Ok, so on both of my buses I installed 110v flojet well pumps. Have loved the house water pressure and flow, but after going through four of them from failures, I'm over it. Ready for a 12v pump swap now. Any full timers have good luck long term with any 12v pumps? Specifically 5gpm or more units?
How big is your pressure tank? In my experience a properly sized pressure tank will go a long way towards having good pressure/flow with a 12v pump, as well as help extend the life of the pump since it will not be in continuous service nearly as much when used with a tank.
Also, if you are running hard water as you travel around the country perhaps you should focus on a pump that's either tolerant of that or that is designed to have the seals replaced easily so that you can stay ahead of problems with frequent maintenance.
We run a pretty typical Sureflo 12v pump, but I do carry an extra pump head so that I can have one out to clean/service while the other is in the pump. So far so good, but I'm looking for a good 2-3 gallon tank to install to limit the cycle time since the 1 liter one we currently have isn't large enough.
What are the "failures"?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
We use the Shurflo Revolution 12V pump with the Shurflo RV accumulator tank. Although it gives many many years of reliable maintainance free service we carry an entire new spare pump cause we're never gonna be w/o house water...
Sureflo is the common pump used and available everywhere. Been around for years. We carry a spare also, just in case, and also have an accumulator tank to eliminate cycling.
Check your marine dealers they sell a better grade of water pumps at wide range of prices.when you install it mount it vertically with the pump side down and they will last longer
I have a 3 gallon expansion tank. My failures have been basically the pressure switches, pump bodies cracking, my
Most recent my pump just started spewing water from somewhere. Can't even tell where. I'm slowly
Moving my stuff over to 12v in the coach but I want the best pump I can buy
Quote from: Scott & Heather on December 17, 2018, 01:01:54 PM
... but I want the best pump I can buy
Just a suggestion...the best pump you can buy may not be the most expensive. I've seen a few RV pumps that provide good flow and pressure, with the problem that they seem to only last about a year (sometimes more, sometimes less). The good news is that they are not really that expensive as compared to some of the better 120v models.
What if you found a decent quality pump at a good price point which provided the flow/pressure you need, installed it in a way that allows for easy and quick swapping, and then just accept that you'll be replacing it every year. Since you have a family that requires a degree of certainty with the water situation, perhaps even install two in parallel. If one craps out, you've already got its replacement in place with the flip of a switch. Replace the defective one as soon as you're able, and carry on.
Quote from: Scott & Heather on December 17, 2018, 01:01:54 PM
I have a 3 gallon expansion tank. My failures have been basically the pressure switches, pump bodies cracking, my
Most recent my pump just started spewing water from somewhere. Can't even tell where. I'm slowly
Moving my stuff over to 12v in the coach but I want the best pump I can buy
The best you can buy is going to be the marine pumps ,FloJet and Shurflo both make a decent pump but you don't buy one for 80 bucks,look at the Johnson pump for about $250.00 or 300.00 it is not the RV junk lol or you can buy a $1200.00 water pump like the Prevost has
Flojets are noisy pumps if mounted inside. Shurflo is a quieter pump. Hope this helps. Raymond
Buy the cheapest Shurflo available-mainly the ones that are the old fashion on/off type, not variable speed. Run two of them T'd together. In 24 years, I've only replaced the pumps once, and that was two years ago. Even the Shurflo factory man said the on/off are the most reliable. Good Luck, TomC
I use the shurfo pump with a 3 gallon pressure tank I only get about 5 years out of them, I think the older ones lasted a lot longer than the newer ones!>>> John.
Tom, are those still pressure switched?
As for noise, these are in a luggage bay with a double 3/4" plywood floor with a 2.5" foam filling. I won't hear them. Trust me. Richard it indeed might be a good idea to mount this in a location I can access and replace easily when needed. I just have house needs full size washer and dryer and shower/head as well as two bathrooms and kitchen sink to supply. So need 5gpm or more. I'm willing to spend the $$ on a good pump if that is indeed what it takes. My current setup would be fine but somehow I blew this pump housing and have no idea why. Plus, as I said I've moving over to 12v stuff at this point.
Scott seams like the pump should be just out of the tank not way up high like you have it. It is working harder first to pull the prime through the maze of pipes and up hill before you ever get water to other areas. Just some thoughts from the picture.
Quote from: Dave5Cs on December 18, 2018, 08:28:33 AM
Scott seams like the pump should be just out of the tank not way up high like you have it. It is working harder first to pull the prime through the maze of pipes and up hill before you ever get water to other areas. Just some thoughts from the picture.
These pumps can easily pull much more head than that, and even if it's tough to prime that only has to be done once.
Unless your tank runs out.
Dave as Richard said, these well pumps don't have problems pulling water. That's not what caused my failure, it is the plastic pump housings not handling pressure or diaphragms going bad from dissolved minerals in the various places we go, etc. in this case, I think I accidentally backed the pump 100psi water pressure at a state park here recently and blew it up. Still investigating. That's not a maze of pipes either, that's a clean plumbing job to keep the pipes out of the way of the 150 gal black tank which goes in that spot
Then it sounds like you need a filtering system as well as a new pump. ;)
Getting a 12v pump that will serve two or maybe three of your needs wouldn't be that tough, but you've got a lot of straws dipped into the same system.
We went with a 3.5 gpm @ 45 psi pump. These pumps are pretty inexpensive so I don't stress out when I have to replace it. Since all the faucets have a low-flow rating we can run two at a time with tolerable results. But there are just two of us in the bus using water so our needs are not so high. Once you get to 12v pumps that can reliably put out 5+ gpm to meet your higher water demand, it looks like things can get more expensive. I agree that the marine world has a better selection of pumps that put out more flow, but apparently putting pictures of boats on a package immediately raises the price.
Is your plumbing set up in a way that you could have two or even three smaller pumps, each serving separate functions. For example, put a separate pump in the line going to the washing machine - it could run all day and your shower/kitchen would never know it's there. Not sure if you can easily split the output from your fresh water tank to serve multiple smaller pumps, but it would be another way to skin this cat. Plus, you would never have a total failure if one of the pumps quit.
Richard,
That's an interesting concept. I'm curious as to whether I can run two pumps in series...isn't that what TomC is doing? Can this be done?
Dave, you're probably right. I do need a better filter but I'm already filtering with one of those inline jobs at the spigot. Dissolved minerals are going to be harder to remove without a softener or something. We travel so much to different places with different water it's a little crazy what I find building up in various places in our water system.
Quote from: Scott & Heather on December 21, 2018, 02:31:28 AM
Richard,
That's an interesting concept. I'm curious as to whether I can run two pumps in series...isn't that what TomC is doing? Can this be done?...
I'd guess they are in parallel - not sure how it would work in series. Running in series would up pressure, not water flow. Doesn't sound like pressure is the problem. Running them parallel would keep the pressure the same but increase flow. Gee - this all sounds just like a battery conversation.
Seems like you can branch the fresh water tank output to as many pumps as you'd like, one for each bathroom, one for the kitchen, etc. Wouldn't want to overdo this, but it would certainly make for better flow using less expensive (easily found/replaced) pumps.
I have been reading this thread with interest. I don't have an RV now but have had some in the past and found it necessary to replace a 12volt pump on the road.
I have kicked this idea around for a bus. Maybe there is something I missing, but...
Since there is an air system on a bus, could you pressurize the fresh water tank and just have air press the water through the system?
For stationary many have talked about having auxiliary air pumps, so that could be used when parked.
It seems like it could be done simply and eleviate the need for a pump.
Of course the tank would have to be air tight and capable of handling the pressure.
What do you think?
Seb
A pressurized tank would work, but it would require a stronger tank style that would take up more room in the baggage bays. Most of us have rectangular plastic or metal tanks that fit in the bays better than a rounded tank. It would not require a lot of pressure to move the water, but I doubt that the squared tanks could take the pressure without ballooning. You would also need a separate additional air compressor to power the system while parked, which might cost more than a 12 volt pump, and make more noise.
Yes rectangular tanks would not work. I was thinking of those Tractor Supply tanks.
There are these small 110 volt air pumps. I know Harbor Freight has them.
Just an idea.
Seb
Quote from: DoubleEagle on December 21, 2018, 08:30:47 AM
A pressurized tank would work, but it would require a stronger tank style that would take up more room in the baggage bays. Most of us have rectangular plastic or metal tanks that fit in the bays better than a rounded tank. It would not require a lot of pressure to move the water, but I doubt that the squared tanks could take the pressure without ballooning. You would also need a separate additional air compressor to power the system while parked, which might cost more than a 12 volt pump, and make more noise.
Using air pressure to push the water from the tank would work in theory, but I suspect that in practice it would prove more difficult and more problem-prone than using 12v water pumps.
Not only would the tank need to withstand the 40-50 psi necessary for a good shower and water use, you'd most likely need to have a bladder built into the tank similar to how a pressure tank is built. I remember reading about a system like you're describing, and it seems that there were problems with the air becoming mixed in with the water instead of just pushing it along. And then you'd have to release the pressure every time the system was filled, especially if filling using gravity.
In general, before reinventing things, I've learned to examine what's out there and already being done. Also to look at earlier methods to do things that have disappeared. Sometimes methods go away due to price or economics, but more often because the method proved to be a failure or not as effective as what stayed on the market. Given that even the higher-end most expensive coaches still use a pump system, I'm going to guess that a pressurized system has not been used till now for a reason.
Back to the original question, I still think that going with a system that can be repaired on the road, that has easily obtained parts, and is relatively low cost is the ideal for a water system.
Tanks were pressurized in the 60's I owned a Mobil Scout that had one they are a real pain,stick with a demand pump JMO
Quote from: TomC on December 17, 2018, 10:41:07 PM
Buy the cheapest Shurflo available-mainly the ones that are the old fashion on/off type, not variable speed. Run two of them T'd together. In 24 years, I've only replaced the pumps once, and that was two years ago. Even the Shurflo factory man said the on/off are the most reliable. Good Luck, TomC
On TomC's suggestion, that's also exactly what I have. Two good ol' SHURflo 2088 pumps (cheap, simple,
very reliable, easy to fix) with strainers, both on easily-removable mounting plates that are on a slide-out tray, so to change from one pump to another is just opening and closing four valves and two switches; I can completely remove a pump in less than a minute with no tools. It doesn't get easier than that! I also have a Watts 263A adjustable pressure regulator set to the same 45 PSI as the pumps, so who cares what the city water pressure is, the bus always gets 45 PSI regardless. Two pressure gauges show me incoming city water pressure and bus pressure, and there's a Watts DET-5 accumulator tank to smooth things out.
John
Quote from: Iceni John on December 21, 2018, 06:22:09 PM... I also have a Watts 263A adjustable pressure regulator ...
John
Yeah, I was wondering about a pressure regulator.
I don't like the 45psi regulators as I was using them and they reduced the pressure a bit too much for my liking. Now I could and should buy the adjustable one because I like my prsssure right around 55psi or so. But yeah, I probably am backfeeding the pump a little too much and causing issues. Putting a one way on that pump exit line isn't an option because that's how I have always primed the pump was by backfeeding it. So I need to redesign my setup so the pump self primes... back to the drawing board.
Quote from: Scott & Heather on December 23, 2018, 12:20:32 AM
I don't like the 45psi regulators as I was using them and they reduced the pressure a bit too much for my liking. Now I could and should buy the adjustable one because I like my prsssure right around 55psi or so. But yeah, I probably am backfeeding the pump a little too much and causing issues. Putting a one way on that pump exit line isn't an option because that's how I have always primed the pump was by backfeeding it. So I need to redesign my setup so the pump self primes... back to the drawing board.
Be careful with your choice of regulator. What you may have experienced was a poorly designed regulator that reduced flow along with pressure. They operate basically the same as if you partially closed the tap. A good regulator will allow full flow while it reduces pressure. A full flow regulator outputting 45 psi will produce a decent shower. One which reduces flow will not.
Just some food for thought as you choose your next regulator - be sure to look for the flow rate in addition to the pressure regulation.
Good thoughts on the regulator. Thanks Richard
Why do you need a regulator ? those pumps don't produce a enough pressure to need 1,the pumps in a tandem have been used for years that is more for volume lol I don't see that much increase in volume either.the lower the PSI the lower the flow do it the shower head
Quote from: luvrbus on December 23, 2018, 03:35:15 PM
Why do you need a regulator ? those pumps don't produce a enough pressure to need 1,the pumps in a tandem have been used for years that is more for volume lol I don't see that much increase in volume either.the lower the PSI the lower the flow do it the shower head
Pressure regulators are for the incoming city water pressure only, not the pumps' output! There's about 65 PSI in the RV storage yard here, and some people have talked of campgrounds with almost 100 PSI.
John
Sorry about that John,that is what you get for posting with no sleep,lol we covered that a while back didn't we ,but a built in regulator is not going to do much good you need a regulator at the outlet source or a darn good hose
Scott -
Our Prevost Vantare conversion has two FloJet 4325-143 pumps in parallel. If one quits, we can simply turn on the other one. They're both mounted vertically, with the pump end down, on the bay wall just inside the door, easily accessible. On the MCI, we had a single SurFlo, and I've noticed that the FloJets are much quieter.
Speaking of water, I'm going over tomorrow to visit Perley Benson and take a look at his home-made reverse-osmosis filtration system. You might be interested in it also - he says the way he's got it set up, he's always pulling pure filtered water from the on-board tank, and it's eliminated all the issues with mineral build-up in his coach - 22 years full-timing. Will follow up after visiting.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
I never use direct campsite hookup. I fill the tank, and only use the water pumps. Then you don't have to worry about too much pressure, have to use a pressure regulator, etc. Easier to turn off pumps, then cranking off the water faucet if you spring a leak. Also having a manifold system (like Pex Maniblok), allows you to use the rest of the plumbing even if you blow one faucet, etc. Good Luck, TomC
"Also having a manifold system (like Pex Maniblok), allows you to use the rest of the plumbing even if you blow one faucet, etc."
Excellent idea, "next" bus I build will be done that way. I did do the two pump setup but the manifold is a real good idea. Jack
I have shut off valves for literally every single line off my pex manifold.