Just when I get to thinking prices are on the rise I came across this a 1990 Prevost factory conversion with 96,000 total miles they are asking $52,000 or BO no way can person buy and do a old bus this caliber for $52,000.I cannot link it but for lookers it is www.rvt.com ID 82548857
Do you have another link? The one you provided doesn't work.
Try this link
htt (https://www.rvt.com/-Prevost-LeMirage-XL-1990---ID8254857-UX279633)ps://www.rvt.com/-Prevost-LeMirage-XL-1990---ID8254857-UX279633 (https://www.rvt.com/-Prevost-LeMirage-XL-1990---ID8254857-UX279633)
Seems like the market is seriously melting down. Found another in same range https://www.rvt.com/Prevost-Le-Mirage-XL-XL-1989-USA-CA-ID8171744-UX134179 (https://www.rvt.com/Prevost-Le-Mirage-XL-XL-1989-USA-CA-ID8171744-UX134179)
Saw this morning. Maybe potential reason for the lack of demands for these grand petrol gulping dinosaurs.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/07/30/millennial-interest-drives-wave-new-rvs/796785002/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/07/30/millennial-interest-drives-wave-new-rvs/796785002/)
Totally agree with you Clifford. That 90 Liberty H340 that I worked on for my friend went for $58K CDN ($44K US)
The trend I am seeing is no one wants a 2 stroke engine,they want a series 60,they don't want a 35 or 40 ft bus ,they seem to want a 45 foot,which is ok they handle better and the turning radius is amazing compared to the older buses,then comes the slide deal.I am afraid to buy a bus now to try and flip for a few bucks.I been through the cattle business where you buy high and sell low lol I don't want to go there on a bus I just wish it would reach a level on price.I have friends that have spent 30 to 100k converting their buses and cannot sell it for 20k
Too much supply and not enough demand. Lots of people stop and gawk at our older Prevost, but nobody wants to own it-unless you're a little unbalanced ;D Took it out yesterday and while I was backing into a sight at our latest address, a small crowd gathered to admire the old girl (BUS-not my DW). Lot's of nice comments but sounded more like a walk down memory lane and the good old days of rock star transpo.
Quote from: Timkar on July 31, 2018, 08:59:03 AM
Totally agree with you Clifford. That 90 Liberty H340 that I worked on for my friend went for $58K CDN ($44K US)
We know huh Tim my last bus I bought for fast bucks the model 15 cost me 17K to get rid of it after sitting on it for over a year
Good news for me though, maybe I'll be able to buy at the bottom of the dip. Or I might miss it. Either way it's still fun looking and knowing if the right deal comes along I can jump on it.
Jim
Yep, perfectly good Bus Conversion buses are becoming available dirt cheap. Will we reach the point where the value goes in the other direction and the owner offers how much HE WILL PAY YOU to take the coach off his hands? We are starting to see the beginning of this with estate sales in SW Oregon USA. The Old Coot finally dies. He lived in rural Oregon.
He was a pack rat. The family comes up from Los Angeles CA to settle his estate and they do not want to deal with all of his golden treasures ... including a nice 1984 Crown Super Coach. A shop full of mechanical goodies. Every shop tool you can imagine. The family pays you. You do not pay the family. A buyers market. Perhaps even a takers market in places.
1990? That is a lot of years old for younger people. Also, their desires (and pocket books)are different. Witness these tiny homes and school bus conversions.
Are RV sales in general weaker than they used to be?
Quote from: Lin on July 31, 2018, 11:10:18 AM
Are RV sales in general weaker than they used to be?
No the factory rv sales for trailers and motor homes are at a high right now
Clifford - I was wondering the same thing about buyers wanting 4 stroke/Series 60 coaches. We know how brutal it is for sellers of 2 strokes, even those early 90's until 4 strokes came online around 1995. Y
These days, there aren't many Series 60 bus conversions for sale. Not having lived through it, it seems the big conversion fad was the 90's so a 4 stroke coach would not have been available. Probably like today, the number of conversions from professional converters was very low. By the time prices for the oldest 4 strokes became feasible for a diy conversion, nobody wanted to do it, fad was a dead hobby by 2010's.
Even though the market is quite small, anyone care to venture what the true street selling prices would be between early 90's and late 90's professional conversion?
Seems like the advice to buy someone else's conversion that is in good shape is still the soundest advice. As far as 2 cycle vs 4 goes, many of us love the sound of 2 cycles because it brings back memories. As time goes on, there will be fewer people who have that fondness, but as long as I am kicking, that is the sound I want to hear coming from the rear of an Eagle. If the prices of conversions stay low, that will help make up the cost of fuel.
One big thing effecting the resaleability of older conversions is financing. Other than getting a home equity loan, financing is a big problem. You buy a new sticks and staples, no problem, just sign on the dotted line.
Hi all, I think these people that are doing schoolie bus conversions now ( and altho I hate the term, tinyhomes) are going to upgrade as they get older too Intercity bus conversions and will want all the amenities especially when their children's ages rise, I think time will tell but, I think our conversions are going to have new homes when this new generation gets older, regardless of the engines, lvmci...
I don't think that will happen Tom ,the ones I know that made the leap when the bus dies that is the end ,they don't have the resources to keep it going remember the Jason and his family saga
I do my best to try help the few that want to go the route with limited funds lol but I won't be here for ever.
Haven't you noticed when a person passes away the first thing the kids want to dump is his bus very few kids will keep their dad's bus the ones that do maybe a year to 2.It's just a matter of time till rules and regulations take the older buses off the highways like trucks and school buses
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 31, 2018, 11:58:46 AM
One big thing effecting the resaleability of older conversions is financing. Other than getting a home equity loan, financing is a big problem. You buy a new sticks and staples, no problem, just sign on the dotted line.
Yes, that is absolutely correct. The banks want something newer that they can look up in their guide books (or online, now), despite the lower quality of most RV's. It is lazy and unfair of them. Many of the Bus Conversions, even though they are decades old, far surpass most RV's. For people that have enough money and/or mechanical savvy, a Bus Conversion is still the best value, particularly if you buy it at a distressed price. On the other hand, they are not an investment that you can "flip" at a profit. :o
So, all this confirms what I've said all along. Buying/building a bus conversion is not, and should never be considered, an investment. A bus is worth exactly what you're willing to spend on it. Nothing more, nothing less. We paid what we did for our bus because it was worth it to us. I don't know if we'll be able to recoup the money we've sunk into it, but my guess is not at all. We will 'withdraw' our money in the form of experiences, adventures, and enjoyment.
I've always loved traveling by bus. I've also always loved old cars. Never made money on one, but boy did I have a great time restoring them, owning them, and driving them. How much more so when I can combine bus travel with old vehicles.
None of us has any way to tell what the future will bring and whether or not we'll be able to sell our buses down the road. Better focus on whether or not the bus is giving us enjoyment right now and base things on that. When it comes time to repair/upgrade/replace our current bus I'll use the same metric to decide if it's worth the money - will we get enough use & enjoyment from it to move forward.
I didn't build my bus to sell it, but enjoy it, and who cares what a Prevost is worth.
Quote from: Geoff on July 31, 2018, 03:09:19 PM
I didn't build my bus to sell it, but enjoy it, and who cares what a Prevost is worth.
No none of us did but there may come a time when you or wife will sell it 8)
Quote from: luvrbus on July 31, 2018, 03:48:03 PM
No none of us did but there may come a time when you or wife will sell it 8)
Not on my watch. If I get incrurable cancer, I'll just drive it off a cliff-- who says you can't take it with you!
I just look at like why bother now doing one yourself at these prices I paid that much for my Eagle shell when I did mine and they are about the same in years as far as age then,my shell had 281,000 miles with a 4 speed and a gutless 8v71 which was the 1st modification i done replacing that with a 8v92 and a Alison 740 then I started converting.When I see Dick Wright I ask him if he still has the bushel basket he used to carry my money to the bank ;D
During the boom years for conversions (the nineties) the shells may have been overpriced, and the conversion products were as well. Now is the time to get the things you want in a conversion that you couldn't afford then. I wish I had more money, there are a lot of good Eagles for sale, but I have to be content with the three I have. There is a 1983 45' Eagle Entertainer with a Military Turbo 8V71 (405 hp) and Allison on eBay.... ::) $26,000 OBO.
If you set down with a open mind with a pencil and paper it's had to justify owning a conversion for the mileage driven and used,we started out running 20 to 25k miles per year then it started dropping every year till we were doing less than 3000.
One year at a MAK rally they did a poll on miles driven on about 60 buses the average was less than 5000 miles per year.I have made 4 trips in the bus in 3 years the longest was 180 miles to Williams, all of them are worth more in parts than a conversion
Maybe you guys need to find a cheaper hobby like racing riding lawnmowers.
We still put miles on the Trek it is handy for week ends 14 MPG a new set of tires for under a 1000 bucks,2 gal oil changes and has everything a bus would have and our friends don't care if we show up in a bus or not
The availability of cheap, good condition, shells, due to the close coupled double whammy of dumping 96 inch wide in the mid 80's and 40 foot long coaches in the early 90's created a never to be seen again bonanza for the hobby.
Everywhere you looked, there were good, cheap buses.
Unwitting new busnuts simply got a good shell, not because they knew anything, simply by the better odds of perfectly good buses being available that the commercial market didn't want, as opposed to couldn't afford to run anymore.
Today, much more normal conditions, there's serious problems lurking in way more shells, that bite the unwitting in the a$$ hard.
A coach has a "normal" commercial lifespan somewhere shy of 20 years. After that, it is a hard decision for a commercial enterprise to pour more money into significant systems...
There are still good shells out there for the busnut who wants to roll their own, but, they need to be smart about the shell choice, and must know the coach's real history, insider info, not what some a$$hole salesperson blows up their patoot.
Buying an existing conversion has its own set of "previous owner neglect" problems, that can bankrupt the new busnut just as fast.
Buyer beware, buyer be informed, no matter the direction.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Getting ready to put my 94 Prevost Two stroke on the market .I know when I'm beat !! And I also know I will take a blood bath but before I'give it away I'll donate it to Goodwill .lol
I have a friend in Vegas that just replaced his engine.On the phone he told me he has owned boats, air planes and antique cars and told me I think I found something I may not be able to afford to drive,I ask what he said a bus conversion 8)
I think airplanes would give Bus Conversions a run for the money. Aircraft engines (propeller) don't last very long between overhauls, and aircraft mechanics are pricey. Boats, well they are just holes in the water...... ;D
LOL I didn't keep my boat long with twin 900 hp Man diesels, 4000 gal fuel tank and $3000.00 a month for mooring in San Diego it had to go
No contest. Boats are worse than buses.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on July 31, 2018, 11:43:55 AM... As far as 2 cycle vs 4 goes, ... that is the sound I want to hear coming from the rear of an Eagle. ...
I have a British bus. You can HEAR the engine going down the road???? How about that?
I got a amazing deal on the big CAT( pre emission 4 stroke) so that is the reason I sold my M C I but it was a ton of work to rebuild the Featherlite to what I wanted
almost all the work was inside redo
less $$$ spent on the featherlite then on the M C I but I got a fair price for the M C I when I sold it in 2016
dave
Always something with mine and I'm getting closer to pulling the plug, And that's with only 89,000 miles on a 1991 8V92TA since new. Yeah these buses aren't for the faint of heart or someone with slim pocketbooks.
Face it, bus conversions were fun when fuel was under $1.00 a gallon. THATS what is killing the hobby.
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 01, 2018, 04:58:58 AM
Face it, bus conversions were fun when fuel was under $1.00 a gallon. THATS what is killing the hobby.
When I bought my coach back in early 2011, diesel was over $4 bucks a gallon. Remember filling up at $4.25. Fuel costs ain't what's driving me away. Not by a long shot. These are expensive to maintain on coach and house systems and if you're taking it out to somebody , forget it. Looking at tires and batteries rat now. 5 or 6 thousand easy. I'm lucky that I have the green but don't know how long, I'll spend it on my Prevost. I know I'm preaching to the choir. 8)
Quote from: muldoonman on August 01, 2018, 08:49:47 AM
When I bought my coach back in early 2011, diesel was over $4 bucks a gallon. Remember filling up at $4.25. Fuel costs ain't what's driving me away. Not by a long shot. These are expensive to maintain on coach and house systems and if you're taking it out to somebody , forget it. Looking at tires and batteries rat now. 5 or 6 thousand easy. I'm lucky that I have the green but don't know how long, I'll spend it on my Prevost. I know I'm preaching to the choir. 8)
Glen you are not preaching to this choir boy 6-8D Lifeline batteries will get your attention in a hurry and so will 8-315.80x22.5 Michelin's :o closer to 10 thousand than 6 BTDT
Quote from: luvrbus on August 01, 2018, 09:21:03 AM
Glen you are not preaching to this choir boy 6-8D Lifeline batteries will get your attention in a hurry and so will 8-315.80x22.5 Michelin's :o closer to 10 thousand than 6 BTDT
True Cliff but I run Samson 16 ply 12R's on the back 6 (cheap) Bridgestones on the front and just 2 lifeline 8D's. Yeah it's all expensive. Gonna charge OTR AC in morning after vaccuming as Prevost wanted $20,000 for an overhaul on original set up on coach. Had new shaft seal and Nitrogen check today and charge tomorrow. If I didn't have all the goodies think I'd turn mine into a tiny house for somebody.
Buses aren't expensive. Neither is fuel a factor.
Compare to driving a big pickup pulling a big travel trailer...
Price out flying somewhere, getting a half decent room in high season, renting a car, eating in restaurants 3 times a day...
Parts for anything is expensive too.
Etc, etc.
JC
Buses are expensive if you base on a miles per year driven,I can jump on Southwest and go anywhere just about for 200 bucks where you can drive too buying tickets in advance,I just don't like BS associated now with flying so we drive.
RV parks have gone through the roof in price and they have a lot of BS too.Sonja wanted to spend the night in San Diego on the ocean lol they asked me for $300.00 a night with a 3 night minimum that didn't happen but people do pay that stupid price,I won't pay $50 a night for a RV park
Was gonna say "Don't know how these Kids today make it" but thought I'd change that to "Don't know how us older folks make it". 8)
Quote from: luvrbus on August 01, 2018, 01:27:49 PM
I can jump on Southwest and go anywhere just about for 200 bucks where you can drive too buying tickets in advance,I just don't like BS associated now with flying so we drive.
I didn't fly very much before TSA and don't fly at all now. I refuse to be molested or let my wife be molested by somebody who can't read the Constitution because they can't read cursive letters or somebody who speaks English as a second language. The people who put that system in place should be sold into slavery and their houses be made into a dung heap.
When I see you in person, I'll tell you how I REALLY feel! LOL!!! ;D ;D
TOM
Quote from: oldmansax on August 01, 2018, 02:11:18 PM
I didn't fly very much before TSA and don't fly at all now. I refuse to be molested or let my wife be molested by somebody who can't read the Constitution because they can't read cursive letters or somebody who speaks English as a second language. The people who put that system in place should be sold into slavery and their houses be made into a dung heap.
When I see you in person, I'll tell you how I REALLY feel! LOL!!! ;D ;D
TOM
Thank President Bush for that TSA gem. Right after 9-11.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on July 31, 2018, 08:17:24 PM
I have a British bus. You can HEAR the engine going down the road???? How about that?
Well yes, I can hear it just fine in the background. If I need a stronger dose, I open the driver's window. I love going through a downtown area with buildings on both sides, the reverb effect adds to the music. I would really like to have a rooftop camera and a microphone if I ever get rooftop exhaust stacks on. I should put the video on all the TV's in the coach so that the grandkids can appreciate it (or not). I was under the impression that some diesel music in a British Bus leaked through to the driver. ::)
Loud exhaust from a bus is detrimental to the folks you pass. Quiet is the key to a nice conversion.
Quote from: Geoff on August 01, 2018, 04:58:23 PM
Loud exhaust from a bus is detrimental to the folks you pass. Quiet is the key to a nice conversion.
Oh, it's not overly loud. it's beautiful music! The Jacob Brake, however, is a tad bit warmer.
Our 4104 sounded beautiful going through tunnels. A few shots with the air horns were nice too. Only did the horns if no vehicles were near.☺
Quote from: oldmansax on August 01, 2018, 02:11:18 PM
by somebody who can't read the Constitution because they can't read cursive letters or somebody who speaks English as a second language.
TOM
Ha !! Now you know the real reason for zip codes.
The smart immigrants were put on the last 3 digit sort line.
Great discussion. How do you decide what a conversion is worth? With real estate, you can look at comps and sales prices. For cars, you have KBB, NADA, and others.
I cannot get my head around how to determine the value of something like a mid to late 1990s professionally converted XL with a series 60. Listing prices are all over the road.
My first thought is the obvious one... A conversion is worthwhile what someone is willing to pay for it. We paid more for ours than some would have recommended, but the features and condition was worth it to us. We wanted an old bus in great condition, and that's what we got.
The other answer, is that's what appraisal services are for. Just because our bus was worth something to us didn't mean that the insurance company would agree should we file a claim. So we paid Spike to do a professional appraisal after the upgrades we wanted were done. He used a combination of comps, market trends, recent sales, etc to set a value. Actually came in above our purchase price. (Even after getting dinged for the 4-speed).
Appraisals are a part of ownership unless we are willing to allow an insurance company to decide the value of the coach. An under insured coach will end up being "totaled" because it will not take much damage to end up with repairs that cost more than the insurance company values the coach at.
We always suggest "agreed value" policies instead of ACV because with the agreed value both the owner and the insurace company are aware of and in agreement on how much insurance coverage there is.
That being said I know appraisals almost always exceed the true market value and often never reflect what a coach is really worth to the marketplace. The marketplace tends to be brutal and unwilling to pay anywhere near what an owner may think a coach is worth, and almost never does market value reflect replacement cost. It is actually sad seeing an owner spend thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars converting a coach and restoring it to very good mechanical condition, only to find he cannot get 25% of what he has invested in dollars, much less the value of his time.
Buyers are becoming more savvy by the way of the internet,new conversions were so overinflated they never sold for the list prices you see advertised anyways.New Presovst conversion will list for 1 mil to almost 3 mil,they all say it takes 4000 man hours to convert a bus,they pay the same amount for shell from Prevost around 600k.No way they can spend a mil or 2 on converting a shell.Dealers will use the list price of the conversion when new and try to make you think it is a deal,individuals selling are more realistic.My doctor has a new Prevost the list price of the paint job from the converter on his sheet was $131.000.00 no way the bus comes with with a base color and they add all the graphics.People like my doctor will buy new and take the 1000 bucks a day deprecation write off and when there is none left they sell it off.Plus you are looking at 20+ year old bus that has no lending value to lenders so it has to be cash in hand,then the market is flooded that is why they are all over the map in price,no way would I try and convert a bus in today's market.I am doing a remodel I should have went a bought a different bus and been money ahead
Riding lawnmowers aren?t necessarily cheap either. When my son started racing go carts the joke was you needed about 50000 to do it. A thousand for the go cart and 49000 for the motorhome to go to races.
Agreed Value is also a joke.
You buy a coach for X
3-10 years later you have a wreck.
The insurance company decides the rate of depreciation.
You lose.
Further, they don't drop your rate/premium accordingly for that period.
Quote from: eagle19952 on August 26, 2018, 10:30:44 AM
Agreed Value is also a joke.
You buy a coach for X
3-10 years later you have a wreck.
The insurance company decides the rate of depreciation.
You lose.
Further, they don't drop your rate/premium accordingly for that period.
Which is exactly why as an owner you have to look out for your interests because the insurance company will not. An updated appraisal after every 2 or three years plus a detailed list of capital improvements made since the last appraisal go a long way to preventing the insurance company from bending you over.
Quote from: Jon on August 26, 2018, 11:12:37 AM
Which is exactly why as an owner you have to look out for your interests because the insurance company will not. An updated appraisal after every 2 or three years plus a detailed list of capital improvements made since the last appraisal go a long way to preventing the insurance company from bending you over.
none of which maintains original purchase agreed value.
Quote from: eagle19952 on August 26, 2018, 11:46:30 AM
none of which maintains original purchase agreed value.
I am told by a adjuster that works for insurance co a lot of people use for their insurance here,a appraisal for insurance is like one for a lending institution it's only good for 6 months then if you have a claim he decides not the appraisal used to secure the insurance. He appraised one here at the shop they get down to the nity grity he measured the tire tread,brake shoe thickness and miles on the engine,running condition and etc.The owner thought for sure he was going to get his 100k that didn't work they paid him 13k and he kept the bus another mistake he thought he could sell easy for 25k he ended up selling it for 2k after a year and a 1/2 later for less money than he paid the insurance co for the bus
I think that we all agree anything to do with insurance or valuation is nothing more than a crap shoot. We each will do what we feel necessary to support the value we think is appropriate and hope/pray that we never need to use our insurance. When we do, we hope/pray/fight like hell to get the insurance adjuster to assign a value to our coach that we feel is fair.
When we had our wreck last fall we fought like hell with Progressive, and in the end they actually came through with a valuation that we could live with. It wasn't necessarily as high as we wanted, but it was actually higher than Spike said he would be able to support if he did an official appraisal. I think that the dash cam went a long way in that it showed what happened and got the other driver's carrier to accept full liability almost immediately. Perhaps a dash cam should be considered as important as a current appraisal?
We're planning to continue putting money into our coach as long as we're getting enjoyment from it. As soon as the money exceeds the enjoyment it will be time to consider other options or approaches to the whole bus thing.
Richard - I have to believe the video showing the oncoming car crossing into your lane then the head on collision had weight in the way your claim was handled. Insurance is simply a risk management business and paying you more to have you go away happy, rather than lawyering up and suing the hell out of them was worth any incremental costs. BTW - are you suing the guy who got killed? Harder now that estate is probably settled out. If it went to probate, might have a chance to claim.
Like Clifford and most here grown with pain and the lost $$ in conversion projects. If one views bus conversions as a traditional hobby, there is no expectation of return and the money spent was for enjoyment and entertainment. Richard, to some degree, follows this thinking.
Now being a hobby is not a license to spend away wrecklessly, a case can be made that creating something unique of your own vision that can not be purchased in the used market, to do a conversion today. Ignoring the fiscal aspects, building is the only way to realized ones dream conversion. This would apply to most commercial/marketing conversions done to very custom specifications, going to have to do conversion today to get the desired result. That said, maybe a used conversion could be the start of a refitting to new specifications but starting to rub nickels here given the hefty overall budget required.
My bus owes me nothing.
I carry insurance because the law requires it and the payoff might rent me a u-haul to carry away the stuff I want out of it.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on August 01, 2018, 04:39:33 PM... I was under the impression that some diesel music in a British Bus leaked through to the driver. ::)
Some may, but you'd never hear it over the rattles, chassis creaking, side-panel oil-canning, and rustle of rust falling to the road surface.
Quote from: eagle19952 on August 26, 2018, 08:22:20 PM
My bus owes me nothing.
I carry insurance because the law requires it and the payoff might rent me a u-haul to carry away the stuff I want out of it.
Words of Wisdom my Friend. :)