There are a couple of places around our house where it is necessary to start out in the middle of a steep incline. One is an intersection about two miles from home, and the other is the road in front of our house. Due to the layout of our driveway and the no-shoulder situation, the only approach into our driveway is uphill. Approaching uphill puts me on the opposite side of the road where there is enough turning space to get in the drive. If I approach from the downhill approach I'm up against the edge of the road and can't make the turn. Our house sits literally at the edge of the road with only a wood fence separating it from the road. There are many reasons that modifying the driveway entrance is not possible at this time, so I've got to get the hang of turning in from the uphill lane.
Usually I'm lucky enough to be able to time the turn into our driveway so that I don't need to come to a complete stop and can just roll through. But, when I need to stop for traffic it is difficult to get moving again. Same thing if I have to stop at the intersection down the road and wait for traffic. That one is even steeper. Seems like either I need to let the clutch slip to get moving or let the engine lug. Neither of these seem like a great solution.
Any secrets to starting out in first on a steep incline with a 4-speed and wet clutch? I don't want to burn out the clutch, but I also don't think it's great for the engine to lug its way through the start.
Bus has only 42K miles. Clutch is properly adjusted and works fine.
Any suggestions?
If the engine doesn't stall, all is fine.
You are not "lugging" the engine under these low power conditions.
You are dead pedal on the throttle at clutch take-up?
Hold the coach with light brake, take up weight of coach with clutch, transition from brakes holding to clutch holding to move off. No gritted teeth, no mashing of pedals, a finesse move.
And why not swing it out on the downhill side? The whole road is there to use... no collision, no offence, if that's what it takes, go on over there, proudly...
Happy coaching.
Buswarrior
Switching to a V730 Allison will solve all starting problems.
Not to sound smart but this is exactly why GM owners switch to automatics. The oil style clutch in your coach will tolerate more slippage than the older dry type, but they won't take continued abuse just like older ones. I would check with Luke to see if replacement parts are available and the likelyhood down the line. The 41 and 49 series appeared to have a little lower first gear than the 4104's, although it may be the additional torque of the 8v-71. I never checked the manuals to compare. If clutch parts are scarce, you may want think of going back to automatic from a donor coach or your previous one if purchaser is parting it out.
One of the main reasons I moved to the 4905 was the automatic.
Another possibility would be to change the rear ratio to the 4:27 from your 4:11. Little better starting out power with a little loss in top speed. Moving to 11:00 series tires alone or combined with axle ratio another option. If parts are going to be scarce, I can save my 4905 clutch parts when I dismantle it. Price would be very reasonable.
use the emergency brake to hold it till you start getting power to the drivers
My 4905 would start out fine on dead throttle. If you are lugging it too low at creep speed, it'll let you know by stalling.
Quote from: buswarrior on May 19, 2018, 08:30:20 AM
And why not swing it out on the downhill side? The whole road is there to use... no collision, no offence, if that's what it takes, go on over there, proudly...
About 50 yards uphill is the crest of the hill which rises steeply on the other side. No way someone coming over the hill would see me making that maneuver. At least when I'm stopped on the uphill side I can see oncoming traffic a bit and make a dash for it when it's clear.
Quote from: edvanland on May 19, 2018, 08:53:40 AM
use the emergency brake to hold it till you start getting power to the drivers
I don't have a handbrake. The e-brake requires me to apply brakes before it lets me release.
Quote from: TomC on May 19, 2018, 08:32:36 AM
Switching to a V730 Allison will solve all starting problems.
Believe me, I'd love to do this. The guy that bought my old bus has an extra V730 already rebuilt. Problem is that I haven't got the cash to do this and don't see that happening this year.
In the end, seems like I just need to perfect my take-off skills. Practice, practice, practice I guess.
I don't have this exact problem, but have had trouble getting into campsites with my 4905.
I don't think mine idles less than 5 mph in first, which is way too fast to maneuver in and out of campsites.
My technique is to "bump"(let clutch fully out and immediately back in) in first or reverse to move and maneuver, then drift and/or brake. Repeat as necessary.
Maybe RJ can chime in, but I think there is a grade % already known where you are not going to start at all on a hill. Then downhill is the only option. It would be nice to know this ahead of time.
Steve
If it was my bus, I would install a steering column brake lever like trucks have for trailer brakes, and run an airi line to the rear brakes. That will hold the bus on the hill until you get your rpms up and clutch starting to engage.
Hi Richard, I think you need one of those 3' convex mirrors for you dead spot while turning in, lvmci...
The designing engineers could have engineered into the final design a much lower starting gear. They did not. Who knows why. The 4106 MAY have had room for a designated 5 speed tranny. A little bit late today for correction.
My long gone old 1974 Crown Supercoach had the famous, (infamous?) close ratio Fuller RTO910 10 Speed Roadranger. First gear was still 6.59 to one. Start-ability in first gear was way over 20%. You just slowly let out the clutch.
Not possible with the 4 speed 4106. What to do? Like already said, try to look and plan ahead when making very slow steep climbs. The idle torque of the 8V71N will only work so well. That Coach was not designed for such hard duty.
Answer: drive the bus more. you will get the hang of it. No need to reduce the character of the coach by going automatic. It's a cool old bus, it should have a manual trans. Just as GM intended! I have driven two Scenicruisers with autos. Boring.
GM intended? They finally went to automatics in those last years just like the other makes.
School bus based vehicles had more and lower gears for starting out on steep grades out in the country and in and around inner cities and towns with many stops. The GM models were intra city vehicles and drivetrain was designed around those conditions. Very durable with lower complexity.
The deal is ,these things were geared for high way use !! The first group that I was ever involved with that owned a bus had a 1948 3751 .Some of the churches we went to had steep drive ways that were made for cars .Fastest way for us to tell if we had sang at a certain church before was to step out of the the bus and see if the smell of a burning clutch was stell hanging around from our previous trip.lol
I can only guess that an automatic is boring if you are all pumped up to shift, but it is the chitz in stop and go traffic. I am always impressed with how the Allisons are geared to keep the 2-stroke Detroit in the right rpm range. No lugging by stick-shift drivers who are used to 4-strokes that only need low rpms.
The overhead shot does not show the grades of the road or your driveway to the point that we can show sympathy. I suspect you simply have to balance your engine speed with the clutch action to get it going smoothly without racing the engine or super-slipping the clutch. It is the unusually steep roads that present the severe challenge, and they are not common. The worst I ever encountered was the steep entrance road to the Crazy Horse Monument in South Dakota. If you ever go there and traffic stops in front of you, be prepared to unhook your towed, and back down for another run at it. Your clutch can take some amount of slippage, but you just can not overdo it.
if some of the concern and cause of increased difficulty getting the coach up the driveway is due to traffic on the road, have someone stand on the road waving a flag to ensure you have safe passage ;a pain for the road folks but it is short and infrequent delay. You could even do it yourself using an emergency light on a pole fastened to a road sign you put in the road. Anything to just hold the road traffic for a minute.
go buy a surplus railroad crossing assembly with arm and flashing lights. install in appropriate location. paint some tracks and cross ties in front of it.
I have an 64 mc5, not sure how comparable the rear end ratios are?
My bus was 1st delivered to greyhound in San Francisco. How'd they deal with those grades?
Yes, as GM intended. Meaning: if it aint broke, don't fix it. I am coming at this from a different perspective. I'm a purist restoration bus guy, not a motor home guy. So I think removing a perfectly good manual trans is reducing the original charm of these wonderful old coaches. Driving a manual Scenic in traffic, or open road is my idea of total fun. Beats working any day! I just wish I had more time off to do it.
Manuals can be satisfying when the shifts go well and the crowd in the bus gives you applause for great shifts, but, if you are driving long distances and encounter traffic delays that require a lot of stop and go, the left leg will be regretting thinking it is fun. Of course, if you are younger and you haven't worn out your clutch leg yet.... ;D
My clutch actually isn't that bad, and fortunately neither is my left leg. My worry is how long my back teeth will last in the jaw-clenching moments I still occasionally have, like missing a shift when on the on-ramp to a busy freeway and struggling to get back into gear before someone rear-ends us. Mine is much worse when the transmission isn't fully warmed up, so that's not much of an issue getting into the driveway since that comes at the end of a drive.
Our 4104 was that way. Shift it a lot faster when cold and slower when up to temp. Yours should have a counter shaft brake, so don't fully depress clutch pedal except to put it into gear. I wonder if that brake even is functional anymore. You can check it by removing round cover on trans case and remove and inspect discs. They are only 4 to 5inches in diameter. Items #46,47, and 51 in illustration in your manual.
Quote from: chessie4905 on May 21, 2018, 06:20:46 AM
Our 4104 was that way. Shift it a lot faster when cold and slower when up to temp. Yours should have a counter shaft brake, so don't fully depress clutch pedal except to put it into gear. I wonder if that brake even is functional anymore. You can check it by removing round cover on trans case and remove and inspect discs. They are only 4 to 5inches in diameter. Items #46,47, and 51 in illustration in your manual.
There is no brake on the clutch in the 4108a to my knowledge. I know for certain that we don't have one. That's a large part of the problem.
It is not with the clutch assembly. It it mounted on transmission countershaft. cover for it is on end of trans toward front of coach
Quote from: chessie4905 on May 21, 2018, 11:35:49 AM
It is not with the clutch assembly. It it mounted on transmission countershaft. cover for it is on end of trans toward front of coach
Do you know if the 4108 had such a setup? My understanding is that it didn't and that's why it was so hated by drivers in commercial service. Sometimes the only way to get it into first is to shut off the engine and then shift.
I'd love to find out there is supposed to be a brake assembly, even if it no longer functions. At least then it would once I had it repaired.
they do make 2 piece clutch brakes is the shaft slotted to facilitate one ?
Look in your shop manual where it shows the countershaft in the transmission breakdown. At the end of the countershaft, it shows some round discs. Go to the driveshaft end of transmission and remove round cover. You may lose a little bit of oil, but the shaft is high in case, so not much. Not difficult and nothing will get out of place in removing it. Maybe a ten minute job.
So John, you are saying this can be easily fixed?
Are the parts available?
I get sick of having to shut the engine off to get into 1st sometimes.
Steve
Richard -
Buswarrior gave excellent advice regarding starting on an incline, back on page one of this thread.
To elaborate a little more on the technique, bring the clutch up slowly to the take-up point with a light brake application to hold the coach.
Once you reach the take-up point, floor the brake pedal, then move quickly to the throttle, applying same as you let the clutch out further. If you do it right, the coach will move off smartly with no roll-back.
Practice this until you get the hang of it in an industrial area's parking lot on the weekend, where there's no one around to thwart your efforts.
It seems, from your comments, that the biggest issue is simply getting more practice with the 4-spd. Don't give up, it gets better the more proficient you become.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
:) is reverse a lower gear ? :)
Donald -
Not on this transmission, it's almost identical to 1st.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Quote from: RJ on May 21, 2018, 07:57:56 PM
Donald -
Not on this transmission, it's almost identical to 1st.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
well, that sucks ;D
As far as those discs, consult Luke. Otherwise they could be obtained from a cannabilized manual trans. I don't know wether 4106 used them. Someone here could consult shop manual.
Actually, I did speak to Luke about this subject this morning coincidentally. He said that yes, there should be such a thing on the transmission. He also said that whether or not it helps put the thing in first from neutral at a stop is still a crap shoot. Apparently he's had experienced some buses which were near impossible to put in first that still had the system check out as functional, and others with exactly the same setup that went into gear easily.
Either way, the presence of a clutch/shaft brake won't make any difference to the issue at hand: getting moving from a standstill heading up a steep incline. Everyone seems to agree that the fault is mine and that more practice will help. I'm okay with that answer. We're heading 'up north' to Black River Falls WI for a long weekend, and then in July will be heading to Gillette WY for the FMCA rally. Those trips combined with an as-yet-unscheduled trip to the east coast should give me plenty of chance to practice.
One question...with the knowledge that I've got some type of clutch/shaft brake does that mean that during normal shifts (up and down) I should not push the pedal all the way to the floor? My thought is that it should only be pressed enough to disengage and maybe a bit more - is this correct?
Re-read reply #22.
Have you tried the downhill approach to your driveway? It seems that it might be a possibility if you hugged the centerline and got into first gear and slowly arced into the driveway at full crank. With flashers on, and maybe warning cones placed at the top of the hill (or a flag person), it might be a lot safer and easier on the clutch.
Distance from center line of the road to the fence alongside our house is just over 13 feet. The 4108 has a turning radius of about 46 feet. I can make it from the uphill side since I'm on the other side of the road and because the driveway is angled to make the approach from that side possible.
Our house was built originally in the 1800s as a granery for the dairy barn on our property, which is why it's literally on the side of the road. The road, by the way, was originally a dirt road that served the farm. Later it became a county highway which they snuck in between the existing buildings. The garage across our driveway entrance was built as a shed, and the only vehicle that had reason to be between the shed and the granery was supposed to be a horse and wagon. Guess they never envisioned some nut like me would want to drive a bus through there...
The driveway does go all the way around the back of the barn and out towards the top of the hill, but it's narrow, has too tight of a turn, is uphill, gravel, and has a ditch on each side big enough to swallow a bus wheel. We had a friend in the landscaping business give a quote on fixing it so that we can get the bus around to the uphill end of the driveway, but the quote came in at about $22K due to the amount of earth needed to be moved. For that money we could buy and install a V730. Either way, the budget just isn't there right now. The other problem we have to be careful about is that our entire property is considered a 'pre-existing non-conforming' property, and if we spend more than a set percentage of the value doing improvements we would be required to bring the entire property up to code. That literally isn't possible due to the location of the buildings on the property. Sometimes I feel like we are living in an episode of Green Acres.
We live in the Kettle Moraine area in SE Wisconsin, and while the hills are not really that high they come up suddenly. The whole area is actually beautiful and if I didn't need to get the bus in and out all would be great.
I'll keep practicing my technique and will use this as motivation to perfect the needed skills.
You can do like many others do and park it in a storage lot.
Quote from: windtrader on May 22, 2018, 08:49:39 PM
You can do like many others do and park it in a storage lot.
That would be giving up. Not like me. I don't think I'd want to continue working on a project like this if it wasn't onsite, so I'm going to keep at it till I get the technique down.
From my conversation with Luke, I'm basically doing it right and just need more practice to be able to start off more confidently on the uphill.