got there.
Conversion doesn't matter Richard. The engine and spring suspension and plate doesn't add up regardless.
If you look up Wikipedia on Flxibles, Custom coach took over the conversion business from Flxible. Maybe if you do a query to the Flxible owner's club, someone there can explain it all.
Flxible was buying running gear from GM. He's confirmed that the bus has leaf springs, matching the one plate. Could Flxible have bought the complete chassis & gear from GM and then built their body around it? If so, then there should be another plate somewhere from Flxible. My stepvan has plates from both Ford (chassis) and from Grumman (body), each with their own VIN and other specs. Confuses the hell out of the DMV people, and I'm surprised it's got a correct title.
The Flx's with the old straight 8 Buick engines never had GM data plate ,I don't think GM had anything to do with a Flx chassis there is nothing on one that even looks like GM.If I recall A O Smith was building all of GM frames in that time frame
I think I'd have stamped that Jeep engine number on the frame rail in a conspicuous spot, thrown some lye on it for a day or two, brushed it off, hosed it down, let it sit for a week, wiped it with a grease rag, and left the title alone.
There wasn't much consistency in early vehicles and nobody alive today knows all the different ways they were identified. Might as well take advantage of that.
You might find someone somewhere who knows for sure what this thing is and how it got that way, but for sure it isn't going to be a state trooper. All you have to do there is pass muster, and to do that it only has to look legitimate. Frequently nobody really cares. But whether it's a Flx or a GM, it's a cool bus.
Jim
Have been communicating with Custom Coach. They responded with one that they thought it was and sent me the drawings. It wasnt the correct one. Hopefully they will dig up something.
As one with a couple of leaf spring Flxible's, I can confirm there is no GM data plate on them. It is my opinion/guess that a previous owner "updated" his old Fix with some newer Flx or Dina parts (nose & tail) and maybe some from other buses as well (front cap). Probably happened after the Custom Coach days. He could have aquired the coach without a title as a project and found that making up a model number was easier than arguing with DMV about reality. I'm guessing he found a data plate with no model number stamped and took advantage of it. I never see data plates with extra holes and new style pop rivets. Old buses have lots of rivets. Rarely would they be open pop style.
Hard to say on buses but on other vehicles pop rivets are pretty common on number plates. That by itself shouldn't be too suspicious. Also, some DMV's have been known in some cases to issue a number and sometimes even a plate to stamp it in, particularly in dealing with trailers. Wouldn't really be that much of a stretch. I'd think nails would be a different matter though.
I've also known of restorations where a 3rd party plate was ordered pre-stamped and pop riveted in place with new rivets. Long as the old plate was still available no questions were asked. Sorta like that Jeep, stash the old block behind the barn or in a shed in case anybody ever questioned it. Eventually of course that stuff all gets lost, but by then nobody cares anyway. Unless it's a Ferarri or something equally valuable.
Jim
Regardless if the bus had a Flx title it would sell for a lot more money as it stands now the bus has little value IMO
Would numbers be stamped anywhere else on the bus for identification?
Here is the closest thing that I have found, a 1967 Land Cruiser Motorhome built by Custom Coach. One big difference is that its built on a Ford Chassis. Front cap is the same, appears very similar on the outside. The GM data tag says motorhome on mine. here is the link
http://trombinoscar.com/camper/champion6701.html
There are numbers law enforcement uses when in doubt I find most of the time they are on the passenger's side usually at the rear so the officer is out of harms way when checking
Quote from: bronson on April 29, 2019, 12:26:56 PM
Here is the closest thing that I have found, a 1967 Land Cruiser Motorhome built by Custom Coach. One big difference is that its built on a Ford Chassis. Front cap is the same, appears very similar on the outside. The GM data tag says motorhome on mine. here is the link
http://trombinoscar.com/camper/champion6701.html
Not a Ford chassis just has the 534 Ford engine that was mention in a prior post .I know the owner of that one
My mistake, It says "This is a 1967 Champion Land Cruiser by Custom Coach Corporation. Custom Coach built this coach using a Champion Carriage chassis and Flxible front and rear caps. They did this because they wanted a coach with an air ride suspension. Flxible buses did not have air ride at the time. This one looks like a Flxible Hi-Level. This coach is powered by a 534cid. Ford industrial gasoline V8 and an Allison 6-speed automatic transmission.
Yea same chassis as the Carpenter flat nose school buses used I have one with a 534 Ford and Allison
Sounds like it's close, but didn't you say that yours has a spring suspension? That would eliminate the air suspension being the reason.
Have you talked to Jay yet? He was at Custom Coach during that time and may have some insight into what parts bins they were pulling from. He is also still in touch with one of the original owners of Custom Coach, who I think is in his 70s or 80s at this time. Perhaps he'd be willing to reach out and help solve the mystery.
The fact that you have a GM data plate leads me to believe that they used a GM chassis underneath, with Flxible coach body panels up above, and a Custom Coach interior.
GM never made a t drive pusher chassis except for the 4501 all he has is GM engine power and a gas hog lol
update. I have not heard back from Custom Coach since Monday but I did hear back from the GM archives. Here is what they say...
Thank you for contacting the GM Heritage Center.
Super looking vehicle! Are you restoring??
While we do not have an actual VIN decoder to share with you, I can provide you with some details.
The Serial number: SPA5019-N6173G
S = SCHOOL BUS
P = FORWARD CONTROL CHASSIS
A = AIR-HYDRAULIC OR STRAIGHT AIR BRAKES
50 = 5000 SERIES
It appears as though N6173G is the production/serial number but we do not have a way to decode that.
I found some information in the archive that outlines the information I provided above and am attaching for your reference.
Hope this helps.
Now I did a little reading in the pdf they sent. It does have forward controls and airbrakes. The wheel base in the pdf shows 227 inches, I measured 228 with my 9 yr old daughter on one end of the tape. It has the 478 GM engine that the vin says it should. The pdf says location of additional id tags are up to the body manufacturer. My data tag is not stamped with a delivery date. Coincidence??? I was able to get the onan running and it has output so that is a win. Needs a carb rebuild and complete service. Started on the bus engine. Was able to get power to everything and to starter but engine is stuck. Will be filling cylinders with pb blaster tomorrow.
Very exciting. So that means that you have a chassis built by GM, with a body by Flxible?
Still not sure what I have but it will be interesting to find out. Nowhere have I found anything that says Flxible and Cliff says GM never made a pusher chassis but I'm assuming P in the vin for forward control means rear engine pusher? Here is a 1965 School bus that is a GM and a pusher and 35 feet long.
http://www.bibletalk.com/history/bus/bus.htm
Have you been able to make contact with Jay yet? He may have some insight into what they were doing at Custom Coach in the earlier years.
Custom Coach was once connected with Flxible, so perhaps they used the GM chassis and then pulled body parts from their own parts bin?
If Jay can't answer the riddle, then maybe he can reach out to one of the older old-timers still left from CC to get clarity.
Very cool project, whatever it is.
Quote from: bronson on May 01, 2019, 06:35:37 PM
Still not sure what I have but it will be interesting to find out. Nowhere have I found anything that says Flxible and Cliff says GM never made a pusher chassis but I'm assuming P in the vin for forward control means rear engine pusher? Here is a 1965 School bus that is a GM and a pusher and 35 feet long.
http://www.bibletalk.com/history/bus/bus.htm
I heard that was a venture with Superior Bus as for the P I own a RV with a P chassis and it has a front engine,I always liked those GM engines they were design to bolt 2 together to make the V12 they would pull like crazy if you buy gasoline for 1 lol they came depending on the HP with anything from a 1 barrel carb to a 4 barrel carb
I called Jay but no answer and oddly it did not go to voicemail. Also messaged him but haven't heard back. I don't think the p in the spa of this vin designates a P -Series chassis
S = SCHOOL BUS
P = FORWARD CONTROL CHASSIS
A = AIR-HYDRAULIC OR STRAIGHT AIR BRAKES
Gary, there is a type of iodine that the Old Tractor guys use on stuck engines (a very common problem with those). I don't remember the exact name but if you can't find out my brother would know and I could call and ask him. Apparently they just fill the cylinder all the way up with it, let it sit for awhile (don't know how long) and it gets rid of the rust. Many tractors treated that way now run just fine and without oil burning problems. I've seen the results myself but never done it.
Jim
A mixture of Acetone and ATF is hard to beat plus if you can heat the engine with a block heater it makes it a lot easier ,those engines have a 5-1/4 inch bore it is going to take a lot of PB the spark plug location is a plus for filling the cylinders though
Actually it isn't.
But I get your meaning. If it isn't stuck too bad that may work. Some of those old tractors have been stuck for 50 years sitting out in the field and no amount of acetone and atf is going to do squat. That's when they break out the iodine.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on May 02, 2019, 08:25:23 AM
Actually it isn't.
But I get your meaning. If it isn't stuck too bad that may work. Some of those old tractors have been stuck for 50 years sitting out in the field and no amount of acetone and atf is going to do squat. That's when they break out the iodine.
Jim
Some of them break out the white vinegar too,the iodine are talking about is the chemical K1 iodine that is some nasty and expensive stuff
The cleaning grade Vinegar would be cheaper, and if you give it time, if will devour rust if it can reach it.
So I Spoke with Mike Middaugh who formerly worked for Custom Coach. He now owns a charter company near Columbus Ohio. He verified that mine is indeed on a gm chassis with a Wayne body and flxible front and rear caps. He said only 7 of these were built with automatic trans. They were called the versatile. Pretty cool to find out more info. Engine has been soaking with atf and acetone in the cylinders. Hope to fire up this weekend. Found this pic from 2008 on the bus. Looks like a storage area on the roof.
Try again
Nice that you finally have some answers. What a hodge-podge of parts that went into the bus. Hopefully you'll get it fired up and start making plans for it.
I see why Flxible got out of the conversion business.
Pretty cool. Nice to know some of the history, so it really is a pretty unique rig.
Jim