Good morning All,
So for my subflooring, I am using a combination of 2 layers. I removed the original flooring and the first layer was 23/32 plywood laid to match the frame members front to back. The final layer will be a 3/8" layer that will be laid in a crossways of the first layer (side to side). When I placed the first layer I placed the plywood against the side rails since the main rails that held the bus seats were 3" wide. So with the width of the bus on the inside about 98," there is about 1-2" of gaps that runs down the bus where the plywood doesn't cover it all. There is no issue with weakness here but my question is, before I put down the second layer, what should I fill these cracks with? I was thinking rock hard putty but was thinking that was not necessary since I'm covering them with another layer and thought maybe expanding foam would be best. Just something to fill the void to keep cold air out and its easier to put in.
As for insulation, I plan to insulate from the underside.
Let me know what you suggest or what you have used for such voids
I wouldn't recommend rock hard putty. The floor will flex with the bus, even if just slightly, as you go down the road. Rock hard putty is, well, rock hard. Doesn't flex well. Foam might work short term, but I've not seen it do well with both sides exposed. It does break down over time as well.
Why not just cut a strip of wood to fill the gap? Just be sure that the top layer overlaps so that the seams are not one above the other. Lots of glue and screws to keep the layers together.
I hope you coated bottom and outside edges,at least, to seal against moisture intrusion from water or condensation.
Quote from: richard5933 on November 02, 2018, 06:32:25 AM
I wouldn't recommend rock hard putty. The floor will flex with the bus, even if just slightly, as you go down the road. Rock hard putty is, well, rock hard. Doesn't flex well. Foam might work short term, but I've not seen it do well with both sides exposed. It does break down over time as well.
Why not just cut a strip of wood to fill the gap? Just be sure that the top layer overlaps so that the seams are not one above the other. Lots of glue and screws to keep the layers together.
Yeah that's why I'm deciding against it. The foam won't really be exposed. It will be against my plastic layer vapor barrier and the top layer plywood. So it would be sealed. And the edges shouldn't line up as most of the lower layer was cut to 7' to maych the beam spacing. But it may at one point and I'll be keeping an eye out for that. I would fill it with my plywood but they vary so much it would be a pain. Some that easily forms to the size would be way easier. I may go with some type of sealant like caulking possibly. I still have a few days so I'll let it ponder.
And as for caoating the plywood, I have a layer of plastic as a vapor barrier to protect the wood
Quote from: jraynor on November 02, 2018, 08:07:50 AM
And as for caoating the plywood, I have a layer of plastic as a vapor barrier to protect the wood
That is a disaster waiting to happen. Water will get trapped between the plastic and the wood and the water will win. I suggest a re-think of your vapor barrier plan prior to moving forward. Plastic sheeting is NOT durable.
Quote from: jraynor on November 02, 2018, 08:07:50 AM
...I would fill it with my plywood but they vary so much it would be a pain. Some that easily forms to the size would be way easier. I may go with some type of sealant like caulking possibly. ...
Sounds like you need to watch a few good videos on how to scribe a line against an irregular edge. It's really quite easy and in the long run will produce results much better than what you're planning to do. Here's one that describes the process really well. It may add a couple extra hours to the floor install, but in the end you'll save yourself many more hours of frustration as the caulking starts to fail in the future.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAM9I6kidx8
There is absolutely no substitute for having parts and components fit together properly. Caulking is not flooring and is not designed to be used the way you're describing. Do it right the first time and you'll have something to be proud of. Fill the gaps with foam or caulking, and one day in the near future you'll find yourself trying to drive a screw into as you install your interior and realizing that foam doesn't hold screws well.
There is going to be another layer of 3/8" plywood that goes over it, not the final floor. It'll be a 2 layer subfloor then the final floor goes on that. This will simply be something that fills the void. If I use screws or nails for something they will hold in the 3/8 plywood
Quote from: Astro on November 02, 2018, 09:10:13 AM
That is a disaster waiting to happen. Water will get trapped between the plastic and the wood and the water will win. I suggest a re-think of your vapor barrier plan prior to moving forward. Plastic sheeting is NOT durable.
Absolutely agree - you need to seal the wood itself, not provide a way for water to remain indefinitely trapped against it.
On the other point, there is no better solution for filling the gaps between your plywood than to use plywood. It doesn't matter if it's fiddly or takes a long time to do - just do the job right and it's one less thing that'll cause you regrets in the future. 'Experimenting' with foam or mastic on something as fundamental (and as difficult to get to later) as the middle layer of your floor doesn't bear thinking about
Jeremy
They used to sell 5x9 plywood. Probably special order now.
Plywood is cheap compared to the cost of having to do this over again down the road.
Do it right and be done with it. You're only at the early steps in your build - way to soon to start taking shortcuts.
Also - not sure what the advantage is of having a multiple layer floor like this over just using a thicker plywood to start with. You'll have to take care to get the layers to bond together so that you don't have lots of squeaking going down the road or when walking in the bus.
I have a favorite phrase that has become known on other forums as "Jim Blackwood's maxim", to wit, "If it's worth doing it's worth doing twice." And the corollary, "If it isn't worth doing twice it may not be worth doing the first time."
This has saved me from tremendous levels of frustration over the years, simply because I go in knowing fully well that I can expect to redo the job before I am satisfied with it. That doesn't always hold of course, I make every effort to do it right the first time and my goal is to NOT have to do it over. But if it turns out that way, it wasn't unexpected, and it is just standard procedure. Makes it WAY easier to accept redoing a job that is "almost good enough".
Now pulling your plywood back up to coat the bottom and edges is a pretty large PITA. But all the fasteners are new and that helps immensely. All your holes have been drilled so it will go back down more easily as long as you line it back up the same.
And here's a thought for you. When adding on to the house I came across a heavy, thick, paintable vapor barrier which came in a 5 gallon bucket, was yellow, went on very thick with a roller and on exposed areas of the original concrete slab has held up to the weather perfectly. (I wish it would deteriorate a little because of the bright color and I don't want to paint over it.) I don't remember whether I bought it from Home Depot or off the internet but for something like this it would be ideal. It was designed to be a vapor barrier. I'm sure you could find a comparable product.
Since it has thickness I'd suggest you coat the bottom, then do the sides as you join it to the other floor so the edge thickness doesn't build up over the number of joints. Then if you have any left over I don't see where it would hurt to coat the top as well.
Jim
You could special order 5x9 full thickness plywood in multi layer,if possible, and eliminate the gaps. It'll be more expensive, but a more satisfying job. You could use the left over to start partitions, cabinets, and enclosures.
https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/panel-products/plywood-sheathing/roseburg-3-4-x-5-x-10-acx-fir-plywood/1251070/p-1444452505105.htm
We used 5/8" silent floor tongue and groove plywood 4X8 sheets ran across the bus from back to front. Worked well. You could also use a product called Red Guard. It too is a moisture barrier for tile and wet walls can be painted or covered.
Short of glass sheathing the plywood (which is what I've done myself, but which I realise is probably OTT) my next choice for sealing it would would be a thick layer of bitumin paint I think, simply because bitumin-coated plywood is available off-the-shelf for roofing and so it's obviously a proven solution. Bitumin paint is quite cheap too.
Also - while I don't know what the reason was for using two layers of plywood rather than a single thicker layer (which all-things-being-equal would be superior I think), you've actually given yourself an excellent opportunity to incorporate a layer of lead-substitute soundproofing material between plywood layers. Again you can buy ready-bonded sheets that are a sandwich of plywood and the lead-substitute stuff, and I think taking the effort now to do the same thing with your floor is something you'll be very pleased you did in the future
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.nauticexpo.com%2Fimages_ne%2Fphoto-g%2F29665-230719.jpg&hash=1aa773558996329a49f9b8f8d0148d6f4b080adf)
Jeremy
On my 4905, I used 3/4" plywood. I had to "rabbit" the edges to get it under the exterior walls, so I could bolt through it at the edges. All my joints(the original only had perpendicular to bus length) were made over the tunnel edges and bay walls, which resulted in a lot of odd pieces left over, and required nearly twice the actual sq ft of the floor. I also removed the seat rails at the same time(toughest stainless steel on the planet).
Prior to installing each piece, it received three or four coats of exterior water sealer(in hindsight I should have used several coats of marine urethane).
The only problem I have had with the floor since installation is that my peel-and-stick tiles I used in the bathroom don't stick so well and tend to move a little in very hot weather. That tiny area of floor will probably be replaced with a sheet vinyl at some point.
I don't think you can even get a single sheet to do the whole width, as you can't physically turn it and get it under the walls.
Whatever you do--do it right, because it is the foundation of everything, and your personal regret will never go away.
Steve
It's easy to get overcomplicated with things, but the liquid vapor barrier is an easy and cost effective solution.
Here is one version:
https://www.wrmeadows.com/air-shield-lm-all-season-liquid-air-vapor-barrier/
And here is another:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N52mBnsMzQ
The poly based materials are more durable than bitumen and more effective in sealing out moisture.
Jim
We have found that tile primer is a must before installing self stick tiles. They'll stay put. Also use liquid floor wax when done to seal joints to keep moisture out. Paint joints liberally with a small paint brush. Wipe off excess perpendicular to the joints.
Quote from: Jeremy on November 04, 2018, 11:48:10 AM
Short of glass sheathing the plywood (which is what I've done myself, but which I realise is probably OTT) my next choice for sealing it would would be a thick layer of bitumin paint I think, simply because bitumin-coated plywood is available off-the-shelf for roofing and so it's obviously a proven solution. Bitumin paint is quite cheap too.
Also - while I don't know what the reason was for using two layers of plywood rather than a single thicker layer (which all-things-being-equal would be superior I think), you've actually given yourself an excellent opportunity to incorporate a layer of lead-substitute soundproofing material between plywood layers. Again you can buy ready-bonded sheets that are a sandwich of plywood and the lead-substitute stuff, and I think taking the effort now to do the same thing with your floor is something you'll be very pleased you did in the future
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.nauticexpo.com%2Fimages_ne%2Fphoto-g%2F29665-230719.jpg&hash=1aa773558996329a49f9b8f8d0148d6f4b080adf)
Jeremy
I've been trying to think of some type of soundproofing but have really been searching for anything. Been too busy on other parts of the bus. Do you know where to get any of it at?
Also the reason for using 2 layers is that it'll add strength since they will be laid perpendicular of each other and this combination provided me with the thickets floor for the best price. It will also provide a much smoother top floor for the first the finished flooring to lay on.
Currently I'm coating the flooring now. I've managed to get about 4 sheets done out of the 9 sheets that it took. Right now I have the 5th &6th drying over night. At this rate I will probably have them all done by wed if I stay at my rate of 2 per day complete. I had an issue today with water getting in around the windows so I had to temporarily seal a window. I'll have to do the same tomorrow for a different window. I'll be glad when I get to the point where I remove and panel over some of the windows and can finally get all of the windows sealed.
What does everyone use for reasealing the window frames to the chassis?
There are lots of specialist companies selling soundproofing materials that show up when you start Googling, but here for instance is some of the lead substitute mat available on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Acoustics-Soundproofing-1-25m-thin/dp/B00BSBMFBM (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Advanced-Acoustics-Soundproofing-1-25m-thin/dp/B00BSBMFBM)
Regarding laying two sheets of plywood perpendicular to each other to increase the strength - that is of course pretty pointless because each of the sheets is already made up of multiple thinner sheets laid perpendicular to each other. This is less true for some utterly horrible interior ply on the market which has a single thick (but invariably stringy, crappy, low-density) ply in the middle faced with two very thin plies on the outside - but any half-decent plywood will have an equal weight of wood fibres running in both directions, and be of equal strength in both.
What you could theoretically do to increase the overall strength would be to lay the two plywood sheets at 45 degrees to each other, but that would be horribly wasteful of wood
Jeremy
I think the main goal with 2-ply is to bridge the cracks. This makes sense if a thin finish covering is being used as it reduces relative movement between the sheets, much like a conventional subfloor/hardwood combination. Helps keep edges from popping up.
Just about anything can be used to lock it all together, some choices being better than others. For instance, that 2nd link I posted could be poured and spread before laying the 2nd layer and they would then be permanently bonded. It should support gap variations of about 1/8" I would think. Or you might find something you like better.
Jim
Call me crazy, but, I would not use 3/8 ply any where for flooring.
If I did, I would use it below the thicker piece.
If my goal was 1 1/4 inch, I'd use 5/8 pressure treated plywood x's 2.
Crazy ;)
I hope the 3/8 plywood is solid without any voids between layers.
the 3/8" will be fine and there will be a finished floor on top of that .
but granite or ceramic tile will not work
dave
My plan it to use vinyl wood look planks that lock together (not the type you can grout or place side by side). This would be great against water, its tough, and it can handle the temperature changes without buckling, and its easy to work with.
Yep. Vinyl flooring is the latest and greatest.
JC
OK this may be a stupid question, but what is wrong with the floor that comes in the bus? Not yours specifically, but definitely as applied to the late MCI buses like the D series.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on November 06, 2018, 10:38:57 AM
OK this may be a stupid question, but what is wrong with the floor that comes in the bus? Not yours specifically, but definitely as applied to the late MCI buses like the D series.
Jim
question is, where can you buy it? It looks just like a roll of wood look vinyl which is fine and all, but for them installing it in a bus without seats, its very easy. versus someone with walls and cabinets and such wouldn't be so easy to work with compared to single plank at a time. another thing would be at what variety can you get it? Lowes, Home depot and plenty of flooring places are now selling the vinyl planks at competitive prices and colors
Jim,
Busnuts often choose to strip the entire floor out, when they find it badly rotten down the back.
2 things do this, deteriorated sealing in the rear wheel wells let the tires introduce moisture into the floor, and the unintended introduction of water from above... many wrongly blame the toilet, but it's really the bus cleaners...
They are taking one trip into the coach with the mop... so it gets loaded up sopping wet, and down the back they go, and work their way forward. Standing puddles are left down the back, water into every nook and cranny, every day, thru its service life.
Also, ribbed flooring is a lovely hard wearing floor treatment, but it is very uncomfortable under bare feet. As the busnut tries to remove it, sometimes the plywood tears apart... project creep, what starts as a floor covering job evolves into subfloor replacement...
There's nothing wrong with a stock floor, so long as it isn't too far gone.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
edit: forgot the 102 DL wrinkle... the earlier DL's had a flex problem, they were known to tear the floor, floor covering separated, ply actually splinter...(as well as the big side panels coming away from the frame work) be sure a DL has had the strengthening modification done to it, if you get one. The 40 footers didn't have this problem. Aftermarket wheelchair installs are the wild west... some were crap, some were fine, from a structural standpoint...
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on November 06, 2018, 10:38:57 AM
OK this may be a stupid question, but what is wrong with the floor that comes in the bus? Not yours specifically, but definitely as applied to the late MCI buses like the D series.
Jim
I see, and thank you. I guess the follow up question would be, what years needed the strengthening mod? I'm guessing the type of service largely determined the level of floor damage, say midwest vs mountainous.
So if possible, inspection should include bouncing on the floor over the wheelwells at the walls and along the rear bulkhead I'm guessing. Any reason why a mostly solid floor couldn't be overlaid with something else? I'm thinking that interlocking planking could be glued down for instance.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on November 07, 2018, 07:24:42 AM
Any reason why a mostly solid floor couldn't be overlaid with something else?
Generally, NO., but the part of the floor that is not in the "mostly" solid part will be covered and still leak and rot undetected beneath the now new floor. It will become either your problem if you keep the bus long enough or someone elses problem after you sell it and either way, it will be coming out or bus will be scrapped. The real question is why, if your going to spend the time and money to convert a bus, not do it right to begin with?
In my case I had to replace (or at least add to) the stock floor because my bus has a dropped-aisle. One annoying thing though is that that I've never come across the material that the stock floor is made from - which has foam bonded to the underside of the plywood for sound and heat insulation, and which also, when squashed-down where the floor rests on a support beam, acts as a useful gasket between the wood and the metal.
Jeremy
PS - If I understood the earlier question correctly, the hard-wearing ribbed floor covering material often used in buses can be bought on rolls for use in horse boxes amongst other things. I don't know about in the US but supplying specialist materials for building horse boxes seems to be big business here in the UK!
Quote from: buswarrior on November 07, 2018, 06:19:48 AMJim,
Busnuts often choose to strip the entire floor out, when they find it badly rotten down the back. ...
Or, if you're really lucky, around the front, down most of the areas on the side and some places in the middle. Don't ask me how I know ... :(
Quote from: Jeremy on November 07, 2018, 09:43:33 AM.. the hard-wearing ribbed floor covering material often used in buses can be bought on rolls for use in horse boxes ...
From the "two countries (or three) separated by a common language" department, I've never heard a "horse trailer" in N. America called a "horse box"* and I've never heard a trailer for carrying horses called anything else in the UK. So that's the translation that may be useful.
(*I've spent less time in Canada that I have the US or UK, so maybe it's a term used there -- they seem to be a little less separated up there, eh?)
Good point I guess. Likewise "Horse Trailer" isn't a term I'm familiar with - to me that would imply a trailer pulled by a horse.
The term 'horse box' in the UK applies to both horse-carrying trailers and horse-carrying trucks, the second of which can sometimes be extremely fancy and include a high-end motorhome in the front part of the vehicle too.
Jeremy
No we have horse trailers up here. "Horse box" is unheard of in Canada. The only horse box I've seen is when shipping a horse to Europe by air. Each horse goes into a custom box that is then loaded into a special aircraft, with attendants to insure the animals are ok during the flight. Lufthansa does that.
JC
Quote from: Jeremy on November 08, 2018, 06:42:59 AMGood point I guess. Likewise "Horse Trailer" isn't a term I'm familiar with - to me that would imply a trailer pulled by a horse.
The term 'horse box' in the UK applies to both horse-carrying trailers and horse-carrying trucks, the second of which can sometimes be extremely fancy and include a high-end motorhome in the front part of the vehicle too.
Jeremy
Yep, similar wording but just different enough meaning to cause problems in understanding. I'm not sure that a conveyance made to carry horses and pulled by a tow vehicle (or built into a larger vehicle) in N. America has flooring like a commercially-operated bus but it does seem to be a good place to start, if someone is looking for such flooring. My impression is that most bus converters in the US want flooring that's more "home-like" and less industrial than commercial-bus flooring but everyone has different ideas. There is no question that that rib flooring is tough and long-lasting but most people I know wouldn't want it in their bus conversion.
I picture putting horse in box, filling it with styrofoam peanuts so the horse doesn't get banged around and shipping box.lol
Those Brits are different... Or is it us?
JC
You could make up your own foam bottomed plywood I suppose. The foam itself is available enough, though you might have to go to a specialty foam supplier to get exactly what you want. The advantage is that the right supplier can bond the foam to the plywood for you. Basically they spray one or both surfaces with contact cement and slap it together, so you can do it yourself but because they commonly bond foams together (as in different densities) it's easier for them to do it. So maybe something like a pressure treated tongue and groove with an inch of 2lb urethane foam bonded to it would be suitable, provided you could get tongue and groove in pressure treated. Maybe ask for a waterproof glue.
Now, I understand that rot never sleeps (sorta like rust that way) and once started will generally continue if any moisture is available. But, if it's only at the edges, AND all those soft edges are going to be covered up by cabinets and such anyway, I don't see much harm in covering it over. Consider if you will, the entire rig is a depreciating asset and will ultimately devolve into a pile of mush. All we are doing is delaying the inevitable, so the real question is, how much effort and where is it really needed? If it'll last 30 years then I think I'll very likely be done with it. That's not to say there isn't merit in building to last, only that the cost and effort could be better spent other places perhaps. Or perhaps not. It's a decision for the owner to make.
Jim