Is there anyone or group of busnuts that want to buy a campground? Lake Honeydew Campground is being auctioned off next month. One of the busnuts here suggested that maybe some of you would like to go in together and purchase the campground, do some work on it and have a campground and a haven for busnuts to stop at when traveling. Right now Dallas and I are trying to find some other place to hold our Timmonsville Rally in May. If the new owner does not keep this as a campground we will not be able to hold it here. Right now I know of 1 person that wants to look into buying it and 1 other person that would love to go in with others to make a group purchase. If anyone is interested, just let us know. Cat
If its serious sale (absolute auction) I'd be interested in looking at it (tried to email but couldn't)
Yes it is a serious auction. If you can't email me, you can email Dallas and he can give you what information we have. Cat
look guys just last week I posted a bus for sale on this board and got my chops in trouble.
so what gives with this for sale post still on here??????
chris
Chris,
It's not a for sale post. It's information on an upcoming auction, just as ebay posts are.
It also has in no way shape or form anything to do with personal gain or profit.
Dallas
ok thanks for clarifing that dallas
chris
It's the perfect "Half Way House" for us in the north east when traveling to florida.
Hummmmm :o
Nick-
Wow......
Now if I just knew where Lake Honeydew Campground was located???????
Isn't it just east of Lake Havasu AZ?
Ed
Yes, it is east......way, way east. As in SC kindof east. Near where I-95 and I-20 cross, not far from Florence SC.
I and another investor looked into buying a campgournd in NC a few years ago. According to the owners, it was making money; however, their books did not support that contention. It appears that some of the cash did not make it into the records. The fact that the books did not show a profit made it impossible to obtain reasonable financing. That said, with enough investors, you can finance anything. I think campgrounds as a whole will be money making ventures considering the many baby-boomers that are taking up camping. Being able to camp there is just icing on the cake. I would be interested in participating in this venture if it is feasable. How do we proceed?
I think if the campground in question is going to go for around 50-60K then 50 or 60 busnuts can come up with a grand or two each, and become partners in a business venture that would be affordable, fun, exciting, and at the same time saving a campground that could just be the next million dollar plus business that you only read about after it's too late IF it's marketed right and run right!
If each has to put up more than a grand then it would deter others from getting involved. Keeping it at a grand would get more and more involved and that just makes it easier to get into a business venture for those thathave never done so!
Sure there will be those greedy ones that want it all but I say keep it equall. ;)
Ace... count me in for 1-2K
Quote from: Ace on February 10, 2007, 06:32:20 AM
I think if the campground in question is going to go for around 50-60K then 50 or 60 busnuts can come up with a grand or two each,
No offense Ace, but a business venture with 50 partners???? The only way it would work would be to condo the sites so each investor owned thier site...and nothing more than thier site. If each person owned a share of the entire property, you'd have 50 pissed off people most of the time. Try to get 50 people to agree on anything and you'll see what I mean. The only way would be to buy with as few partners as possible who you trust blindly.
Option two would be for a "corporation" to buy it then sell shares. Share holders would profit if the business profits, but just like in the real world, the board would control the business.
Ross
I was just going to mention that it could be done somewhat like a co-op, with a board of directors to do the actual governance of the property and leave the day to day operations to whoever manages it.
A number of sites could be set aside for the use, primarily by investors on a first come, first served basis.
At this time, there are 20 sites on the end I am at, and about 15 sites on the other end. Beyond those sites are about 10 more under the trees that the present owner started to build last summer. I guess he got fed up with costs and quit work on those before getting the sewer in.
All sites except 2 are 30A with the two exceptions being 50A.
There is a 5 acre lake stocked with Cats, Bass, Brim, Shiners, Blue Gill, etc. Around this lake a road runs about 9/10ths of the way.
There is room around the lake to put maybe 30 or 40 camping spots with full hook up and maybe 40 or 50 more with electric and water only.
Much of the brush clearing was done this fall, but there are still large piles of scrap trees and brush that must either be burnt, cut up for firewood or hauled off.
Cutting up the for firewood may be a way to supply campers with wood for campfires, at a nominal charge.
There is a shower room for both men and women, each one having 3 showers.
Two Toilet stalls in the mens room and 3 in the womens.
There is also a 2 story, 2 bedroom house that needs some renovation, but could be used as a residence for rental or whatever. The story I heard about it is that it was originally a barn and was turned into a house With the downstairs interior being made of rustic board and batten.
If anyone is interested in pictures, I could take some and post them, just let me know what you would like to see.
Dallas
Yea Ross that makes more sense! Don't know what I was thinking if I even was!
It would be nice to own your own spot though! I like that idea!
Ace
Quote from: Dallas on February 10, 2007, 08:53:53 AM
I was just going to mention that it could be done somewhat like a co-op, with a board of directors to do the actual governance of the property and leave the day to day operations to whoever manages it.
A number of sites could be set aside for the use, primarily by investors on a first come, first served basis.
At this time, there are 20 sites on the end I am at, and about 15 sites on the other end. Beyond those sites are about 10 more under the trees that the present owner started to build last summer. I guess he got fed up with costs and quit work on those before getting the sewer in.
All sites except 2 are 30A with the two exceptions being 50A.
There is a 5 acre lake stocked with Cats, Bass, Brim, Shiners, Blue Gill, etc. Around this lake a road runs about 9/10ths of the way.
There is room around the lake to put maybe 30 or 40 camping spots with full hook up and maybe 40 or 50 more with electric and water only.
Much of the brush clearing was done this fall, but there are still large piles of scrap trees and brush that must either be burnt, cut up for firewood or hauled off.
Cutting up the for firewood may be a way to supply campers with wood for campfires, at a nominal charge.
There is a shower room for both men and women, each one having 3 showers.
Two Toilet stalls in the mens room and 3 in the womens.
There is also a 2 story, 2 bedroom house that needs some renovation, but could be used as a residence for rental or whatever. The story I heard about it is that it was originally a barn and was turned into a house With the downstairs interior being made of rustic board and batten.
If anyone is interested in pictures, I could take some and post them, just let me know what you would like to see.
Dallas
This sounds pretty good, Dallas.... I'd probably be interested in doing that....
Keep me informed. Even thou it is in the wrong Carolina I can come up with a grand or two.
Art
I don't think Ace's idea was necessarily bad. I'd throw in a couple grand and be content to let an elected board actually run the place. There's no reason why owner's sites have to be free - whoever uses it pays the same as everyone else - they get their bonus if the campground makes money.
Don't forget the aspect of needing someone to handle the day-to-day operations, collect money, truthfully record the money collected on behalf of the owners, etc.
Dallas, how is the campground zoned? Would a truck/bus garage be permitted on the upper end of the property (opposite where you're located)? What does comps give on per acre basis for land in that area and how many acres of land is involved in the campground?
Is the whole of the lake actually within the campground property?
It's unlikely that any small restaurant or family operated campground will show much cash flow in excess of operating expenses...not likely that there is a lot of cash flow, but owners of such properties will tend avoid the taxman by diverting cash.
It would seem that the location could be profitable on an annual basis, however, the profit potential is limited by the small number of campsites. Some form of additional income could perhaps be generated due to proximity of the interstate...?
Interesting possibilty.
I agree with Ross on ownership. Not enough potential for a ton of owners, but a "timeshare" sort of arrangement could work.
Hell, I could retire in my "timeshare" campsite! ;) Hmmm..that's not exactly how "timeshares" work is it?
I'll see you Monday dude! Don't forget to grab Cat's cellphone.
You still have my cellphone number? 704 650 0235
Best, JR
I think in order for this venture to generate profits, There needs to be a good busisness plan.
I'm referring to capitol to revamp the property so it would be up to standards, codes, and to be
competitive in order to generate a profit. I propose we set up a discovery commitee to generate
a plan of approach. This commitee can meet with Dallas and Cat and collect all the info they know,
and get a good prospective of the possibility's and the potentials. This way we can see the real money
that needs to be in place instead of just throwing numbers in the air. By the time of the auction, I would
like to know for sure, exactly what we should pay for the property. Not a penny more!
Let me know
Nick-
I like the fun of speculating about "what if" scenarios as much as the next guy, and a modest investment in a business venture sounds kinda neat. But before we too far ahead of ourselves, lets look at some of the numbers being tossed around.
On the one hand, I am hearing the property has a five acre lake, about 45 existing sites, and room for maybe 80 more. I haven't heard anything about the total acreage, but it sounds like a pretty sizeable chunk of real estate.
Then we have folks basing their math on the property "going for $50-60K". If the property size that I am picturing in my mind is correct, and they will sell it at auction for <$60K, where do I write the check? The land, which is also near an interstate, has to be easily worth that, even as an open field.
From an investment standpoint you need to add in the cost of the existing structures, the cost of installing the 80 new sites, and the legal costs to set up the limited partnership or whatever investor structure would be used.
My gut feel says that even adding an extra zero behind the $60K number won't cover what is needed to get this off the ground. Of course the other option is to get the investors to front enough money to satisfy bankers and secure loans to cover the remaining portion. If that is the case, the payback to investors is decreased while the bank loans are being repaid. It is tricky too, because the limited partnership and loans would have to be arranged before the actual auction bidding.
Sorry to sound like such a wet blanket, but I don't see this getting off the ground for anywhere near the numbers discussed. Buy hey, if there is a way to truely make this work for the figures being discussed, heck yeah I am interested.
You bring up some good points WEC!
It's always best to look at the whole picture including the negative side of things.
It brings about a bit of sanity to what could otherwise be a foolish move.
Dallas
Dallas, if the campground thing don't work out, we got a place for you and Cat up here. Can you get all your "stuff" in your bus? You could even host a small rally here. I've got an 8 acre pasture (weather sensitive) and about 5 more acres around the barn. have 3000 SF inside a rough barn and a stage suitable for some minor amusement. For the most part, it would be dry camping...but there's water and some power (Dallas, I could supply you with 50 A). If I had some idea you would be interested in this, I would work on creating some power in large blocks that would enable power and water for 15 or 20 coaches....with power and mabe another 15 dry camping. We'd have to offer a "honeywagon" for them. And a waterwagon. I'll bet the honeywagon would be a potential profit center....have you ever been full of $##T? That's gotta go!
Now I know you want to go further South...but, hey...you'll find the price is right and my zoning (R-A) allows me to do whatever I want. I can park ya'll up here into perpetuity.
Regarding the value of Hornydew Campground, land in the scrub areas of South Carolina may or may not be especially valuable. That's something that would have to evaluated. Most folk are not interested in owning camgrounds due to the seasonal forces, and constant issues with "settlers" that may not understand our customs and language.
This has changed dramatically in the last few years. And I've been loosely associated with two campgrounds that closed up due to an inability to turn the sites over and not allow "squatting" on a site by transient workers.
If this interests anyone, and Dallas wishes to join us and manage (consult?) this event, consider it on. I'm OK with it. I'm great for going back to T'ville too! LET ME KNOW!
Cheers, JR
WOW JR,
You certainly have a big hart. I'm glad we have folks like you in our club willing to offer a part of your
life and possesions to another bus nut. Even if they don't need your offer, it sure is warming to have someone
give you another option in a matter that is as great as facing loosing your homestead.
Thanks for being a part of this board! I'm sure Dallas and Cat feel the same way...
Nick-
Quote from: Ross on February 10, 2007, 07:40:07 AM
Quote from: Ace on February 10, 2007, 06:32:20 AM
I think if the campground in question is going to go for around 50-60K then 50 or 60 busnuts can come up with a grand or two each,
No offense Ace, but a business venture with 50 partners???? The only way it would work would be to condo the sites so each investor owned thier site...and nothing more than thier site. If each person owned a share of the entire property, you'd have 50 pissed off people most of the time. Try to get 50 people to agree on anything and you'll see what I mean. The only way would be to buy with as few partners as possible who you trust blindly.
Option two would be for a "corporation" to buy it then sell shares. Share holders would profit if the business profits, but just like in the real world, the board would control the business.
Ross
Just like an SKP campground...
For those of you not familiar with the concept, the Escapee's RV Club of Livingston, Texas runs several campgrounds on this principle; I "work-camped" at the one in Lakewood, NM for a while and I have to tell you, it was almost complete anarchy! The place was ostensibly run by a Board of Directors but, because of the terms of the site purchase agreements, every site owner had a say in the day to day operation of the campground as a whole.
It was a mess, from a work-camper's standpoint. I would be given tasks by the campground manager, then those would be interrupted throughout the day by individual site owners. I could not refuse them, and the BOD refused to assert themselves to stop this from happening. After being called on the carpet for not getting my work done because of this, I finally quit and moved on -- that was my last experience at "work-camping", too because it left such a bad impression.
What I am saying is that, if this works, this sort of thing needs to be avoided. Site leases or purchase agreements need to be worded such that individual site owners DO NOT have the right to usurp the orderly functioning of the park or the employee's work assignments. Make sure that only the BOD can make decisions relating to this sort of thing, which are then handed down to the park manager for scheduling and assignment to the workers.
By the way, I will volunteer to manage it if the plan goes through... I think I have the right experience mix!
Hey, JR,
Thanks for the offer! that's really cool!
We are still looking around here for a place to campout until we find a permanent site so Cat can keep her job.
She also said she will look at her companies internal bulletin board to see if there is anything she could transfer to up at the Charlotte office!
And Nick is right! You do have a big heart!
Dallas
There have been many good points made here but I think Nick has brought up one of the most pressing. There is a time factor here. If indeed the property is up for auction next month we have almost no time left to come up with a business plan, form a company, elect officers, obtain financing, and buy the property. An exploratory committee is an excellent idea if we get on with it.
I have taken the liberty of doing some online research and it appears the property is assessed at $91,000. I doubt if the owner would take that for it. I think someone should contact the existing owner and see if we can buy the property sans the auction. He also may be able to point us to local financing.
I would be glad to do that if it is OK with everyone else. My only limitation is I live in Maryland. I can make a trip down to SC if this looks feasible. I would also back someone else making contact, but we need to get moving NOW.
If we are not going to pursue this together, I think we should be free to pursue it separately, but I don't want to step on anybodies toes or get into a bidding war. Feel free to contact me via email.
Remember that assessments often are not based on market value especiially in more rural areas.
I'm looking for 3 to 5 acres to build a new house on. Lots are often assessed at $10,000 to $20,0000, but the market value is around $80,000.
Quote from: niles500 on February 08, 2007, 09:46:13 PM
If its serious sale (absolute auction) I'd be interested in looking at it (tried to email but couldn't)
Seeing as how this is not a tax related auction and just a private sale auction, my guess would be that there will be a reserve. If the auctioneer is doing his job, he will do a comparative value search and set the reserve accordingly. Just a guess, but with a tax assessment at $91,000, I'll bet the reserve will be higher than that.
.....Unless the owners just want out and don't care what it sells for. Then it could be a good deal.
Ross
Well, I hate to be the wet blanket, and I don't know how it is down there, but around here, most auctions for real estate already have a buyer who may or may not bid at the auction, depending on how high the bids go. Most auctions are due to death, divorce, bankruptcy, or a last ditch effort to get more than a seller has been offered so far. Usually they have a backup buyer, and the deal is often "done" before the auction is ever held.
If there is a loan against the property, you can bet that the mortgage company's rep will be bidding at LEAST up to what they are owed. They are not about to lose their interest in a property. If you buy a property at auction, you run the risk of buying a property worth less than the leins against it. Contrary to popular belief, an auction does not necessarily "clear the leins" as some people would think.
Having said this, I have to reveal that we did purchase my brother's property at his auction, which was held due to a divorce and inability to agree on the details needed to divide, list and sell the personal and real property. We were nearly at our maximum when we won the auction, so there are times that you can buy property at auction. However, we didn't get a steal. . . we likely paid exactly what the property was worth at that time.
I suggest that someone could search the courthouse records and see what leins are filed against the property. Often, you can pay a title company as little as $100 to do a quick report, which basically searches courthouse records and gives you a list of loans/leins currently against a specific property. It is not guaranteed to be thorough, but usually they catch most things. If you have the owners names, you can also search courthouse records to see if there are any pending judgements against them also.
I can not imagine being able to research the property, and then put together a group of investors and a thorough operating agreement in such a short time. As for the auctioneer setting a reserve, well, usually that doesn't happen. It's the owner who will set the reserve, and remember, although the auctioneer may have a minimum amount he charges to set up the auction, the more he gets for it, the more he makes. The land is worth exactly what someone will pay for it. Tax assessments, appraisals, etc., are of little use when determining the value of a unique piece of property or business.
I would think that the proper form of action for a group wanting to "own" a campground would be to first, form the group and come up with a general consensus of how it would be run, and what general locations would be preferable to the ownership. The idea that you could buy and own a campsite for as little as $1,000, and that you really have "ownership" not rental of that site, without continued investment, well, I think that is likely one of those "sounds to good to be true" situations.
Sorry if I sound like a wet blanket, and I'm not saying you can't do something like this if you really wanted to, but I don't think you want to do it like this. Christy Hicks
Quote from: Nick Badame Refrig. Co. on February 10, 2007, 06:58:44 PM
I think in order for this venture to generate profits, There needs to be a good busisness plan.
I'm referring to capitol to revamp the property so it would be up to standards, codes, and to be
competitive in order to generate a profit. I propose we set up a discovery commitee to generate
a plan of approach. This commitee can meet with Dallas and Cat and collect all the info they know,
and get a good prospective of the possibility's and the potentials. This way we can see the real money
that needs to be in place instead of just throwing numbers in the air. By the time of the auction, I would
like to know for sure, exactly what we should pay for the property. Not a penny more!
Let me know
Nick-
I agree here. This could be an interesting proposition.
The campground is in an interesting location. It could be a decent stopping point for trips along the east coast.
Some distances and times:
Destination | Distance | Approx. Time |
Boston, MA | 850 miles | 14.3 hours |
Albany, NY | 775 miles | 13 hours |
Philadelphia, PA | 550 miles | 9.25 hours |
Virginia Beach, VA | 335 miles | 5.6 hours |
Daytona Beach, FL | 390 miles | 6 hours |
Orlando, FL | 440 miles | 6.8 hours |
Arcadia, FL | 555 miles | 8.8 hours |
Pensacola, FL | 600 miles | 9.3 hours |
Miami, FL | 650 miles | 9.6 hours |
Key West, FL | 800 miles | 12.6 hours |
Dallas, how far is the campground from Darlington Speedway? How full is the campground leading up to, and the week following the Nextel Cup race? Also, what do you know about what appears to be a road-racing track on South Warren Street, northeast of the campground?
What kind of conveniences, fuel, restaurants, convenience stores, etc. are located nearby? If there is no convenience store this could be something to consider adding as time and $$$ permit. Stocked properly they generate a decent income.
Does the campground have any kind of signage on the interstate prior to the exit both south- and north-bound? Think of the blue signs that "advertise" restaurants and gas stations.
- How much do they charge per night now?
- How much could the nightly rate be raised if improvements were made?
- How much would it cost to upgrade the electrical to provide 30A and 50A service at all the existing sites?
- How many more sites are there realistically available on the site?
- How about adding potable water service to all existing sites?
- Does the site already have a dumping station?
- How much would it cost to add one?
- What could you charge people to use the dumping station if they were not staying at the campground?
- Would it be worthwhile pursuing membership with any of the various campground associations like KOA, for example?
- Would it be worthwhile to pursue creating a simple web site to help promote the campground?
So many questions...
Count Natasha and I as "interested" in this proposition. I'm also interested in helping out with the forming of a business plan. I wrote a few when I was in college. I have some time while I'm currently searching for work, and I have access to some interesting research tools as part of my outplacement services from my last job.
Update - 3:30pm East Coast TimeThe owner of the property in question is listed as Lockhart, Inc. in Timmonsville. The property in question appears to be ~69.66 acres. Lockhart, Inc. also owns another parcel ~7.69 acres directly in front of the big parcel. Floyd's Convenience store is wrapped by the ~7.69 acre parcel.
I also discovered that there are two other commercial properties for sale nearby on Young Road. One is ~192 acres for $2.3 million ($12,000/acre) and a ~47 acre plot for $941,000 ($20,000/acre). I have no idea how long either has been on the market or the level of interest in them.
Residential property that is open land and not listed as part of a subdivision in Timmonsville appears to range from $2,500 to $12,000 per acre.
Assuming a best case ($2500/acre) scenario the campground property could be "worth" $174,150 and worst case (commercial at $20,000/acre) it's worth $1.4 million. The perceived value of the property will depend on how the purchaser plans to use it and the number of usable acres on the property.
Without seeing the books it would be difficult to appraise the value of the going concern. I made a few assumptions, a $10/night fee and 9 sites occupied per night (25%), and that works out to $32,850/year gross. The currently assessed property tax value of $91,000 would be roughly 2.7 times annual estimated gross revenue, and at $2500/acre valuation it would be just under 5 times gross revenue. If the numbers (occupancy and rental rates) are higher that improves things a bit.
If I had to guess the owners of the campground have been trying to sell it as a going concern and are having no luck. The auction is a last resort to get their money out by valuing it as a property, not a going concern. The big drawbacks for many developers (both commercial and residential) are likely the lake/pond. The proximity of I-95 is a plus or a minus depending on your planned use.
Cheers,
- John
The rate right now is $20 per night with less if you rent by the week or month. You could get more, maybe $30 or so if you upgraded.
The cost of upgrade on the electrical would have to be determined by an electrician.
You could easily get 80 more sites, maybe not all full hook-up on the site
There is already potable water at all existing sites
There is a dumping site and we have charged $10 to dump for non campers
There is also a propane station on site
I don't think it would be worthwhile going with KOA since it was originally a KOA site and they moved to a larger area further north
Dallas has already looked into a web site and we have one we have already purchased that would be available for use.
There is one billboard on the freeway that is hard to see. There are no "blue" signs because the owner didn't want to pay for them.
He had one buyer that had wanted to purchase this property and 1 other one but the deal fell through. The owner had been "throwing" the campground in because he feels it is worthless. He has not had it for sale until just recently but is property rich and cash poor and wants to unload some of his local properties.
There are a few restaurants in Timmonsville and many others just about 10-15 min away. The mall is also only about 10 miles from here.
Dallas and I have lived here for 18 months and love the area. There are 4 other camper families here that have been here for months or years. They have been renting out some of the permanent campers and also have a few in storage. The convenience store building also houses a garage and a diner.
Dallas took pictures of the campground today and will post a link to them later. Cat
Here is a link to some photo's I took of the place today.
http://busphotos.busconversionstuff.com/photo/index.php?cat=5 (http://busphotos.busconversionstuff.com/photo/index.php?cat=5)
I'll have more later, but these can give you an idea of the possiblities.
Dallas
So is this an absolute auction? The owner has to know that a commercial property literally abutting I95 is worth something. What is he expecting to get? What was the sale price the last time he had it under contract (the one thet fell through)?
Ross
You kind of have to remember, this is a small town with a lot of small town thinking.
It isn't like it was near a major population center, and all that entails.
Also, Myrtle Beach is too far away to be a real factor in real estate here.
We do have a Honda plant up the road about 3 miles, but they don't buy from local vendors. Everything they get is shipped in JIT.
To give you an idea of how small the thinking is here.... the local hardware store is closed on Saturdays.
Other than that, I have no other information on the sale or auction.
IHTH.
Dallas
I have done a little (very little) DD on this and William Lockhart appears to have done some development in the area - so I don't think he's going to give the property away - that being said anyone who uses the auction process to liquidate property is not interested in a lot of inquiries and wouldjatakes, they are usually only interested in a no-contingency cash offer by a single principal- recently I have seen properties sell at well over their value at auctions due to emotional purchases, so buyer beware - it also appears that part of the parent parcel may have been sold to one Saundra Parlor, so I'm not clear as to the size or shape of the remainder or what's for sale - Anyone interested in this property might want to keep this in mind - FWIW
Thanks Niles! I have very little experience at buying real property, so I'm really not the person to be asking.
Dallas
No Dallas - To the contrary - Thanks to you and Cat for posting the info and answering the calls and messages - I think we all appreciate your time and consideration - You have provided all the info that's necessary - Thanks again
I think it is a good opportunity, just a question of who my have an interest in the property on sale day. Please count me in.....a newguy from Yorktown Va......thanks Wayne
As versatile as this group is with the many different back grounds and professions there should be enough people to do all upgrades and development this property needs and get their labor costs converted to shares or paid out of profits annually or some type of sweat equity deal. For most of us it's probably a pipe dream but I know it Is doable for others. If one or two out of this group could purchase this property with the interest of every body in the group that would buy time to put together a better business plan. And for investors to get their ducks in a row. I for one could spend a few months every year there working carpentry, general labor and maintenance for a sweat equity deal. Just a thought. Proceed with business as usual
You guys might just evict me from the group, but I am fixing to be a real wet blanket.
I don't see how this is going to be feasible, given the amount of time involved and the variables.
First, there is less than a month in which to do Due Diligence, form a group of investors, form a entity to actually bid, etc. My biggest problem is with the Due Diligence... Niles has already found a potential claim to the parent parcel and who's to say that there aren't others? Has there been any search of the UCC filings, and are there any blanket assignments against the property and/or assets of this Lockhart?
Since this is a private sale auction, any leins against the property will still attach to the property title after the sale; only a bankruptcy sale or confiscation sale clears the leins, and even then there are exceptions.
I just don't see how there is enough time left to do the research necessary to avoid buying "a pig in poke", so to speak.
There are also a couple of other factors involved. This particular exit has been an area of interest for two major truckstop chains -- both Flying J and Pilot have shown interest in the 192 acre parcel you mentioned, although their level of interest is unknown at this point. There is currently a small fuel stop nearby, so there will be a moderate amount of truck traffic in the area -- which could detract from business. There is also the Swamp Fox campground at the next exit north, and the KOA. Darlington is 12 miles away, so the place may be on the outer fringe of any benefit from it.
These factors could be overcome by marketing -- but in the time frame alotted, I just don't see how we could make it with any guarantee that we wouldn't get stung at some point after the sale.
There is also the fact that I am almost 100% certain that the bidding will start well above $150k -- as someone said, Lockhart has done development in the area, and surely knows the potential. To me, being property rich/ cash poor means that they don't have the cash to develope it themselves -- but they know what they want for it from someone who does.
Sorry, but I just don't see it happening.
John,
I promise, you won't get tossed out of the group.
I agree that time is short and risks are real.
I do have some reservations on your Truckstop data though.
Flying J already has a major truckstop 33 miles north at exit 183, I think.
Pilot has a major fuel stop at exit 164, 16 miles up the road, as does TA.
Petro is situated at exit 169 so that isn't a factor.
It seems to me, the major truckstops have about saturated the market in this area.
If it doesn't sell to one of the members, thats fine, if it does, that's fine too.
I prefer to just be the messenger.
As far as I know, the auction is at the end of March which gives about 6 weeks. Everyone that is interested in the parcel should get together and start setting up a plan.
Dallas
Old campgrounds are a dangerous investment without real research..Last one we did in Texas had 40 acres to expand on. Enviromental impact was oked, state health said systems would pass , power dept said no problem with increased service..then as we started permits, city, county decided a $2600. per spot infrastructure impact fee was needed up front to cover incidental government expenses... police fire etc..and we were only adding 400 spots..go think,,,and we already had 3 months research in...gg04
Hi gang
New member ( Jack Hays ) southern illinois,,been trying to keep up lol - will do ok if you don't get to ,,technical,, I have bookmarked the campground on my (google earth) - thought those who have (google earth) could just click on the link and view the campground from the air!
If the link doesn't work you can put in the zip (29161 ) Dallas gave me and follow interstate 95 down to the next exit highway 403 and it's in the northwest corner off the exit -- double hoop with pond north of it.
If you don't have (google earth) download it if you can it's pretty cool - free http://earth.google.com
Actually it's more than pretty cool - it's fantastic!
You can also go directly to www.maps.google.com (http://www.maps.google.com) and just type 29161 on the search box.
No program to download. You will initially get a regular map of Zip code 29161, you can zoom in closer to Highway 403 off I-95 then click on the "Satellite" button on the upper right hand corner of the map or use the "hybrid" view.
Like Jax_n said, looks like a nice campground from the sky.
I couldn't resist posting the sat pic of the campground.....
Dallas, There's your Bus on the left.....
Nick-
COOL PIC!!!!! Nice roof Dallas! ;D
I have been following this thread and I hope something comes of it. All the "wet blankets" are actually very comforting!! Some of you folks really have some greaat knowledge and insight on such stuff, and it's VERY advantageous!!! I'm a little more starry eyed about such cool ideas, but always try to look up people to bring me down to earth- and know what they are talking about. Sounds like we have a healthy dose of both here.
If it should happen to come to pass that it's a good risk, I would also be interested. It just sounds so cool.
Anyway, I'll be watching to see!!
Chaz
Yeah, in that picture I had just Koolsealed the roof!
Noiw the Koolseal is down to the belly!
(Note to self: don't use Koolseal ever again. If you have the urge, hit your fingers with the waffle headed framing hammer!)
I think it would be neat if someone buys the place and puts some work into it.
I see a lot of potential here, but I can't do anything about it, so it's all up to you!
Dallas
I think the idea of a campground being owned by people who actually use them is a great idea. I'm not sure how the details would work, but perhaps something like a 'time share' with two individuals owning one site and splitting the usage would work. It'd give a bit more initial investment $$'s. Like a time share, the sites could be rented with the owners' agreement with a portion of the proceeds going to the party who'se period of usage is rented. We've stayed there twice for Dallas and Cat's gatherings and think there is a lot of potential. Some of the expansion costs would have to be spread around through all the owners, sort of like association fees. Alternately, the members wanting the newly expanded sites, which could be much nicer than existing sites, could cover a larger portion of the expansion of 'their' site. There are a lot of possibilities, as well as a lot of potential problems. I guess I'm thinking of it as a RV Park with condo ownership with partial ownership of common areas. Management fees could come out of rentals of sites. Anyway, it's an interesting idea with lots of potential. I'd be interested in participating in it, if there is enough interest from others.
David
I would think an LLC to limit the liability of the owners might be a good idea. As a potential investor, I would not want a disaster here to affect any of my other holdings. As part of putting an LLC together, an operating agreement should also be assembed that details the rights and responsibilties of all, as well as defines how sales, transfers (voluntary and involutary) would be handled, usage, captial improvements, credit for sweat equity etc etc etc would all be handled. If every one of these possiblities is not foreseen and a method developed to handle it, trying to get 20 or 60 or more people to agree later would likely generate the headache of the century.
But I agree, it is an intriguing possibililty...
I've bought and sold 1 campground and now own another in Missouri. I can tell you that there are a lot of hidden costs to running
a campground...there is also a lot of work involved. Most campgrounds are bought on potential earnings because you don't know how much skimming the previous owner did, one for me and one for Uncle Sam! If you had some revenue numbers you trusted, a rough(depends on a lot of factors) rule of thumb is a campground will sell for between 4 and 7 times gross revenues. It's been my experience that you need a visionary to work the project and take it to its potential, in this case, who would that be? I'm not sure I would want to be an investor as I have more than enought to say grace over here getting my new park to its potential, but I'm happy to give advice if wanted.
-Brent
A big thing in Florida is Campominiums. You buy your site then stay there as long or short of a period you want to. When not using the site the management rents the lot on a as needed basis and the money is split between the owner of said lot and the camp grounds.The amount of the split varies. For other Business ideas there's a camp ground in Alabama that caterers to motorcycles and has several different packages to offer for various needs. You can show up with just your MC and rent a tent,cabin or Rv. Your given a care package with tooth brush, shampoo, soap and washcloth and towel. or bring your own. It can also be used to host many different rallies, club events, family reunions, corporate parties and more. The business aspect and potential is huge and unlimited. Marketing is the key to success.
on the other hand, we could all just keep our $, and go where we want, when we want, and have no headaches. even several thousand will buy a lot of nights somewhere.
You just hit the nail squarely on the head Jim. I have no problem investing in a campground AS AN INVESTMENT. I have no problem owning recreational assets - a bus for example. Where I come unglued is when people start trying to sell me on some combination of recreation and investment. Emotion gets in the way of common sense in most of those situations and clouds everyone's judgement. If somebody shows me the numbers and I believe this thing makes sense as an investment, then I'm in. Alternatively, if someone sells me on it as recreation I could be in that way too.
We rent our campsites now - a seasonal one close to home & a couple of others for extended stays during the balance of the year when our seasonal one is too *** cold to stay at. We could buy resort property in any of the places where we currently stay for an extended period & maybe that would be a good idea - lord knows the market is red hot in a couple of the places we stay - but we have elected to clearly distinguish between investment and enjoyment. Maybe its just that my brain is too simple to figure out the combination but that's the way its wired & I can't change it.
Hey Ron,
Check out these campgrounds:
http://www.kickstandlodge.com/ (http://www.kickstandlodge.com/)
and
http://www.ironhorsenc.com/ (http://www.ironhorsenc.com/)
Both of these places were on the skids a few years back.
I bought stock in Wal-Mart so now I can stay there free legally I'm sure my investment gets me 2 parking spaces. Officer it's ok I'm co-owner
That's tooooo funny Ron
Quote from: Dallas on February 12, 2007, 11:45:35 AM
I do have some reservations on your Truckstop data though.
Flying J already has a major truckstop 33 miles north at exit 183, I think.
Pilot has a major fuel stop at exit 164, 16 miles up the road, as does TA.
Petro is situated at exit 169 so that isn't a factor.
It seems to me, the major truckstops have about saturated the market in this area.
Here are the major truck stops in the area:
Flying J:
Exit 181A (Blacksburg)
Pilot:
Exit 164
Exit 170
Travelcenters of America:
Exit 164
Petro:
Exit 169
Having worked for Flying J, and having been a high-volume customer of Pilot for years (I used to own AJ's Trucking LLC before I retired), I have learned their expansion strategies. The Flying J at Blacksburg is at or very near the end of its profitability cycle; it is of the original plaza design, and suffers from major plant failures regularly. Flying J has a policy of replacing a property by building a new location within 40 miles of an older property, then scaling back operations at the older property to basic fuel & C-store operations. Take a look at their operations in their home state (Utah), where the policy is that if you don't buy gas at a Flying J -- you walk ;). In the state of Utah, Flying J gas stations & fuel stops outnumber their competition 5 to 1.
Pilot, on the other hand, has a much more agressive expansion strategy -- especially in the southeast, which is their true market area. They allot a 12 mile market radius around each fuel stop/ gas station and are actively building locations to fill that plan. Pilot's fuel stops are built very cheaply on a "cookie cutter" plan, and operated at a very low profit margin; their plan lately has been geared more toward expansion rather than high profits.
So a major truck stop at exit 150 is a very real possibility within the next 3 to 5 years -- in fact, it is more like highly probable. TA and Petro are not likely to build that close to another location -- unless Flying J or Pilot do. If a large Pilot goes in, then it is almost a certainty that there will be a new TA and/ or Love's within 1 mile of it within a two year period. And then you also have to take into account the independents, such as Wilco and others. Wilco has adopted a pretty agressive strategy in the past few years, also.
As far as saturation, remember that we are talking about Interstate 95 here -- which has the highest rate of truck traffic of any interstate highway in the nation. On this interstate, there is no such thing as "market saturation" when it comes to fuel and truck parking, I think!
After cruising around the Google satelite imagery, I have to ask... what is the large warehouse on the other side of the interstate? Is that a Walmart Distribution Center? If it is, then I will bet anyone that there will be some sort of truckstop there within 2 years.
John,
The large warehouse on the east side of the interstate belongs to Ard Trucking. It is a major transhipment/transloading center for their operation.
By the way, that property also belonged to Lockhart up until about 8 years ago. The property between the warehouse and Hwy 403 still belongs to him and has a motel which leases some of the property from him.
Another problem with putting truckstops here is that this is all part of one large swamp.
I'm not saying that they won't put one here, but it'll cost them to make it stable enough to have heavy traffic on it all the time.
There is property behind the fuelstop on the SE side of 403/95 that is high, dry, and for sale.
The property 9situated between 95 and the fuel stop0, that Lockhart uses right now use to be a truckstop. He just had the old fuel tanks pulled out of the ground last summer.
Ross is right. There is no way 50 owners (at 1K a piece) will work. The only way to do it would be to set up a corporation and have shareholders. First off, 50 owners cannot "own a campsite". There are more owners than campsites. Unless the whole campground is revamped, there's only 35 sites, so do the math, 50 owners could not own or retire to their particular site. I think the original idea was to buy the campground, perhaps make some improvements, and continue to market it as a viable place for others to go camping at; and perhaps an occasional stop over by the "owner busnuts" if travelling.
We already tried our hand at a campground association. Trust me, they don't work. Yes, there was elected officials to be "the board" and everything was done in THEIR best interest. There were old people who didn't want kids in the place, dirt bikes on the designated track, and there were young people who didn't want bingo and ice cream socials. We also had problems with a particular owner who invited 10 friends up with him every weekend; they drank all night, and raced their cars around the campground. It ended one night after one of the kids crashed his car and the state police had to be brought in. Before that, nothing could be done to stop them, because HE OWNED his site. The dues and maintenance fees tripled in three years due to the mismanagement and it was VERY hard for the "common person" to do anything about it other than go to a board meeting and speak your mind. Also, the township had regulations about how long you could stay at the campground for tax purposes, so it remained taxed as a campground - not a permanent residence, "seasonal" was 180 days - so retiring there wouldn't work, because now it's a residence, and should be taxed accordingly. (Of course, we had retirees who were friends of board members that got away with it!) It was ridiculous and we got out. So, all in all, what we're trying so say is, if you want to buy it, keep it a campground - not an association where somebody going to be dissatisfied.
Quote from: Ednj on February 14, 2007, 05:06:02 AM
We already tried our hand at a campground association. Trust me, they don't work. Yes, there was elected officials to be "the board" and everything was done in THEIR best interest. There were old people who didn't want kids in the place, dirt bikes on the designated track, and there were young people who didn't want bingo and ice cream socials. We also had problems with a particular owner who invited 10 friends up with him every weekend; they drank all night, and raced their cars around the campground. It ended one night after one of the kids crashed his car and the state police had to be brought in. Before that, nothing could be done to stop them, because HE OWNED his site. The dues and maintenance fees tripled in three years due to the mismanagement and it was VERY hard for the "common person" to do anything about it other than go to a board meeting and speak your mind.
Hmmmmnnnn -- sounds like the SKP Coop Campground in Lakewood, NM! That is exactly what I meant in my earlier post about coop campgrounds! They don't work.
Do you have the land info for the property,its a beautiful place,with the lake .Is it a tax auction? crazy craig
No, it is not a tax auction. The owner is land rich and cash poor and is selling the campground, property across the road and property on the other side of the freeway, along with lots of other small properties in Florence County. I am not sure of the actual size of the campground property but it would be a good purchase for someone willing to put some work and advertising into it. You can give Dallas a call and he can give you what few other details we know as well as the owners name and the auctioneer company name and phone numbers for both. Cat
I am a lil late in my $.02 worth but, I think the idea of something like Capt Ron was talking about is a great idea for us as a group. Ownership in a lot, and using it like a time share and renting it out when not in use by the owner.Why not see if there is intrest in some other vacant land in some other area that may be zoned for this type of setup and look around at our convienance, rather that then a deadline of an auction. WE could own it and do with it as WE please. Using a board of directors or elected group to make the day to day decisions as far as running it. Vacant land is available in a lot of places off I-95 that might be interesting if this one falls through.
I was given a bit more information about the sale today. It is supposed to be scheduled for the 2nd week in April (no exact date known) and it is very, very possible that it IS a tax auction. Cat
I just joined here and me and my wife have actually been considering buying a campground and living in it. we have about 100k to spend How possible is it if people here do not buy into this idea .We just returned from staying in boyds in key west a month and did aa bit of boondocking off of 95 there and back.We have family in fl and virginia beach so that location would be great and we now own a home here in ct.Campgounds ive been lookinginto have been ranging from 400-500k and up.Sounds like a great idea of buying it in a group but there would have to be some management involved along with a board to keep the taxes,electric,and water related exxpenses in check.
i'm new just saw the date on the post duh sorry about that
actually, between then and now... it just might be affordable?
Welcome to the hobby!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
To further BW's point,
In this real estate market, it may have not sold !!!
Welcome & Have a Great Day.
Gary
The campground is still for sale. At the rally we just had one of the owners tried to talk a bus nut in to buying it. I don't know what they want for it but if you want to PM me or email me at my addy on my profile I'll give you the phone number of the Real Estate office handling the deal.
Quote from: bubbaqgal
The campground is still for sale. At the rally we just had one of the owners tried to talk a bus nut in to buying it. I don't know what they want for it but if you want to PM me or email me at my addy on my profile I'll give you the phone number of the Real Estate office handling the deal.
CAT I think you may have your campgrounds mixed up. Here is the info at the beginning of this thread.
Quote from: bubbaqgal
OT: Wanna buy a campground?
« on: February 08, 2007, 09:48:50 PM »
Is there anyone or group of busnuts that want to buy a campground? Lake Honeydew Campground is being auctioned off next month. One of the busnuts here suggested that maybe some of you would like to go in together and purchase the campground, do some work on it and have a campground and a haven for busnuts to stop at when traveling. Right now Dallas and I are trying to find some other place to hold our Timmonsville Rally in May. If the new owner does not keep this as a campground we will not be able to hold it here. Right now I know of 1 person that wants to look into buying it and 1 other person that would love to go in with others to make a group purchase. If anyone is interested, just let us know. Cat
Faith is not believing that God can, It's knowing that God will.
Also do I see a pattern developing here?
Nah, couldn't be. ;)
;D BK ;D
Here is the Timmonsville SC Honeydew Lake Campground:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&q=2028+Cale+Yarborough+Highway+Timmonsville,+South+Carolina+29161&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=2028+Cale+Yarborough+Hwy,+Timmonsville,+SC+29161,+USA&gl=ca&ei=pjmeS_7HDIH98Abr7-C6Cg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CAwQ8gEwAA (http://maps.google.ca/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&q=2028+Cale+Yarborough+Highway+Timmonsville,+South+Carolina+29161&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=2028+Cale+Yarborough+Hwy,+Timmonsville,+SC+29161,+USA&gl=ca&ei=pjmeS_7HDIH98Abr7-C6Cg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CAwQ8gEwAA)
I love GoogleMaps :D
Brian
Sorry about that. The campground where we work has been for sale for a couple of years now and I guess my brain is focusing on that one. This campground is many times better than the one in Timmonsville was. I didn't mean to get anyone else as confused as I am. :D
I also would be in intrested investing 1-2 grand
charlie
Quote from: bevans6 on March 15, 2010, 06:48:37 AM
Here is the Timmonsville SC Honeydew Lake Campground:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&q=2028+Cale+Yarborough+Highway+Timmonsville,+South+Carolina+29161&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=2028+Cale+Yarborough+Hwy,+Timmonsville,+SC+29161,+USA&gl=ca&ei=pjmeS_7HDIH98Abr7-C6Cg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CAwQ8gEwAA (http://maps.google.ca/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&q=2028+Cale+Yarborough+Highway+Timmonsville,+South+Carolina+29161&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=2028+Cale+Yarborough+Hwy,+Timmonsville,+SC+29161,+USA&gl=ca&ei=pjmeS_7HDIH98Abr7-C6Cg&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CAwQ8gEwAA)
I love GoogleMaps :D
That campground does not exist at all now. They destroyed the hook ups and sold the land. Now it just sits there empty.
Brian
Hello All
My name is Trevor
i am interested in investing for this idea
Thank you
trevor
Quote from: charlie on March 15, 2010, 07:16:49 AM
I also would be in intrested investing 1-2 grand
charlie
Seriously, Chris. I don't think that will buy the cg. I think is what you are saying that you would like to do something like going in with 50 or 60 other people.
I don't think that many people going in on something is a good idea. Often when there are 2 business partners they can't agree. Now multiply that by thirty??? Methinks, that if that many nuts from the board, bought a place like that, it would destroy some of our community. It would just bring strife and disagreements in, and we don't need more of those ;)
Now if somebody wants to buy that place, I'll bet Dallas, and Cat have that in good shape.
Just my .002
God bless,
John
If the address is "Cale Yarborough Highway"...
YEEHAW!
The financial arrangements for 30+ people would be called shareholders, not partners.
Hand over your cash for a share, wait for dividends, or a rising share price to sell them.
Can't see it happening...busnuts are too frugal.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
A limited partnership would be a good model for the campground. In a limited partnership, one entity is the "general partner" and they 'run' the investment. The rest of the investors are limited partners who have limited powers of decision but also have limited liabilities.
For example, Becky could set up a partnership with her as the general. Using her background and knowledge from managing the campground as her capital in the investment she could then solicit investments from limited partners. Limited partners would likely invest since she already runs the campground.
This is a simplistic explanation. In CA, you can ask a lawyer or a real estate broker to set one up and fill you in on the details. The out of pocket cost is relatively cheap. I don't know anything about TX's rules. But, from the comments on this board, I assume CA has more details.
I find threads like this interesting. A conversation started in 2007 picked up in 2010.
Mike
Not that it matters, BUT somone needs to go physically and see if the
campground even exists now.
Google and the maps are from 2007 about when the thread started.
Probably as old as 2005 but not recent aerial views by any luck.
By their maps including the GIS system, I am still in Florida with 2 buses
and 3 other vehicles.
Also where I am now just shows a field and a barn. No buses or anything else.
Someone mentioned a while ago that the campground was going to be sold & levelled
soon. That may have happened already. Just doesn't show on the maps yet.
Sorry to be a wet blanket on this.
Also, I see a lot of wishes to participate, However unless there is a Million $$$ to work with I doubt that anything could get done. That is because of the cost of infrastructure like water, sewage, permits, property tax, Inspections, insurance and many other things that would also need to be handled. Then the ongoing cost's of operation and maintenance.
You ain't gonna do that or any part of it for a couple of grand.
You can buy one already operating near me starting at $300k or a whole marina and campground that is fully in operation starting for about triple(??) that and has everything including fuel, store and covered boat slips.
Someone needs to do a lot more research before anyone jumps on the bandwagon offering to buy in. Just makes sense.
I spent time and money to start a very small one. So far I made a whole $10 last year on a $40,000 investment and at this rate I am still losing money even if I were to charge a reasonable rate. These are long term projects and like a bus they are never quite done before stuff needs to be replaced or other stuff goes wrong.
Dave...
Quote from: DrDave-Reloaded on March 16, 2010, 01:38:45 PM
Not that it matters, BUT somone needs to go physically and see if the
campground even exists now.
Google and the maps are from 2007 about when the thread started.
Probably as old as 2005 but not recent aerial views by any luck.
By their maps including the GIS system, I am still in Florida with 2 buses
and 3 other vehicles.
Also where I am now just shows a field and a barn. No buses or anything else.
Someone mentioned a while ago that the campground was going to be sold & levelled
soon. That may have happened already. Just doesn't show on the maps yet.
Sorry to be a wet blanket on this.
Also, I see a lot of wishes to participate, However unless there is a Million $$$ to work with I doubt that anything could get done. That is because of the cost of infrastructure like water, sewage, permits, property tax, Inspections, insurance and many other things that would also need to be handled. Then the ongoing cost's of operation and maintenance.
You ain't gonna do that or any part of it for a couple of grand.
You can buy one already operating near me starting at $300k or a whole marina and campground that is fully in operation starting for about triple(??) that and has everything including fuel, store and covered boat slips.
Someone needs to do a lot more research before anyone jumps on the bandwagon offering to buy in. Just makes sense.
I spent time and money to start a very small one. So far I made a whole $10 last year on a $40,000 investment and at this rate I am still losing money even if I were to charge a reasonable rate. These are long term projects and like a bus they are never quite done before stuff needs to be replaced or other stuff goes wrong.
Dave...
I already posted that the place does not exist and hasn't since it was sold at auction for over $300,000. It is not an area that would be worth fixing up again, especially since they paid so much for the land and would want at least that much for that. On top of that you would have to put in all water, sewer and electric since they destroyed what was there.
Bubbagal,
Funny, I heard that you did say that somewhere. ;D ;D
I guess that people are yet again not paying attention..as per usual...
No surprise there...
Dave.. ( and Yes I was the red headed stepchild! ) :o :o
Dave.
I think the latest feller was talking about buying into the cg where Dallas and Cat work right now. Cat already told us that this was not the one out in SC.
God bless,
John
If someone jumps into a campground investment via this internet resource...
Please send me your cash.
I am a Canadian.
I have some property on the riverside and this area is under-serviced in campgrounds.
As the boomers' travel plans awaken with a recovering economy, don't get left behind in the opportunity to participate in their spending!
My e-mail is in the profile. ;D
happy coaching!
buswarrior