There will be other opinions on their views, but good info on each brand and engine series. May be useful to some looking for a coach or conversion.
https://www.capitalremanexchange.com/best-diesel-engine-list/
"Worst Detroit Engine: All old two-stroke Series 50, V-71 or V-92, technology. "
Hurt my old bus's feeling. :'(
Yes the 2 stroke Detroits are past their prime. But-that's mainly because no technology was used to upgrade them. I can imagine what the engines would be like with electronic common rail fuel injection.
Strange though how 2 stroke Detroits have been cast aside as being the dirty engines. Yet virtually all big freighter ships carrying overseas containers use giant 2 stroke Diesels of the basic same design principal as the old Detroits. But of course they are much bigger. So instead of a 4.25" bore (71 series) or a 4.85" bore (92 series) with a 5" stroke, the biggest series has a 39" bore by a 135" stroke (yes over 11ft!)-but only turns 82 rpm. 82rpm on the large engine is like our 5" stroke engines turning 2,214rpm-piston speed wise. Good Luck, TomC
Methodology for arriving at conclusions?
However, for those with low blood pressure problems, it is a good read to get yer blood pressure up?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
The two cycle is being phased out in locomotives also. Although Norfolk Southern is adding new life by upgrading the amount of emissions generated. Probably also done by other railroads and companies as well. Now that Caterpiller owns EMD locomotives, their interest is in using four cycle engines in future models. Who knows what will happen with GE locomotive business.
Detroit two cycle engines will always have their place in history, but technology moves on..their eventual demise hasn't been helped by political crusades either.
Being that CUMMINS is standard in most MCI buses now, that says a lot.
It never crossed my mind that I own stock in them:)
The old DETROIT 2 strokes were pretty much indestructible for just about forever and no mistaken the sounds.
I wonder if this new experimental opposes piston engine will find its way to buses.
When did a series 50 become a 2 stroke
Just wondering
uncle ned
Perhaps he meant 53.
GE sold their locomotive business last year and I think it's called WABTECH or something to that effect.
Quote from: buswarrior on February 13, 2019, 07:41:29 AM
Methodology for arriving at conclusions?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I would say the methodology involved a younger less experienced person, a lack of research into the history of the engines, and preoccupation with the cost and ease of overhauling current engines. Mack engines were not given enough credit for the older models, and Detroit 2 cycles were not given the credit they deserve in history. They predominately powered the winning side of WWII, and no engine has ever sounded better, in my opinion. The CAT 3406, Cummins Big Cam, Detroit Series 60, and the DT466 deserve credit alright, but not at the expense of dissing 2cycles. :(
They are just speaking about a electronic engine they way I read it the 3406 -425 hp IMO was the best ever made the first million mile engine built, the driver could not hurt that engine lug it down to 900 rpm press the pedal when the smoke cleared you were off to races
I like the fact that when I lost an alternator pulley on a trip I finished the 1500 mile leg of that trip just by running during the day and charging the battery at night. My engine doesn't need electricity after it's running. There is a side of me that really likes that. I just ditched my pickup with a Powerstroke diesel and in the spring I'm going to look for an Arizona pickup with a regular cab, a long bed and a carburetor... Straight six and three on the tree bonus points! Clifford, you got one of those? :)
Many would contend that NAVISTAR built the best diesels.
That had much credibility many years ago but how times have changed.
The FORD/POWERSTROKE issue was just one of the laughing points.
KME offered MAXFORCE engines in their apparatus about 15 years ago.
They were out of service so often that depts. who actually ordered those lousy engines sued.
Needless to say, it appears that NAVISTAR is getting out of the engine business since they offer CUMMINS engines on their skoolies for diesels and PSI for their gasoline and propane models.
I love my 3406 e ;D ;D 8)
dave
The cost of certifying engines to meet current and future emission standards has winnowed out to only the manufacturers with deep pockets.
Well if you build lousy engines, your pockets won't get very deep.
If we were all corporate accountants we would choose the engine that made the most financial sense and had the best ROI, but we're not, so we don't. We choose, or at least tolerate, engines that may make little rational sense, but they instead feed our soul and make this crazy hobby worthwhile. Obviously an ancient 2-stroke design makes little sense these days, but what's the fun in listening to some bland anodyne 4-stroke that sounds like a household appliance? The wail of an angry 2-stroke is addictive, and for me is worth one or two MPG - I don't and won't ever drive big mileages, so a few bucks extra of diesel each trip is worth it to me to hear a Detroit singing its happy song. I grew up hearing Commer TS3 and Foden 2-strokes and spent many a mile behind Napier Deltics, so having my very own 2-stroke now is a well-deserved indulgence.
John
Quote from: CrabbyMilton on February 13, 2019, 05:24:25 PM
Well if you build lousy engines, your pockets won't get very deep.
LOL some of the crap engines Cummins made over the years dipped deep into their pockets
I don't disagree.
They had some really horrible bus engines that were either plagued with quality problems or they were too big and heavy for buses.
The V903 had vibration problems which was unusual being that it was a V8.
And Cummins still makes the VTA903 for the military. Tanks like the Bradley and others only can use the 903. Good Luck, TomC
I had a 903 in a "10 ton" Army tank retriever that hauled 60 ton tanks. It did not have the horsepower of many of the current engines, but with the low gearing and 6 X 6 drive, it pulled well. I loved the dual exhaust that came out horizontally just ahead of the drive wheels. When I went through toll booths in Chicago it would fill up the booths with smoke if they did not close their doors. The only thing cooler would have been a Detroit 2 cycle V12 (the best harmonics). 8)
For me, the best diesel engine is the one that is in great condition & is in my coach. ;D
So if my 350HP 6V92TA gets 8 mpg, and a new Cummins engine gets 8 mpg, how am I a bigger polluter? You can tell by my exhaust smell it is running clean.
Quote from: Geoff on February 17, 2019, 11:38:56 AM
So if my 350HP 6V92TA gets 8 mpg, and a new Cummins engine gets 8 mpg, how am I a bigger polluter? You can tell by my exhaust smell it is running clean.
HP to weight I doubt a 6v92 with 350 hp would even move a D4500 MCI once out 1st gear
It may be running "clean" but nox and particulate matter will choke out the people living in Ca.
I like how the newer engines run so clean, however I can't see how the Regen part is good.Ever get behind a truck that is going through it's cycle? It's enough to choke you out even a mile behind the vehicle for 5 or 10 minutes. Have they factored THAT pollution into the overall benefit?
Well, my 3116 Cat also made their "worst" list. You don't need to have $5000 worth of special tools to set fuel timing, if you know how to read measuring tools and understand what you are reading.
Although a boat forum, lots of interesting info on this engine:
https://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/165863-opinions-cat-3116-diesels.html
The 3116 is not much it was Cat's pink elephant
Quote from: luvrbus on February 17, 2019, 12:08:59 PM
HP to weight I doubt a 6v92 with 350 hp would even move a D4500 MCI once out 1st gear
Well, it won't move it as quickly, but it will go through the gears. It was not all that long ago that freight outfits had 220, 250, 270 hp Cummins powering tractor trailers. 350 hp was hot stuff when I had a dump trailer with an Autocar grossing 100,000 lbs. It's all relative. A Mack 300 in a ten wheel dump was super (in the eighties). :o
Not anywhere big enough for a bus, but the Cummins 4BT in my step van is a rock solid engine. Purely mechanical, with just one wire to run the fuel solenoid. Could do away with the one wire if I installed a cable. It's got a gazzillion miles on it and still runs strong.
My work truck is a 1976 Grumman 1-ton step van. The smog components are a pcv valve and an air pump into each clyinder at the headers. I don't mind the pcv valve, but the concept of pumping in outside air into your exhaust to make the tailpipe readings cleaner is ridiculous.
It was actually beneicial at the time. But I removed the system from my car and plugged the holes left in the exhaust manifold.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_air_injection
Geoff-How'ya Doin? The purpose of the air pump pumping air to each cylinder at the exhaust manifold is to introduce extra clean air that will actually burn excess hydrocarbons off in the manifold. That's why sometimes you get a gurggling sound coming off the exhaust-it's the raw gases igniting in the exhaust pipe. Good Luck, TomC