https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemID=59&acctID=7500 (https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemID=59&acctID=7500)Quote1989 Crown School Bus, Detroit 671T, 10-speed manual. Was a great running bus. Engine is not CARB compliant and we had to destroy the engine by putting a hole in the block.
First I've seen that one. My hunch is that some agency got a bit over anxious on this one and decided to kill the engine like that rather than deal with some paperwork to document an out of state sale. They've got to know that they've destroyed the value of the bus, more or less, depending on where the hole was put into the block.
Ok - now that I've seen the photos I'm going to guess the engine is a goner. Too bad, as many of these find good homes outside of CA.
Military surplus has done stuff like that for decades. They cut Vietnam era jeeps (M151A1) into four sections to prevent their use because of their flip-ability, even though they were okay for the military to use for some time. I have seen Detroit 2 cycle engines and transmissions beat with a sledge hammer to prevent use. Absolute mindless destruction of good and useful equipment. They even pushed good helicopters off ships into the ocean after they evacuated people from Vietnam. :(
They pushed the choppers off so that they could get more people on board.
I need more information before being able to really make a judgement on this. The only data we have is what was in the listing. I'm sure that someone felt they had to destroy the engine, and I'm sure that they had some reason for doing so.
What I'm not sure about is if their reason was sound. Lots of buses are going for sale in CA for purchase and use in other states/countries. I highly doubt that the state has told owners of all buses to destroy them and/or remove their value totally. That would put the situation in one of a regulatory taking, and the owners of the vehicles would be entitled to compensation.
I'll try to find some more facts about this, but I don't know what I'll actually be able to find among all the chatter out there.
Engines in CA for non RV need to be CARB compliance, my friend at ACME in Stockton cuts holes in blocks up to the year of 2003 Cats,Cummins and Detroit if you replace a old 2 stroke it has to be a newer CARB compliance engine and the 2010 CARB engine or newer
From my initial look at the CA regs, the municipality had the choice to scrap or to retire. They chose to go the route of scrapping by destroying the engine. They could have done a VIN stop and then sold the vehicle in good working order to anyone outside of California. A little more paperwork, but the return could have been a higher sales price. Can't say what the reasoning was that this municipality went this route, but I'm guessing that it was easier for someone.
Rules for re-powering a vehicle with a newer engine are different and require the pulled engine to be handled according to specific rules. Destroying the block is an option when fulfilling these rules.
Perhaps the municipality in this situation confused the two?
If a CA school district gets a grant to replace a bus, the old bus must be destroyed, no exceptions. This is CARB's ruling. The only buses that escape the crusher are those not being replaced or not owned by school districts. This is yet another example of government bureaucracy gone mad. CARB is not elected, and there are precious few checks and balances to what they do. So much for democracy.
Crowns are capable of many decades of good service, so to destroy one instead of repowering it makes no sense at all. The horrid crappy disposabuses that replace them are made to last only a decade or so before they self-destruct, then another has to bought to replace it in an endless cycle of planned obsolescence and squandering of resources. Crowns had a 20-year warranty - what other bus these days is even close to that?
John
Our GMC is 66 years young & running strong!
I love my 2 strokes but they have always been a nasty engine for emissions even when not blowing smoke they are still nasty if it wasn't for the emission they would still be around.Texas is getting as bad as CA they are replacing the Detroits in boats and generators,Az is the same all the mines here are replacing the 2 strokes.they are gone in the military too it's sad but the 79 year old engine is dying at a fast rate now
Quote from: luvrbus on February 07, 2019, 07:51:08 AM
Texas is getting as bad as CA they are replacing the Detroits in boats and generators,Az is the same all the mines here are replacing the 2 strokes.they are gone in the military too it's sad but the 79 year old engine is dying at a fast rate now
Second sadly.
Reality is these old 2 stroke diesel buses are antiques and nearly any fix is no longer a repair but a restoration project. Efforts and frustration obtaining parts and service only increase as the fleet of operating old diesels shrinks. Adding to the demise is the liquidation of those few remaining caches of old bus parts like that yard in OK.
Yeah you can expect to start having problems when the newest ones are approaching 25 years old and therefore fairly called antique engines. There is a period there where they become more valuable as scrap before scarcity begins to bring the value back up. But then the cost can also go up when that happens. Hard to win at this game.
Jim
Sounds like you guys are trying to get rid of the sport. Why not be positive and enjoy what you have. Why did we get into doing a conversion, To enjoy it and drive around in our country, meet people and have some fun. If those are not why you have one I would suggest you sell it and do something else.
Be careful what you wish for. Some here just keep bringing up what California CARB says and 2 strokes. I live here and can't care less what they say. I know for a fact that the CARB rules do not apply to our Conversions so it doesn't matter.
Someday it might but that day is not here yet so just flippin enjoy it. >:(
I hear CARB is working on limiting the miles driven for RV's with 2 strokes like antique vehicle's but one never knows with CARB lol Ralph Nader and CARB not much difference in the 2
DITTO on what Dave said & we don't even live there! Kudos to you Dave for laying it out point blank. Too much dissection. That's what happens when the bus sits & the owner mulls over it. Getting at the wheel & doing what it was designed to do will not only help the bus but its owner too! Don't ask us how we know that but we'll give you a hint - we're headed back to Alaska this spring... ;) Reach into your bucket list AND DO IT! Rant over...
The reason for posting was primarily to keep prospective buyers of a potentially black hole if buying a used old bus in CA. The details of the regulations are quite complex so it is critical if someone is thinking about converting an older 2 stroke or even early '95 4 strokes to really know what pitfalls may lay ahead.
Much of this is a CA specific concern as I know some of these buses were sold out of state to avoid the legal mess here.
Anyone who has a bus that is already converted and registered as an RV in CA is home free.
Fill 'er up and go take a drive. lol
Like RJ said there ya go overthinking again!... ;)
At least California isn't trying to make Magic Mushrooms legal like Arizona and Oregon, LOL Won't they be fun to deal with on the road... ;)
LOL I think the wacky weed one can buy at 7/11 in CA is more of a danger than mushrooms we get so much heat and sunlight in AZ I never saw a mushroom growing in the Valley 8)
Quote from: luvrbus on February 08, 2019, 07:54:30 AM
LOL I think the wacky weed one can buy at 7/11 in CA is more of a danger than mushrooms
Especially that "SOUR DIESEL" Man that will put a hurtin on ya!
https://youtu.be/D8aQ04dyRAM
If a bus or truck company has replaced their old equipment with new equipment with the help of a government grant, they by the wording of the grant have to destroy the engine that the government paid to replace. When I was working at L.A. Freightliner, I took several trucks with perfectly good pre 2007 Series 60's to the junk yard to be scrapped.
Still if you have an Diesel RV in California, you're exempt from smog laws, period. Strange though, if you have a gasoline powered anything, you're also exempt-even though a non smog controlled gasoline engine will put out way more emissions than a Diesel. Good Luck, TomC
I thought all vehicle gasoline engines in CA had to be smogged back to the year 1976.
@Dave/RJ - Where is the switch to turn off firing of brain cells, my rotor? At least in CA, one can find relief in stuff like Sour Diesel - trust me, staying sane in this state requires plenty of pills or pot. lol
@Tom - Your position on how that aspect of the law works makes 100% sense. Not long ago, Geoff pointed out some nice buses being sold off by a local Bay Area intra-county transit agency and there were restrictions on their disposition. In that case, engines remained operational but there were strings attached.
In this case, the school bus was likely public funded so got the death sentence. It would be interesting to know if the same rule applies to 3rd party bus charter companies that contract with school districts for bus service.
Yeah, I'm bored as hell and freezing here, it almost got to freezing this week. Time to get the bus on the road for sure. lol
Yes, the MCI D buses that went for $8k each at auction. I have bought CARB non-compliant at that auction, and you have to have a bill of lading "proving" they will not be driven in CA.
I don't care oneway or the other but do understand what Don is saying,I have had to repair old buses where the CA troppers other police agencies have issued owners the repair tickets sure the older 2 strokes are smog exempt but if you have a smoking engine and a cop is having a bad day he can ticket you or tow you they do it to automobiles too and they don't care which state you are from.FWIW 2 strokes in RV's are not smog exempt in certain counties in AZ we just have 13 counties in Az
We don't have troopers here. Highway Patrol, LOL and finally something that is not made up. Yes they will pull you over if you are smoking to much and in California these days that can be easy to spot because they are driving to slow and laughing, LOL :)
There has been an "excessive exhaust smoke" violation in the California vehicle code for as long as I can remember, and that is going back into the 1950's. It is wide open to interpretation.
Excessive exhaust smoke...I wonder how the Mack trucks dealt with it? They used to smoke way worse than Detroit's ever did.
Quote from: chessie4905 on February 09, 2019, 04:58:31 AM
Excessive exhaust smoke...I wonder how the Mack trucks dealt with it? They used to smoke way worse than Detroit's ever did.
Cat's did too and CA would pull you in to do a test lol and they wouldn't smoke with CA flash test with no load
Quote from: chessie4905 on February 09, 2019, 04:58:31 AM
Excessive exhaust smoke...I wonder how the Mack trucks dealt with it? They used to smoke way worse than Detroit's ever did.
Worked for a company years ago that ran old retired Roadway LJ'S Smokingest things I ever seen ! One that we had would smoke so bad every time you "grabbed" another gear it would be three minutes before you could see the tractor again but you could not destroy those things!!
Quote from: luvrbus on February 08, 2019, 07:54:30 AM
LOL I think the wacky weed one can buy at 7/11 in CA is more of a danger than mushrooms we get so much heat and sunlight in AZ I never saw a mushroom growing in the Valley 8)
Clifford, LOL they don't sell weed here in 7-11's funny guy And wrong on mushrooms. These are grown in Cow poop and make people nutcakes. Been around for years and now some states are trying to make them legal and not Cali, Ha ha ha
Let us not forget the peyote cactus flower!
Quote from: windtrader on February 07, 2019, 11:19:17 AM
Second sadly.
Reality is these old 2 stroke diesel buses are antiques and nearly any fix is no longer a repair but a restoration project. Efforts and frustration obtaining parts and service only increase as the fleet of operating old diesels shrinks. Adding to the demise is the liquidation of those few remaining caches of old bus parts like that yard in OK.
not rude, a compliment.
If Scott, who was razzed out of here...
can rebuild one anyone can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIsiRXaw5yY&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1qw_C3PQUrHb0iRgcSbM0cdeYUfQaoIIk3r5IyA29dN20z2TDmIwESwqU
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIsiRXaw5yY&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1qw_C3PQUrHb0iRgcSbM0cdeYUfQaoIIk3r5IyA29dN20z2TDmIwESwqU)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fztenYzMI34 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fztenYzMI34)
To destroy $#!% like that is a [$#!%] crime! California is screwing the whole rest of North America with their unrealistic draconian fantasy laws. A properly tuned and driven Detroit will hardly bring any attention to it's self. [$#!%] California!!!
DITTO! >:(
For those who don't like CARB here is a website where you can complain or maybe help out. :)
http://killcarb.org/
where do you bitch abut this BS, Dave?
QuoteCalifornia Will Require Solar Power for New Homes
CA now forcing solar on every new house, just to make sure homes prices here stay in the ozone layer.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/09/business/energy-environment/california-solar-power.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/09/business/energy-environment/california-solar-power.html)
We are going to need all the solar we can get, once the national fleet goes to all electric.
I don't care for some CA laws but it is a beautiful state that offers a lot and people want to live there and it's over populated hence all the laws for environment some good some not so good IMO.Every time I go to CA I think 1/2 the cars made in the world use the 405 8)
Clifford, LOL not the 405 they now use 420, lol Ask Van and Don for clarification.... ;)
Don IDK where but if you find out let me know, LOL for years I tried and complained to my Niece which is the state historian and did not do any good. So I gave up and just live here.
Heck I start a fire on the ranch in the burn pile and the darn Fire Department shows up and puts it out then they tell me it not a burn day. So now I just wait till they show up to find out if it is or isn't one. :)
We'd been calling into the National Forest Service for 36 years now when we want to burn. We have a customer number they ask for then if burning is ok (no drought, dry conditions, windy, etc.) they give a permit number this way if someone (neighbors, airplanes, etc.) report smoke of fire - the permit covers you & the service knows the GPS coordinates & everything is OK. Sometimes our burns are really big (like after hurricanes, lots of downed trees & stuff) and could have flames over 30' high. We have a small front end loader & hoses to keep it under control if it gets out of hand. Never had any issues in all those years. We're in a class 10 fire area (the worst). But only bad in times of dry. With over 70" of rain annually & high humidity it's usually not an issue but we do pay dearly on homeowners insurance...due to the classification.
Quote from: luvrbus on February 11, 2019, 07:40:46 AM
I don't care for some CA laws but it is a beautiful state that offers a lot and people want to live there and it's over populated hence all the laws for environment some good some not so good IMO.Every time I go to CA I think 1/2 the cars made in the world use the 405 8)
I agree. It's called the 405 because you go either 4 or 5 MPH in the rush hours, if you're lucky.
(Why the heck do they call it the rush hour when that's the one thing you don't do?)
For all its shortcomings, I really can't think of anywhere better to live. Now if they would just stop destroying perfectly good Crowns I'd be even happier.
John
(Why the heck do they call it the rush hour when that's the one thing you don't do?)
We park on the driveway, and drive on the parkway!