I've heard gear oil stinks because of the high sulpher content. I don't see myself as a test subject for 0 sulpher fuel. Does anyone think a quart to 150 gallons is enough to make a difference? Thats only 1 to 600. Maybe I should run a little more.
Unless you are a petrochemical engineer, you should not be formulating your own fuel additives, IMO.
The only beneficial effect of sulfur in diesel fuel is to provide some additional lubricity, which helps keep injector wear down. Theoretically, ULSD fuel has been treated at the refinery with lubricity improvers to compensate for this.
That being said, there is no long-term data on what problems ULSD might cause. However, it is a sure bet that simply adding sulfur back into the fuel will not solve them, since the problems are far more likely to be due to side-effects of the process used to remove the sulfur, or the addition of chemicals to improve lubricity, not from the lack of sulfur (which is, after all, an impurity) itself.
When you couple that with the unknown effects of any other ingredients in gear oil (or whatever you are contemplating), the potential risks FAR outweigh the potential benefits.
If you have a Detroit, I refer you to DD publication 7SE270, available for free on the Detroit web site, which specifically advises against putting untested additives into diesel fuel. If your engine were under warranty, this would void it. Even if not, why would you want to take a chance going against manufacturer's recommendations?
-Sean
Sean, I have read 3 stories in the last few days about possible problems with the new fuel. It seemed like it could be somewhat widespread. I've got to run about 3000 miles in the next week. One article mentioned gauling of the moving parts of the injectors. I have burned my waste oil in my cummins at 1 to 100 for years. If lubricity is the culprit, Im going to "put some in" in one form or another. I really was looking for an answer from a petro chemical engineer. I'm curious how many PPM they took out and how many in the same ammount of a quart of gear oil. Detroit doesn't have ATF on their approved list of additives either, but it sure makes e'm run good. I just don't want to cruise up the mountain on my way to San Diego, cool it off going down the other side and hang an injector out in the middle of no where at midnight.
I've read three stories in the last few days about how my credit card number is being stored on hotel room key cards. The internet is a great medium for spreading rumors like wildfire, even ones that are demonstrably false, and whose falsehood is widely publicized.
As an engineer, I can tell you without equivocating that the handful of stories you have read are just that -- stories. Which is to say, I have no doubt that so-and-so has an injector problem, and that his engine has been running fine for ten years, and the only thing that's "changed" is the fuel. But the law of large numbers says that some number of people were going to have a problem with injectors this month, whether the fuel changed or not, and, without detailed scientific analysis, the people writing these stories have no basis whatsoever for attributing the failures to the new fuel -- it's purely anecdotal. In order to have real test results, the tests need to be run under controlled conditions.
Except in a handful of locations, the new fuel has just not been on the market long enough for these kinds of problems to manifest themselves. Will ULSD ultimately prove to have some problems? Maybe so. I would guess that the first people to notice will be fleet operators with millions of miles per year of operations. And, believe me, the minute they can say definitively that there is a problem, the hue and cry will be raised, and the first people to jump on the bandwagon will be the engine manufacturers, who have to warranty these sorts of issues.
When I see a bulletin from DD telling me I should put additives in the fuel, I'll do it. Otherwise, it's money down the drain, or worse -- other components in unknown additives can be doing real damage.
I hasten to point out, by the way, that the additive business is a huge market, and they have billions at stake. I would bet real money that the additive industry is behind at least some of the fear-mongering around this issue (they do, after all, have a reputation for having done exactly that in the past -- look at the massive fraud judgment against Slick-50). I note that every diesel fuel additive on the market is now claiming "protection" for ULSD fuels.
As to the waste oil comment, I don't know what Cummins has to say (I don't own one), but Detroit explicitly forbids waste oil, in any quantity, in the fuel. This is from experience (a number of fleet operators, including Greyhound, practiced this technique for years). What they discovered was the acids in the waste oil, and the acid byproducts created during combustion, did real damage to the cylinder liners, heads, and valves. The large fleet operators all figured this out too, and the practice was soon discontinued, even though that meant finding another responsible way to dispose of waste oil.
The bottom line of what I am saying is that you are likely to do more harm than good by guessing at what substance to put in your engine to counteract some alleged problem with the fuel that has yet to be substantiated. You are unlikely to put enough miles on or run enough fuel through your engine in the next year, or maybe even in your lifetime, for such a problem to be a real issue for you, whereas there are vehicles that will put a quarter million miles on the clock in the next year -- let those guys find the problems (if any) and noodle through what products will solve them. Then you can start using the same stuff the big boys are using (again, if any), with little harm done.
-Sean
Sean, the first time we went thru this there were problems. I don't know how it affects warrantys as the fuel is federally mandated. 10 years ago I paid out of my pocket. That time it was mostly O rings to replace. Obviously the 2007 engines are not going to present any problems and probably not anything new enough to still be covered by warranty. If you don't fall into either of those groups you have defective equiptment anyway, and they want to destroy it. There are govt grants available to repower 2 stroke units. They will pay half the cost of a repower to 4 stroke on commercial units including trucks. A 2 stroke injector fires every time the crank turns and a 4 stroke injector fires half as often. Maybe I'll run her with the valve covers off and just spray WD40 until I'm sure the new stuff works right in my dinosauer 6V92!
I remember the O-ring fiasco (and I'm hoping the fuel industry does, too).
Still, I would not just guess at this. If you're determined to put something in, at least use a commercial formulation, that's been tested at least as far as not doing any additional harm. As I said earlier, undoing the effect of the new fuel is not likely to be as simple as just putting sulfur back in.
-Sean
If your talking ULSD fuel - you shouldn't be putting it in anything that wasn't designed for it anyway - use the regular LSD - FWIW
Niles,
It's the other way 'round -- LSD can't be used in '07 and newer engines. ULSD is supposed to work in everything. ULSD is already the only fuel available in several markets, and "regular" LSD is being phased out completely nationwide (for road diesel). So, soon, you will have no choice -- only ULSD will be available. Most outlets already carrying ULSD carry only that, as they have only one set of diesel tanks. The costs of supporting two different fuel formulations for pre- and post-'07 engines would be astronomical.
-Sean
Sean - my understanding is that, except for California, LSD will be available until at least 2010 - I understand small outlets with only one tank have no choice, but I have spoke with TA and Flying j and they have told me they will carry LSD until it is not legal to do so. So I'm putting off worrying about it till then. By then we'll should have had significant experience with it to know what the ramifications are. I just won't go to small vendors (which I don't do now anyway). Is this what you've heard? Or have I been getting bad info?
No, that's about right. But 2010 is right around the corner.
At the moment, ULSD is the only thing available in all of Canada, plus California. Many smaller retailers elsewhere will soon carry only ULSD too.
A quick check of Flying-J's site shows about 10% of their US outlets carrying only ULSD (and, of course, a few carrying only the older stuff).
So, yes, if you stick to the big outlets, you should be able to find the higher-sulfur fuel for another couple years. But I predict that it will get scarcer and scarcer towards the end of that period, as refineries ramp down production.
-Sean
Many of the fuel outlets are dragging their feet to go to ULSD. The engine manufacturers are now making the new 07 engines. You won't see the new engines at the truck dealers until March or April. All of the truck manufacturers are predicting that sales will be slow until late 3rd quarter when everyone starts realizing that the new particulate traps are not going to be a problem-except for the additional $6000 on medium and $10,000 additional on big truck price tags. You can bet that the oil companies have taken great pains to compensate for the lubricity of the new fuel. Electronic injectors have very close tolerances, and many are running at or above 25,000psi.
When I spec a new truck (Freightliner and Western Star), I always include a Davco fuel/water separator, and that's it. I'll put a water filter, bypass oil filter, etc if the customers want, but the vast majority of trucks do not have much more than that. All you have to do is to look at what is used industry wide to see what works. Huge fleets like JB Hunt, Schneider, Swift, Werner, etc that have 10's of thousands of trucks, use the trucks from the factory. Most change their engine oil around 35,000 miles (with oil analysis). The only additional fuel additive I'd use is for winter cold weather to keep the fuel from freezing (additives emulsify the water droplets so they cannot form into ice crystals-the water is still there-just cannot form ice).
If you have a mechanical 2 stroke engine (non electronic), those injectors are not as tight as the electronic 4 stroke injectors and flow just about anything that is combustible. But-adding filters won't hurt the engine unless they leak. As said many times- oil analysis is always the best way to tell what your engine is doing. I would not add any type of oil to the fuel. Good Luck, TomC