So I've been having an intermittent problem with starting the bus. Thought I had it handled, since it didn't rear it's ugly head for a few weeks. When i push the start button (on the dash or in the rear makes no difference) sometimes I get a "click click click click" on and on with dash lights flashing everytime it clicks. First thing I did was disconnect and inspect all battery cable connections from batteries to starter and everything in between, clean and reinstall. A few days later, same problem. I replaced the starter solenoid in the rear junction box just for good measure, and cleaned the connection to tje solenoid at the starter, which was loose. All seemed good in the world again until yesterday. This time I went to the rear and jumped the starter solenoid and no more clickety click, but the first revolution of the starter was very slow then it started spinning normally.
I had my wife watch the voltage meter that reads directly from the batteries while I was cranking it and it dropped as low as 18.5 while cranking, seems way to low to me. I suspect tired batteries so I have them shut off now with the maintainer disconnected, going to let them set overnight and do a load test. I suspect that they will fail, but just for knowledge sake, does anyone know what the lowest acceptable cranking voltage is? Series 60 12.7.
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What starter is on the bus ?,a 24 volt system Delco shouldn't have more than 1 volt drop when starting,the 12 volt system is a 1/2 of a volt, I would say it is battery time
Quote from: luvrbus on May 30, 2018, 12:25:03 PM
What starter is on the bus ?,a 24 volt system Delco shouldn't have more than 1 volt drop when starting,the volt system is a 1/2 of a volt, I would say it is battery time
It's the big heavy sucker.
I'm leaning towards batteries too. These 8D are over 4 years old and i realize a lot of guys never get that long a life from the 8d. I have a maintainer that runs on them is probably the only reason they lasted this long. I have a suspicion that the shop that did the engine swap probably didn't help the issue any, there was talk about trouble getting it primed so most likely they ran the batteries into the ground trying to get it started. Problem first appeared right after I got it back from the shop.
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Hi all!
You will know far more about this than I...but if the 8D's are going bad with a 40 or 42 MT (or similar) the batteries will kill the starter. Been there...done that.
And your bus is different from mine, so I don't know if checking the shifter to make sure it's in neutral will matter. Anyhoo...just wanted to say hi, and give you the info you all gave me a couple of years back :)
Respectfully ...
I know this has been beaten to death here but have you checked and cleaned your battery cable posts? Hidden corrosion can also suck down the cranking voltage.
Cranking voltage and amperage are related. Might be time for new battery cables? Twenty four volts should markedly reduced the need for heavy cables gage.
But ... cables are kinda cheap compared to other Bus Conversion repairs. Consider just imagining the system is 12VDC and run cables to suit? Very low voltage drop.
Can you bump/push start the Coach? :)
Respectfully ...
You probably have the 42MT Delco they take some amps and voltage,yours may have the low voltage protection device also since your engine is a DDEC that will keep it from engaging lol save your money and get a MT39 Delco starter
Quote from: HB of CJ on May 30, 2018, 01:00:54 PM
Respectfully ...
I know this has been beaten to death here but have you checked and cleaned your battery cable posts? Hidden corrosion can also suck down the cranking voltage.
Cranking voltage and amperage are related. Might be time for new battery cables? Twenty four volts should markedly reduced the need for heavy cables gage.
But ... cables are kinda cheap compared to other Bus Conversion repairs. Consider just imagining the system is 12VDC and run cables to suit? Very low voltage drop.
Can you bump/push start the Coach? :)
Respectfully ...
See the op, first thing I did was go through all the cables and connections.
When the trouble does pop up (extremely intermittent, when it does happen it is always a cold start in the morning, never happens on a hot start) it will only click when using the button, and every click moves the engine over just a bit. If I jump the solenoid at the starter it will crank every time albeit very slow for the first revolution. This is what is making me suspect the batteries, that and thier age. I suspect by the way it acts that the voltage is dropping enough that the relay or the triple function device is dropping out, and when the starter disengages the voltage raises enough to re-engage the rrlay or triple function, thus re-engaging the starter and repeat.
I will have a definitive answer on the batteries in the morning.
Napa has 1400cca 8D with 30 mo warranty for 225. Best price I can find where I'm at.
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Any starter that doesn't weigh more than I used to...is a good thing. I have a brand new 40. Nice, shiny and heavy. I was going to get the 39, but I couldn't resist the sale for the 40 at $150.00, and I'll get to rebuild the old one...if I ever get around to finishing it.
BTW...just a question, but doesn't the regulator effect that newer circuit as well? Or is it built in? I know nothing of newer engines.
That is a good warranty 3 years, I can buy the 8-D for a 185 bucks ea but they come with a 1 year warranty,I would go for the $225.00 with the 3 years myself
Quote from: daddysgirl on May 30, 2018, 01:28:34 PM
Any starter that doesn't weigh more than I used to...is a good thing. I have a brand new 40. Nice, shiny and heavy. I was going to get the 39, but I couldn't resist the sale for the 40 at $150.00, and I'll get to rebuild the old one...if I ever get around to finishing it.
BTW...just a question, but doesn't the regulator effect that newer circuit as well? Or is it built in? I know nothing of newer engines.
Regulator does nothing for starting, only controls charging voltage while running.
And before anyone asks, yes it is charging as expected. I also have a maintainer that runs 24/7.
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Quote from: luvrbus on May 30, 2018, 01:30:24 PM
That is a good warranty 3 years, I can buy the 8-D for a 185 bucks ea but they come with a 1 year warranty,I would go for the $225.00 with the 3 years myself
6 mo free replacement with 30 mo prorated. I'm in Mcalester OK, not a lot of options here.
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Check with the John Deere dealer there
Quote from: luvrbus on May 30, 2018, 01:38:46 PM
Check with the John Deere dealer there
They don't carry them. Neither does the equipment shop or the truck shop. Seems just about everything uses 31's now. Been there done that, won't do it again.
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Is there a Battery and Bulbs Plus there I haven't been there since 2000 when I built the Ford Dealership
Quote from: luvrbus on May 30, 2018, 01:54:17 PM
Is there a Battery and Bulbs Plus there I haven't been there since 2000 when I built the Ford Dealership
Nope. That was the first place I looked for.
I couldn't stand it anymore so I had to go test them batteries lol. (Never was good at waiting). One tested good at 1410cca, the other failed miserably at 735. (They are rated 1400cca) Not gonna get any better setting overnight so a new set of batteries it is. Might as well just set my wallet on fire and be done with it. Oh the joys of bus ownership.
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my cat is a bitch to start . the first revolution always sounds like it will never start ( sloooow ) then it moves faster and its running . it has never not started yet but it does this every time when the engine is cold . when its warm it starts fine . this is with 4 x 31 cat batteries that are 26 months old . I do have a 400 amp boost switch so I can use the house batteries
( 660 amps ) to help . hope I never need to use it but it is there if I need it
https://photos.app.goo.gl/eoEyiWEDbBYSPzEz2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/tK7h6kxNrrK4USmA2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/KfVyaqP8xbiYIAzz2
dave
I was able to order online and get a 10% discount thru napa so it brings the price down to 203 ea. I will pick them up at the local napa tomorrow. Good thing I have cores, they are 72 ea core charge now. Wow.
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Yep you want a core when buying batteries in OK for sure
Sledhead, your description tells me you have some sort of an issue. Batteries, poor connection, starter going bad or combination of two or more. I think you should or have someone do some diagnostics with a meter, heat gun and battery hydrometer if it is not sealed type. I'd check for one or more low cells first.
I think someone just mentioned it in another recent thread but if the starter batteries are low and it causes the engine to slowly crank, can't that burn out a starter even if it's brand new?
The starter draws "power" from the batteries to do it's work. The work is fairly constant, except for the in-rush of getting started, and since power is volts times amps, if the volts go down the amps go up as the motor tries to draw the power it needs. Wire is sized to be able to carry amps, since amps are what generates heat in the wire. As volts go down and amps go up, it's easy to exceed the ampacity of the wire, brushes and connectors inside the starter. Hence the possibility of damaging a starter if you try to run it with a low battery charge. The good news is that as a battery ages and gets old, it loses it ability to deliver current, so an old worn out battery that doesn't maintain a great charge and is going to fail a load test loses some of it's ability to deliver enough current to damage the starter.
Brian
Low voltage is a fast death for the older Delco starters like the 42 the 39Mt is a lot more forgiving being a reduction type and not a direct drive from the past
Checked them again this morning. One battery tests good at 1525cca and resting voltage of 12.85. The other made me laugh. 215cca with resting voltage of 10.5. I'm going with "dead cell". They are now in the back of the truck and will be replaced shortly. I hate to see the one good battery thrown in the core pile, but no way I'm not replacing both of them.
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Quote from: Branderson on May 31, 2018, 07:39:47 AM
I think someone just mentioned it in another recent thread but if the starter batteries are low and it causes the engine to slowly crank, can't that burn out a starter even if it's brand new?
YUP, worst thing you can do to a starter.
New batteries in place and the old girl is happy once again. Now on to the next problem. Headlights stay on all the time unless I shut off the main disconnect. Bus has daytime running lights so thats going to male it a little more fun to diagnose. I'm suspecting a faulty switch or relay sticking. Me thinks the bad battery/low voltage situation is the likely cuase of this problem.
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Tractor supply 8 D for $155 found that out to late paid over $200 at NAPA
Quote from: edvanland on May 31, 2018, 02:47:41 PM
Tractor supply 8 D for $155 found that out to late paid over $200 at NAPA
Must have been on sale ED the 4-D's here at TSC are $160.00
Quote from: edvanland on May 31, 2018, 02:47:41 PM
Tractor supply 8 D for $155 found that out to late paid over $200 at NAPA
I wonder what the warranty is and if they are the 1100 or 1400cca?
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Quote from: thomasinnv on May 31, 2018, 04:17:35 PM
I wonder what the warranty is and if they are the 1100 or 1400cca?
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I have bought DEKA AGM 1400 CCA that came off the shelf testing 1600cca. I think those #'s are advertising...
or minimums from the legal department.
used topay 160$ for NAPA 8d's retail, jobber was less....
I think the good old days are gone :(
I was very surprised that a 4 year old 8d tested out at over 1500cca.
Yes the good ole days are gone. No more 150 dollar 8d batteries, no more $1 a gallon diesel, no more $3.99 a gallon oil.
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Quote from: eagle19952 on June 01, 2018, 05:13:42 AM
I have bought DEKA AGM 1400 CCA that came off the shelf testing 1600cca. I think those #'s are advertising...
or minimums from the legal department.
used topay 160$ for NAPA 8d's retail jobber was less....
I think the good old days are gone :(
Just wondering how you are testing the CCA?
Quote from: Jim Eh. on June 01, 2018, 08:52:34 AM
Just wondering how you are testing the CCA?
i didn't, the dealer did while I watched.
off the shelf.
with an analyzer the size of a small shopping wagon.
A DEKA distributor.
A carbon pile tester works the best for testing CCA
A few 1500 watt electric heaters connected together will work for the larger ones.
I was gonna say batts too. My 102 has this exact behavior as the one of the batts was dying. Glad you're all set Derrick
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Quote from: sledhead on May 30, 2018, 03:45:19 PM
my cat is a bitch to start . the first revolution always sounds like it will never start ( sloooow ) then it moves faster and its running . it has never not started yet but it does this every time when the engine is cold . when its warm it starts fine . this is with 4 x 31 cat batteries that are 26 months old . I do have a 400 amp boost switch so I can use the house batteries
( 660 amps ) to help . hope I never need to use it but it is there if I need it
https://photos.app.goo.gl/eoEyiWEDbBYSPzEz2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/tK7h6kxNrrK4USmA2
https://photos.app.goo.gl/KfVyaqP8xbiYIAzz2
dave
update !
I removed and cleaned all battery connections and the connections at the starter . re taped the + on all the batteries with red electrical tape
now it spins over way fast ever time . wow ! only took 2 hours and should have done it a long time ago
dave
2,Napa 7236 1149 at 32 degrees and 950 at 0 degrees. I replace them at 5.5 years 117.00 no problems with them.