Which is the pereferred method? Weights, Centramatics, Equal or equiv. beads, or antifreeze or nothing?
Been selling Equal for 15 yrs or so..
Never had a customer use the money back gaurantee
We run centramatics because they stay with the tires as they're moved or changed out. We like them.
If the shop is equipped spin balance is the best if you are into balancing,I buy good tires and use nothing.90% of the time if you need balancing it is the drum that needs balancing,the beads seem to be going to glass or ceramic when using a tire monitoring system and are reusable.You going to run steel or aluminum wheels ? aluminum wheels are far superior over the 2 piece welded steel wheels for balancing IMO
all aluminum with Michelins.
I use BBs. Buy 'em at the local hardware store. I have had zero problems with them so far. there is a chart on the internet that says how much to use in a given tire size. 14oz. for a 1200 x 22.5 I think.
TOM
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 08, 2018, 04:46:54 AM
all aluminum with Michelins.
I wouldn't worry about it then
I run Balance Masters and never had a problem. They are worth looking into. They can pay for themselves if you run enuf miles per year. The good thing is, if you pick up a rock in the tread or whatever, they immediately re-balance themselves and you can't even tell. They also have a Lifetime guarantee so if anything goes wrong, which I have never heard of that happening, they will replace them. Check them out here http://balancemasters.com/
I had no dealing with Balance Master,I removed my Centramatics because they covered the cooling holes in the drums,the place in Texas was nice they just gave me money back when I told him of my concerns about covering the holes
I have never used any products mfg by balance master or centramatics in any of my equipment. I do know that basic physics states that anything in motion tends to remain in motion.
Sorry but
"In short, Balance Masters? precisely, continually, instantly and dynamically self-adjusts to tire and wheel imbalance because nature MUST have equilibrium, and natural forces will act on the counter-balancing fluid to eliminate vibrational resonance and disequilibrium"
seems nothing more than a marketing claim. Exactly how will "natural forces act on the counter-balancing fluid to eliminate vibrational resonance and disequilibrium".
"Balance Masters? utilizes the natural forces created by 20,000 plus pounds of truck rolling down the highway to reduce vibration and create better handling in a very simple yet effective way"
They don't say how it is done. In fact almost the whole page is innuendo.
I don't mean to single out this product but their website reads pretty strange to me.
There are two types of balancing ... static and dynamic. Static balance is simply the reduction of up and down forces of a wheel. Dynamic balancing adjusts not only up and down but side to side forces as well. I am not too sure how balancing beads or liquid can ever control both axial and lateral forces of an out of balance wheel.
Fact is your tire supplier will probably tell you that any warranty claim is jeopardized if you put anything inside the tire. Whether it actually does damages to the liner or not it doesn't matter. If it is in there they have a right to void any warranty. Not that they don't already have an arm's length of reasons not to payout anything anyway. This does not apply to the
Whenever anyone talks about liquid or beads or that type of balancing I always think of swinging a pail of water around in a circle. The effect of an out of balance wheel is similar to an axle being off center resulting in a "heavy" spot on the area furthest from that axle. Just like a pail of water being swung in a circle. It seems to me the liquid (or beads) would gravitate towards the heavy spot but I am no physicist by any means. Because of this I will continue to shy away from the liquid or bead balance but that is just me.
Let the pitchforks and torches fly.
I could never understand how a liquid would work....it seems to me that it would be evenly dispersed around the whole tire and not just go to one spot and stay there.
I guess it's time for me to step in and say "nothing". My tires have always ridden nice with no balancing.
Quote from: Geoff on August 08, 2018, 02:41:07 PM
I guess it's time for me to step in and say "nothing". My tires have always ridden nice with no balancing.
Ditto :D
Quote from: PP on August 08, 2018, 03:25:08 PM
Ditto :D
Another ditto.
My first set on this bus had some sand stuff...it was a pain. it would migrate to the valve stem if i over filled the tire and had to let some out... Paid to have it removed and never looked back.
Michelin and/or Bridgestone on steel wheels.
Just a thought, but if valve stem is placed at 6 oclock, it shouldn't be a problem. At 12 oclock, I could see some dropping from top inside of tire to valve stem inlet on inside of rim.
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 08, 2018, 05:56:27 PM
Just a thought, but if valve stem is placed at 6 oclock, it shouldn't be a problem. At 12 oclock, I could see some dropping from top inside of tire to valve stem inlet on inside of rim.
didn't seem to matter.
another thing i found (i had a low tire flat come off the bead)
seating the bead and airing a tire on the side of the road....the medium sat on the bead and stayed an additional slow leak...
that's my story.
over 100,000 miles later.
no balancing.
I see from reading more on balancing beads that special valve cores with filters on end to keep particles from valve seat location are recommended on all tires using balancing beads. Interesting.
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 08, 2018, 06:20:23 PM
I see from reading more on balancing beads that special valve cores with filters on end to keep particles from valve seat location are recommended on all tires using balancing beads. Interesting.
this is not (balancing beads) what was in my tires...
it was more like 220 grit.
30 years working on hvy and on road trucks. Never needed or saw a benefit to balancing tires. Particularly internal.
But we always used Michelin or Bridgestone.
still do.
probably always will :)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fp.globalsources.com%2FIMAGES%2FPDT%2FB1142815947%2FTire-Balancing-Beads-ceramic-balancing-beads-for-tyre.jpg&hash=a44a98633e32ed0b49e930ba41cc496a72015384)
Looks like something to snort with a straw.☺
I mostly use Michelins on all my vehicles. If they need any wheel weights, it's always very little. Less than an oz.
I put Centramatics on some years ago. At the time, I believed that I felt a difference at highway speeds. Might be my imagination I suppose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq263AYgyYg
There is a big difference between a pail and a tire - the pail limits where the water can go when it is traveling in a circle. However, a tire allows the water to move as it desires.
It works because of inertia - the fluid mass shifts position to minimize the movement of the total rotating assembly's center of mass.
In layman's terms " F'in magic "
All that said, so far, I have only used stick on weights.
For what its worth, out of 10 Michelins, only 3 didn't require any weight. All Alcoa aluminium rims that were checked with no tire to ensure straightness & balance.
Centrimatics on the steer and drive axles.
Antifreeze in the tags.
The Michelin I was commenting about were car and truck tires, not coach tires. With that much mass, it would be rare to only need an ounce or less.
Looked up Centramatics. Average $200 per axle. Pretty expensive. Maybe why antifreeze on tag axle?
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 10, 2018, 05:09:57 AMThe Michelin I was commenting about were car and truck tires, not coach tires. With that much mass, it would be rare to only need an ounce or less.
With that much mass, if you only need an ounce or less to get it in "perfect balance", would you notice it if it were not there???
(Not trying to be a smart-alec, it's a real question in my mind. If careful balancing makes a difference in ride and tire life, I'm all for it, but I'd love to know just how much careful balancing you'd need to make a difference in real life.)
I use spin balancing now, but I tried the Equal balancing compound because certain trucking companies swore by it. I found that it did work if the air was dry inside the tire, but as air is added the moisture could increase, and the compound would clump. So, you had roughness until the clumps banged out from running. You also needed special air valves with color coding to prevent problems with the compound messing with the seal. I decided it was not worth the trouble. Now I use aluminum wheels with good tires that require minimal or no balancing.
After 21 years and 1.3 million miles of driving my own truck-this is what I've found out that works the best. Run aluminum wheels-less unsprung weight and they dissipate heat the best. When buying new tires have ALL tires spun balanced on a digital wheel balancer. If your shop doesn't have a wheel spin balancing machine, find one that does. Then just on the front run Centrimatics. Equal, beads, ball bearings, golf balls or anything you put inside the tire doesn't work worth a hoot.
Then most importantly, weigh your bus fully loaded, tanks full, ready for travel with the front, drive, tag axle and look up the proper tire pressure to run at those weights. You'll have a smooooooth running bus! Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on August 10, 2018, 07:10:36 AM
With that much mass, if you only need an ounce or less to get it in "perfect balance", would you notice it if it were not there???
(Not trying to be a smart-alec, it's a real question in my mind. If careful balancing makes a difference in ride and tire life, I'm all for it, but I'd love to know just how much careful balancing you'd need to make a difference in real life.)
Each ounce of static off balance equates to 6 lbs of force hitting the pavement on a 24.5 wheel.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on August 10, 2018, 07:10:36 AM
With that much mass, if you only need an ounce or less to get it in "perfect balance", would you notice it if it were not there??
The out of balance tire will cause a 'shake'. That shake adds wear and tear to everything attached to it. That will shorten the life of the components.
Might not wear anything out in the miles we put on the coach, but it will open up clearances . . . .
Equal "claims" to be unaffected by moisture, and as I said earlier, not a single customer has asked for a refund. The color coding is just so people will know what wheels they have put the equal in- a little yellow ring to put on the valve stem. Multi truck fleets might have a hard time keeping up with it...After the feedback from my customers, at 12 bucks a wheel, I'll be using it when tire time comes around.
Quote from: OKIE9ERS on August 10, 2018, 04:47:47 PM
Equal "claims" to be unaffected by moisture
That may be true now, my experience with Equal was 22 years ago. Go ahead and use it, and use a lot of sweaty air. Report back after a few years, particularly after the bus has sat for awhile in cold weather.
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 10, 2018, 05:27:02 AM
Looked up Centramatics. Average $200 per axle. Pretty expensive. Maybe why antifreeze on tag axle?
Yep. That, and the fact that my tags were rotated from the front and are already worn or cupped. 16 ounces of a/f in each works well for me.
Your mileage may vary.