Mister systems...... would appreciate users inputs on their mister systems and what ? how they are constructed. Pump, lines, nozzles, experience with them, etc.
I want to build a system and looking for current info. I've read older posts in past.
Hi Chessie, I have a Manifold, water system manifold which has the ability to shut off each line independently, I ran a line with PEX tubing to a kit from Home Depot that included pre set up misters that I could hook up to PVC pipe I have my water pump connected to a Fry's Electronics fob on off system with all of the faucets shut off, and the manifold to the misters turned on when I get to Baker grade or to Cajon Pass or any other large Hill I turn the fob on from the driver seat and off at the top of the hill works well I'm putting a filtering system to clean the water up some because Las Vegas water is very mineralized, lvmc...
Two mister threads going at the same time!
I installed a system several years back. It is not really misting, it is spraying water on the radiators. I drilled holes (maybe 1/16", but I don't remember for sure) in some PVC pipe and positioned the spray to hit the radiators. The system is supplied by my fresh water tank, so it merely requires the water pump being on. It works very well decreasing the temp on hills. Knowing that when I used the system I would likely forget that it was on, I used a 15 minute timer on the dash instead of a switch.
I know that using house water could create a mineral problem for the radiators, so I have been using swamp cooler coil cleaner on them periodically. So far it seems okay. Also, I have had to clean out the sprayer holes once or twice.
Should this be added to system?
https://www.amazon.com/Orbit-10109W-Misting-Calcium-Inhibitor/dp/B003OWLK5U/ref=pd_sbs_86_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B003OWLK5U&pd_rd_r=758KWF6H6MFWEAZ4DYCG&pd_rd_w=ZR6Xk&pd_rd_wg=LhYtk&psc=1&refRID=758KWF6H6MFWEAZ4DYCG&dpID=413Nr7tDS8L&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=detail
Any thoughts on using this system with a sureflo pump of its own?
https://www.amazon.com/HomeNote-Outdoor-Greenhouse-Trampoline-waterpark/dp/B07B4S5R74
Quote from: chessie4905 on June 28, 2018, 12:00:16 PM
Any thoughts on using this system with a sureflo pump of its own?
https://www.amazon.com/HomeNote-Outdoor-Greenhouse-Trampoline-waterpark/dp/B07B4S5R74
What is the orifice size? The nozzles have a 3 stamped on them - does that mean 0.3 MM (the same as my 0.012" nozzles that are rated at 0.5 GPH each), or something else? It's good to know that they Does Not Flyed Out!
Just bear in mind that any pump with a pressure switch may run into the same issue as I had, with it hunting on and off due to the low flow rate. Either you will need to make a bypass like I did to keep the pressure just below the switch's cutoff pressure, or you can buy some versions of SHURflo pumps with a bypass instead of a switch. The 8000-series pumps are for industrial and commercial use and can run continuously, but the smaller 2088 pumps are for intermittent use only.
John
The filter may be good. It seems to have good reviews.
The mister hose is over 26 feet long and has nine misters meaning that there is only one nozzle per three feet. Anyway, that type of setup is really for misting-- dispersing almost atomized water that lowers the air temperature by quickly evaporating. I am not sure that that is the best method to use for cooling a large radiator with a huge volume of air passing through it. I think we need a lot more water than that.
It appears to be a length of tubing and several nozzles. You can use only the tubing you need and space the number of nozzles as you desire. Since they are brass, they should be able to be drilled out as necessary. The system we use should be called sprayers, not misters. As far as dealing with pump turning cycling,you could tee in a return line to tank to bypass enough water to allow pump to run continually when activated and still allow proper pressure.
The body of each nozzle is brass with a 10-24 UNC thread, but the actual core is stainless steel. It could be tricky to accurately drill them out to a slightly larger diameter (you'd need some very sharp numbered drill bits and a good drill press), but nozzles are also available in many different orifice diameters.
For the bypass I used a 3/8" ball valve that is set at about a third open, and this produces the maximum pressure without the cutoff switch shutting it off. I originally used a 1/4" needle valve, but it didn't flow enough to be useful.
John
maybe a grocery store/vegetable produce manager has nozzles that will work well.
Some of the grocery store nozzles may be some type of plastic. The stainless steel core should drill out ok with titanium or carbide drill bit. Nozzles with that mounting thread may be available with larger orifices, although I have the drill press and it shouldn't be a problem.
I wonder if adding some rv antifreeze would be in order in cold weather to protect system. You wouldn't need to operate it then.
I originally bought a 15 mister kit from Home depot and installed it in front of the radiator. While it worked alright, still had to pull over at times to let it cool down. Then I drilled out two of the misters with a 1/16" and now it works great! Will pull down the temp even when pulling a grade over a 100 degrees. I tapped into my normal plumbing using my fresh water system and just bought a 12v solenoid water valve. I hooked it into the old wiring from the emergency shut off (that was taken out after converting to turbo engine) and used the emergency shut off switch on the dash for my misters.
Use 1/2" pex in a square around the size of the face of Radiators. One down the center. drill 4 holes on the uprights evenly spaced and 2 on the top and bottom cross pieces. One small piece hooked to the top of the square by inserting a tee. then the short piece from each side connected to one tee, from that tee back to a shutoff solenoid 12 volt with and on/ off switch at the dash. from the solenoid the pipe hooks into another tee just outside the pump for the regular water supply system from the fresh tank. I do have a calcium filter in there also as well as a second water pump that will only come on when that switch is flipped with its own pressure switch on the pump. That way it keeps the regular system separate from the mister system. After I drill the holes just a little smaller than the .012 misters I bought on amazon I just screwed them into the pex pipe and it works well. At first I just used the hole instead of the misters but it just steam cleaned the engine and didn't drop the heat and it emptied the water tank pretty fast 45 gallons. So the misters are just enough to cool it down if needed. But we really don't have an over heat problem just did it in case its needed ever.
By the way,irrigation solenoid valves at Home Depot are 24v.
On a misting system high pressure is the key or you are just spraying water. At the restaurants our systems are a 1000 psi if not the customers would need rain coats.At least go with a 150 psi you can buy the Aquatec 8800 pump in 12/24 volts ($125.00) even 150 psi with the right nozzles would save a lot of water and do a better misting job IMO
Quote from: Dave5Cs on June 29, 2018, 10:08:56 PM
Use 1/2" pex in a square around the size of the face of Radiators. One down the center. drill 4 holes on the uprights evenly spaced and 2 on the top and bottom cross pieces. One small piece hooked to the top of the square by inserting a tee. then the short piece from each side connected to one tee, from that tee back to a shutoff solenoid 12 volt with and on/ off switch at the dash. from the solenoid the pipe hooks into another tee just outside the pump for the regular water supply system from the fresh tank. I do have a calcium filter in there also as well as a second water pump that will only come on when that switch is flipped with its own pressure switch on the pump. That way it keeps the regular system separate from the mister system. After I drill the holes just a little smaller than the .012 misters I bought on amazon I just screwed them into the pex pipe and it works well. At first I just used the hole instead of the misters but it just steam cleaned the engine and didn't drop the heat and it emptied the water tank pretty fast 45 gallons. So the misters are just enough to cool it down if needed. But we really don't have an over heat problem just did it in case its needed ever.
I'm also using 1/2" pipe, in my case Sch.80 PVC into which I put some 10-24 UNC holes for the nozzles. Even with PTFE thread compound some of the nozzles were leaking, so I bought some fatter O-rings (they're 5/32" x 9/32" x 1/16") for them and slightly chamfered the holes in the pipes for the O-rings to partially sit inside. No more leaks! The nozzles' tiny original O-rings are a metric size (4mm x 6mm x 1mm) that has no inch-size equivalent, and they will seal only against a flat surface, not against a round pipe.
John
Quote from: luvrbus on June 30, 2018, 03:15:36 PM
On a misting system high pressure is the key or you are just spraying water. At the restaurants our systems are a 1000 psi if not the customers would need rain coats.At least go with a 150 psi you can buy the Aquatec 8800 pump in 12/24 volts ($125.00) even 150 psi with the right nozzles would save a lot of water and do a better misting job IMO
Vegtable departments (grocery) are 1400 psi IIRC.. (if I recall correctly :) )
The 24 volt Home Depot valves work on 12 volts.
Lol buy yourself a Eagle and forget about a misting system 8)
Rust, dropbox, engine in wrong way, extra wheels, costly suspension to repair, belts, wasn't made by GM....or MCI, also you like them....😉
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 01, 2018, 08:11:06 AM
Rust, dropbox, engine in wrong way, extra wheels, costly suspension to repair, belts, wasn't made by GM....or MCI, also you like them....😉
Frame doesn't crack, direct drive, air bags don't leak,no air frame plenum that is structural, rides like a Mercedes handles like a Lamborghini. Doesn't have a Cummins engine :)
49's don't have air frame plenums. VS2's have overdrive. Easy access to most engine items. Air bags cheap to replace vs. Torsilastics. Better styling. 4905's ride nice and handle well with front and rear sway bars std. I hate Mercedes.😄
Quote from: chessie4905 on July 01, 2018, 09:36:42 AM
I hate Mercedes.😄
I would not own one. But they are nice to drive. ;)
I will say his though, I prefer Lincoln over Cadillac. 8)
I really do like the baggage bays on a 4905 if you can keep the doors on,rust and all Eagle was a great bus,the drop boxes didn't give many problems most of those were self made by owners
Quote from: Iceni John on June 30, 2018, 06:21:44 PM
I'm also using 1/2" pipe, in my case Sch.80 PVC into which I put some 10-24 UNC holes for the nozzles. Even with PTFE thread compound some of the nozzles were leaking, so I bought some fatter O-rings (they're 5/32" x 9/32" x 1/16") for them and slightly chamfered the holes in the pipes for the O-rings to partially sit inside. No more leaks! The nozzles' tiny original O-rings are a metric size (4mm x 6mm x 1mm) that has no inch-size equivalent, and they will seal only against a flat surface, not against a round pipe.
John
John don't have any leaks with mine. May be the PVC pipe. I used Pex around a big patio I did too with no leaks. The first one I did with PVC and it did have a few leaks just brushed on some Teflon first before installing into pipe and it did the trick. ;D
Bill, I think that this is the one I used:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rain-Bird-1-in-In-Line-Irrigation-Valve-CP100/100197371
It's 24v. I do not know if it will also work with 12v or if they have others that are 12v.
OK, finally took the bait on this one. There are electric fans already on the radiators that so far have worked enough to keep the engine coolant within limits. So, how much benefit do radiator misters offer?
Going back to basics of engine cooling, engineering references define several key factors in engine cooling with a radiator.
1) Coolant flow, 2) airflow, 3) radiator efficiency.
Increasing coolant flow could be done by changing the size of the water pump pulley. Increasing airflow can be done by changing the pulley on the fan gear box (MCI). These would not cost much. Increasing radiator efficiency is costly due to minimum of recoring radiator or or building one with larger cores.
Much of the discussions around added cooling revolve around the mister systems and not much about experimenting with 1 or 2.
Lastly, I found some reference stating pure water is the most efficient coolant, better than standard 50/50. There are suggestions to going to higher water mix or even pure with with antioxidant additives.
For those doing misters, you might try a 50/50 water to alcohol mix as that provides better evaporation.
Quote from: windtrader on July 01, 2018, 08:00:56 PM
OK, finally took the bait on this one. There are electric fans already on the radiators that so far have worked enough to keep the engine coolant within limits. So, how much benefit do radiator misters offer?
Going back to basics of engine cooling, engineering references define several key factors in engine cooling with a radiator.
1) Coolant flow, 2) airflow, 3) radiator efficiency.
Increasing coolant flow could be done by changing the size of the water pump pulley. Increasing airflow can be done by changing the pulley on the fan gear box (MCI). These would not cost much. Increasing radiator efficiency is costly due to minimum of recoring radiator or or building one with larger cores.
Much of the discussions around added cooling revolve around the mister systems and not much about experimenting with 1 or 2.
Lastly, I found some reference stating pure water is the most efficient coolant, better than standard 50/50. There are suggestions to going to higher water mix or even pure with with antioxidant additives.
For those doing misters, you might try a 50/50 water to alcohol mix as that provides better evaporation.
The old Arrowhead Radiator website used to have a list of fourteen things that would improve cooling of high-performance engines (not diesels specifically), but sadly that webpage no longer exists. There was a section devoted to coolant flow rates through the radiator, and from what I vaguely remember it said that it made no difference whether it flowed slowly or quickly - if slowly, the coolant lost more heat but there was less coolant doing so in any given time period, and if quickly there was more coolant flowing through the radiator but it lost less heat in the process, in other words the overall heat loss to all the coolant wasn't different. I guess that makes sense?
Airflow definitely does make a difference, maybe more than anything else. One priority when I rebuilt my entire cooling system a year or two ago was to maximize airflow through the radiator, so I sealed every gap or hole that air could leak through between the core and the fan, I used a high-performance 9-blade fan instead of the heavy old 6-blade fan, the fan now rotates the opposite direction than before to improve airflow out the shroud, I made a duct in the shroud's lip that should control fan blade turbulence better, and I replaced the hydraulic pump, fan motor and speed control solenoid valve to eliminate any internal leakages that would prevent the fan motor from turning as fast as possible. Now at fast idle there's a strong airflow through the radiator, more so than ever before, so I can imagine that airflow at 2100 RPM engine speed (about 1800 RPM fan speed) would be considerable.
To improve radiator efficiency I now have about 10% larger surface area, 27% more tubes per row, the tubes are now dimpled, and the fin count is much higher than before. It still has 6 rows like before because I cannot fit a thicker core onto my tanks, and some folk think that any rows more than six don't contribute much if any additional cooling because the air is so heated by the time it's passed through six rows that it won't cool additional rows much more.
I know that radiator misters are a BandAid at best, but I've now done all I can to improve the cooling system itself. At this point, even a few degrees cooler temperatures when climbing hills in hot weather is worthwhile, so my new mister system (even though it's cost me almost a hundred dollars per degree!) is worth having. If I need still more cooling, then I'll put in a second radiator on the other side that will take coolant from the 1" outlet on the driver-side thermostat housing that presently supplies the heaters and defroster - just turning them on lowers temperatures by a few degrees, so a proper radiator should do more than that.
I'm going to slowly start increasing the water content of my coolant specifically to improve its efficiency. In sunny SoCal I don't need much freeze protection, and as long as I maintain the correct pH and additives strength it should be OK to do so without risk to the engine. I'm thinking I can go to at least 55% water, maybe up to 60%, without problems. We'll see. I like the idea of adding alcohol to the mister water - that's something else to look into!
John
Hi Don like I said It was just to have it in case. Used it once to see if it worked and it did the second time with the misters. But we really don't have the problem. Redundancy is a good thing. I clean the radiators after a long haul with the same stuff I clean Ac condensers with. Spray it in and rinse it out. Blue cool Non- acidic.
Now for you putting a smaller pulley on your water pump on your 2 stroke. Good luck with that one. ;D
If it takes 970 BTU to evaporate one pound of water, my quick calculation is that my mister system will absorb about 40,000 BTU per hour, or about 666 BTU per minute. (5 gallons of water lasts about one hour: that's about 41 lbs of water, times 970 is about 40,000.) A 6V92 at full whack is putting about 12,000 BTU per minute into the coolant, so my mister system is responsible for about 5% of its overall cooling. It seems to be lowering coolant temperatures by about 5 degrees. Does this sound correct?
John
I looked a fair bit for any real studies done on the additional cooling from a misting system added in front of a radiator. Could not find anything close.
It seems quite simple to obtain real measurements. Adding a water temp sensor on the input and output of the radiator would measure the cooling provided by the radiator. Run and measure with the mister on and off. Simple as pie.
The aux fans seem to make a difference on my bus but I've pondered doing this to take readings of the actual added cooling from the fans.
Any suggestions on placing a temp probe at those locations? It seems the most accurate placement is in the actual water flow. Second best would be attached to the hose strap on the exterior. Maybe either is sufficient for purposes of understanding just the difference in cooling.
Quote from: windtrader on July 01, 2018, 10:14:41 PM
I looked a fair bit for any real studies done on the additional cooling from a misting system added in front of a radiator. Could not find anything close.
It seems quite simple to obtain real measurements. Adding a water temp sensor on the input and output of the radiator would measure the cooling provided by the radiator. Run and measure with the mister on and off. Simple as pie.
The aux fans seem to make a difference on my bus but I've pondered doing this to take readings of the actual added cooling from the fans.
Any suggestions on placing a temp probe at those locations? It seems the most accurate placement is in the actual water flow. Second best would be attached to the hose strap on the exterior. Maybe either is sufficient for purposes of understanding just the difference in cooling.
I do actually have three additional temperature gauges back by the engine, one for each cylinder bank's coolant temperature at the thermostat housing, and a third for the coolant outflow temperature from the radiator, theoretically to see what's the temperature difference through the radiator. It's not precise however, because A) the gauges are cheapo Chinese full-sweep Stewart Warner ones that all displayed slightly different temperatures when I tested them in boiling water before I used them, and B) the third gauge for outflow temperature is not in the actual return pipe to the water pump, but instead is in a T-fitting at the lower tank's drain valve, so it's not in actual flowing coolant. I'm seeing about 20 to 25 degrees difference between the top and bottom of the radiator, ish, but I can't guarantee the accuracy of those numbers! Unfortunately that doesn't seem to jive with the few degrees of temperature reduction I'm getting from the misters, so who knows? I think at this stage it's a classic case of too much information but not enough knowledge! Where are the experts here who can chime in and add some real knowledge to the subject?
John
Do you also use a water wetter?
Could you use one of those infared thermometers? The cheap ones probably don't show an accurate temperature but should at least accurately show temperature differential between locations. And seeing as it is a single instrument the differential should be more accurate.
You could even test between cylinders with a caveate of sorts in that all engines vary a bit between cylinder temps.
All this discussion about cooling seems quite complex to me...
I think you mostly need to have the cooling system in good working order.
If my bus runs hot on a hot day, I just back off the accelerator, shift down a gear, and get over the hill a little slower...
JC
Agree with JC. And the higher you point the nose of the Bus in the air the hotter the mechanical s get if everything else remains the same.
Yes make sure your cooling system is clean and run test strips every so often to see if the correct balance is there. If not add what it needs and learn how to drive it up a hill slower and in a gear that won't make the engine work harder or lug down. Keep the rev's up. ;) I like to put it on auto pilot and go back and make a sandwich while waiting for the Bus to crest the hill... 8)
Oh, I sure miss the automotive engineers that once frequented the conversion boards...
On misters, if my memory serves...
There are lots of big variablesn one mister system's success can be another's failure.
The actual coverage of water on the rad is problematic due to the wind patterns entering the rad cavity. At speed, some misters are not wetting anything except a thin strip behind them.
Condition of radiator is different, bus to bus. Both deterioration and construction.
Speed of air flow, current humidity levels, air temperature, temperature of water being misted, volume of misted water.
Small changes to some can have big effect on calculation.
What do the manufacturers do about cooling in hot regions...?
Neat science, better explained by the peeps who earn their living doing this stuff.
Moral of the story? Fix cooling system, size correctly, upgrade to dimples. Save water for drinking.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
And On MCIs, seals around split radiators are not missing or cracked. Those huge squirrel cage fans will pull air thru the least obstructed area, so if the rubber seals are not sealing, air will be pulled from around the radiators, not thru them, lvmci....
Given the age and state of these old coaches, it makes sense to really inspect and repair the airflow path ensuring everything is fully sealed and unobstructed as delivered.
The engineering and science involved to make informed mods is galaxies beyond me and probably most of us here. Those working on the original design had a variety of variables to balance including raw material costs, production costs, complexity of design, maintainability, etc. So far more than simply optimizing cooling under conditions experienced a small percentage of time. Side note is the obvious second roof skin like Dave has on his bus; those destined to operate in 100+ days nearly everyday.
The temp probes need to display while underway. The IR units is a good idea but only work while the bus is stopped so it can capture temp only at a single moment. Far more insight would be derived while underway and receiving dynamic updates show response to varying conditions.
There are thermistors which are very small to capture temp. I used them in an electronic project a few moons ago. they are dirt cheap and really small. I'd bet you can slip one into the flow by simply sandwiching the thin wire between the hose and the radiator connector and clamp it up. The wire can be very thin gauge so sealing shouldn't be an issue.
Back a few decades ago, buses were designed with the skills of the drivers as an integral part of its operation. Such as, for example, the cooling system not being perfect, the drivers were trained, and expected to make up for the shortcomings by watching the temperature gauge, backing off the pedal, and downshifting as necessary, on a hot day.
Modern vehicles now have taken the driver out of the equation with technology. All a driver has to do now is steer, the machine does pretty well everything else on it's own. And soon not even a driver will be needed...
JC
Quote from: Dave5Cs on July 02, 2018, 07:29:48 AM
Agree with JC. And the higher you point the nose of the Bus in the air the hotter the mechanical s get if everything else remains the same.
Yes make sure your cooling system is clean and run test strips every so often to see if the correct balance is there. If not add what it needs and learn how to drive it up a hill slower and in a gear that won't make the engine work harder or lug down. Keep the rev's up. ;) I like to put it on auto pilot and go back and make a sandwich while waiting for the Bus to crest the hill... 8)
I agree 100%. One thing I added that makes it easier to control temperature when climbing long grades is my turbo boost gauge. It tells me exactly how hard the engine is working, i.e. how much fuel it's burning and therefore how much heat it's producing. I know now that I can climb a steady 6% grade in all but the very hottest weather without overheating if I keep boost to no more than 18 PSI, on a 3/4 throttle in 3rd gear at about 1900 to 2000 RPM. The moment boost exceeds 20 PSI I see an instant rise in temperature. And if it's still getting hotter, then I drop to 2nd. The mister system is for those rare occasions when sensible and focused driving isn't quite enough to control heat, and I don't intend to use it unless absolutely necessary. It's just another tool in the toolbox.
John
I Agree JC, I shot the 1st ever driverless 18 wheeler demonstration at Hoover Dam a couple years ago, for Damler Freightliner Detroit Diesel, Nevada gave the first license to a driverless trucks, the pitch from the prez of Mercedes Benz was the driver was now a load coordinator, setting up delivery times and getting next loads, all thru the satellite dish on the truck,the funny part was the Interior Dept. wouldn't let the truck drive itself across the Dam! It was also the largest, longest throw, projection image, with using the Dam as the screen. for me the best part was getting to work with my son for the first time on a shoot, lvmci...
You guys do know that Hayden makes a mister in a kit the truckers use dosen't look like it the tank hold much water to me but has a high pressure pump so maybe it doesn't need that much water
Quote from: luvrbus on July 02, 2018, 01:44:38 PM
You guys do know that Hayden makes a mister in a kit the truckers use dosen't look like it the tank hold much water to me but has a high pressure pump so maybe it doesn't need that much water
Yup, but Hayden's kit is so naff. Alliance Bus Lines in Ontario CA had a Super II like mine, and they tried the Hayden mister in it. Apparently it did tiddly-squat. That's why my mister is (I hope) better than the Hayden one. At least mine does something!
John
All the home grown systems use to much water,LVMCI has a nice system he installed but he left it on for a few mintues in the shop and there was water everywhere on the floor.To me it seems like a system like that would be worthless like a Evap cooler in a high humidity area.I am missing something I thought the whole idea is to cool the air before it reaches the radiator,the fan sucking water in acts like a sand blaster I have seen it on to many radiators
QuoteThe actual coverage of water on the rad is problematic due to the wind patterns entering the rad cavity. At speed, some misters are not wetting anything except a thin strip behind them.
BW said this earlier. I'm thinking that maximum cooling occurs through heat transfer via the water and wetted fins. Like, sweat on the body provides more cooling that just air cooling the body. Evaporation occurs from the air being forced along by the fans and onto the fins of the radiator cores. Temperatures are lower than if only air flow with no liquid for added evaporation.
Clifford - I could not find any technical documentation with that Hayden unit, not even a simple line chart showing cooling without and with the mister. More like a shopping channel item - catchy but hardly well designed or of true quality. And good point that efficiency of misters diminishes as the ambient humidity increases. Makes one ponder how well misters would work on a long 6% grade where it would be hot and humid. Seems high humidity and low elevations go hand in hand so unlikely to need to worry about this issue in mostly flat lands.
JC - makes sense less engineering is required if drivers are expected to manually in real time know just what is happening and making adjustments to keep the equipment running "in spec" and as operating as designed and intended to be used (with experienced drivers)
John - That agrees with what others say.
Excessive water simply is unnecessary. The maximum needed is to coat the radiator fins and keep them wetted.
Sorry guys but I never owned a bus that ran hot so there was never a need for so called misters for me,I could heat my MCI 8 with a 8v92TA if I kept my foot it on a long pull,the Eagle with a 8v92TA was never a problem.There is a old saying when you push the throttle and don't gain speed it's lugging find another gear
How about a humidity sensing switch that injects washer solvent solution when humidity is really high........
What hasn't caught on here, is that there are 2 kinds of water sprayers. The misting system, which cools the air just like in your back yard or restaurant, which does not work above 25% humidity and the sprayer system, taking misters and drilling out the hole to allow streams of water. This last system doesn't transfer the heat from the radiator fins and cores to the air, rather transfers heat from fin & core to the water. On my radiator spray system the 3 sprayer per side, alternate and divides the radiator into 7 sections, air cooling, water cooling every other section. The water carrying the heat, exiting the engine side, becomes a heavy mist, sprinkling over the engine parts as it is pushed past the engine causing a second layer of misting cooling, possibly helping to accelerate the speed of the air flowing towards the road, creating a greater vacuum effect with the weight of the air, because of the droplets of water, based on speed of the bus, lvmci...
Ok why are folks calling this a misting system Tom the way you describe it is like a flood system like the difference between a drip system and sprinkler system ,thanks for the 26% number I couldn't remember that number for the life of me
Clifford-- I think that that is what I was saying about my system; it is not really misting, it is spraying. That is why I don't even use nozzles-- just holes in a PVC pipe. The spray is not aimed at the radiators but rather parallel to the front of the radiator with the assumption that the airflow will just pull the water in. The system works well but may use more water than a better engineered one. Since it is off my main tank, I am not worried about how much water it is using. It only needs to be on for 5-10 minutes at a time anyway.
When I started with this bus I did have a heat problem. I tried several things to deal with it:
1. Made a jig to partially hold the engine doors open to allow more air to pass through
2. Put a mud flap forward of the engine to create a negative pressure to also increase airflow
3. Put air scoops on the intakes
4. Add the spray system as the ultimate back up
All helped to some degree. I also changed my driving habits to keep the rpm's between 1600 and 1800 at all times while climbing, which may be the most important alteration. It should go without saying that a properly sized cooling system should just work without needing to be sprayed, but adding a spray system is certainly an efficient alternative to redesigning/rebuilding the dubious cooling that some of these came with.
Quote It should go without saying that a properly sized cooling system should just work without needing to be sprayed
Like Lin and Clifford are thinking. For stock motor/coach configurations, maybe all these extra cooling mods are just restoring lost efficiency from poor sealing or other defects in the original system.
Yes Clifford, I agree, they both spray out water, one a stream, one a mist. I've been looking for a nozzle that creates a flat spray, thinking it would spray a wider, flatter area, increasing the radiators tubes directly hit with the spray and would use less water for shorter amount of time, tom...
Quote from: windtrader on July 03, 2018, 12:07:27 PM
Like Lin and Clifford are thinking. For stock motor/coach configurations, maybe all these extra cooling mods are just restoring lost efficiency from poor sealing or other defects in the original system.
The reason for me to make a mister system was very simple - my bus's radiator is slightly undersized compared with an Eagle's that was parked near me. Eagles are well known for having fewer cooling issues than other makes, and one look at the size of their radiators tells you why. I managed to make my new radiator a few inches taller than before, but I could not make it any wider, lower or thicker due to its mounting frame and space. All we can do is work with what we have, and use imaginative solutions to the inevitable problems that bus ownership entails. Heck, I'd even consider radiator scoops if they worked . . .
John
There are mixed reports on scoops. Some have tried ready made ones that are kind of narrow and did not find them helpful. I had some made according to the design recommended by Fred Hobie, who said he got good results in his own tests. I don't know if his blog is still available or not. Do mine work? I think they help a little, but who knows.
I do not recall reading about scoops from Fred Hobe, but I listened closely when he told a few of us the story one evening at Arcadia back a bunch of years ago.
Scoop needs to stand off 3" and come forward half way or better on the screens.
His test set actually ran more air than the fans could swallow. Propped open the fan door to BYPASS the fans... crazy like a fox... took off up the highway, watched temp climb and then watched it drop right back down.
Try that with your personal military spec engine, brave internet warriors...
Forget those little Mickey Mouse ears, they actually roll the air OUT of the radiator cavity.
An engineer who does airliner engine intakes was working on this with Mr Hobe. They had some fun, calculations on napkins, proved their theories and that was it.
Why? Because busnuts will not buy stuff. No return on the investment needed to finish the job properly, as soon as one set got out there, the copying would begin.
At times, we are our own worst enemies...
The pioneers had no Internet to wipe their noses and a$$e$.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
One thing I noticed when I was last in Mexico traveling by bus, the new long-distance buses there mostly have some sort of scoops or louvers to encourage air into their radiators. They're usually simple vertical angled panels a few inches wide pointing forward at about 45 degrees or so, with a few per radiator opening. Certainly nothing high-tech, but presumably they work. They looked like they were original from the factory, not some after-market doodad cobbled together. Next time I'm there I'll pay closer attention to them and see if I can replicate something myself, just like BW says "as soon as one set got out there, the copying would begin"! If they help even a tiny bit without any downsides, then why not? I just don't want it to look too hoky or amateurish.
John
The new Prevost H3-45, and maybe the older ones too, have 45 degree angled louvers on the radiator door. Looks like it would direct the air flow into the rad when the bus is at speed...
I know for sure the rad scoops you see on some old buses don't work... You'll get as good or better cooling without them. They are ugly, and they really make your bus look like it has a cooling problem...
JC
Seriously? The air scoops don't help? Is that folklore or factually proven?
Quote from: windtrader on July 03, 2018, 07:12:24 PM
Seriously? The air scoops don't help? Is that folklore or factually proven?
You get a scoop out 7 or 8 inches they work,you can check it yourself with a poor mans wind tunnel that is a ball of yarn at 30 mph you can see the wind pattern by watching the yarn,the R&M scoops are for decoration they are useless for helping with cooling,Richard never sold his scoops except for dress
I tried the scoops years ago and they do not work.
As I typed, those small fibreglass scoops, popularly mounted on MC 7/8/9, we're found by Mr Hobe's engineer friend, to roll the air OUT of the radiator cavity.
Waste of time, take them off, they look silly.
Now, if you want to build a bigger set, similar to Fred Hobe's... then you are on the right airflow managing path.
The air flow has to be both captured and retained in the cavity.
What we might think "makes sense" usually doesn't, when it comes to airflow around a bus.
There can be completely opposite effects between city speeds, rural highway, and the 80 mph superslab.
Adding a crosswind can really change the available air to capture.
It would be quite a surprise to add doo-dads to the rads, and then overheat because the wind is blowing in the wrong direction...
Unfortunately, the engineers grew tired of arguing with numb skulls, and don't post much anymore.
We used to be treated. Mr Sheaves was on loan to Isuzi from GM and jumped on the chat during his lunch in Japan, evening here... oh I wish I had written some of that stuff down...
I digress...
I don't recall if there are any pics on Fred Hobe's site, purposeful or in the background, that show his scoops? Maybe the air intake modification shots?
Unless a busnut has done a serious hotrod engine upgrade, that has broached the original cooling design, return what you have to factory condition and worry about other stuff?
Fred's first question: how are the cones in your squirrel cages?
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Forget the scoops. When you need them the most, on a hardclimb at 35 mph, the air flow required would require deep scoops. At high speed climbing moderate grades, the large scoops would create additional drag on the coach. For the best benefit for the cost, misters is the best deal and only needed when necessary. The water source depends on room and coach layout and main water tank size. I've heard of guys spending extra money on thicker radiators with special tubes, but wonder if they actually helped much.
I wonder I plumbing heater lines through a separate rdiator with an electric cooling fan would be worth pursuing. A couple bypass valves could be incorporated for cool weather.
Overheating? Turn on the stock coach heaters.
Everything that sheds heat helps.
There have been busnuts that were going to re-work the stock HVAC space under the coach and turn it into a radiator use, ducted in and out the bottom...
Any of them still on here? Speak up!!
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
The right fan and radiator for the amount of heat rejection required is all that is needed,those engine will run warm @1500 to 1700 rpm and that is a problem for buses owners. The water pump gpm is there all it needs is capacity and air flow
I have a MCI 7 which has a 8V92 and Allison 740 automatic. I have a hard time keeping it under 190. I have completely resealed the radiators, recored them with upgraded radiators, had a separate trans cooler put in with it's own independent cooling system, misting system using 1/4 inch cooper tubing with 40th inch holes drilled ever 2 inches looping back and forth across the radiators, air scoops, do they help, I don't know. After years of frustration and much thought I installed a 3/4 foot radiator out of a cab over tractor on the back. Took off the rear doors and installed the radiator. It has 6 12 inch cooling fans which are wired independent of each other so if one fails they all don't. Have the misters looping back and forth across it also. To make it look presentable I put a Freightliner grill on it and bright diamond plate on each side to dress it up. I also put LED lights on it to make it look better. I still have to be very careful or it will go to 200. So I have tried everything people here have suggested and still have problems. I don't care how fast I get to the top of the hill as long as I get there and the bus is not hot.
ED
Quote from: edvanland on July 04, 2018, 10:21:29 AM
I have a MCI 7 which has a 8V92 and Allison 740 automatic. I have a hard time keeping it under 190. I have completely resealed the radiators, recored them with upgraded radiators, had a separate trans cooler put in with it's own independent cooling system, misting system using 1/4 inch cooper tubing with 40th inch holes drilled ever 2 inches looping back and forth across the radiators, air scoops, do they help, I don't know. After years of frustration and much thought I installed a 3/4 foot radiator out of a cab over tractor on the back. Took off the rear doors and installed the radiator. It has 6 12 inch cooling fans which are wired independent of each other so if one fails they all don't. Have the misters looping back and forth across it also. To make it look presentable I put a Freightliner grill on it and bright diamond plate on each side to dress it up. I also put LED lights on it to make it look better. I still have to be very careful or it will go to 200. So I have tried everything people here have suggested and still have problems. I don't care how fast I get to the top of the hill as long as I get there and the bus is not hot.
ED
198 won't hurt anything.
neither will 200.
The 16v92 gen sets 600kw I worked on last spring all had 190 degree thermostats they all ran around 198 degrees when the T stats were fully open which scares the hell out of most bus people,mainly because of the internet
My little 6V71 runs between 185 and 200 most of the time depending on the pull. Up the hump to Pahrump at 17 MPH ran 210 and was fine over the top and a few minutes later down to 195. the long pull through the mountains of New Mexico a very long and steep pull ran in August 200 at 20 MPH 1st gear all the way no problem.
2 years ago ran the heavy duty cleaner through the system and was pretty clean. Checked rads for clean and they were and in good shape. Blow the Blue stuff through the fins and rinse. Maintanance seems to help on these beasts, LOL.
Heavy duty antifreeze 60 water-40 coolant as well and I use Delo 100 too... ;D 8)
Evanland...have you checked the accuracy of your temp gage/s. Also, you could reduce injector size.
Quote from: edvanland on July 04, 2018, 10:21:29 AM
After years of frustration and much thought I installed a 3/4 foot radiator out of a cab over tractor on the back. Took off the rear doors and installed the radiator. It has 6 12 inch cooling fans which are wired independent of each other so if one fails they all don't. ED
Ed, what is the direction of airflow? Do the fans blow hot air out of the engine room, or do they pull in cool air from outside?
John
Quote from: Dave5Cs on July 04, 2018, 12:07:40 PM
My little 6V71 runs between 185 and 200 most of the time depending on the pull. Up the hump to Pahrump at 17 MPH ran 210 and was fine over the top and a few minutes later down to 195. the long pull through the mountains of New Mexico a very long and steep pull ran in August 200 at 20 MPH 1st gear all the way no problem.
2 years ago ran the heavy duty cleaner through the system and was pretty clean. Checked rads for clean and they were and in good shape. Blow the Blue stuff through the fins and rinse. Maintanance seems to help on these beasts, LOL.
Heavy duty antifreeze 60 water-40 coolant as well and I use Delo 100 too... ;D 8)
Watch it running one at 200F you need 50w not 40W lol :o :o
It runs good at 200, So prior to running up a hill I have to do an oil change to 50 then on the other side do it back again, LOL
Maybe Dry ice on the radianator would help? ;D
Vanman you are a Genius. I will PM you and let you know some other places,LOL :D
8)
Here's those pictures, lvmci...
I kept it simple used 1/4 in tubing and rain bird misters (9), attached to the radiator door, 3 across 3 down, connected to the water supply with a 12 v value, relay to water pump. One switch turns on pump and value, also installed a idiot light so I do not forget it is on and drain the tank.
Thanks for the pics. Helps in putting a system together.
Here is what I did on the Fishbowl, just drilled holes every inch or so.
Lol buy yourself a Eagle and forget about a misting system
Take me Lord, I have read and seen it all.
BCO