Just wondering. I came close to pulling the trigger on a couple I've seen lately, but not quite there yet.
Jim
One would think as the bad weather comes in sellers would want to sell their coaches before the snow and ice arrive. I know I would not want to travel or view a coach in bad weather. It might be to your advantage to make a reasonable offer. Good luck!
Mike
Coaches sell pretty good in the fall as people get ready to head south for the winter. So it may not be until January or so before you can pick one up for less $$$.
When the price of fuel goes up the price of buses drop
I'm sorry but the subject line made me do it
You mean like a Black Friday sale?
Quote from: bobofthenorth on October 18, 2018, 04:17:00 PM
I'm sorry but the subject line made me do it
You mean like a Black Friday sale?
Damn Bob beat me to it.. :o
Quote from: luvrbus on October 18, 2018, 03:39:24 PM
When the price of fuel goes up the price of buses drop
I agree. I wish fuel would go to $10/gallon. Then there would be some great deals out there. ;D
When the price went to $5/gallon in California, there were fewer traffic jams.
That could happen if this thing with Saudi Arabia blows up.
The price goes down when you walk away from it acting like you don't want it, but obviously have cash on hand. ::)
By far the most influential factor that sets the true closing price is the seller's realistic understanding of the old bus conversion market these days. Once they digest the nasty fact they'll receive pennies on the dollar from the rare buyer that does show up with cash, that is when you buy your bus.
Everything else is just noise. Any seasonal variation would be coincidental as the seller has usually been attempting to sell the bus for quite awhile, often times years, so the reality lightening bolt is just a random event.
Buyers always set the closing price. Sellers NEVER set the closing price. WIthout a buyer, there is no sale. Value, as seen buy the buyer of what he/she is getting for their dollars determine IF there will be a closing and for what price. A sellers best chance on a decent return is based on the condition of their coach as viewed by the buyer. A bus that takes years to sell is probably in bad condition.
I don't know, but in skoolie world if you call it a tiny house you double your sell price, or more.
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on October 18, 2018, 02:19:28 PM
Just wondering. I came close to pulling the trigger on a couple I've seen lately, but not quite there yet.
Jim
are you looking for one to convert or one already converted? There is a 1998 MCI 102 DL with a 60 series near where I live. Says it doesn't start but there is a guy who said he can send a tech and get it running. They are going to scrap it at the end of the month if they don't sell it. 4800 currently. I can send you the listing if youd like
Jonathan - Precisely my point about the current state of interest (read: extremely poor) in taking on a bus conversion project today and barely believable price at which a fairly new coach is being offered out to the market. If it goes to the scrapper, it just reinforces how terrible it is these days.
What's particularly sad yet relevant is what folks doing conversions during the heyday shoveled into these projects. An OTR going out of service was at least three times what this bus owner is asking and that was more than two decades ago.
At this point, even fuel prices are not affecting sold prices. They are so cheap now the seller just needs to find a serious buyer with the greenbacks, at just about any price.
Sounds like there are two very distinct sectors of the 'old bus' market.
There is one sector made up of fairly modern coaches that have recently been in revenue service. Likely much of their useful life has been sucked out of these if they are being sold at prices affordable by the DIY converter. There will be deferred or neglected maintenance, and likely there will be issues with one or more of the automated/electronic systems on board. These buses can be found for not much money and those that don't sell are sent for scrap. No one is going to shed a tear if one of these plastic-capped wonders doesn't drive another day.
Coaches in this sector are often purchased and converted into motor homes. In the end they often look like any other motor home from a distance, with the major difference being that a bus chassis is underneath instead of a purpose-made motor home chassis. People buying coaches like this for conversion are not looking for a piece of history, they are looking for a working chassis that either is running or can be made to run at not much cost and then converted into a working motor home.
Then there is the second sector of the bus conversion world. This is where more classic buses will fall, and people buying these are often looking for a more unique vehicle that makes a statement. Like me, many have a desire to drive vintage vehicles with that special 'something' about them. These are the buses that we all mourn over when we see them going for scrap or rusting away in a back lot somewhere.
I am willing to put out a good deal of money and effort in order to keep our old 4108 running and looking good. Just like I did with all the vintage and classic cars I've owned and/or restored over the years. To me it's much more than a rolling chassis and I enjoy the process of maintaining and restoring vintage vehicles. The hobby aspect adds much of the value to me, and the hobby side of owning a vintage bus conversion is why I'm willing to spend so much time & money on it. No way I'd ever do that with a newer bus conversion - it just wouldn't have the same appeal to me.
Back to the original question...
In my opinion the end of the year question would only really apply to commercial owners that are looking to get assets off their books before the end of the tax year. Since most revenue coaches will have been depreciated to nearly zero by the time they are sold, I'm not even sure that this applies. When I've sold vintage/classic vehicles privately, if one hasn't sold by the time the weather turned cold I either pulled it from the market or just made the decision to hold tight until the spring when buyers are more plentiful.
If I was in the market and saw something I liked I'd be making an offer. Wait till the end of the year and it may be gone to someone else. Since I didn't buy my bus to resell, the only thing that mattered was whether or not it was worth it to me, and if it met the needs I had.
There was a time we could convert a old bus and make a few dollars those days are gone unless you did the conversion and rehab like my friend Boomer and even with him I don't know he broke even when he sold both of his.
Some people like the classic look but that is all they have, it is not going to go up in value makes no sense to pay 50 or 60k for a old bus when you try and resell your lucky to get of it half back.
Keeping a old bus on the road in good shape costs a fortune over the years.For under a 100k you can buy a late model factory shell and conversion from conversion co with a modern power train (4 stroke) and suspension that gets better fuel mileage rides and drives better, better availability for parts and can buy engine oil for 1 in a drug store.
Don't get me wrong I like the classic buses but I am not going to invest money in one with the idea it's a good investment because they are not, they fall under liability on the bottom line
Quote from: luvrbus on October 19, 2018, 11:23:00 AM
...Some people like the classic look but that is all they have, it is not going to go up in value makes no sense to pay 50 or 60k for a old bus when you try and resell your lucky to get of it half back.
Keeping a old bus on the road in good shape costs a fortune over the years.For under a 100k you can buy a late model factory shell and conversion from conversion co with a modern power train (4 stroke) and suspension that gets better fuel mileage rides and drives better, better availability for parts and can buy engine oil for 1 in a drug store.
Don't get me wrong I like the classic buses but I am not going to invest money in one with the idea it's a good investment because they are not, they fall under liability on the bottom line
Anyone buying a bus, whether converted or not, as an investment is nuts. And not the good kind of nuts. Nothing about what we did with our 4108 was done as an investment in anything other than our ability to have fun and enjoy owning and using the bus.
Some people are doing this to have a practical and cost-effective way to travel in a bus conversion, and others (like me) find joy in the old classic buses and are willing to pay for and put up with all that comes with the addiction of vintage vehicles. Neither way is more correct.
Years ago my brother and I bought a '66 MGB and did a frame-off restoration. We could easily have bought a brand new Miata for less money and effort. But, we weren't seeking the end product - we wanted the experience and joy that came from the long and sometimes very frustrating process. Same with our bus. It's all about the journey, and I don't really worry about the destination.
I wouldn't buy a electronics controlled bus at any price, especially one that is retired. I have a '82 GMC RTS that is perfect for me and I can fix anything on it. I don't worry about resale, I will never sell it.
We been looking for only 1 type bus in the past month I want a 2010 X3-45 Prevost only because of emissions,resale, since we plan on traveling just 2 years,for service,parts, 2 slides ,because it was the last year Prevost used the series 60 and because there are some tax benefits left on a 2010. lol I am a bottom line guy and will admit it.The kids can finish the MCI or sale it I don't have time for it
There is a clawfoot bathtub for sale in the Prescott Craigslist.
Quote from: Geoff on October 19, 2018, 03:42:15 PM
There is a clawfoot bathtub for sale in the Prescott Craigslist.
Forget that Geoff we have moved on 8) the kids can deal with the tub
so what happened to change your mind from the M C I to a newer prevost ? the slides ?
dave
Quote from: sledhead on October 20, 2018, 05:02:14 AM
so what happened to change your mind from the M C I to a newer prevost ? the slides ?
dave
I reached a point I don't want to work on it anymore and I still have a ways to go,now I need to move the bedroom windows forward about 2 ft for the floor plan chosen and I don't want to do it.All BS aside my age is the biggest factor
When my bus - 1980 MC-5C Navajo Nation - came out of service in 2000, it sold and was imported to Canada at $20K. The importer passed it to the first conversion owner after $5K of work at $30K. That guy converted it poorly, I bought it for $30K, fixed the electrical and mechanical conversion issues, fixed a lot of bus mechanical, installed a new engine, and now I've installed an automatic. I have at least $45K in it. It's close to perfect mechanically, passes a commercial DOT every year, needs cosmetic work and the conversion finished. People now would say it's worth $5K, maybe $10K. I ain't going to sell it, it can molder once I finish with it, unless I find someone to pass it on to.
Resale value is not a consideration for us. Wasn't when we bought it and still isn't today.
However, we have done some comparisons to what else we could have spent our money on.
We paid $46,000 for our bus. Much more than many would have spent, and maybe much more than we should have. But this bus had only 41,000 miles and was cosmetically and mechanically in about as good a condition as could be found in a 44-year-old bus. The conversion was high-quality and the layout worked for us. We've spent additional money since buying the bus to update/modernize most of the house systems and to do some needed maintenance and repairs (mainly due to non-use). We're into the bus for about $58,000 total - about the same as many others that started with a much less expensive bus.
Before buying our first bus, we shopped around at length for a good used diesel pusher motor home. It's easy to find a 35-40 foot model of decent quality still in usable condition at prices ranging from the upper 30s to the 60s. However, when the cost of the updates and repairs needed on these S&S motor homes was factored in, we'd still be in for at least as much as we spent on our bus. Possibly a bit less, but probably in the end about the same. Seems like modern motor homes don't age all that well and are prone to various system failures. And then we'd still only have a fiberglass shell wrapped around a S&S construction sitting on top of a chassis which was much less road-worthy than our bus. And there is nothing unique about a S&S motor home - they just don't have the same vibe as a vintage bus.
The final deciding factor for us was the safety issue. Since we spend much more time on the road than in a campground, we put being safe and road-worthy at the top of our priority list. After our collision last year we are glad we did. Nothing yet has convinced me that the fiberglass nose of a S&S diesel pusher would have allowed us to walk away from a head-on collision. That 2 seconds of use more than fully reimbursed us for the money spent on our bus.
Not all S&S as people call them are junk the entry level are nothing but junk.the Newell,Vogue,Foretravel, Country Coach and a few others are well built but come at a price since they were built from the frame up most where,I have watched the Vogue and Newell being built they didn't cut any corners they were built like a tank
this has always been a hobby.
And hobbies co$t money, they rarely make money.
Demand drives price.
Travel costs money, regardless of mode. To feel better, the costs of the conversion have to be apportioned to its use.
For instance, a 3000 mile round trip to Florida for a family of 5 "co$t" more than the fuel money we all like to think it "co$t"... and would have cost how many thousands with hotel and restaurants? Money wasn't "saved" it was part of what got spent on the coach...
And the co$t to stay occupied while working on it...
What mischief would we get into without the bus to occupy us?
That is the "value" of a hobby, we mess with stuff, and spend some ca$h being the masters of our little universe.
None of this is likely recoverable, nor should we expect it to.
Oh, there always were peeps making money with conversions, lots of peeps quietly paying to have things done, that they won't do themselves. That hasn't changed one bit.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on October 20, 2018, 07:46:02 AM
this has always been a hobby.
And hobbies co$t money, they rarely make money.
Demand drives price.
Travel costs money, regardless of mode. To feel better, the costs of the conversion have to be apportioned to its use.
For instance, a 3000 mile round trip to Florida for a family of 5 "co$t" more than the fuel money we all like to think it "co$t"... and would have cost how many thousands with hotel and restaurants? Money wasn't "saved" it was part of what got spent on the coach...
And the co$t to stay occupied while working on it...
What mischief would we get into without the bus to occupy us?
That is the "value" of a hobby, we mess with stuff, and spend some ca$h being the masters of our little universe.
None of this is likely recoverable, nor should we expect it to.
Oh, there always were peeps making money with conversions, lots of peeps quietly paying to have things done, that they won't do themselves. That hasn't changed one bit.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
The sad part of the "hobby" is when people spend the money and never make it home with the "hobby" and it happens often
If you follow Facebook interest, I think the turnkey, fair to above average coach market is on the rise.
The Excellent to high dollar (+ $60K) is stagnant.
The 6 figure plus is a different realm.
Those wanters are mostly leasing. :)
I'm certainly in the bottom end of the spectrum, but what I'm looking at are D series in the 5-10K range, up to an absolute maximum of 17 in a conversion or possibly partially converted bus, cash on the barrel head.
What do I want, and expect to get for that? Realistically, a '94 DL with under 700K miles (500 preferred), usable tires, brakes, batteries, A/C and alloy wheels with no damage or rust and no known electronics issues. 60 series engine and automatic transmission. Based on what I've seen I don't think that is too much to ask. But I'm not going to Nevada or Cali for it and will only consider one from there if the cost plus delivery puts it under my limits. So, up to $10K cash in hand for all the above at my location. For a clean attractive bus I'd pay that today and I have the money. A 40' D series would be something I'd be interested in also.
To some of you this might not seem reasonable. But, I've been watching for nearly 6 months now and I know that it is, and at auction I might do much better than that. It's just a matter of finding the right bus. For instance, I'm not even going to look at a bus with steel wheels unless it costs at least $1500 less than a comparable one with alloy wheels. That's the absolute minimum it appears to cost to switch. I will not consider a bus with inoperable A/C. I will not consider anything over my mileage limits. I will not consider anything but the barest minimum of exterior damage. The seats now, who cares. But if it doesn't run forget about it, and I'm very leery of anything from the rust belt (that sort of includes you too Canada.)
That still includes a lot of territory, and If Mike in LA has a bus that meets my requirements I am willing to talk. It could come to that. But I'm not automatically bouncing right on up to my cash limits either. After all, I'm starting to see some pretty attractive auction items.
Jim
Quote from: Jim Blackwood on October 20, 2018, 01:02:58 PM
I'm certainly in the bottom end of the spectrum, but what I'm looking at are D series in the 5-10K range, up to an absolute maximum of 17 in a conversion or possibly partially converted bus, cash on the barrel head.
What do I want, and expect to get for that? Realistically, a '94 DL with under 700K miles (500 preferred), usable tires, brakes, batteries, A/C and alloy wheels with no damage or rust and no known electronics issues. 60 series engine and automatic transmission. Based on what I've seen I don't think that is too much to ask. But I'm not going to Nevada or Cali for it and will only consider one from there if the cost plus delivery puts it under my limits. So, up to $10K cash in hand for all the above at my location. For a clean attractive bus I'd pay that today and I have the money. A 40' D series would be something I'd be interested in also.
To some of you this might not seem reasonable. But, I've been watching for nearly 6 months now and I know that it is, and at auction I might do much better than that. It's just a matter of finding the right bus. For instance, I'm not even going to look at a bus with steel wheels unless it costs at least $1500 less than a comparable one with alloy wheels. That's the absolute minimum it appears to cost to switch. I will not consider a bus with inoperable A/C. I will not consider anything over my mileage limits. I will not consider anything but the barest minimum of exterior damage. The seats now, who cares. But if it doesn't run forget about it, and I'm very leery of anything from the rust belt (that sort of includes you too Canada.)
That still includes a lot of territory, and If Mike in LA has a bus that meets my requirements I am willing to talk. It could come to that. But I'm not automatically bouncing right on up to my cash limits either. After all, I'm starting to see some pretty attractive auction items.
Jim
So, your talking rolling seated shell ?
$17K in a Series 60 conversion with plumbing, tanks, house batteries house AC and inverter w/gen wired seems pretty far fetched to me.
Yep, to me too. So I'm not looking for that. If I happen across anything close I'll look.
No, the much more likely find is a seated coach. Don't need the seats obviously, may or may not be able to sell them so I won't count on that, most likely they will end up scattered amongst a few selected dumpsters somewhere. Or the landfill, depends on how energetic I'm feeling.
Anyway, my concept of a conversion is NOT a typical 2 bedroom house on wheels with all the amenities, and I see no real good reason yet for taking down all the overhead. Certainly the HVAC, lighting and storage could be handy. So I'm not making any plans to go ripping out anything other than the seats right off the bat. I have no real issue with the toilet being at the rear of the bus. Capacity may be a bit short but there are ways around that. I see no real reason why a shower couldn't be back there too. Yes I'd have to walk around the bed but a standard Queen size is 60" wide which leaves a 3 ft wide isle on one side. Surely that is enough, provided the overhead can be kept out of the way. Then I need a room for a workshop. Where that is located is an open question but the most likely spot seems to be amidships with the galley and dining area forward. Pretty common floorplan I would think with the exception of the head and shower locations. and shouldn't be too hard to integrate most of the existing overhead.
Jim