Started the bus today for the 2nd time since it's been here and moved it because Chris was coming to get the seats so I ran it for about 1/2hr and the exhaust from the Webasto never got warm. In the manual it says it is supposed to turn on when the engine starts, apparently it isn't doing that, so before I start taking things apart I thought I'd check and see if there's something I'm missing.
The controls are in a pod by the driver's left leg. There's a square faced indicator with a knob (turned all the way up) and a round faced indicator with two small buttons. When one is pressed it shows O.U., the other doesn't seem to do anything. There is a red indicator light that is on, I think maybe that was on the square faced indicator but am not sure without looking again.
I'm not sure the directions in the owner's manual match that well with the equipment I have but I'm headed back out to look at it again. If anyone wants to comment on this I'd be grateful for the guidance. Chris said he had a brand new head for it if I need it. Didn't say how much. I neglected to ask him to look at the controls.
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And if anyone wants to know, (skip this section if not) Chris looked at the air bags and said it had been plated and looked like it was done before it needed it. He also said the engine was bone dry which was a good sign, and he said I have the B500 transmission (called it the big one). Also wanted any of the overhead bins that I remove. He gave me a switch I should be able to use for my mirror heat. Chris lives in Huntingburg, IN, and has a bus repair service, some of you may know him. (vintagecoachpart0 on ebay)
While I had it running I switched on the A/C to see if any freon would come up in the lower sight window on the receiver. It didn't. So probably it is at least low on freon. The oil in the compressor was a little low too, halfway up the lower sight glass. Probably just means there will be less freon to be pumped out when the time comes to work on it. I'll get out my black light flashlight to see if there is any dye in the system.
I moved it around to the end of my shop where I can get at the side bays with my forklift and slide in the genset and the water tank once I've had the chance to cut it down and install baffles and fittings. I've taped out the rough inside layout, which favors the bedroom, bath and office at the expense of the living area but still leaves room for a couch or futon that is long enough to sleep on. Economical and functional, that's the game plan.
Jim
You need a manual for the Webasto. I got mine from a refrigeration shop that is a dealer. The problem could be the ignitor, or the burner orifice, or the flame sensor, or any of the other sensors and other controls. You will also need a diagnostic module that helps a lot. Once it is fixed, all it needs is an annual preventive maintenance. That S60 will run cold and like crap without a properly working Webasto. Good luck.
JC
Here is a great resource for all things Webasto:
http://lloyddegerald.com/
When we got our 4106, I sent the control module and the main burner unit to Lloyd - he did a thorough cleaning and got things functioning, and then it was just maintenance as required.
He is also helpful talking you through some troubleshooting.
Webasto has all the tech manuals available online.
Just keep looking, every language is in there...
https://dealers.webasto.com/Sections/Public/Documents.aspx?SectionId=6&CategoryId=9
There are no mysteries, clean the flame sensor, ensure continuity thru the overheat fuse, fresh nozzle, adjust sparkers, check the wires to sparkers like they are spark plug wires... and use the vacuum cleaner on the burner cavity, get all that crap out of there...
The wires attached externally to the unit live a horrible life, check they are intact.
Steady light on, on all the versions of control I have seen, indicate the unit is being told to burn.
There are a number of different controls available at the driver's position.
The round one, the dial handle in the centre pulls out/pushes in, to accomplish something, often missed by those unfamiliar... line the timer up with the indicator, or it won't burn...
Previous owners can't be trusted to have bypassed the running of the unit, automatically, with engine running...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
OK that... was interesting. Can't say I've ever been so underwhelmed by documentation before, but hey, secrets must be protected I suppose. Here are a couple photos of the controller. One with the "set" button being pressed and one with the "Man" button pressed. No point in including one with neither button pressed, that looks just like it does when you press the "Man" button. The bezel didn't feel like it would turn either. I didn't try any combination of pressing both buttons, guess that's next. If there's a secret combination, please give it up guys. (probably not)
Andy says there's a $100 spark plug that gets replaced every time it's serviced. True? Not true?
So... pull the head I guess. Do cleanup. See what happens. Try not to blow anything up. (this time)
Jim
There are lots of manuals for these online, and before you tear into it you should probably find one. They are pretty complete manuals, so if you're underwhelmed by what you found maybe you didn't find the complete manual for your unit.
Well, there's problem number one...
That's an Espar control, not a Webasto control.
https://www.eberspaecher-na.com/download-center/technical-manuals.html
These are worthy competitors, Webasto and Eberspaecher.
Go into the engine room and find the ID plate for the model, you'll need it for finding the correct manuals
happy coaching!
buswarrior
That other control, with the MCI logo, is the coach HVAC temp control, located in a strange place...
Usually in the instrument panel, in one of the holes to the right of the steering wheel...
I was expecting a square Webasto control to be where this MCI temp control has been fitted...
Repeat after me: Beware the previous owner, damn the previous owner, beware the previous owner...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
There is no way a Webasto would run for 30 minutes and not be hot. If so, it would only be blowing out white unburned diesel if it was cold.
AND, there is an automatic shut down if it doesn't start within a couple of minutes.
Ah yes, I came to the same conclusion though I'd never heard of Espar. Plain as day in the photo though, ain't it? Has the look of a model 24/30/35 from their website. Even has that sideways "W" on the end. Well, I didn't know the difference but it didn't look like any of the Webasto photos I looked at. Must have been a substitution at MCI, there was some mention of MCI on their website. I'm still sorting it out and I've seen a sketch of their controller also. I know about where to look for the model tag so that helps. I have the unit partially disassembled but the tech materials are taking some digging. Should make some progress on it tomorrow.
Jim
As Richard noted above. Call Lloyd DeGerald and he can diagnose many things over the phone related to Webasto, Aqua-Hot and Hydro-Hot systems. All he does is to tour the country attending RV rallies and services these units. He recommends yearly maintenance on these systems and recommends you cycle them at least monthly even in the summer.
He services my unit every January in Quartzsite to keep mine in top running condition. He carries all parts needed with him but if he needs something unusual he can usually get them shipped in overnight. For anyone with one of these units and is planning on coming to Quartzsite in January, call him now to get on his list as he stays very busy while the RV show is going on.
If you are not going to Quartzsite, check his schedule and maybe you can catch him at or near an event near you.
Choose his "Blog" to see his event calendar. http://lloyddegerald.com/
Gary
Don't overlook the possibility either that the previous owners played mix and match with your system, using parts from various manufacturers to get things working. We had an Espar thermostat mounted to the wall, but our boiler system was Webasto.
There is floor hatch to gain access to the unit regardless if it is a Espar,Pro/Heat or Webasto.Mine is a Webasto it wasn't programed to start with the series 60 but to preheat and keep the engine operating temp up if needed
And by "keep the temp up" that means somewhere 160 degrees, inside the pipes at the right place, not necessarily what the dash gauge reads.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
That all sounds helpful. It's an Eberspaecher unit alright, Espar controller. A 24 I think, supposed to be 82K btu I think. I used my phone to take a photo of the tag but I'm away for the weekend and I'm lousy at phone pictures and have lost the photos. The service manual seems to be less a manual for service than an advertisement for factory servicing, at least the one I looked at. I haven't been able to find anything on removing the two wires that go to the burn chamber and it's tough to get the head into a good position to clean it without doing that. I'm guessing they are sensors. I'll have to keep looking. Illustrated parts breakdown might be as helpful as anything, but a spec for spark gap distance would be beneficial. Seems like a simple system with an overly complicated wiring diagram but that's just a first impression and how complex can it be with a 3 wire controller?
One thing I noticed about the coolant loop is that it draws water from the engine, heats it, sends it through the coach heater cores, then exhausts it back to the engine if I followed it correctly. So the heat goes to the coach and any surplus goes to the engine, unless you shut off heat to the coach. May not be the most efficient but as long as it works I'll not make any changes right away.
I guess it needs fuel, air, and power so I'll approach it that way to start with. Get those squared away and then look at the controls and the spark. I'm fairly familiar with burners and have made some of my own including oil fired.
My best guess is something in particular has caused it to stop working. Clogged nozzle, failure of fuel supply, failure of spark, or failure of signal to turn on. So it seems the problem should be found in one of those places.
Jim
About that heat controller... I do have one in the right hand side of the dash which has a digital temp readout, I think the manual says it is for the coach heat. I also have a square hole in the lower dash close to the wiper controls that was taped over, looks to be in about the right location and about the right size for the driver's heat controller, but it's a blank hole. This one has a red light and no readout. Something other than stock was done there but I'm not sure what. One more small puzzle to ponder.
Jim
Add "safety systems triggered" to your trouble shooting.
Biggest pain, but are the most important parts... prevents burning up the coach, if the unit misfires...
Never saw a digital temp read out in an older "D" model tell the truth... go old school, turn the knob until passengers stop complaining... the light on, indicates the coolant valve is open, putting heat to the heat exchanger. It is a smart little beast, once it is to temp inside the coach, it holds it quite closely, the light on and off not always makes sence, but so long as the temp holds steady, don't worry about it.
That is a separate issue from some parts of the coach constantly being cooler/hotter than others... that is air distribution failure, not the controls...
The coolant boiler is there to help heat the coach interior, thus the plumbing order. Used as an engine pre-heater, since there's no fans running, it just warms up the heat exchanger on the journey to the engine... at 82K BTU, you aren't going to get any delay...
Where a busnut screws this up, is if the water valve on the coach HVAc is somehow unintentially powered by home brew controls, and is set closed... normally, ignition off, the valve's resting position is open when power is off...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Thanks for the good advice. I will include the safety interlocks, in my experience with similar type control systems that is usually where the trouble lies, and often it is simply a matter of getting all the switches set properly to allow operation. With the general, advisory nature of the MCI system description and the broad non-specific nature of the Espar documentation that may involve a lot of guesswork. At least working from schematics I hope to identify the interlock components. In any event the final output will be either a power=on, power=off or contact closed signal and that will allow me to split the system and identify which end has the problem. Use standard troubleshooting procedures after that.
I have jet cleaning wires and solvents to clean the burner head and I plan to test operation before putting it back in the housing. (Yes, definitely want to avoid the large fireball in the engine compartment part of that process.) Unless I can find a spec for the spark gap I'll just have to set them to where they get the fattest spark. Hopefully I can pull the power feed from the fuel pump while doing that, and pull power from the spark while testing the fuel and jet.
Clifford, thanks for the info about the hatch. If that is on top the step below the rear inside bulkhead, mine has some black plastic discs at the corners of the panel (hatch) which look like like they could be some sort of snap on screw covers. I've been hesitant to try prying them off in case I would break them. Does any of this sound at all familiar? (Also, I really hope Sonya is doing better.)
It's likely the burner was due for a cleaning, though it really doesn't look bad from my perspective. So at the least I can bring that up to date even if it turns out (likely enough) that a switch somewhere is turning it off.
Jim
If the Espar is anything like the Webasto, you might find that it fires up after a thorough cleaning. There are a few safety devices on these things that don't like being dirty, so that would be my first effort.
Is this manual helpful?
https://www.butlertechnik.com/downloads/Eberspacher_Installation_Parts_list_and_Workshop_manual_D24W.pdf
If I remember, there are 2 hatch cover accesses at the back of the D. One on the floor driver side. The other under the very back seat cushion. I used to do most of the Webasto work from above.
JC
Here is a couple pics from a 1996 D
Thank you, the information very is helpful. Monday morning I will pull the access hatch and that will make it much easier to get at. On that panel, I guess I'll just take a chisel to those black plastic washer like things and if they won't just pop off, break them.
My son found the archived photo on my phone so I now know that it is a model: HL2-24, Ref# 25 2487, Serial# 72724DA
It's not exactly the one the manual in the link refers to, mine has the big round knob on the air inlet end and the round cover. There's still a lot of info in there that would be the same, some that isn't. It seems they had a compact unit and a standard one and mine is the standard one. It's very similar to a manual I did find but may have more pages. I'll do some more searching this evening and tomorrow.
It also looks like the controller is the 99 hour electronic timer. I'll need to find the operating instructions for it, as so far it doesn't seem like it's working as it should.
Jim
I think the biggest question right now is, what indication does the 99 hour timer give when the control board in the hydronic heater unit is locked out?
According to the manual one of the lockout conditions is a number of consecutive non-starts. That could easily happen. Then does that disable the 99 hour timer? If it does, is there a fault indication? If there is, then does that match what I'm seeing? (set doesn't work and digits read U0) In which case cleaning the head and clearing the fault could be enough. That requires a wire to be momentarily jumpered. I found a better manual, much better on the troubleshooting, better drawings also.
On the alignment of the electrodes there never was any spark gap specification given. Instead they include an alignment block in the repair parts kit it seems. So I guess I need to order replacement electrodes just to get the alignment tool. Either that or guess. Should be a fairly typical spark gap for 20,000volts, about .030"
https://www.butlertechnik.com/downloads/Eberspacher_Heater_Hydronic_16,24,30,35_Troubleshooting_&_Repair_manual.pdf
Jim
No longer Webasto so I guess the thread should end, but there isn't much else to tell. Maybe the results. Just a couple more photos. First, what I took for black plastic washers on the access panels (dim light, poor vision) were actually 9mm socket head panel latches, photo below.
After the panels were open I took these photos. You can see the need for cleaning the burner and gapping the electrodes. I think if I detach the two sensors and then the fuel lines I can get it out on the bench for a proper cleaning and service.
Headed to Miami day after tomorrow as co-driver ferrying my son's S&S down there and should be back the first of next week. If there's anything new that is of particular interest I'll post it, and that should be the end of it, I would think.
all the burner nozzles that I have removed from my Webasto always look brand new and they would not always fire . at $10 or less it is cheep insurance to keep the temperamental thing running
dave
And get that oil burner nozzle from an HVAC source, not Weba$to...
Part in hand, they'll know what to give you.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
I gave my heating guy the wpx-886-41a-df # and he got me this delavan 40-60w for under $10 and it works every time and I installed a new fuel filter as well
again this is on my aqua hot unit
dave
Would you get parts for an Eberspaecher at the same places?
I found another useful manual:
https://www.eberspaecher.se/fileadmin/data/countrysites/EB_Schweden/pdf/Broschyrer/Produkter/Product_information-2017-en.pdf
I find the plumbing particularly interesting.
I put it all back together after a thorough cleaning, though I didn't think to put the nozzle in the ultrasonic. Oh well. I think the issue is electrical anyway. The connectors are in very bad shape. I will have to replace them. The electrodes didn't appear to have any spark erosion so I didn't attempt any adjustment there.
What I think happened is that the connectors failed and caused an error indication on the timer, at least I hope so. If so it might not even have triggered a lockout.
Prof.
If your system is like the Webasto, there are also a number of sensors in the system (temp, etc.) that can shut down or keep the system from firing.
If you get a call to Lloyd, he will probably be able to talk you through the steps to bypass everything in your system to see if you can force the burner to light. Then you can walk it backwards until you locate the specific problem that's keeping things from working.
This is what I did with ours - about 15 minutes on the phone and Lloyd had me run through the steps to isolate the problem. Once we determined what it was, I decided to send the unit to him for service. You might be able to fix it yourself once the problem is found. Ours came back like a brand-new unit and worked like a champ from then on.
Do not ignore the nozzle.
That is an annual service part in a home oil furnace.
Think about the consequences of it dribbling fuel into that chamber, instead of spraying a good fine mist...
Standard oil nozzle, the coolant burner peeps like to mark 'em up really hard.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: richard5933 on January 01, 2019, 01:51:20 PM
If you get a call to Lloyd. . .
I'm a little upset with Lloyd right now. . .
I called him about our AquaHot providing lots of heat thru the house heating and engine block heating sides, but not enough hot water to wash the dishes, let alone take a shower.
$250 later I get a package with a Watts LF70A mixing valve, was told to take the guts out and swap it into the valve that's in the system. Opened up the new valve to see the guts, nothing more than a new spring, o-ring and thermostatic unit.
Go online with Google and find the Watts catalogue, look up the LF70A installation instructions. What's this? An LF70A-RK repair kit? Which consists of the "guts" Lloyd told me to pull out of the new $250 valve he just sent me?
Five minutes later I've found the LF70A-RK at Home Depot for all of $16.98. I found the LF70A complete valve assembly at Graingers for $88. Also found the complete valve assembly at one of WalMart dot com's vendors for all of $41.
And I paid $250?
On top of that, replacing the guts of the tempering valve with the repair kit parts still didn't solve the problem.
I've got an email into Lloyd requesting a meeting with him in Quartzsite in a couple weeks to return his unused valve and request my $250 back. So far, he hasn't responded. . .
>:( >:( >:(
Sad to say, that's not an uncommon occurrence in business, but it isn't entirely unjustified. So many causes. For instance, not having the time to chase down the best deals for every component you sell, while trying to keep a fairly broad inventory. What happens is that you end up ordering most of your stock from 2 or 3 vendors that treat you right but overall the cost to your customers goes up, which it would also have to do if you charged for your time in looking for the bargains. So you are always going to find better prices when you cut out the middleman, sometimes a lot better. Let me ask, how much time did you spend getting the cheaper valve? Maybe a couple of hours? Well at today's business cost for an hour's labor (not your wages rate but the total included cost) for someone skilled enough to get the right part and not have a return to deal with, you can see that the margin between what you paid and what Lloyd charged decreased substantially. And since these service parts are usually charged to jobs where the owner/customer is pretty clueless about the system, just wants it working again and is willing to pay to make that happen, well I expect you can see how this happens. Add in all the other factors that affect businesses and it's a wonder anybody makes it.
Prof
I can't speak for what happened in this instance, but it's the first time I've heard anything negative about the service from Lloyd.
I have to agree. I and several other folks have had excellent service from Lloyd. He services a lot of rigs every year and I have talked to others that have used him. Nobody I have talked to have had a problem with him, but maybe there was a misunderstanding. I am sure Lloyd will make it right when you land in Quartzsite.
The only experience I have had with Loyd was about 4 years ago when I called him in to look at a Hurricane system on a Patriot motorhome for one of my clients (uses a webasto 2010). Unit was rolling smoke. He spent about an hour and charged me $650 to do an annual maintenance and never fixed the problem. Ended up taking the unit apart and fixing it myself.
Quote from: thomasinnv on January 01, 2019, 05:40:30 PM
The only experience I have had with Loyd was about 4 years ago when I called him in to look at a Hurricane system on a Patriot motorhome for one of my clients (uses a webasto 2010). Unit was rolling smoke. He spent about an hour and charged me $650 to do an annual maintenance and never fixed the problem. Ended up taking the unit apart and fixing it myself.
Annual maintenance... Clean the burner, replace the nozzle, replace the fuel filter? Maybe $50 worth of parts and a wire brush to clean the burner.
I'm sure you guys will sort that out one way or another and I don't have a dog in the fight. Once my wiring is right I hope the Eberspaecher will work as intended and I'll plan on replacing the nozzle next time I have it open. Now that I know how easy it is to access through the floor panels I don't see it as much of a task, the worst part being the fuel lines. Maybe I can move those to a more convenient spot though for disconnecting them.
I will probably have to analyze the wiring when replacing the connectors to be sure nothing was missed. At that time I may consider a new controller, or I may not. But understanding the wiring will tell me how to best test the unit's operation so that would be a plus and If I go that far with it I'll probably write up a test procedure to be kept with other important papers in the bus. That way at the next inspection I won't have to guess. I'll try to make it a simple and effective procedure and make it available here at that time but since it's not a Webasto I'm not sure how many would want it.
Prof
Quote from: sledhead on January 01, 2019, 10:03:41 AM
I gave my heating guy the wpx-886-41a-df # and he got me this delavan 40-60w for under $10 and it works every time and I installed a new fuel filter as well
again this is on my aqua hot unit
dave
Dave-- with that nozzle, do you notice more black smoke and greater fuel usage? The first AH number you listed is correct for a .035 nozzle with the correct spray pattern. The Delavan is for a .40 nozzle, I'm not sure of the spray pattern, but definitely uses more fuel.
Geoff
my heating guy could not get the other nozzle so he said try this one and it works great ! every time . I had a problem with the old one
wpx-886-41a-df but I do not know how old it was . It did look brand new ? , but sometimes it would not start up ?
so I am really happy with the 40 over the 35 nozzle and the cost was cheep . you might be right about the little extra fuel it might use but my heating guy works with this stuff every day so I trust him
hoped that helped
dav
A .40 in place of a .35 is not going to hurt anything. It will burn a fraction more fuel, but the btu output is also going to be slightly higher resulting in an ever so slightly shorter run cycle. In the end the overall fuel usage would probably be a wash. The older units actually used a .40 to begin with, but they also used a little bit lower fuel pressure. When an older unit needs a fuel pump replacement, webasto recommends replacing with the higher psi pump and changing to the .35 nozzle. The reason was for better atomization of the fuel resulting in a cleaner burn and less chance of fouling the nozzle. As for the spray pattern, if memory serves it should be 60.
I have always had good luck from Loyd,parts prices for the Aqua/Hot are pricey Loyd probably got the mixer valve from Aqua/Hot and paid the price those guys do that for a reason if the part is bad they know Aqua/Hot is going to step up and pay the labor.I think it should have been settle before hammering him here 1st though JMO. Prices people don't like Luke's prices sometimes either lol Luke and I are good friends and he knows I going to shop him