I've never had a drop of water in my filter canisters. Lots of dirt and particulate, but no water that I can discern. However, I suspect that after 44 years there is bound to be water sitting at the bottom of the tank.
Question is, what is the best course of action? Do I need to do anything? Should I just let whatever water is in there stay there or make an effort to find out and remove it?
Removing the tank is not an option. Not going there for lots of reasons.
There is a drain plug in the bottom of the tank. Pretty certain what will happen if I pull the plug out. But, with a tank full of fuel that doesn't seem like a good plan either.
Anyone have any luck dropping a tube into the bottom of the tank to pull out some of what's down there to test for water? Seems like if that's possible I'd know if I have anything to worry about before going through more extreme measures. If there is a way to do this, any suggestions on the best way to get a tube all the way down to the bottom? Would a long piece of copper pipe make it all the way or are there baffles?
There's any number of flavours of weasel piss that will move any water that is in your tank either into your filters or through your injectors. I'm sure you'll get lots of advice in that regard but that's the way I'd go. Just tell yourself you're getting better mileage from the snake oil and the water removal will be an added benefit.
Quote from: bobofthenorth on September 14, 2018, 08:19:32 PM
There's any number of flavours of weasel piss that will move any water that is in your tank either into your filters or through your injectors...
That's what got me started thinking about all this. I read about something called Clean Diesel by Power Systems and then did some research. Apparently there is a mix of opinions on the wisdom of using these things due to how they might effect the injectors and/or engine in general.
What I'm hoping for is some first-hand experience either pumping out the water or using one of these chemical methods for water removal, hopefully in a Detroit Diesel.
If you can reach the bottom of the tank with a stick, hose, or wire, there is a compound called "KolorKut" that will react with the water and turn purple. available from fuel suppliers, or Amazon. Just smear some on the bottom 3" and dip.
At least you would then know if you have water in tank.
Quote from: dickegler on September 15, 2018, 05:12:49 AM
If you can reach the bottom of the tank with a stick, hose, or wire, there is a compound called "KolorKut" that will react with the water and turn purple. available from fuel suppliers, or Amazon. Just smear some on the bottom 3" and dip.
At least you would then know if you have water in tank.
Sounds like a good plan for starting. I've ordered the KolorKut.
Now I just need to figure out what the best thing to stick into the tank to reach the bottom will be. My fear is sticking something in the filler neck and having it get stuck on something.
Any suggestions? Anyone have a preferred method for manually checking fuel level in a tank on a 4108? I assume it would be similar to a 4905 tank.
Quote from: dickegler on September 15, 2018, 05:12:49 AMIf you can reach the bottom of the tank with a stick, hose, or wire, there is a compound called "KolorKut" that will react with the water and turn purple. available from fuel suppliers, or Amazon. Just smear some on the bottom 3" and dip.
At least you would then know if you have water in tank.
Frequently used in aviation for checking fuel. It works.
There are two kind of "water treatment" additives. One is a dispersant - these break up water molecules and mix them with fuel so that they'll burn off when you drive and burn the fuel. (Some components will wear or rust if there's much molecular water content in fuel.) The other is a coagulant, it makes molecules of water stick together and precipitate out of the fuel and lie on the bottom of the tank.
I'd check with the water sensitive paste that Dick talks about. If you find a layer of water, can you get a siphon/pump tube to the bottom of your tank? If so, you can gently pump the water off the bottom; this has the side effect vacuuming out trash and dirt, although I don't think I'd rely on this much if a tank really needed cleaning.
Just dump a gallon of Diesel Power Service in and the water will be gone. Good Luck, TomC
I've pulled and cleaned tanks on both my coaches. The dirt and sludge is layered on bottom of tanks. It will not siphon out. It works loose as you travel and gets pulled into fuel intake over time and into filters. Remove and thoroughly clean tank and be done with frequently filter changes. Every commercial fuel tank in country several years ago had to be replaced with new with new tanks with designs to warn of and contain leaks. You don't get near the amount of dirt and water like you got before then.
Except in states where hurricanes hit and flood waters find their way into underground tanks. Now that's a concern, I would think.
You are worrying for nothing,the new fuel has a water dispersant,plus the fuel pump returns almost a gpm of heated fuel to the tank if you had water it would be mixed so the filters could take care of it.The pickup tube is 1.5 inches from the bottom of the tank so is the return if you had water it would show up in the filters.If you are that worried drop a 10 dollar phone camera from Amazon in the tank and take a look with the mileage on your coach I bet it's clean
I used to loosen up the drain plugs on my Eagles to drain a little bit of fuel to see if there was any water or sludge, but I never did find anything. For all the reasons already stated, you probably should not be concerned, especially with your above average coach.
Richard, does your coach have a fuel gauge? None of mine do so I use a aluminum yard-stick to dip tank. I painted the backside flat black, so fuel level shows easily. Yard stick is precision bent ;) to fit down filler. no fear of getting stuck. High tech stuff!
Quote from: pd4501-771 on September 15, 2018, 06:28:45 AM
Richard, does your coach have a fuel gauge? None of mine do so I use a aluminum yard-stick to dip tank. I painted the backside flat black, so fuel level shows easily. Yard stick is precision bent ;) to fit down filler. no fear of getting stuck. High tech stuff!
No gauge. I thought about using a piece of 3/8 copper tubing, also precision bent. the one thing that has me slightly concerned is the whistle assembly which is inside the filler neck. Not sure how much space is in there around the mechanism, and it would be just my luck to get something down to the bottom of the tank and then have it get stuck on the retrieval.
If, like you said, you have a drain plug at the bottom of the tank, just remove it. That is why it is there. Simple. Let it flow in a clean container for a few seconds and replace the plug. It will be obvious if there is water or not. It will be a little messy, so wear some gloves and coveralls or old clothes. Nothing "extreme" about it.
JC
Quote from: lostagain on September 15, 2018, 07:06:20 AM
If, like you said, you have a drain plug at the bottom of the tank, just remove it. That is why it is there. Simple. Let it flow in a clean container for a few seconds and replace the plug. It will be obvious if there is water or not. It will be a little messy, so wear some gloves and coveralls or old clothes. Nothing "extreme" about it.
JC
Won't the 150+ gallons sitting in the tank cause it to push out with enough force as to make reinserting the plug difficult? Never done that before, but it seems like more than a little messy.
Removing the drain plug is what I do. It is a little messy but maintain your cool and be sure not to put the plug back crooked.
I sometimes remove the vent and pull a vacuum on the the tank and remove the plug a trick I learn from changing the main hydraulic control valve on a Gradall with 100 gals of hydraulic fluid above your head
Little tight to pull the vent on a 41or 49 series GM. The air duct is right in the way. Richard, don't worry about this now. Wait till spring and tank is pretty low on fuel. Then try the plug if you have any talent to hang on to it when fuel gushes out and washes all over your hand and arm. Get a surplus 55 gallon plastic drum. Cut the end off so it just clears bottom of coach. If drums are cheap, do a second one or cut the other end also., so when you drop the plug in the first tub, you can slide it out and quickly slide the second one in while you fish the plug out of the first one. Btw, those drum ends are great for drining coolant at radiator or draining oil. Clean thoroughly after any use though.
Buy a 9 gal mortar tub from HD for 6 bucks the 18 gals tubs are 12 bucks if you loose more than a few gals your in trouble anyways
Quote from: TomC on September 15, 2018, 05:48:53 AM
Just dump a gallon of Diesel Power Service in and the water will be gone. Good Luck, TomC
only if the pickup tube goes to the bottom ?
Quote from: lostagain on September 15, 2018, 07:06:20 AM
If, like you said, you have a drain plug at the bottom of the tank, just remove it. That is why it is there. Simple. Let it flow in a clean container for a few seconds and replace the plug. It will be obvious if there is water or not. It will be a little messy, so wear some gloves and coveralls or old clothes. Nothing "extreme" about it.
JC
Wear safety glasses as it can splash into your eyes and make getting the plug back in difficult. Also park the bus on a bit of an incline so if it runs out on the ground it will not run under your tuxedo. ;D This another great reason to have a pit like I do. (I mean, I do wish I had a pit). ;)
Small plane pilots drain fuel out of the tank before every takeoff so it is no big deal. Good to drain it into a glass container so you can see what is in there. Not sure about the 747 pilots, never flown one of those BIG birds...yet. :D
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on September 15, 2018, 09:20:06 AM
Wear safety glasses as it can splash into your eyes and make getting the plug back in difficult. Also park the bus on a bit of an incline so if it runs out on the ground it will not run under your tuxedo. ;D This another great reason to have a pit like I do. (I mean, I do wish I had a pit). ;)
Small plane pilots drain fuel out of the tank before every takeoff so it is no big deal. Good to drain it into a glass container so you can see what is in there. Not sure about the 747 pilots, never flown one of those BIG birds...yet. :D
I fueled Lear jets and Gulfstreams for BP and others...
They used fancy chrystal Double Old Fashioned glasses from the galley.
Even gave me one once.
And some left over sandwiches made from croissants.
over wing fuel. we had a pillow to lay on the wing :)
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 15, 2018, 10:45:44 AM
I fueled Lear jets and Gulfstreams for BP and others...
They used fancy chrystal Double Old Fashioned glasses from the galley.
Even gave me one once.
And some left over sandwiches made from croissants.
over wing fuel. we had a pillow to lay on the wing :)
People that own a Gulf Stream can afford it,a good friend in Scottsdale owns a GS650, filling it with fuel would max out my American Express ,6500 gals @ $8.19 a gal was over 50k lol 7000 mile range with 6800 gals of fuel the fuel economy is not the best
You are assuming the first time he does this, the plug wont slip away from him and roll some where under the coach, while the fuel just keeps pouring out.... :'(
"We must be Verry Quiet, we're hunting Wabbits. Huhuhuhuh."
Rabbit holes indeed!
Jim
Quote from: chessie4905 on September 15, 2018, 11:28:50 AM
You are assuming the first time he does this, the plug wont slip away from him and roll some where under the coach, while the fuel just keeps pouring out.... :'(
Always best to be chewing gum before crawling under just in case the plug gets away. 8)
LOL you are going to get a sleeve full of diesel where you have 20 gals or 150 gals in the take if not careful
Quote from: luvrbus on September 15, 2018, 12:11:29 PM
LOL you are going to get a sleeve full of diesel where you have 20 gals or 150 gals in the take if not careful
That is why I like to have a petcock on my drain. :o
I believe I mentioned that I "loosened" the plug on the tank (when I was successful in doing so) so as not to take it out, but to let it drizzle fuel out past the few threads still holding. It takes longer to drain a sample, but it is safer. I do not recommend trying this when it is cold out, because if you bobble the plug, your fingers will get numb trying to get it back in again past the flowing stream (now, how do I know that?). ::)
Quote from: luvrbus on September 15, 2018, 11:15:06 AM
People that own a Gulf Stream can afford it,a good friend in Scottsdale owns a GS650, filling it with fuel would max out my American Express ,6500 gals @ $8.19 a gal was over 50k lol 7000 mile range with 6800 gals of fuel the fuel economy is not the best
BP dispatched this one Gulf to deliver a proprietary lithium battery for a downhole logger...nothing else. OKC (i think) to Prudhoe.
If I were going to unscrew the drain plug. I would first buy a rubber bung of the right size to tightly fit in the plug hole, and make a stick just long enough to hold that bung up against the tank when it's propped against the ground. Then, if the drain plug should not cooperate, you can easily and quickly jam the bung into the hole and keep it there with the stick while you decide what to do next. Always have a Plan B!
I've thought about putting a Fumoto-style drain valve under my fuel tank, but it would get knocked right off if anything were to hit it, so maybe that's not the best solution.
When I worked as a Helicopter Landing Officer on offshore installations in the North Sea I had to test every pre-fuelling and post-fuelling sample of Jet-A1 with test strips that would turn purple if there were any detectable water in the fuel. Fortunately I never had a bad sample, but if it had happened after refueling the entire fuel load would have needed to be drained out - water in helicopter fuel results in Very Bad Things happening. My bus has a Racor 900FG water separator / fuel filter, but it doesn't have the optional water sensor fitted to it - maybe it would be worth fitting one to it?
John
Well, that was easy.
I got hold of some Kolor Kut and smeared it on the end of a flexible fiberglass driveway marking stick.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00905UC5E/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Pushed the stick into the tank until it went 'klunk' against the bottom. Pulled it out and checked for color change. There was none.
Just to be certain the stuff works, I ran some water over the end of it after testing the tank, and it immediately turned red where ever the water made contact.
Guess I can move on to my next worry.
Darn it. I really wanted you to take the plug out ;D
JC
Quote from: lostagain on September 16, 2018, 07:52:09 AM
Darn it. I really wanted you to take the plug out ;D
JC
So did I, misery loves company! :D I wish I had known about this product before. Dick Egler has provided a public service by telling us about Kolor Kut.
Every gas station uses that water finding paste on the end of the dip sticks for dipping every day. They would probably smear some of it on the end of your stick if you asked nicely.
JC
not on my stick
Yeah, that stuff stings, and leaves a mark...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I had a Bluebird Wanderlodge that had a sump about 8"x8"x4" deep with a petcock that was protected from getting crunched. I would take a sample every 6 months and get a teaspoon of water and some dirt in a glass jar. Our 4106 has a hex pipe plug that has no evidence of ever had a wrench on it. Was thinking it might crinkle the bottom of the sheet metal tank and be a problem. So I had a small Summit Racing diesel 12 VDC pump and I made up a piece of fuel line with a weight on it and dropped it in, turned on the pump and pumped out two gallons of fuel. No dirt or water present. I changed the fuel filters and with my filter cutter cut the cans off both and there was nothing, no dirt or algae between the pleats of filter media.
GM tank is very robust in that area. You aren't going to crinkle the tank; maybe in an Eagle or MCI lol. The plug should be brass, so that it is not difficult to remove.