We've got some -20 temps coming.
So I was reading older forum posts about the 6v92 and 8v92 in the extreme cold. Some folks said it's a good idea to keep the block warm to prevent the various metal parts and seals separating and potentially getting coolant leaks into the air box .
Is this just an old wife's take?
If you are going to experience temps that low, I'd use a block heater intermittently. Can't hurt. Just in case coolant freeze protection is marginal.
What would intermittent use do? Our anti-freeze is supposed to protect things down to far colder than we're expected over the next few weeks here in Wisconsin. My concern would be twofold. First, wouldn't intermittent use of a block heater only create more contraction/expansion cycles than just leaving things alone? Seems like the contraction/expansion cycles are what would cause damage more than just being cold. Second, wouldn't having warm engine parts encourage more condensation on those parts?
Unless one is going to leave the block heater on constantly, the block temps will certainly drop back down quite quickly once it's turned off.
I am not an expert on these things, so I pose this more as question than statement.
Great topic. There will be an interesting article by JC Alacoque in our March issue of Bus Conversion Magazine about steps to take when camping or traveling in the cold weather. He travels from BC Canada to AZ every year in his MC-5 and he also drives passenger buses in both Canada and the US in the winter and has a lot of experience with buses in cold weather. Anyone not taking the necessary precautions is asking for trouble.
You can put a plow on your bus like this guy, but JC says it is not really necessary. ;D
If you decide to run chains on your bus, you can't beat these Canadian skidder chains. You will be passing other buses up those snowy hills with these chains on. :D
Have you tested your antifreeze to see if it will work at -20? If it is good I wouldn't worry about the cold hurting your engine. If it is not strong enough, I would drain a couple of gallons,
add pure antifreeze, preheat your engine, and run it for awhile to get it to mix together.
Quote from: neoneddy on January 23, 2019, 11:12:54 PM
We've got some -20 temps coming.
So I was reading older forum posts about the 6v92 and 8v92 in the extreme cold. Some folks said it's a good idea to keep the block warm to prevent the various metal parts and seals separating and potentially getting coolant leaks into the air box .
Is this just an old wife's take?
I'm not worried about the anti-freeze not being strong enough.
This is about the metal components shrinking and potentially causing problems.
I wouldn't worry then, only if you plan on using it. Doesn't hurt them sitting as long as coolant is sufficient. I would think about anything in the coach that might not handle it well.
If it is a 6v92 I would keep it warm JMO
I'd find something else to worry about?
If catastrophic internal disaster is brought on by simply being cold, that engine is on the verge anyway... nice to find out now, that out on the road somewhere.
Cold weather is also good for finding the clamps that need a quarter turn on them. Look for the drips and snug 'em up.
Anti-freeze strength is mission critical, both for freeze protection, and boil over protection. Keep it strong 365 days a year.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Ditto on antifreeze protection being mission critical, not just for the engine but everything else that flows coolant (plumbing, heater cores, defroster cores, etc.) Never hurts to have electric block heat in severe cold in starting if need be. Just my 2 cents... In our case running 40 wt it won't start in real cold without block heat.
Hi All, besides the extreme cold, I warm up the block heater, when I'm in an RV park before starting. Reduces startup smoke, I followed Clifford's and Gary Bennett's advice on this, lvmci...
With that and onboard air compressor,just start up and go.
I know I'm a youngin, but can I chime in here? We've fulltimed in both a 6v92 and now currently an 8v92 in extreme cold. Down to -28°F. I just made sure the coolant was strong enough to handle it and never used a block heater while parked for the winter. No issues in either bus. If you're sure your coolant is ok, don't fret. Many people in Alaska see temps like this all the time and not all of them leave their block heaters on all night.
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on January 24, 2019, 07:01:40 AM
If you decide to run chains on your bus, you can't beat these Canadian skidder chains. You will be passing other buses up those snowy hills with these chains on. :D
Gary, looking forward to your article on installing these chains on a bus!
Matt
Quote from: Scott & Heather on January 24, 2019, 06:17:56 PM
I know I'm a youngin, but can I chime in here? We've fulltimed in both a 6v92 and now currently an 8v92 in extreme cold. Down to -28°F. I just made sure the coolant was strong enough to handle it and never used a block heater while parked for the winter. No issues in either bus. If you're sure your coolant is ok, don't fret. Many people in Alaska see temps like this all the time and not all of them leave their block heaters on all night.
Have you ever had a oil sample taken after a hard winter on a 92 series ?
in 1968, the AK pipeline was put on hold. there were hundreds, maybe 1000's of diesels mothballed in place for 5 years..
they all survived.
there was equipment (cat train/exploration drilling) mothballed in Peard Bay for years waiting on permits...all survived..
check your antifreeze and get a glass of bourbon....
No cliff...I never did. I honestly just drove the buses. My old bus is still being driven around and lived in to this day by a young family out of Missouri. I don't suspect cold would ruin my motor oil. But maybe I missed something along the way. I'm just sharing my experiences with my coaches in cold weather.
Guess he should have plugged in the block heater on this one the night before...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qswm5gFL9EY
Brrrr!
Quote from: Scott & Heather on January 24, 2019, 11:59:21 PM
No cliff...I never did. I honestly just drove the buses. My old bus is still being driven around and lived in to this day by a young family out of Missouri. I don't suspect cold would ruin my motor oil. But maybe I missed something along the way. I'm just sharing my experiences with my coaches in cold weather.
Some 92 series seal back up after extreme cold some don't,DD changed the design and material several times over the years to prevent that problem with liner seals leaking in freezing temps it has always been a problem and the only thing I don't like a a 92 series are those tiny seal rings on the liners in the block they are going to leak
Well, my bus is from northern, MN, I'm in Central MN now, I'm sure it sat out in -20 or -30 for weeks at a time yearly.
This is my second winter with it, last winter I didn't do anything. As most of you regulars know I'm a worrier on this thing and I value everyone's opinion here. It's a great wealth of knowledge.
I'll let it be for now. I can't wait for the warm days in March to get fresh oil in her and start putting some miles on again.
I'm looking forward to the pics--Gary will probably end up looking like he is wearing chain mail!
Just checking my math and suppositions here...
Last spring the shop did some work on my cooling system. They tested the antifreeze and found it good to -60 degrees (extended life coolant).
Later in the spring I discovered that there had been an air pocket and added about 8 gallons. I just checked to premix I added and found that it is good to -34 degrees.
My system holds 23 gallons total (engine + OTR heater/defroster). According to my calculations I have one third of the total at -34 and two thirds at -60. My assumption is that this mix means my freeze protection is going to move one third of the way from -60 towards -34, with the ending protection at around -50 degrees.
I know that the simple solution is to pull a sample and test the antifreeze to confirm. Problem is that I'm parked with the nose uphill right now and if I open the cap on the coolant I'll have coolant pour out - not something I want to do with temps -15 right now. Happens when I open surge tank on a hill like this.
Why the sudden concern? Temps are predicted to be near -30 Tuesday/Wednesday nights. That's cold enough to get my OCD head spinning.
I thought about plugging in the block heater like was mentioned earlier, but that wouldn't protect my OTR heating/defrosting system.
Any thoughts? Am I worried about nothing?
The rules of dilution... no engineers left here?
You didn't put anything in that wasn't laced in sufficient anti-freeze.
hmmm.... freeze and burst something in the bus, or open the lid, with a catch can in place, and test the coolant...
You can put it back in later, after you put bus on the level...
Take a sample? A little elaborate concept for jamming a hose in and taking a squeeze bulb load of coolant into the tester?
You do have your own anti-freeze tester?
If not, there's today's crisis management chore.
Me? I'd ask: What strength is your windshield washer fluid at?
Cuz, I'm a devil...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
The level in the overflow tank shouldn't be so high that coolant rushes out. Crack the flap and see. Or you could push the button on the level check valve and pull a sample. I'm assuming the added coolant was thoroughly circulated. Or.. just worry about it and do nothing.lol
Took my chances and opened the cap slowly - guess the fluid level reduced a bit through contraction in the cold. Pulled a sample using my bulb-type tester, and got very chaotic readings ranging from -20 to -45, mostly centered over the -34 range. I think my tester is having problems.
I'm heading to NAPA to get a new tester and some fresh test strips if they have them.
If needed, the temps on Monday are predicted to be in the 20s. Might be a good idea to pull out a gallon of what's in there, add a gallon of straight antifreeze. If I plug in Sunday night, I could then start the engine on Monday midday to circulate the antifreeze before the next wave of sub zero temps hit on Tuesday night.
I'll report back once I have the new tester in hand.
You could do the calculations but theory is only good until it impacts the real world and that's where your coolant is. So an actual accurate test is going to always be the best. However, your assumptions should be right. That must be some pretty good antifreeze though that is good to 60 below.
Jim
Rules of dilution....
One gallon of straight anti-freeze in a 23 gallon system....
Has what effect?
If you're going to be OCD... purchase a ticket and really go for a ride?
My advice? Go in house, pour a beverage, repeat until you forget about the bus?
You're bus is fine.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on January 26, 2019, 08:20:58 AM
...That must be some pretty good antifreeze though that is good to 60 below.
Jim
It's all in the ratio.
Most of the antifreeze used in diesel engine can be mixed to protect down to -60, at least according to the back of the jugs I've got on hand. Maybe even more. I'm sure that the more protection one gets on the low end will affect the protection on the upper end though, so there will be a point of diminishing returns.
I did go to Napa. They had a nice antifreeze tester with the float thingies, but the most it could read was -34. Instead of wasting $20 on that, I bought a fresh bottle of test strips. Looks like we're somewhere between -34 and -60 from what I can see, probably closer to the -60 side.
I've attached a photo of the test strip, mainly so that newer bus guys/gals can see what we're talking about. The colors didn't reproduce well from the test strip and bottle in the photo, but I think you can get the idea.
Now it's on to that adult beverage someone mentioned earlier.
Excellent report!
Yes, a heavier dose of anti-freeze protection takes a little heat transfer ability out of the mixture, but...
If that small change in chemistry triggers an overheat, the coach cooling system is raggedly marginal and needs hardware work, not an anti-freeze mixture adjustment...
There's charts out there that show the relationship, for those interested.
We need a proper mixture in there for internal corrosion control, more than anything else, in the warm weather. Rusty insides don't transfer heat very well... liner pitting... etc...
Set your mixture once, for the worst conditions likely to encounter, and job is done 365 days of the year.
Test strips for the coolant SCA, replenish as necessary.
Now, where's my glass?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on January 26, 2019, 01:02:58 PM
Excellent report!
Now, where's my glass?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I'm about to pour some of the good stuff. Door's always open!
What about the red waterless antifreeze, I was told not to add any water if it ran short, are there, do the testers work on that stuff? lvmci...
Take a sample of coolant. Put it in a small jar with a screw on lid. Check it on your coldest morning. If it is slushly, plug in your block heater. It has to drop lower for the mixture to freeze solid.
Quote from: lvmci on January 26, 2019, 02:42:36 PM
What about the red waterless antifreeze, I was told not to add any water if it ran short, are there, do the testers work on that stuff? lvmci...
Not sure what you mean here. Are you talking about the red stuff sold in the farm stores for diesel engines which is premixed (no need to add additional water) or something else?
If the premix, then the tester or test strips should work just the same from what I can see.
Or are you talking about something else altogether?
Maybe he is talking about Evans waterless coolant. It doesn't use any water. Supposed to be better than sliced bread. (Expensive sliced bread).
https://www.evanscoolant.com
Different, it's not water soluble, it's been out for a short while, better in hot climates, Clifford do you know the name brand? lvmci...
At $50+ per gallon, I agree about the expensive part. Also agree that the protection is better suited to hot climates with freeze protection only down to -40 degrees. That would barely cover the coming week.
Never had heard of this. I wonder if it's going to become more and more common. If it does, I bet the price will come down quickly.
Its been around for at least 10 years. Hot climates? How about when a Detroit hits 210° and climbing on a long grade in the summer time? Not for me though. Too rich for my use.
Fancy coolants not going in my engine unless I have writing from the laboratories that it meets my engine manufacturers standards.
SCA package, corrosion inhibit, anti-freeze, boil over...
Cooling problems need hardware maintenance or upgrade, not a juice bandaid.
But, roll your own, that's what keeps us all...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
here's a tester that claims to go down to -60 f
look at the unit not there description
https://www.amazon.com/E-Z-Red-S102-Anti-Freeze-Hydrometer/dp/B000JFL7RG/ref=pd_day0_hl_263_4/144-4790431-0829230?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000JFL7RG&pd_rd_r=8c8a2b27-223f-11e9-b211-f3dfa78d1ad5&pd_rd_w=8QnaY&pd_rd_wg=pQHLb&pf_rd_p=ad07871c-e646-4161-82c7-5ed0d4c85b07&pf_rd_r=391RCG3N8J2EH2P5TEJY&psc=1&refRID=391RCG3N8J2EH2P5TEJY
I'd hesitate to use that Evans stuff in a bus. Aside from the cost, it is not as effective in transferring heat (not that they want to admit that) and it's main advantages are that it doesn't evaporate and it doesn't boil until it gets much hotter. (Note also, some engines are not happy running hotter whether they boil or not.) Mostly used in collector cars and museums where they can put it in and forget it's there for 50 years.
Jim
We been running standard Prestone antifreeze in the bus since 79. If I changed to what 21st century literature tells us, wouldn't really know why after all those issue free years. Da early book really doesn't get into specifics. So leave well enough alone...
Quote from: sledhead on January 27, 2019, 06:36:11 AM
here's a tester that claims to go down to -60 f
look at the unit not there description
https://www.amazon.com/E-Z-Red-S102-Anti-Freeze-Hydrometer/dp/B000JFL7RG/ref=pd_day0_hl_263_4/144-4790431-0829230?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000JFL7RG&pd_rd_r=8c8a2b27-223f-11e9-b211-f3dfa78d1ad5&pd_rd_w=8QnaY&pd_rd_wg=pQHLb&pf_rd_p=ad07871c-e646-4161-82c7-5ed0d4c85b07&pf_rd_r=391RCG3N8J2EH2P5TEJY&psc=1&refRID=391RCG3N8J2EH2P5TEJY
I splurged today and ordered a $20 refractometer. Supposed to be the gold standard for testing things like coolant. I was interested to see how it works and will report back.
Quote from: dtcerrato on January 27, 2019, 06:11:05 PM
We been running standard Prestone antifreeze in the bus since 79. If I changed to what 21st century literature tells us, wouldn't really know why after all those issue free years. Da early book really doesn't get into specifics. So leave well enough alone...
[/quote
When the book was written they were not many different types anitfreeze the Cummins engines used a specific anti freeze and was good stuff FWIW not being a huge fan of Prestone I used it in the Detroits,antifreeze,oils,fluids,grease and fuel all have changed lol I know you are not using No.1 fuel 8)Detroits prefered fuel