So I am getting to the point where I need to make some decision about floorplan and running electrical.
I am trying to decide if I want to run armored cable through the bays to feed my AC side, run conduit on the inside wall since I am framing it with 2x4 or running AC down the center channel. My OTR AC is out so that whole channel is open...with the exception of maybe the front AC line.
Is the marine 12/3 fine stranded really needed or is it just the premium choice? Would that apply if I am running conduit for all the runs?
DC/12v is going to run in a channel above the windows. AC low DC high...again fine stranded single wires?
Pics of your rides would be helpful... :)
You could consider uf underground rated wire. It has a tough outer cover that, frankly is a little bit of a pita to strip the ends but not majorly. Many demand stranded, but if wires are properly supported along the way, I havent seen actual issues of any significance. Let the flames begin.lol. You could use stranded thhn and enclose it in plastic or asphaultic loom. Thhn is available at Lowes and Home Depot. Consideration using other colors for the load carrying conductor, black, red,yellow,etc, except for neutral(white) and ground(green) if you have several circuits that are used for different purposes. I think most just use the black, white, bare or green though. For low voltage wiring, stranded conductors, colors and extra wires the length of coach for future updates/changes. If you encase these in plastic loom, get a different color loom to differentiate from AC loom if used for other wiring. Don't forget to allow a little slack. You can secure loom with Zip ties in tunnel. Make them snug but not so tight that they severely distort loom.
Not sure if armored cable necessary - might make it really difficult to run through the many tight spaces you will be running things. Perhaps for the leads going to the appliance itself, since that would be unsupported for a short bit, but even that seems like overkill. The majority of the cables are going to be secured to something which eliminates a lot of the stress on them. Those not fastened to a bulkhead or structure can be zip-tied together to make a strong bundle. Someone saw my work and asked if I owned stock in the zip-tie company - I'm not shy about using them and they do keep things neat and secure.
Invest in some good material to use to wrap/protect your harness as it pulls through bulkheads or around corners. Ours uses lots of heater hose for this, as well as something that looks like fire hose. They fed the lines through these before connecting, and then anchored things down tightly. This prevents the rub points that will become a failure in the future.
Ours has marine cable running throughout. Looks like romax but much more pliable and easy to run.
Whatever you use, be sure to run extra cables in various places for future expansion. At least a few DC runs going nose-to-tail, and at least a couple of 120v runs to each of the major junction points or access hatches.
Do you have pics of a post of your build by chance? :)
Also, is there a need for special ends to use outlets? I saw a youtube video when a guy used marine tinned stranded but he said the ends wont provide a solid connection in an outlet.
Suggestion on good crimpers. tools and hardware?
For the DC side run #10 wire to a terminal board for distribution at that area. For instance forward by driver's area, living room, kitchen, bathroom, and bedroom. You'll need 12V for additional items in the bays and engine compartment, I use a bus bar with multiple overcurrent devices (circuit breakers) in the overhead of the first bay near the battery bank.
With this system you know where your power source for every light, fan, etc without having to remember how you wired it.
Bill
Use switches and recepticles that clamp the wires instead of holding with screws. You could probably loop the wire ends for screws and apply solder to keep it from fraying, but I prefer the clamps instead.
Quote from: Bill B /bus on February 16, 2019, 10:11:00 AM
For the DC side run #10 wire to a terminal board for distribution at that area. For instance forward by driver's area, living room, kitchen, bathroom, and bedroom. You'll need 12V for additional items in the bays and engine compartment, I use a bus bar with multiple overcurrent devices (circuit breakers) in the overhead of the first bay near the battery bank.
With this system you know where your power source for every light, fan, etc without having to remember how you wired it.
Bill
Sorry Bill, you lost me. Pics maybe?
Quote from: chessie4905 on February 16, 2019, 10:13:31 AM
Use switches and recepticles that clamp the wires instead of holding with screws. You could probably loop the wire ends for screws and apply solder to keep it from fraying, but I prefer the clamps instead.
I like that idea better, is there any downside to those style outlets?
This wire is crazy expensive...
https://www.amazon.com/AWG-Triplex-Flat-Marine-Wire/dp/B01M8NWF7K/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1550341430&sr=8-12&keywords=marine%2Btinned%2Bfine%2Bstranded&th=1&psc=1
Quote from: Bill B /bus on February 16, 2019, 10:11:00 AM
For the DC side run #10 wire to a terminal board for distribution at that area. For instance forward by driver's area, living room, kitchen, bathroom, and bedroom. You'll need 12V for additional items in the bays and engine compartment, I use a bus bar with multiple overcurrent devices (circuit breakers) in the overhead of the first bay near the battery bank.
With this system you know where your power source for every light, fan, etc without having to remember how you wired it.
Bill
Bill - Do you mean mount these in each area vs a larger one in a central location?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01BV1MS1K/?coliid=I3GK1C1C4LCN7G&colid=18O78BGDAS6YV&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1
Lost a post to the nether regions...
I am a strong supporter of oversizing the circuits with potential for high current.
12 gauge for anywhere that a busnut is likely to try plugging in an electric heater, and for the HVAC.
As for how to connect to devices, see what the wire manufacturer says...
Good quality crimped connectors. Buy a ratcheting crimper and never look back.
I prefer to buy my electrical stuff at the big electric supply house, and pay whatever I have to pay. Name brand, expensive and ordered once.
Little risk of getting junk. I have quite a supply of internet sourced crap for the grandkid to play with now... simply dangerous...
Big box store stranded cable hardly counts as stranded...pretty big gauge of individual strands... defeats the purpose of using stranded.
So, you spend a few hundred dollars more on quality materials, heck, even over pay a few hundred more than some online source... In the end, so long as you've got quality goods, who cares?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I like the approach Buswarrior! I agree. I dont mind paying money for the right product is all..
Am I looking at the right type of stuff for the AC side here? 12/3? The wire I linked the right type?
If I go that route, would it be better to run conduit throughout? I am thinking the unions between the pipe and the boxes is stronger therefore removing chances of the wire bouncing around and causing issues.
Quote from: PNWorBUST72 on February 16, 2019, 11:24:38 AM
If I go that route, would it be better to run conduit throughout? I am thinking the unions between the pipe and the boxes is stronger therefore removing chances of the wire bouncing around and causing issues.
Not sure that conduit is necessary unless routing through an area that will see exposure to elements or at risk of damage. A well-planned wire chase on each side of the bus will be able to carry much of your 120v wiring. Try and plan for access at a later time - it will probably be necessary.
There are a few things about the Custom Coach electrical system that are questionable, but they did a great job of providing a way to get to the wires. May involve lots of screws and pulling a panel or two, but every stitch of wiring is accessible. They also used top quality cable and nearly 50 years later it's still in great condition.
***** THHN is not suitable for automotive use! *****
It uses a double layer cheap vinyl insulation and in an unprotected environment the outer clear layer will rapidly deteriorate and split off, leaving only the inner layer to insulate the wire. In addition, the individual strands are of a larger gage size making the wire less flexible and more prone to breakage from movement or vibration. THHN is intended for use in metallic conduit runs and in stationary equipment controls, not the harsh environment often encountered in automotive applications. Do yourself a favor and buy the correct wire. The cost is generally about the same for standard vinyl insulated automotive wire. Better still, use the cross-linked wire that has been a standard in OEM applications for the last 3 decades. It is more expensive but what costs more, better insulation or a fire?
Jim
If you enjoy using conduit, run enough for future expansion.
A wire chase, as noted, is easier.
Nobody plans to drive a screw into a cable... trim it too short... carve the insulation off at the quick...but everyone finds a way... whatever you choose, will you be able to pull out and replace the ruined conductor, or run enough spares?
Protection against rubbing thru the insulation in a vibrating vehicle is often done poorly by busnuts. Securing against movement and not burying the methods, so you can re and re is a trick.
Plans change, we forget something, new tech comes along... how resilient will your install be to changes?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
All the higher end motor homes like the Prevost.Newell and other are all wired with marine wire,My Eagle was wired with marine wire 22 years ago and I never had a problem, separate the DC from the AC side by running it on opposite sides of the bus it makes life easier
mine has 12 gauge marine wire to 20 amp plugs and breakers with terminal ends on the 20 amp house plug screws .
https://www.delcity.net/store/Heat-Shrink-Spade-Terminals/p_802017.h_792057.r_IF1003?mkwid=s&crid=38094426869&mp_kw=&mp_mt=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9o_j2aDB4AIVGY_ICh34WQb8EAQYBCABEgKg4PD_BwE
all dc is single marine wire ( tons and tons of it all with #ers at each junction point .
every wire has a wire loom on it so they can run the a/c and the dc wires in the same run channel
in 1/4 " and 1/2" and 3/4" again on every wire
http://www.elecdirect.com/loom-tubing/split-loom-tubing/769877-1-2-split-loom-tubing-polyethylene-black-250ft-split-loom-tubing-provides-wire-and-cable-assemblies-protection-in-environments-up-to-200f
you will always need more wire runs so if you can run extra or make it so you can add more with out ripping to many things out
on the M C I I ran crown molding front to back on each side and could remove the sections at any time to add new stuff with out to much trouble . and I did a lot
dave
dave
I am planning a chase on the top of the windows for the 12v/DC stuff..but I dont have plans inside the coach for an AC chase. I was just going to run it up from the bays or through the compartments under the sub floor.
I may be changing my plans to frame out the walls once I realized I will lose 4.5 inches total on the inside of the coach once I add the bead board we want to use.
If that happens its gonna have to come from underneath OR I need to make an AC chase too. I could just use one side of the top chase for DC and the other for AC. Agains, pics would be helpful to show these chases. :)
Link to the right marine wire if the one I linked wont work would be great too.
Might be a good idea to find a GOOD local electrical supply house. Get friendly with the counter guy. If you buy from them in quantity, you should be able to get a decent price and they'll help you get the proper stuff. Always a good idea to have an electrical supply house on your speed dial.
How many have ACTUALLY had non marine wire fail? This fine stranded wire business is way over blown, unless it is in a location where there is constant flexing like a car door hinge area. If wire is properly secured, you wont have problems.diyw though.
Fyi... https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2013/09/16/if-the-nylon-on-thhn-is-scuffed-is-the-insulation-damaged/
Romex has been the standard in RV's for years still is today,rarely does it break if secured you see RV's from the 60's still chugging along with Romex with the mickey mouse switches and plugs
I never had a problem in the 10 years I owned it on the M C I and I just used the reg . stuff from the big box stores
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-250-ft-14-2-Solid-Romex-SIMpull-CU-NM-B-W-G-Wire-2-Pack-28827458/206647951?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CG%7CVF%7CD27E%7C27-4_WIRE%7CNA%7CPLA%7c71700000033102394%7c58700003868933539%7c92700031090662076&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsZTR5f_C4AIVGYGzCh2ANQ2GEAQYASABEgIRbfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
so you can see in the pics the crown molding at the ceiling . they come off in sections and I added wires as I needed them most were 12 v wires . the 120 v wires ran along the floor against the wall under the cabinets with 12 v wiring and pex as well . I only used 3/4" ply to make and partitions zero 2x4s as they take up to much room .and most partitions were backed up with cabinets on each side for strength
I learned a lesson when I built the M C I never spend a lot as when I sold it 10 years later I got 50 cents on the dollar for it and thought that was a good price
dave
Delcity sells the cross linked wire (I think what you guys are referring to as marine wire probably) GXL, TXL, and another grade that is the medium thickness insulation. This stuff is vastly superior to any vinyl or pvc insulation and will go for decades without losing pliability and elasticity whereas vinyl will begin to crack in less than 5 years. As for the nylon jacket on THHN, that's just nearly useless for anything other than scuff resistance and when it's gone the pvc insulation below it is very thin. Nylon also absorbs water, an entirely new category of reasons not to use it in a bus. The inner pvc insulation isn't the most durable plastic around. Fine for what it's designed for but that isn't automotive use. For a bunch that as a whole are admirably concerned with excuses insurance companies can use to deny claims, why would you throw this one right in their face? If you use the right wire in the first place you can pretty much forget about it. If you didn't, hopefully you supported it in such a way that it'll never short out but if it's THHN you will notice over time that the clear jacket begins to split and peel off the ends where the wires are terminated. That may not be a problem but it does look messy.
Jim
Marine wire is tinned for corrosion it's not a cross linked wire,and use marine connectors and it's there for ever in a bus
My coach has an L shaped space for indirect lighting on both arcs of the length of the interior (except the bath/dressing area)
88% of my wiring runs in it. never need to remove anything to access or add.
what isn't in there runs thru the AC ducts which are (basically),the arc of the roof and the framed backside of cabinetry).
20+ years in, no faults or rubs nor wear.
That's nice. How did you construct those if you don't mind me asking?
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on February 19, 2019, 12:56:41 PM
That's nice. How did you construct those if you don't mind me asking?
I did not.
But they are radius corner mold and birch ply with fabric
Glue and staples.
Outfit in Arizona did then in 1997-8.
like this but straight nor turned.
All totaled there is maybe 100+ ft. of it in the coach.
the vertical wall corners are the same stuff.
A pocket door lands on that one.
the walls are fabric with Formica clad birch ply.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frogturning.com%2Fyahoo_site_admin%2Fassets%2Fimages%2Fmc5.196142137_std.JPG&hash=61f5542cead0f840c25afa4c8f1d6738a12caecc)
these are MDF, mine are Ash or Poplar.
https://www.woodworkerexpress.com/radiusl-molding-2-radiusx97l-made-of-mdf-accepts-3-4-panel-size.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_search&utm_campaign=google_product_ads&source=googlebase&country=US&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1KmQpajJ4AIVAlcMCh2mKQa6EAQYBSABEgJtg_D_BwE
(https://www.woodworkerexpress.com/radiusl-molding-2-radiusx97l-made-of-mdf-accepts-3-4-panel-size.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product_search&utm_campaign=google_product_ads&source=googlebase&country=US&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1KmQpajJ4AIVAlcMCh2mKQa6EAQYBSABEgJtg_D_BwE)
Jim