<rant on>
I've decide I really hate my AquaHot unit. I really like the radiant heat I have in the bus, but I'm so sick of dealing with this POS AquaHot that right now I could rip it out and send it to the scrap yard. Seems like all it does is leak fuel all over the inside of it which saturates the bat insulation they wisely built into the insides, whcih are riveted together so you can't easily get at it to clean it or replace it. Then, it up everything in the bus. I had to modify the case last year because the fuel was running into the bay instead of outside. I've replaced the o-ring in the pump multiple times. Replaced it again last spring. Again, today, I find fuel all over the bottom of the unit!
I'm thinking this whole Webasto thing is a really poorly designed burner. If I had to do it all over again, I would never spend the money or time installing a Webasto based heater system.
<rant off>
Thanks Gumpy
I have been debating if I should go this route and I believe I don't want the headache. It seems so complicated. Thanks for being honest on this system.
Quote from: gumpy on November 07, 2018, 01:31:44 PM
<rant on>
I've decide I really hate my AquaHot unit. I really like the radiant heat I have in the bus, but I'm so sick of dealing with this POS AquaHot that right now I could rip it out and send it to the scrap yard. Seems like all it does is leak fuel all over the inside of it which saturates the bat insulation they wisely built into the insides, whcih are riveted together so you can't easily get at it to clean it or replace it. Then, it up everything in the bus. I had to modify the case last year because the fuel was running into the bay instead of outside. I've replaced the o-ring in the pump multiple times. Replaced it again last spring. Again, today, I find fuel all over the bottom of the unit!
I'm thinking this whole Webasto thing is a really poorly designed burner. If I had to do it all over again, I would never spend the money or time installing a Webasto based heater system.
<rant off>
Well, Craig, you are a do-it-yourselfer. The problem is you bought an Aqua-Hot instead of buying a Webasto and building your own system. Now you are stuck in the confines of a packaged system instead of one you built and spread apart so you can get to everything independently.
I've had my Webasto problems myself, but having it sit independent has made repairs much easier. And I've had fuel leaks but that is behind me, and mine is working great.
--Geoff
I forgot to mention that the raw fuel problem I had ended up being a bad flame sensor. Since then I bought a Factory test unit, which I should have done from the beginning.
Quote from: Geoff on November 07, 2018, 02:28:34 PM
Well, Craig, you are a do-it-yourselfer. The problem is you bought an Aqua-Hot instead of buying a Webasto and building your own system. Now you are stuck in the confines of a packaged system instead of one you built and spread apart so you can get to everything independently.
I've had my Webasto problems myself, but having it sit independent has made repairs much easier. And I've had fuel leaks but that is behind me, and mine is working great.
--Geoff
Well, yes and no. I did buy an Aquahot, but I re-engineered it because it was a B model unit, so I pretty much did build it myself, other than the burner and tank assembly.
The main problem regarding leaking fuel is a Webasto problem, not an Aquahot problem. Their dang burner leaks full from multiple locations, the main one being the fuel pump and from what I have found, you can't buy the o-ring. They want to sell you a whole new fuel pump, instead. I've also had problems with the solder points on the control board.
It's not too difficult to get the Webasto head out to work on it, but some of the wiring is integrated into the Aquahot enclosure, which makes it more difficult. Definitely not as convenient as an independent installation could be.
Aquahot did do a rather poor design on their fabrication with respect to draining of any leaking fuel or preventing it and/or antifreeze from getting into the insulation. I've had to pull this thing apart twice now to repair broken coils, which were my own fault, but that actually was not as bad as I expected it to be. Yes, it would have been easier if the components were separate.
I did a Webasto install for a friend in Alaska with separate components which he had purchased from Dick Wright. I don't know if it would be any easier to work on because we put it in the old OTR heater compartment.
I read where MCI no longer offers the Webasto unit in their buses because of such problems,for 10k seems like AquaHot would have their act together
I have an Aqua-Hot unit in my Eagle and it sometimes does cause problems. The key to happiness is to use it on a regular basis, at least run it on the diesel mode at least once month and have it serviced at least once per year. Lloyd DeGerald services mine in Quartzsite every January. Lloyd travels around the country to several RV shows and services these units. He also can supply you with parts and provides great phone service. Try to set up an appointment with Lloyd if you are heading to Quartzsite this January and if you will not be there, check his schedule and try to get to a location where he will be by viewing his schedule. Check out his website for more info. http://lloyddegerald.com/
This is why I have an Atwood 40,000btu forced air propane furnace, 2-10gal electric water heaters, and electric block heater. In 24 years, I've only had to replace the propane furnace once-that's all!. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on November 08, 2018, 08:50:00 PM
This is why I have an Atwood 40,000btu forced air propane furnace, 2-10gal electric water heaters, and electric block heater. In 24 years, I've only had to replace the propane furnace once-that's all!. Good Luck, TomC
I've had both setups now... electric with the LP furnace and the Webasto system. I agree that the electric/LP generally is nice to use, except for times when you're not on shore power. Then it's necessary to run the generator to either warm the engine or make hot water, and after a while neither of us wants to hear the generator any more.
The great thing about the Webasto was being able to quietly heat the bus, the hot water, and have the engine warmed and ready to start first thing in the morning. Ours was problematic at first, but after Lloyd gave it a once over things ran smooth and leak free.
Heating comes at a price regardless of the system,3 things I don't like about diesel fired heat,the noise,smell and the exhaust temperature the 500+ degree exhaust will cook everything close.Certain times of year here in some of the National and State parks your forbidden to run one and cold showers suck big time.They give problems to many people service the units at the FMCA rallies for one to be without fault. Rich makes a good living from servicing the units I don't know Lloyd, lol I never been around one that I would call quite though
What about the LP powered Webasto units?
Never saw or knew they ever made a propane Webasto unit,AquaHot and Oasis make a propane unit but it is no Webasto or ProHeat based.I had a Primus system with double propane boilers now it was quite and trouble free for the 15 years I owned it
These boiler units all require regular preventive maintenance and correct diagnosis.
There are no short cuts. Substitute parts vs OEM are frequently sad stories of repeat trouble.
Not the unit for many busnuts, they take ca$h to keep giving you the goodne$$...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
So,... I find this a little confusing. A propane webasto.... what is different there from a propane water heater?
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on November 09, 2018, 09:33:40 AM
So,... I find this a little confusing. A propane webasto.... what is different there from a propane water heater?
Jim
There is no propane Webasto I know of, and the boondockers add a couple of pumps and heat ex changers and use their water heaters as boilers for a heating system works too I seen a couple in Quartzsite
Sorry - I made the mistake of using 'Webasto' in a generic way.
At the FMCA rally in Gillette we saw the Aqua Hot unit that runs from LP. Seemed like it could do everything that the Diesel units can do but with fewer issues. LP burns cleaner, has less odorous exhaust, and I assume that the unit is quieter than the Diesel units.
Still have the ability to heat domestic hot water, perform space heating, and pre-heat the engine.
The problem with propane when travelling in unfamiliar rural areas away from the FlyingJs of the interstates, is finding it. Sure you can look up locations, but we have found that quite often it is closed, or the place is so small you have to unhook the toad to get the bus close enough to the dispenser. Portable cylinders would be more convenient, but more of a PIA.
Diesel is so much easier, and available everywhere.
I still think the ideal coach is diesel/electric. One fuel only.
JC
I am paying $1.69 for propane and diesel is $3.08, the average AquaHot will use 5 + gals per day of diesel depending on how many people were taking a shower mine did
I just called Lloyd DeGerald and he said Aqua-Hot does make a unit that runs on Propane and they are quieter (as noted above) and require less maintenance. The igniter needs to be cleaned each year but that is about all. However propane burns about 4x more fuel then the Diesel unit does so beware of that. The propane unit was designed for high end 5th-wheels but most have gone back to the Diesel unit. The LP unit is cheaper. The model 450 is the most popular unit.
However if you have a diesel engine then it makes more sense (to me) to have a diesel Aqua-Hot unit. Especially in my case where I have an all-electric bus.
For more info on your needs give Lloyd a call at (501) 588-8426 and he is very helpful over the phone.
137,381 btu's in 1 gal of diesel and 91,502 btu's in a gal of propane how can be 4 times as much ?
Quote from: luvrbus on November 09, 2018, 12:49:28 PM
137,381 btu's in 1 gal of diesel and 91,502 btu's in a gal of propane how can be 4 times as much ?
Dunno Cliff, that is the figure Lloyd gave me over the phone this morning, but maybe he hadn't had his first cup of coffee yet. Maybe less efficient in other ways or something. I encourage you to order one of each and do a comparison and send us an article to run in BCM so everyone will know. ;D Then give me the Diesel unit ;) and I will replace the one in my bus which seemed to have developed a bit of a coolant leak which I plan to dig into tomorrow. Hopefully it is a small leak around the thermostat I installed last summer while in Thayne, WY. I will call Lloyd now and have him send you one of each COD to start your testing. :o
LOL I have both types wise @$#,and AquaHot did the test already according to AquaHot the model 400 -65,000 BTU propane unit uses 1-3 gals per day ,then the model 450-65,000 BTU diesel uses 1 -4 gals per day how about those apples 8)or peanuts
I hate my aquahot as well . when it is time to through it out this type of boiler is the replacement I would install . propane unit not nat. gas
https://www.ecomfort.com/Rinnai-E75CN/p25143.html
95 % efficient and the exhaust is 2" pvc so it could be installed in the basement and the temperature at the end of the exhaust is low enough you can put your hand near it with out burning the skin off like a diesel boiler . and it is very quiet with no stink
yes it would take a bit of head scratching but very doable
dave
Sledhead, I like this...
Perhaps Gary would fund a proper cold weather test of this product by us qualified Canadians?
Way more fuel dollars staying inside the coach, and not blowing out the exhaust pipe is good in anyone's book
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: luvrbus on November 09, 2018, 02:28:09 PM
LOL I have both types wise @$#,and AquaHot did the test already according to AquaHot the model 400 -65,000 BTU propane unit uses 1-3 gals per day ,then the model 450-65,000 BTU diesel uses 1 -4 gals per day how about those apples 8)or peanuts
WOW! I like them peanuts. ;D
I can't speak about Aquahot I don't have one. Years ago I had a Webasto hot air unit and it was quite troublesome. My DIY hot water system uses an Espar Hydronic 10 diesel fired heater. It will heat the bus from below 0° to 65° in about an hour. It keeps me quite comfy at well below 0°. I've been using it for 5 years now with no problems.
It isn't particularly cheap to run. On a recent trip I had the opportunity to fill up just before my stay and again just after. In 8 days, running mostly at night, maybe two days all day I used $75 worth of fuel. I also have nothing to compare noise to, I haven't heard an Aquahot. I can't hear mine inside the bus, often on start up I have to go outside to make sure it's running. I really don't think it's much louder than the exhaust from a standard RV forced air unit. My exhaust goes out the roof. The boiler is only about 6 feet from my bed, sometimes in the dead quiet of the night I will hear it cycling from low to high but, not often.
Quote from: sledhead on November 09, 2018, 03:13:34 PMI hate my aquahot as well . when it is time to through it out this type of boiler is the replacement I would install . propane unit not nat. gas
https://www.ecomfort.com/Rinnai-E75CN/p25143.html ...
I don't know anything about this boiler or how it would work in a bus or what the issues might be re: installation or service life in a high-vibration setting like a vehicle, but I can tell you that I installed a plain Rennai water heater in my house about 7 years ago. It is marvelous -- all the hot water you can want, no problems (or maintenance - I guess I should look into that), perfect service, very low propane costs -- if my experience with the home unit is anything to go by, I recommend Rennai products highly.
(Living in a high-hurricane area, I've looked at the issues of a propane water heater that requires 120V for starting and control functions. My unit pulls less than 100watts (or less than an amp at 120V) at highest current draw conditions so the power requirement is very low. You DO have to have a reliable source of 120V for it, but it's certainly not an energy hog on the electrical control side.)
If that Rinnai unit is used to provide on-demand hot water, the problem would be the water flow. There is a minimum flow required to trigger that type of unit to fire the burners, and that minimum flow would run counter efforts to minimize water use.
Unless you only plan to use it when connected to city water, you might find that you empty your fresh water tank much more quickly. For example, I can wash dishes in the galley of our coach with the water on a very slow flow. So slow, that it would not trigger the unit to heat the water. I'd have to use considerably more water to get it to run hot.
Two of us can shower on a 6-gal hot water heater using a low-flow shower head and by using the shut-off valve in the shower head. With an on-demand unit, I've read reports that taking showers like that doesn't trigger the burner to fire.
When I was exploring ways to have an LP fired hot water heater without venting through the side of the bus, I found an on-demand heater with an exhaust out the bottom. It would have been perfect, but when I read the details I found that the minimum flow to fire the burner was high enough that we would be filling fresh water and dumping the waste tank much more often.
Not saying that on-demand is a bad idea in general, just that it has its negatives as well.
$2500?? How much is a 10 gallon electric water heater? How much for one with a coolant loop. I wonder how it holds up with a few months of non use? The older you get, the more you will appreciate appliances, components that are dead reliable.
There are so many things in a coach conversion to have to deal with maintaing,diagnosing, repairing already.
Back to the programing the Pro/Heat unit seems a lot more reliable than the Webasto,the Pro/Heat uses a low pressure fuel supply and fuel leaks are very seldom a issue with the Pro/Heat
I had the pro heat unit in the MCI and in the 10 years I had the coach I never did any service on it and it always worked . yes I guess I should have serviced it .
The auqa hot system has a small hot water tank in the system and it would not be that hard to do the same kind of system with a propane boiler . As for the waste of waiting for hot water . I all ready have a system I made that is a simple programmable timer and a 1/2" solenoid valve on the hot water line just before the shower / tub that goes back to the fresh water tank so DW never has to wait for hot water and we never waste water
All I am saying is the propane system is way more efficient then the diesel boiler and safer because of the cooler exhaust
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DHZR16F/ref=sspa_dk_detail_4?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B07DHZR16F&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=f0dedbe2-13c8-4136-a746-4398ed93cf0f&pd_rd_wg=yG9mx&pf_rd_r=86B7W7H6VYMSMA1N3PRW&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&pd_rd_w=AbDX4&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pd_rd_r=8fdd8241-e516-11e8-ace8-af1ef0edab11
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B06XD753ZQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
and a T in the hot water line
dave
Dave - your method of avoiding wasted water is a good one and should work on most any unit while waiting for hot water.
My point on the on-demand hot water heaters is that they require a minimum water flow just to trigger the burner to fire. Many on-demand water heaters won't fire if they don't sense adequate flow, so if a sink or shower has a very low flow it won't move enough water past the sensor. Since there is no holding tank, the on-demand units rely on adequate water flow to keep the water from overheating as it travels past the burner.
It's not just about the waste of water while waiting for the hot water to flow through the pipes, it's about wasting water because higher flow is needed to keep the burner fired on many of the on-demand units. Al the water saving features built into many conversions and RVs would work counter to the higher flow demands of some on-demand heaters.
A system such as Aqua Hot that uses an indirect method to heat the water through a heat exchange coil would allow the hot water to flow as slowly as one wanted and still be heated as it passed through the exchange coil.
We have a Webasto 2100 diesel boiler and the associated hydronic heat and multiple zones and hot water heater in our country coach. There is a lot to go wrong I'll admit that but it works great and makes for a very comfortable living environment. When it works it is great but when it doesn't work it sucks because it's complicated. We had a trip this fall where it worked for five days and didn't work one day. Now back at home it works every time I fire it up. Not even sure where to start other than swapping parts. But I'll stick with it because of how nice the hydronic heat is.
The way Craig is setup he has radiant heat in the floors and half way up the walls. Tough to beat that arrangement. Maybe the Webasto is the weak link in all these systems but I think when they have preventative maintenance applied ??? They probably work OK.
Fred
Since I don't have solar panels, when boon docking, I have to run the generator in the morning for about 2 hours. During that time, we make coffee (could do it without the gen on inverter), heat both water heaters, charge the batteries. Running the generator has never really bothered either of us. In my book, a little noise in the morning far outweighs the massive maintenance AquaHots require. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on November 17, 2018, 07:58:08 AM
Since I don't have solar panels, when boon docking, I have to run the generator in the morning for about 2 hours. During that time, we make coffee (could do it without the gen on inverter), heat both water heaters, charge the batteries. Running the generator has never really bothered either of us. In my book, a little noise in the morning far outweighs the massive maintenance AquaHots require. Good Luck, TomC
totally agree :)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ErrBez3RKskBGRnEA
I have a Webasto, not an Aqua Hot, and love it. I wish I would of had the factory test box from the beginning, it would have made repairs a breeze. But I have kept it going for 15 years. It heats the interior, the water heater, and quickly pre-heats the engine by opening one valve. The interior heat is regulated by a wall thermostat, while the Webasto cycles to keep the loop at 140f. No heavy maintenance.
And up here in the cold white north, I think the Webasto based hydronic heating systems are the best way to achieve a super comfortable indoor environment. With 24 volt fans in three zones, you are hardly aware when the system is heating, temperature is very constant. We love it. Yes it is complicated for sure.
Fred
If Aqua Hot and Webasto systems have problems, what about something like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YthaCqkMOs
Not sure if I'd trust it, but they sure are cheap (inexpensive). Anyone ever try something like this?
At about 1-2 amps running it seems quite efficient.
There's no free lunch.
This is already a competitive market, that has existed for decades.
Buy name brand, do the preventive maintenance, and be warm.
Are we discussing coolant boilers or air heaters?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Those units are not much for heating about like the heating units on AC units good for taking a chill off in the morning and they stink running, a cube heater is just as good if you have power
Quote from: richard5933 on November 26, 2018, 06:20:48 PM
If Aqua Hot and Webasto systems have problems, what about something like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YthaCqkMOs
Not sure if I'd trust it, but they sure are cheap (inexpensive). Anyone ever try something like this?
Years ago tried running something like this, Espar Brand (Diesel Fired 12 volt) if I remember right, and they were a nightmare. Had about 8 or 9 in service trucks out in the West Texas Oilfields. Always broke down. Think they weren't designed at the time for rough shaking roads we ran down. That was years ago. Sure Folks have made them better.
Might work OK for the VW camper van if you don't mind the stink on startup but you'd need nearly a dozen of them for a bus.
I'm more inclined towards propane myself. Easier to light off and generally cleaner. Propane RV furnaces are reasonably well refined these days and should be much more efficient than they formerly were. If not then a household forced air furnace most certainly is. If you want a boiler, then I don't see why a propane RV water heater shouldn't work just fine. Fuel costs should be about the same or maybe a little better, and I plan on having propane on board anyway as I like a propane stove top. Lots of discussion about portable vs fixed tanks, portability being cited as an advantage over the fixed tanks and difficulty finding a refilling station, but you know, all it takes is a phone call for them to send a truck out for a refill though you might have to have at least 100 gallon capacity. (And then your genset can run on propane as well if you like.)
I can see where a single fuel is very desirable in OTR trucking but if you are going to have 2 fuels on board anyway, might as well optimize for each one, and fast clean startup is definitely an advantage.
Jim
Hot water tanks rarely are capable of the BTU necessary to employ them alone for winter space heating purposes.
But, they do make some BTU... a potential piece to a layered home brew system...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Water heaters are not particularly efficient, note the hot exhaust. I really feel it's past time for a redesign. But, you can buy a 12 or 16 gallon one if you like (though clearly a 6 gal model will conserve water better) and you can get gas/electric with an engine coolant loop to heat water while you drive. I suppose a little plumbing should let you preheat the engine as well. Presumably if you like long showers you could run the engine to get more hot water maybe? IDK but it seems like it. Also seems a little wasteful.
But with residential gas furnaces running at 98% or better efficiency they deserve a very close look. A little bulky maybe, but how much of that is just ductwork?
Jim
Jim, for your information the engine heating loop on an RV/marine water heater is just a short piece of aluminum pipe welded to the back of the water heater. It takes hours of driving to heat the water this way. But it certainly works and the water will stay warm until the next morning for a shower or two.
One problem with Propane which will probably become more of a problem in the future is that when traveling on the East coast, before going into some tunnels you may be stopped at the entrance and asked to shut off your propane. Not a problem, but one more thing to have to deal with. And then when you come out, you will have to stop again to turn it back on if you want to use it again before you stop again like if it is very cold outside.
Most tunnels here just post signs anymore. Traffic is so heavy, and from job cuts no one cares...until there is some sort of an accident with your propane equipped vehicle. Then the lawyers take over. Also there are more and more natural gas busses and vehicles to deal with. You can't reroute everyone.