I replaced the water pump, thermostat, and radiator core on my bus with Series 60 in the first year or two I had the bus due to very serious overheating issues. I took the radiator to a radiator shop and they said it had a lot of pinholes and someone had put leak stop in it. They offered to close off the bad tubes, but I chose a new core instead.
Since I replaced all that stuff normal temperature runs 195 to 200. I use high quality Zerex HD antifreeze and I always make sure it is full of coolant. This past fall the high temperature alert in the DDEC tripped several times at over 215 degrees. It never got hot enough to trip the high temp shutdown. We stopped for about two hours and checked a bunch of stuff like making sure the air filter was not plugged and also verified the air intake was clear.
It seems like I should be running at least ten degrees cooler and am looking for ideas on what to check.
If you ever recore the rad again use a dimpled tube core. They are up to 30% more efficient. I had overheat issues a long time ago after changing the exhaust system. Turned out there was too much back pressure. You may want to have your back pressure checked. I don't know what the figure is for a series 60 but it should be in the book under specs. You may also want to check your thermostat. Even if new they can be defective. A friend of mine has 95 Dina with a series 60 and an 8 speed. No issues at all with temp or anything else. Also check your fan to see if it is coming to full speed when required. The thermostatic coupling may be defective.
Low turbo boost will heat a series 60 check the boost pressure
The turbo boost PSI seems low to me at 14 to 15, but someone here said that is normal on an 11.1 Series 60.
Is 14 to 15 the max boost or is that what you are getting running down the road.
Jack
I don't recall for sure. I think that is max PSI.
When I first got the bus there was a bird nest inside the air intake partially plugging it. As a temporary fix I removed the rubber elbow going into the air filter. I later cleaned out the bird nest and put 1/2" hardware cloth over the intake to stop birds and animals. I checked the intake for any obstructions on my last trip and nothing found. Bryce Gaston had warned me about the intake possibly being plugged. He had seen a Dina where the intake piping collapsed as the intake was completely plugged. In that case I believe he said the engine had to be rebuilt.
14 to 15 running on flat to very mild grade is fine, but you should see mid to high twenties under load full throttle. With the cooling system in good shape you should not be able to overheat the 11.1 no matter how hard you push it, unless someone did some reprogramming and really pushed the power up. When I was still running the 11.1 the highest it ever ran on a long hard pull on a hot day was 205 to 207, which is right where the thermostat reaches full open. After I had the radiator cleaned out it would run steady between about 195 and 202 no matter what I threw at it.
Now that I have the 12.7 running at 1550/470 things are a little different but thats to be expected.
Brian sorry, temporary brain fart. I don't know why I was thinking you had a D series like me. Obviously we don't have the same cooling system as I originally thought, but even so the 11.1 should be a difficult one to get hot unless the cooling system is not up to snuff. You definately need to find out why your boost is low, that will cause the overheating. Disconnect the wastegate and see if it goes up to normal. You may have a turbo in your future. How is the power? Does it seem a little light?
I have no idea if power is light or not. I expect a 40,000 lb brick going down the road isn't going to be the fastest thing on the road. Temperature has been an issue basically since I got the bus, but it was slightly worse this past trip. Cooling a four stroke is not supposed to be much of an issue compared to a two stroke.
I'm not opposed to doing something with the turbo if that is really the issue. They aren't terribly expensive as far as I know.
Brian, how are you reading boost pressure?
Reading turbo PSI off Silverleaf VMSpc.
I would think it would be pretty accurate then. You need to take it for a run and verify what kinda boost you are getting under full load full throttle. Then we can see what way you need to go from there.
Make sure you aren't getting bubbles in coolant overflow tank, warmed up.
Dina doesn't have a sight glass into the expansion tank. The lack of sight glass can cause problems determining the correct level of coolant in the tank. I can't fill the tank 100% due to the design (which I don't want anyhow), but if I fill it up as much as I can excess coolant will spray out from under the fill cap.
I won't take the bus out for a run probably until May unless I end up going to Texas in February.
Test the inter cooler sounds like it is leaking 25+ lbs should be normal under a load or it will heat didn't you bump it up to 370 hp ?
Quote from: luvrbus on January 01, 2019, 12:54:34 PM
Test the inter cooler sounds like it is leaking 25+ lbs should be normal under a load or it will heat didn't you bump it up to 370 hp ?
The inter cooler was tested and some repairs done when I first got the bus. I could certainly have it tested again as the inter cooler is fairly easy to remove. The HP was bumped up slightly more than five years ago, but the heating hasn't changed from what it was before that.
I found my thread about turbo boost from years ago. In that thread I noted that under 100% engine load I was maxing out at 18 PSI. You mentioned that 19.2 PSI is max for the 11.1 with 55 injectors and standard turbo.
My 11.1 would hit 25 to 26 psi under full load. Obviously different turbo and injectors could change that, as well as bad ddec programming. When you turned the power up did he flash a oem program? Or did someone do their own adjustments to the fueling tables? You can flash all kinds of programs on that ecm but if it doesn't match the components you actually have in the engine you won't get the expected result, and in many cases can actually end up going backwards instead of forward.
To be clear, my heating problems and turbo boost issues started long before I had the DDEC flashed. I really never noticed any change in power after the DDEC was flashed.
The DDEC work was done by a Detroit Diesel dealer locally and it is an authorized upgrade.
Check your boost sensor the hose could be broken or the sensor is bad
Brian,
So on my 8v92TA, I had it flashed from a 400hp program to a 500hp program. I never noticed the change at all. My bus still felt slow. More smoke, more heat and no joy. I finally this past summer realized my turbo was bad and after having it rebuilt gained huge amounts of power, eliminated my overheating issue, and stopped the smoke. I'm wondering if you have some sort of mild boost issue...if you had a reflash, you should be able to tell/feel it in the seat of your pants.
There is a lot of talk about a possible turbo issue, but could there be something else with my cooling system causing issues? One of the few things on cooling that has not been replaced is the fan clutch. It is a two speed electric clutch. The strange thing is it locks up as soon as the ignition is turned on. I thought it is supposed to freewheel until around 160 degrees, and then a second stage at a higher temperature.
How can my turbo be tested before I spend money either getting it repaired or replaced?
You could pull the inlet hose off at the turbo and look at the impeller. It should look perfect and no slop if you try to wiggle it side to side or up and down. And easily spin like a small fan blade. Check with your finger, not a screwdriver, so you don't damage the fins. They are somewhat delicate. It is just two impellers connected to each other by a shaft. The exhaust flow spins one end causing the other end to spin and pressurize the air coming from the air cleaner or intercooler. To thoroughly check, remove exhaust pipe from outlet and do the same visual inspection. I would do this with the engine turned off.😵
Scott, depending on what he went from/to for power he may not notice anything in the seat of the pants on an 11.1. For example going from say 330 or 350 @ 1250# to 365 @ 1250# you wont notice it all all. The 330/350 was usually @2100 rpm and some of the 365 were @ 1800 rpm. If you extrapolate that out on a graph you will find them very close to the same tq value up at 2100 rpm. On a series 60 the torque curve is basically flat from 1200 to 1500, and above 1500 it's a fairly straight line to whatever the hp rpm is. Torque curves look quite different compared to a 2 stroke.
That makes sense. So it begs the question, why even get reflashed at all then? But still, we have his overheating issue...
I went from 350 HP to 400 HP. I doubt the local Detroit dealer would have done the upgrade for me if it wouldn't work with my existing cooling, turbo, and such. i thought about going outside to look at the turbo today as it was 46 degrees, but I decided to work on other things.
Back when the 12.7 started replacing the 11.1 in otr trucks the dealers had an incentive program going to try to sell the older used trucks with the 11.1. They would bump the power to 375 or 400 to try to compete with the newer trucks running the 12.7. If it was done at a Detroit shop chances are it was reflashed to one of those programs.
One other note on the turbo. For the past few years I seemed to have a minor exhaust leak I couldn't find. I looked all over at all the clamps for the exhaust and nothing was loose. I had the bus to a different shop than usual in early September to get some routine work done and they said they found a bad clamp on the turbo which I had them replace. Wow, what a difference! The noise from the engine dropped substantially and I am pretty sure the minor exhaust leak is gone now. Not sure which clamp they replaced as I had checked the exhaust side clamp multiple times.
Unfortunately, no change to the heating issues, and no change in power or boost.
Resurrecting an old thread of mine.
I finally got around to opening up the exhaust side of the turbo. The fins looked good and no play. I spun it several times with my hand and it didn't seem to make it even a full turn before stopping. Is this normal without any oil flow from the engine?
Quote from: belfert on July 04, 2019, 06:59:32 PM
Resurrecting an old thread of mine.
I finally got around to opening up the exhaust side of the turbo. The fins looked good and no play. I spun it several times with my hand and it didn't seem to make it even a full turn before stopping. Is this normal without any oil flow from the engine?
If you flick it with your finger it should spin freely with minimal resistance, should spin at least a few revolutions before stopping. What is your boost running under load? Should be upper 20's.
It sounds like I should be looking for a new turbo or a rebuild then based on the impeller not spinning much. Does it make sense to have a turbo rebuilt versus just replacing it? I certainly have time to get it rebuilt.
I am going to stop by the Detroit dealer after work to see if they can tell me what part number turbo I have based on the serial number for my engine.
I went to Detroit Dealer and my turbo part number is 23508405.
Any reason not to just but this Reliabilt one for $465 shipped from Ebay? https://www.ebay.com/p/Detroit-Diesel-Turbo-Charger/1630060866
Before you drop the money for a rebuild, I would take it to a rebuilder and get his opinion on whether it has a problem.
I am not at the shop so the numbers don't mean much anyways some 11,1 used a waste gate that go bad and would not build boost
Coming in late on this one. Just checked (march)the waste gate actwaiter on a 2000 60 series 12.7 it was frozen about 20% open all the time.. It was a bad air actwaiter from air delivery side was not moving flapper ar all. It is important that you get GTA number to match your engine diff air ratio. If yours is a H ar should be ar1.10 70MM intake. I will talk to my friend about it.
from the picture that turbo doesn't have a waste gate?
when you turn one up= more heat. after about 1992 they had waste gate turbo
I just saw this post, and I am not intentionally being a knucklehead.
Have you confirmed the temperature reading with a pyrometer? Sensors do go wonky.
Next step would be removing Tstats and putting them in heated water with a temp probe to confirm they are working.
Is there a way of testing the flow from the water pump?
We are all guilty of trying to find all the potential causes for our problems. But someone told me"when you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras". I am not saying that turbos or chip tuning isn't the cause of your overheating. The things I mentioned are just time, not money consumers, to verify.
Again, no smartaleckness intended.
The bus has run hot since long before I had the ECM reprogrammed. It never goes below 190 once warmed up and is often at, or above, 195 degrees. Radiator, thermostat, and water pump have all been replaced since I bought bus. Last Fall the high temp alert in the ECM tripped several times. It never got to the point of the ECM shutting down the engine.
The ECM upgrade going from 350 HP to 400 HP is an official Detroit upgrade done by a Detroit dealer.
I had a mechanical temperature gauge installed years ago in the engine compartment, but I realized it does no good since I can't read it when the front gauge is showing hot. I could probably replace the temperature sensor quite easily.
The turbo might be going bad and have nothing to do with the heating.
Brian : first of all I hate ghost(hard to find problems) Only other thing I can guess from afar air bubble in head toward flywheel rear of engine. apparently when we change antifreeze the air doesn't get out of cooling passage due to design..
Brian, if your radiator fan clutch is working as intended the ecm controls the fan engagement relative to coolant temperature. You will most likely never see it drop below 195 unless it's a very cool day, or coasting down a long hill. The ecm engages the fan clutch at about 202 and disengages around 195. (This is all adjustable via DDCT so the exact temperatures my vary slightly according to the ecm programming.)
My point is that your series 60 is designed and programmed to run between 195 and about 207 under normal conditions. If it doesn't drop under 195 that is not an indication of a problem. If memory is correct, the series 60 will start to defuel at 212.5, and begin shutdown sequence somewhere between 217 and 222. My memory is a little fuzzy on the last part. When did you experience the overheat warning? Were you pulling heavy up a grade?
Everything else aside, you still have a low boost problem which needs to be addressed. You are leaving power and fuel economy on the table, and you need to get it back under the pedal.
Busted Knuckle told me his Dina ran a lot cooler than 195. I don't recall the exact numbers.
I have an electric fan clutch. It appears the fan clutch locks up as soon as the ignition switch turns on. The fan freewheels when the ignition is off and as soon as I turn the rear ignition switch on I hear a click and the fan is locked solid.
I have Silverleaf VMSPC running on a small Netbook on my dash. It will show somewhere around 215 to 217 degrees when the check engine light starts flashing. The code is for high coolant temperature. I know from experience that if it gets much higher the stop engine light will come on and the engine shuts down. This started happening going through Wyoming on I-80. Strangely, it stopped even while going through Utah and Nevada and didn't happen on the way home.
Hey Brian, First time on Forum for quite some time. Spotted this post just before leaving on vacation. Thought I would share similar concerns with my 1998 Dina with the 12.7 Series 60. The temperatures Derrick points out are accurate for my coach. Temp does not drop below around 195, fan engages about 202. And, the typical operating range is 195 to 207. However, when pulling long steep grades I have had the overtemp warning light come on. The engine has never shut down.
I too have the Silverleaf VMSpc. When I went to leave on vacation a couple of weeks ago I was going to monitor the temps when it "over heated" as it always does on a hot, steep grade near the campground. Fired up VMSpc and got an error message. At that point I was already a few hours behind "schedule", issued a couple of quaint incantations and hit the road. Sorry.
When I got my bus I found that the electric clutch had a screw through it so it no longer functioned. I sent the clutch to the manufacturer to be rebuilt - $$$$$$. It was literally sent to Germany for rebuilding. I got tired of waiting. Ripped out the hub and supporting frame. Built a new frame and installed a new hub and pneumatic clutch. Then, fixed the wiring so it functioned normally. I included a manual over ride switch. My experience in trucks was that in some traffic/road conditions the fan does not come on soon or often enough and the engines get hot. Seeing those conditions coming up I would turn on the fan and leave it on until conditions returned to normal.
I have a nice unused rebuilt electric clutch for sale! 12V
I was buying some parts from Werner Coach. They ran a fleet of around 10 Dinas. They also had overheating issues. Their solution was to cut a vent into the engine hatch cover. I did this and it didn't make any difference. What kind of puzzled me is that with the hatch open and the fan engaged the wind almost blows you off your feet - at idle! Close the hatch and there is almost no perceptible air blowing out the vent.
This over heating seems to affect numerous Dinas. When I look around at diesel pushers - commercial buses or RVs, virtually all have major louvers/venting across the back. In the Dinas there is none. You look around the air intake cabinet leading to the inter-cooler and radiator. The muffler is underneath the uninsulated sheet metal floor. The exhaust manifolds, turbo and exhaust pipe are right next to the uninsulated sheet metal wall. Look at the engine compartment - even with an air dam there is not an efficient air flow. I think the intake air is being pre-heated and hot air around the engine is almost trapped.
My plan is to insulate the exhaust system and to replace the entire engine hatch cover with a totally louvered cover (at least for summers). May also think about misters.
I reprogrammed the transmission to downshift normally rather than slamming into 4th when the jake is on and you take your foot off the throttle. What a difference! This thing is now a pleasure to drive!