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So I am looking at putting a new engine/tranny combination in my bus,  I am researching the different types of allison transmissions.  I was wondering why the B500 is the bus tranny.  Is it the 6 speed overdrive?  Or the type of torque convertor?   
I could put in a 4000 HS truck tranny in just the same at this point.  I just need to run some ideas through the faithful bus community! ;D
The Allison 400 MH is designed for motorhomes, with unlimited GVW and up to 650 hp.  There are tons of allison trannys out there, I just need to narrow it down to the one I need.  From there I will decide whether to get a rebuild or just a takeout.


Hopefully it will mount behind a 12.7 liter 60 series, near 500 hp.

Thanks in advance!

The brochure I have says the B400 is rated 300 - 330 hp and 925 - 1000 lb-ft of torque.  The B500 is rated 420 - 550 hp and 1300 - 1700 ft-lbs of torque, which is probably why it's recommended behind the S60.  I think the B400 would be a good match for your 8V-71.  I'm trying to attach the brochure...

Any World Transmission would be waste of money behind a 8v71they don't have the power and torque to utilize the overdrives plus you are limited on the rear gearing on a Eagle your best bet is the 754 CR 5 speed. If you go with the 12.7 then use a B500 or the MH 4000
 

I am mostly trying to see the difference between the B500 and a truck transmission.  The truck tranny I am looking at right now is a 4000 HS highway series.

So lets compare the B500 vs 4000HS

B500: 6 speeds: Overdrive ratio: .64 in 6th:

4000HS: 6 speeds:  Overdrive ratio: .64 in 6th: 

Looking at the Allison Brochure they are exactly the same gear ratios throughout the 6 speeds.

So how is the B500 Special?

Edit:  I the 4000 Mh is similar to the 4000HS?


4000HS  http://www.powerforce.com/pdfs/transmissions/ds_pf_4000.pdf
B500  http://www.powerforce.com/PDFs/Transmissions/DS_PF_HT754CR.pdf

By using proprietary factory specifications, lean manufacturing procedures, genuine OEM parts, state-of-the-art test equipment, and proper final calibrations,

What is "lean manufacturing procedures"?...

It is a bullshit way of saying..."We're organized".  A few years ago, the manufacturing buzzword was "synergy".  Middle managers were always verbally trying to capture it when in the presence of an executive.

Reading between the lines of the product descriptions, the truck transmission is heavier duty, higher input torque specification, designed for heavier normal loads (80K plus) while the bus transmission is designed (although rated higher) for loads up to around 55Klbs and has shift pattern programming specifically suited to passenger comfort.  Fun to read the documents and try to decipher the actual from the marketing...  Certainly they recommend the 4000 for everything including bus and motorhome, while the B500 is definitely bus oriented.  They all use the same torque converters, again per the documentation.  I wonder what the actual physical differences inside the box are - I can imagine similarities but different clutch material specifications and what-not, as well as programming differences.  Or are they totally different transmissions?

Same case the B's are programed to shift easier with softer clutches that is why they don't last as long as the 4000 HD all buses come with the option of a 4000 or B500 the B500 is a 3000 dollar option on buses like a MCI or Prevost.I will try and post a photo of the applacation manual that tells all even the wiring harness and ECM is different on the 2 

Anytime a hyper powered Diesel truck needs an automatic (like a 16V-92TTA) they always use the HT740. You can't find a more reliable transmission then the mechanically operated HT740 (direct drive 4th-no overdrive). The HT754CR has the same starting 1st gear and same direct 5th. 2nd, 3rd, 4th are closer ratios for better climbing the hills-of which I don't think is necessary for our application.
I took out my 13spd single overdrive manual transmission (RTO14613A) (.86 overdrive) and replaced it with an HT740 with soft shift. The difference is, on a truck transmission you get 1st converter, 2nd converter then 2nd lockup torque converter continuous to 4th gear. On the soft shift between 2nd and 3rd, 3rd and 4th, the torque converter comes out of lockup during the shift then relocks up after the shift to make it a softer gear change.
I looked into the World transmissions and would have been $15,000 more! Stay with the tried and true HT740 and change the rear end if you don't like the top speed. Good Luck, TomC

Quote from: TomC on February 26, 2019, 11:06:31 AM
Anytime a hyper powered Diesel truck needs an automatic (like a 16V-92TTA) they always use the HT740. You can't find a more reliable transmission then the mechanically operated HT740 (direct drive 4th-no overdrive). The HT754CR has the same starting 1st gear and same direct 5th. 2nd, 3rd, 4th are closer ratios for better climbing the hills-of which I don't think is necessary for our application.
I took out my 13spd single overdrive manual transmission (RTO14613A) (.86 overdrive) and replaced it with an HT740 with soft shift. The difference is, on a truck transmission you get 1st converter, 2nd converter then 2nd lockup torque converter continuous to 4th gear. On the soft shift between 2nd and 3rd, 3rd and 4th, the torque converter comes out of lockup during the shift then relocks up after the shift to make it a softer gear change.
I looked into the World transmissions and would have been $15,000 more! Stay with the tried and true HT740 and change the rear end if you don't like the top speed. Good Luck, TomC
[/quote  He dosen't have a wide range of gearing on a Eagle with a dropbox 3:76 or a 3:38 is about all that is left out there now

How would the life expectancy of the HT740 compare to a B500 used in a transit coach with equal miles?  Would it be similar to the b500 and mh4000 comparison?  Most B500 equipped transit coaches I see have over 500k miles which makes me wonder about the transmission health.

500k the B500 is about to the end of it's life I have saw 1 that lasted 700k before though.If you can find a Allison PO2454EN application manual to down load it will clear up all your concerns about the different models of the World Transmissions I think the other for the 1 and 11 World is the PO2478EN manual,I know you can download from Allison but the fee is expensive,I have the hard copy   

Anyone know the typical life expectancy of the ht740?

Quote from: kinson on February 27, 2019, 06:37:26 AM
Anyone know the typical life expectancy of the ht740?

The old 740's were good for 1 to 1-1/2 million miles with a little TLC

Quote from: luvrbus on February 27, 2019, 07:46:36 AM



The old 740's were good for 1 to 1-1/2 million miles with a little TLC

Dayum!

The most difference in the 4000 and the B500 is the oil pan.  The 4000 oil pan is 2 in deeper than the B500.  I put a series 50 in my Eagle with the 740 transmission.  Had all the power I needed.  If I were doing it again I would use the Series 50 and the B400 transmission.  You will need to change the rear end to make it work, but there are lots of this combo on the market.  Make sure you don't get a EGR engine and get all the wiring and computers.
Jack

Quote from: luvrbus on February 26, 2019, 02:49:34 PM
500k the B500 is about to the end of it's life

So then what? Is it pretty straight forward to rebuild it or will I need to start shopping for a new one.

(Yeah, my bus has the B500 in it)

If you have all the specialty  tools required for Allisons it's not all that bad

So after studying the specs closer,  the B500 is 4 inches shorter then the 4000 series,  because the 4000 series has the PTO option.  So that makes my decision pretty easy, (B500) considering the small space in my eagle.  It looks like I will have a 24 inch drive shaft, same length as the old one with the 9 speed roadranger.

Quote from: blue_goose on February 28, 2019, 08:36:41 AM
  Make sure you don't get a EGR engine and get all the wiring and computers.
Jack

I am planning to (If all goes well!? ;D) buy a late 90s freight liner with the 12.7 60 series.  This will get me all the options,  cruise, jakes, fan clutch(?) etc.  This will also include a wiring harness and everything else I need. (hopefully  ::))

From there is should be fairly simple to do the engine swap.  (depends on your definition of simple, though!!)

I will have to make some sort of 40 foot harness to plug in the front and the back.

Quote from: TomC on February 26, 2019, 11:06:31 AM
Anytime a hyper powered Diesel truck needs an automatic (like a 16V-92TTA) they always use the HT740. You can't find a more reliable transmission then the mechanically operated HT740 (direct drive 4th-no overdrive). The HT754CR has the same starting 1st gear and same direct 5th. 2nd, 3rd, 4th are closer ratios for better climbing the hills-of which I don't think is necessary for our application.
I took out my 13spd single overdrive manual transmission (RTO14613A) (.86 overdrive) and replaced it with an HT740 with soft shift. The difference is, on a truck transmission you get 1st converter, 2nd converter then 2nd lockup torque converter continuous to 4th gear. On the soft shift between 2nd and 3rd, 3rd and 4th, the torque converter comes out of lockup during the shift then relocks up after the shift to make it a softer gear change.
I looked into the World transmissions and would have been $15,000 more! Stay with the tried and true HT740 and change the rear end if you don't like the top speed. Good Luck, TomC

Like Clifford said, I don't have a wide range of options on the dropbox.  Other wise I would look at the HT740, but to run 60mph it would be a little high RPMs for the 60 series with my rear end gearing.

Beware, After putting in a "world" tranny behind my Cummins it is not for the faint of heart. The harness between the touch pad and tcm is a twisted something or other wire. It is not bad if you can talk to the right people. I found a person to supply wiring and program tcm. So far so good, my engine is at the max for my tranny 3k--- model. I bought a new tranny after the 08 RV market crash. A couple grand to my door. Before that I had a 740 behind my electronic L10. I do like the World, sweet shifting but only running 5 speeds with 3.36 gears and 24.5 tires. I wish I had my 4.10 gears and 22 tires back now.

Using the HT740 with direct drive 4th gear and using 11R-24.5 rubber (476rpm), 3.76 gearing will give 1938rpm @ 65mph and 3.38 will give 1743rpm @ 65mph. Personally-not worth the nearly twice the money for the World transmission over the HT740. Good Luck, TomC

If he is using the 60 series, his cruise rpms should be more like 1400.

When using the term "Series 60", you have to indicate which vintage, when it comes to making these sorts of decisions.

Different years, the cruising sweet spot is at different RPM.

And the older B500 can't run slow enough for the newer engines, due to tranny lubrication issues.

The new Allison 6 speed autos cruise at a lovely 1000 rpm behind (in front of) a Volvo engine in the newest Prevost.

And older Series 60 and B500 wants to spin above 1600 or so IIRC.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Looking at a 93' Freightliner right now with 12.7 liter 60 series, set at 425 hp, a little over a million miles,  rebuild 330000 miles ago.  Fairly close to me, any thoughts?

'93 Freightliner will be an FLD120-good simple truck with simple wiring (no multi-plexing). At 330,000mi I would look at the bull gear, or just plainly replace it. But otherwise-good combination. What transmission? Good Luck, TomC

Quote from: TomC on March 02, 2019, 02:29:16 PM
What transmission?

Roadranger 10 speed, a good tranny but I need? want an automatic.

Looks like your on the way!

Which drop box ratio do you currently have?
You may only be able to use the 5th gear in a B500 at legal highway speeds?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

I think I have the 3:71 ratio... not sure how to verify that?

And yes, the road speed calculator indicated that 6th gear would get me to the neighbor hood of 115 mph...   ::) a little faster then I need to go.  But I have heard it is not a strange thing to lock out 6th gear?  Tell me if I'm wrong...


And, next tuesday is an auction with a bluebird for sale, also close to me.  It has the engine/tranny combination I'm looking for...  We'll see how much that goes for, It would save me from fabricating the 40 ft engine harness.  However, then I would have the shell on my hands :o

And no,  I'm NOT taking the bluebird and converting it! ;D ;D  I'm an Eagle Guy! ;)

I put a 6V92 and B400 in an eagle.  Had the transmission programmed 5 speed, but could shift to 6th by hitting mode button.  Had to be above 80 mph to not lug engine.   Didnt use it, except to play once in a while.  Nice setup.

Dick

been silent for awhile! I have a set up I bought from Dick E.  2000yr 60 series detroit W/10 spd eaton auto shift. Wasn't much of a challenge to make  it fit.  I guess my point is buy them as a matched unit. The challange of making a differant engine that is not same yr as trans and even differant series of the same model might not talk to each other.  Sorry new computer spell ck is going yet.  Make sure there are not restrictions such as crossmember to try to work around. Bob

Having a recent World Transmission-mainly one that allows down to 1,000rpm is a good choice for the Series 60. In a bus, that engine is lightly stressed and running at a slower speed is fuel savings.
Course, how long will it take you to make up the about $11,000 difference in fuel cost between the World Transmission (4000 series) and a HT740? This is the main reason I went with the HT740 on my truck conversion even though I took out a 13spd single overdrive (.86). With 3.55 gears and 11R-24.5 rubber, my 65mph cruise will be 1830rpm-right at the continuous rating for the Cat 3406B-and for that matter, all other truck engines too. Good Luck, TomC

One other-the 4000HS can be had with either the PTO or without PTO. The 4000RTS (Rugged Truck Service) naturally has PTO.

Tom I know you really like your HT740,  It is a good transmission, but like I said there is an old blue bird near me on auction next tuesday,  I would really like to buy that one, then I would have a paired engine and tranny.
2000 model, has 447000 miles.  If that one goes to high for me then I will go back to looking at trucks and try to mate a transmission to a 60 series. 

Yeah it would take a long time to make up the fuel costs with a B500,  but eagles will run 75 well, I don't mind running 75mph especially on I70 in kansas, it is straight and flat there.  An HT740 wouldn't let me do that.  I am keeping that option in my mind, but as plan B or C. ;)

Like others have said try to get the combo. My problem was I have one of the first Cumminins electronic engines "93" and a 200? Allison. They run on a different, not sure of the word-system.   

If you have a 3.36 rear in your coach I don't think you will get it past third gear.  I have a 4.10 in my coach and have to be 63 or more to get it in 6ht gear.  That is the reason I used the 740 when I changed the engine in my Eagle. 
Jack

If you want to run at 75, then the engine should be turning at least 1,400 in sixth. With .64 overdrive and 12R-22.5 rubber at 485rpm, that works out to be a 3.61 rear ratio. Good Luck, TomC

I thought I would let you guys know what happened on this.
Turned out I bought a bluebird LTC-40 (anyone know what that is?) with the 12.7 s60 and the allison B500 about 90 miles from home.  Bought it from a school so it has had fair maintenance, only problem was they left the master disconnect on so was completely dead when we got there.  On the way home we had no problem reaching 70mph so it I don't think I will be disappointed!  ;D

I already have the fun part done, pulling the engine and harness, now I have to figure out how to stuff it in the eagle! :-\

Quote from: kinson on February 27, 2019, 06:37:26 AM
Anyone know the typical life expectancy of the ht740?

They will outlast many a bus...and they pair perfectly with a 8v71. But I don't know the options with Eagle.

Looks like you got the tall valve cover. Jakes? Some B500's have the retarder, unlikely it'll have both though. Sounds like  a great find. Should be pretty easy the check the play on the bull gear while you're getting it ready to install.

Jim

Wait! Why not just convert the Bluebird? Aren't they almost equivalent to a coach?😋

Quote from: 6805eagleguy on March 03, 2019, 11:34:13 AM

Yeah it would take a long time to make up the fuel costs with a B500,  but eagles will run 75 well, I don't mind running 75mph especially on I70 in kansas, it is straight and flat there. An HT740 wouldn't let me do that.  I am keeping that option in my mind, but as plan B or C. ;)

I have the HT740. I have buried my speedo more than I should admit, and it runs to 85mph...smooth as silk.

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on April 25, 2019, 08:35:34 AM
Looks like you got the tall valve cover. Jakes? Some B500's have the retarder, unlikely it'll have both though. Sounds like  a great find. Should be pretty easy the check the play on the bull gear while you're getting it ready to install.

Jim

Yep Jim, I have the tall valve cover with Jake's on all 6 cylinder's.  With the Jake's on high they provide a very impressive reduction in forward progress, i won't miss the retarder, especially since I have never used one before...

Quote from: chessie4905 on April 25, 2019, 08:36:22 AM
Wait! Why not just convert the Bluebird? Aren't they almost equivalent to a coach?😋

Maybe they're close to a GM or MCI but nowhere close to an eagle.
I couldn't believe how much the c channel frame flexed as we were driving around town, no IFS and tiny little air bags made me glad for my eagle. :)

Quote from: daddysgirl on April 25, 2019, 09:29:30 AM
I have the HT740. I have buried my speedo more than I should admit, and it runs to 85mph...smooth as silk.

Wow! All you HT740 fans sure are persistent! ;D
What if I just wanted a world transmission ??? ::)

But too your 8v71 will run far over 2100 rpm which is what the S60 is governed at.

Ah well, I guess I'll never win...  :'(

Quote from: luvrbus on February 26, 2019, 02:49:34 PM
500k the B500 is about to the end of it's life I have saw 1 that lasted 700k before though.If you can find a Allison PO2454EN application manual to down load it will clear up all your concerns about the different models of the World Transmissions I think the other for the 1 and 11 World is the PO2478EN manual,I know you can download from Allison but the fee is expensive,I have the hard copy   

Is this what you're referencing?

They are more of a deluxe school bus. Cut one and it bleeds yellow.
Since it is already packaged with the B500, go with it. It should shift up and down smoother with electronic control, and you'll have enough other issues to deal with during the change. Already, you need to spend more money for jake system parts, different air cleaner, etc,etc. Would be nice if you would share your total cost for the change when you are done. It would help a lot for others to weigh the change for theirs.

If you need any help, that is the same setup the Eric Brown put in his Eagle.  You are going to love it.
Jack

The BLUEBIRD LTC was actually based on the WANDERLODGE not the school buses.
They sold the WANDERLODGE "division" in order to concentrate on school buses and with it went the LTC-40. However, the new owner couldn't make a go of it.
I have heard rather mixed things about the LTC-40 as a seated coach.

City of Houston ran some LTC Blue Birds I have a friend in Houston that sold his H-40 Prevost and bought one to convert,they were nice buses. When Complete Coach Works in CA purchased that division he was saddled with law suits from the past owners he just tossed in towel FWIW Prevost owned part of Blue Bird at that time ,They are a fine machine with 600 hp Cummins 

Quote from: chessie4905 on April 25, 2019, 11:33:21 AM
Already, you need to spend more money for jake system parts, different air cleaner, etc,etc.

what do you mean by "Jake system parts"?
So far my only cost has been the bus and my time.
Then the other main cost will be hoses of all types.
But: I am using a ton of parts off the bluebird including but not limited too:
Engine/ tranny
Entire wiring harness
Tires
Pantograph bay doors
Electric wipers
Charge air cooler
And some things I probably forgot. :-[
So it will turn out well I think
(Famous last words)
If y'all want to know I can share a close estimate of the price I a few months.

Jack, I have visited Eric's project page on EI many times, there are quite a few project threads with  engine conversions in them over there. Mine too, now!
I have not got the chance but would like to talk to Eric about his to, he is not to active on EI currently.

Yes, the LTC is the same as the wanderlodge some parts of the manual mention wanderlodge.

Cole Davenport is the only Eagle owner that solved the drop box and gearing with a Eagle with the bogie,he wasn't giving up the bogie axle so behind his 650 HP series 60 he used the 4000 with the drop box on the Allison Transmission it is a neat setup I have some photos some place

Sorry about comments on jake brake parts. That should go to a different poster.

In my 1973 eagle I have a DDECIV 12,7 with a 400mh tranny. I changed the rear gear to a 4:10. Shift to 6th gear is between 62-63 mph. At 65 mph rpm app 1340. 75 k miles so far with no problems. Fuel mileage beats the heck out of the 8-71 and 654 Allison.

You never hear much about him but the Eagle guys making the transition from the 2 stroke to the 4 stroke with the electronic transmission owe Hal StClair he started it back in the 90's when all he could buy was the 11.1 which later he installed a 12.7.Hal did all the ground work for us guys the gearing, motor mounts.wiring plus the cooling for the engine and inter cooler,Hal did make life easier for us lol I called on him many times

Eric, what series of yokes do you have on your driveshaft?

I had a TC10 (10) speed Allison I was going to use behind a series 60 in a Eagle and lost interest,it would have taken care of the gearing in a Eagle wish now I had kept it and the Eagle  8)