BCM Community

Hi guys, newbie here, well sort of. Haven't done a bus conversion before but had a couple S&S's and did a lot of work to them. Practically completely rebuilt an old Coachman 32' from the ground up. (What a waste of time, effort and money that ultimately turned out to be!)

Anyway, my oldest son and I are looking at buses. I've found a couple of MCI 102's in the 10-12K range that look to be in pretty good shape and he's wanting to pull the trigger but we haven't looked at them yet or at any others for that matter, so if any of you know of a particularly good deal on an especially nice MCI or Prevost I'd be grateful for a link. We have to stay within that price bracket though or less, at least for now. He may be able to add to it in time. I'm going to help him do the conversion.

The second thing I'm looking for is an opportunity for us to look at some completed conversions. I don't know if there's a meet or gathering of some sort we could go to within the next few weeks but that would be ideal if there is. Even a private tour or three would be wonderful. Is there anybody within a day's commute of Cincinnati that would be willing to help us out here?

Thanks a bunch, I've read a lot of your posts here and taken a lot of the advice.
Jim

Welcome to the madness and good luck with your future project. I can't help you with what you're looking for, but there will be others here shortly I'm sure that can.  ;D
Will

Some of the old conversion clubs are still going, the old fashioned ways, without an Internet presence.

CCO - Converted Coach Owners is one within your range

GLCC - Great Lakes Converted Coach is another, an FMCA chapter.

Lots of cross over between 'em, I belong, when I remember to be somewhere with my dues... delinquent that I am.

Let me check the new newletter for opportunities within a days drive...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

The economics of getting a shell and working from scratch versus getting an already converted coach has been discussed here many times. I would recommend not rushing in to this too quickly, if you are not familiar with coaches it will be very easy for you to get burned. Getting a coach for under $10,000 or so is only the beginning of dumping a lot of money to get it converted. I maintain that it is much cheaper to get someone else's coach with a history of the work done. The main office of the FMCA is in Cincinnati, and they have hook-up spaces there for members to use. That might be a good spot to look at some conversions, although many of them have high-end RV's. Look at the listings for conversion rally's, there will be some within a reasonable distance sooner or later, and, of course, there is always Bus Conversions Magazine. Check eBay or Craigslist for listings, there are always a few for sale. Just don't buy the first coach you walk into, and do not be afraid to offer less than what someone is asking.

Thanks, that is all good advice and I will follow up each item as I can. I was a member of FMCA at one time but had no idea their main office was in Cinti. Got the address?

The reason we are looking at doing the conversion, well there are several reasons really. But the first is because although he does earn large periodic lump sums and can lay down cash for the bus, Dave can't really acquire the financing to buy a 40-50K completed conversion. He's aware that double the cost of the bus is pretty much a bare minimum to make it usable, but likes the idea of customizing it to meet his own needs and tastes. And I have the skills, tools and facilities to handle whatever we need to do. (Could even put the whole thing indoors if I absolutely had to but would rather not.)

Isn't it true that a coach just removed from service usually will have up to date maintenance, brakes and tires usable for a fair distance and a lower chance of material flaws in the driveline and other critical systems? The ones we are looking at are around '94-'98 or newer. Most have less that 1/2M on the engine and trans, 50% or better on the tires, working AC, 60 series DD, Alison B500, 740 or 741 automatic. Very watchful for rust or delamination. Trying to avoid the complex engine management. What else should I be watching for?

Jim

The FMCA mailing address is 8291 Clough Pike, Cincinnati, OH 45244. the campground is at 3590 Round Bottom Rd., Cincinnati, Ohio 45244.

Don't limit yourself to think you have to spend $40-50,000 to get a good conversion, there are conversions for sale out there that are quite decent for much less. Doing it yourself is fun (at times) and creative, but it takes a long time, and you might end up with a coach that is laid out very much like other people's coaches. It costs little to check out coaches for sale, the more you look, the more you will know. As far as coaches just getting out of service and being in shape goes, maybe, but they also might be due for serious maintenance expenses they do not want to pony up for. Avoiding complex engine management (and scary electronic expenses) means that folk with modest budgets should avoid computerized engines and stick with mechanical engines. Since 2-cycle mechanics are getting scarcer, even that does not avoid all problems. It is best to have lots of cash and/or mechanical abilities, and not have a boat to maintain as well.  ;)

There's a joint CCO/GLCC rally in Fowlerville MI at the fairgrounds June 1,2 &3 you are welcome to come and talk buses. I think there were about 10 buses there last year.
There is also the bi annual Flxible rally at Mohican adventures campground in Loudonville, OH July 11-15. Not sure of numbers but more than 30 last time. I think the bus open house will be Sat afternoon.
Most owners are more than willing to "show off" their buses most anytime.

Both of those sound like events we may be able to attend. Dave will be back Monday so we'll run by FMCA maybe Tuesday.

I narrowed the search primarily to the Prevost XL and the MCI 102-C3 as having 4 cycle engines without the complex computer management, good automatic transmission, good headroom (we are both over 6') and less likely to have delamination and rust issues than some other choices might. And within the budget of course. The Prevost seems to command a premium. The MCI cockpit may be more to his liking. The hours, tires and such I can inspect. It shouldn't be too difficult to get a look at the brakes. Ease of cold start will tell something about compression. Fluid appearances may tell something about past maintenance. Engine compartment general appearance also can be an indication. An oil analysis would be an excellent idea, I'll have to ask my brother who owns a Pete what that costs and how fast it is returned. I understand the bays are a little taller in the Prevost.

It may not help much but I will ask the seller to disclose any flaws, defects or issues that may have a material influence on the buying decision. That's straight out of the uniform commercial code and is an absolute requirement of the law. May not mean much as a practical matter but is raises a claim to reimbursement of expenses if violated, and I intend to make it clear that I expect compliance. OTOH, we just got back from a trip to Long Island to look at a S&S that was enormously misrepresented. You have to be willing to walk away. Dave managed that trip, he is learning. I feel a seller who moves larger quantities is more likely to provide full disclosure than a private owner just because word will get around.

I do get your point about completed conversions. But I just don't think Dave could pull together the financing. He'd have to put up every single thing he has as collateral and then even with a lien on the bus it'd be questionable. Sure, if we run across one we can try it, but an outright purchase with cash in hand is a more sure start. As long as it is roadworthy, he can use it as a mobile camping shelter as most of the work progresses. I see no need to disable the rig during the process, and the money he saves on accommodations can go towards the conversion components and supplies.

He'd like to strip and insulate it right off, I suggested we may want to see what is there first. But that phase, with installation of new floor and wall coverings shouldn't take more than a few weeks. Then he can do his layout on the floor and walls with masking tape. That will determine the next step, although I'd give priority to tanks and plumbing. Then cabinetry and power. I have the tools to make quick work of most of that. By that time hopefully we will have had the chance to look at a few nice coaches and see what supplies folks are using. To my mind, buying as you go brings a lot of upgrade options along with it. I'm not suggesting granite countertops and marble floors, but if that's what he wants there's no reason he couldn't have it, and I've worked in the building construction trade as well so there is no part of building the rig that I see as a problem provided we start with a good foundation. And it doesn't have to be absolutely perfect, as perfection is the mortal enemy of good enough. He plans to have this rig a long time, it might as well be as close to what he wants as can be reasonably done, and easily maintained.

Of course if someone has a nice rig for sale at a good price and also has a lender in their pocket who will take a lien on the rig and give a good interest rate, of course we'd consider it. But how likely is that?

Thanks, Jim

Maybe it's confirmation bias at play but I think now is an ok time to be considering building fresh.

I'll speak for myself but we had a unique use case, we wanted an entertainer / RV hybrid . We have 4 kids and didn't want to be converting dinettes and couches into beds every night.  I'm also a Solar / tech need and wanted to build mine forward thinking vs what was common 20-30 years ago.

And I got a steal of a shell for $3k, of course this week I'm putting 1/2 that into new rubber up front .

We were also in a similar situation , not wanting to take out a loan and trying to cash flow it.   


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Jim, I don't want to curb your enthusiasm, but your estimates of speed of conversion are off a bit. I find it reasonable to make an estimate of time for a project, and then double or triple that time. Ideas in the head flow much easier than in the reality of doing it. The rules of the UCC won't help you much because a conversion is a private deal, not a commercial one, and there are plenty of coach dealers that other fellow bus nuts have been cheated by. Your best source for a coach is from a private individual that is a member of this community that has intimate knowledge of their coach, both the good and bad. My first Eagle was bought from a local Charter Bus outfit that had an in-house Detroit Diesel mechanic who overhauled the engine personally. Everything they told me about the coach was true, and it got me all over the East and West without any major problems for twenty years. Be patient, keep looking carefully, and don't be fooled by fluid appearances (if they change it just before you see it, the record of problems is gone).  ;)

I also think that the time schedule might be a tad overly optimistic. You really have to assume that with the shell will come an unknown number of mechanical issues. Each one will take days or more to work out, plus whatever time is needed to secure parts, etc. If you've got the facility to work safely under the bus yourself then you're ahead of the game somewhat. Same goes if you are handy with a welding outfit.

Luxury Coach is located in Marion OH. They have a number of converted coaches on their website, although I'm sure some of them are offsite. You might give a call and see what they have on their lot that you can take a look at. One of the guys there used to work with Custom Coach and has a really good head for conversions.

That all makes sense and I expect you guys are right about the timeline since I usually underestimate, but if we can avoid rust repair it should speed things along considerably. What do you guys think of BusesOnline.com? They list a few 102-D3's in the 10-12K range, a couple in Colorado which should be less likely to have rust issues I'd think. I've also looked at the H3-45's, generally 15K and above. Why would they be asking those low of prices? Some sort of hidden problems, or are there really bargains to be found on those buses? So far out of everything I've looked at these seem to be the best suited aside from the length. And here's another question. If the weight with the conversion is less than a fully laden bus do you really need the tag axle? If not has anybody tried removing it? Not really interested in being the pioneer, just curious. If it scrubs in turns could you use the suspension to lift it in the turns?

I looked at Luxury Coaches' website and I expect we can arrange to go up there, maybe next week sometime. At the very least maybe it'll give us some ideas. And who knows, they might have something Dave likes, and if they could work out the financing he would probably consider it. I just suspect that his work status is not going to make them happy. Which means using his existing bankroll to get the best bus we can get and working forwards from there. He intends to be a full-timer so this will be his house on wheels, which most of the time he will probably park on a lot he owns but at least a few months a year will be down south at various locations. He's in Event Management and traveling is part of the job.  

Jim

Second the timeline, I've been stuck at 50-60% for 6 months, of course it was winter , bit still.


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Here's where I found my current bus:

http://www.bargainbusnews.com/motorhomebusconversions.php (http://www.bargainbusnews.com/motorhomebusconversions.php)

Tom is an old bus guy and seemed to be a straight shooter on our bus. I've only worked with him on this one deal, but Luke spoke of him highly. At least take a look and see what he has on his lot. It seemed to me that at least some of his buses go to Luke when needed for repairs.

I know he's a state or two away from you, but aren't states smaller out there???

Thanks, I pulled up his website and will call after Dave gets back tomorrow (and has had time to sleep) or maybe send an email.

The whole purchase process seems much like any quest to buy a used car. Decide what to look for, learn the pitfalls. compare values, look for a deal. And apparently, avoid rust like the plague. Walk away from delamination. Don't buy worn out stuff. Stay away from black mold and water damage. Look for indications of wreckage. If you can't see those issues yourself hire someone who can or buy from a known reputable source which is the same thing but with perhaps a higher premium. Been in this sort of rodeo before I believe, but it's a valuable learning experience for Dave.

Anything else I should be looking for on a 102-DL3 or DL? That bus currently makes the most sense to me in terms of availablity, selection, features, and cost. Followed maybe by the H3 based just on cost.

Jim

Im near Mt Orab east of Cincinnati off 32. Youre welcome to check out mine.

I researched RV vs Conversion / MCI vs GMC vs Provost / Shell vs Converted for a couple of years.  I had to realize that I was not going to find my dream coach at least not one that I could afford. Finally  I wanted to pay cash.  With this in mind I also figured if I bought one already converted, and mechanically sound then I could do what ever needs to be done to update/ make it my dream bus, while saving money by living in it.  By it already being converted it serves its purpose, and every couple of weeks I make a trip to HD to make an upgrade.

I looked on Craigslist nationwide, Ebay, bus bargain news, and every internet search I could think of.   I went and looked at a few before narrowing my search.  I payed a little more than what I wanted but I knew I would have to pay more for what I was wanting so I just SAVED.   

My bus may be a bit dated by appearance but with 200 gal fresh water, onboard generator, 3 A/C's, new engine, and 60% tires I can go where ever I want and not have to worry about much.  I couldn't have done the complete conversion for what I paid or even double of that.   

Good luck with your search.

Thanks for your perspective. If we find a seller who can arrange financing for all but about $10K I think that's a great way to go and I'd happily get on board that wagon. Just don't believe it is going to happen. And we have to get this moving. Need some sort of action by the end of the summer at least. So the bus purchase seems the shortest line to achieve measurable results at this point. Of course that could change any time, but there seem to be plenty of buses out there, just a matter of picking the best option and making the deal. It's not like I'm looking for a perfect bus for five grand or something, based on the advertised prices and stated conditions I think my search preferences are reasonable. Not that I'm any kind of authority but unless the sellers at our price point are all lying there should be some pretty good deals.

Bronson, I'd like to take you up on that offer. Let me get in touch once I've talked to Dave and we've got some planning done, should be tomorrow evening or Tuesday sometime when we talk so a day or two after that should be possible. Any chance mid-afternoon would work?

Jim

Our first coach was a 1964 GM 4106. It was a pretty nice runner and had a very workable conversion which was done in 1990. We paid $14K for it. Obviously we put quite a bit more into it during the time we had the coach, but it was a great starting point. By buying an already converted coach we had a usable and nearly fully functional motor home.

If you have your heart set on doing one from scratch then that's what you'll do. But, if the budget is as tight as you say you'll be MUCH better off buying one already converted. There are many coaches out there whose owners have already done a great deal of the mechanical work for you, got part way (or all the way) through a conversion and then ran out of steam. There are also many coaches out there with conversions that only need a slight bit of cosmetic work to drag them into the modern world.

If you look at the thread on our current coach you'll see that we left nearly all the original conversion in place, but we were still able to bring a 1974 conversion to 2018 without too much effort. Granted, we paid more than your budget allows, but I've seen a number of conversions for sale that would easily produce the same results.

A couple of weeks more looking might save you months (or years) of time until you can get the thing on the road and begin enjoying.

Jim, i sent you a private message.

Thanks Gary, I'll call you as soon as I talk to Dave. He's catching up on sleep right now.

Richard, I have absolutely no problem with doing as you say. It's Dave's decision of course so we'll talk about it. In the end I suspect it'll come down to what we can find, and what he can afford to purchase.

Certainly we'd be willing to go a reasonable distance to look at any good prospects.

Jim

Dave and I got out yesterday and visited Gary and looked his bus over pretty carefully. It's a 96A3 and is pretty nice. Dave could probably afford something like that if he could get financing. Gary also gave us some leads which we'll be looking up over the next week or so. On the way back we stopped at FMCA and talked to them, they gave us a couple complimentary magazines. There were a number of rigs there but it was the middle of the day and nobody was out so we didn't go knocking on doors. They were all towards the higher end anyway, apparently some built on a bus chassis but I really couldn't tell.

I contacted Sawyers, they had a 96A3 for about 10K but it went on contract. Next closest is a D4500 for 30K. It has 731K miles though, isn't that a little high for the engine and transmission? It's a 2002.

Not sure what we'll do next, Dave will be out until the 1st of the week.

Jim

Mines a mci 9, 1984. My first bus was a 96a3

Hi Jim,

I new to all this too, just about 18 months now. If dollars, budget, value, and time are considerations then get your son to cool down the enthusiasm a few degrees.

Unless you have very specific, very minimal, motorhome features in mind, then I assure you that buying an already conversion is going to save you money, time, and offer far greater value. As to the financing aspect, no commercial finance company is going to lend using a 20 year plus commercial coach as collateral. You can get funds via a line of credit but it is secured by other assets, not the bus.

As to a commercial bus coming out of service, the reality is every fleet manager is going to squeeze the most miles out of the coach before dumping it. And all maintenance is deferred and all needed major repairs are deferred. Why on earth would a new $20k motor be installed then the coach be retired?

Not trying to be harsh or critical, just being short and to the point. Save up about 20-25k and get a nice running already converted coach. Will be an older 2 stroke, pre-1990 or so but if in good condition, it'll run fine.

I appreciate all the comments. For the most part I agree. But as always there are additional factors that are pushing the timeline and if we don't have something lined up by the end of summer suffice it to say that is going to push up the domestic discord factor around here. So not a terrible rush but he can't sit on his hands waiting for something to appear, we've got to go out and find it.

Anyone dealt with Carscoms.com? I'm seeing some affordable rigs on there. Also found a couple of interesting buses on ebay and A Goff limited bus co.

Been in communication with Sawyers but they don't have much inventory in our price range. There's no practical way we can go over 15 without financing so if the above comments are true that's our upper limit, making the number of converted bus choices very few and far between.

Also ran searchtempest, still looking at that but the prices do not seem to reflect the typical craigslist spread.

Jim

There was a recent thread on here dicussing coaches fro sale in California that HAD to be sold due to govt. regs. They looked to be recently pulled out of service and were going for cheap(I think)

Get onto the bus conversions for sale FB group. Also PM me as I know personally of a coach that might work for you

There are a number of of sites listing completed used conversions for sale, including the bus sites like this one. I could make a list of two dozen in your price range. Could not tell you anything about the condition of them without an in person look, but they're out there.

Search for 'bus conversion for sale' and you'll find them too.

I will add my 50 cents to this as I feel the pain daily, I don't regret buying a blank slate bus, but sometimes the knowing how much further ahead I would be aggravates me. Ultimately I am having a lot of fun working on the bus, but most of the time I could be just as happy remolding a vintage coach for a lot less cash. I don't track exactly how much I spend, but I have a rough estimate. I spent 14k on my shell, inverters and power (rough in) cost me in parts alone ~$4500, A/C $3000, insulation, $3000, windows $5000, used generator $1500. I'm sure there is another 5K somewhere in miscellaneous. As I am actually getting to the point of being able to use the bus for vacations, I have started on the mechanicals, next month is tires $3000. And that is not even got plumbing yet. So - for 40K, I'm sure I could find something that would be useable tomorrow. My advise would be to forget the adventure of "converting" and save it for making memories traveling and using the bus by spending twice what you want to, beg, borrow, steal, you/ your son will not regret it if you actually finish a conversion before fire selling a half finished project.

PS; I have spent 3 years getting to this point, now imagine spending thousands of hours in addition to the cash. I feel like sometimes I'm married to the bus project. So - now when you move ahead and start out with a blank canvas, you will know ahead that the $60K-80K in cash does not include your TIME which no matter how much money you have, you can never recover.

Example: https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/1974-mci-8-bus-conversion-completed-2014/ (https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/1974-mci-8-bus-conversion-completed-2014/)
SD

I bought my 1977 AMGeneral 10240B for $4,000 with the seats already removed. With stripping down to the bones, spray foaming, installing all plumbing and electrical, building all cabinets myself. Then having everything in the engine compartment rebuilt and even turbocharging the 8V-71, installing Jake brakes, replacing all air bags, converting to hydraulic power steering, etc, etc, since 1993, I've spent just north of $100k on it. Still a lot cheaper then a newer motorhome. But-just an idea what it takes from scratch-and that was over 6 years.
My truck, I've been working on it for 10 years. Still have close to a year to get it done. Good Luck, TomC

I stumbled across this today... pretty nice, not sure if its rusty though.
https://mankato.craigslist.org/cto/d/2001-mci-bus-d4000/6586962404.html (https://mankato.craigslist.org/cto/d/2001-mci-bus-d4000/6586962404.html)

SD

Hey Jim,

Can you two make a trip up to Cicero, Indiana sometime next week Monday or Tuesday? Or even Sunday? My wife and I have converted two coaches we are in our early thirties with two kids. Our newest coach is a 102 c3. Our coaches both have raised roofs (we raised the first one ourselves 9") and full conversions as we live in our coach fulltime. If you want to see ours with raised roof, etc come by and take a look. I did most of my work in 13 absolutely insane weeks. 18 hour days, non stop. I can tell you converting that fast can stress you out majorly.  But feel free.
Scott(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180530/e510c06ee7750f6b43043141d3ba01e9.jpg)


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Yeah that's certainly close enough to run out, let me see what Dave's schedule looks like. That's a real nice looking rig.

I appreciate every lead you guys are giving me and I'm looking at all of them. Several really look pretty good. If it was me doing it I might snag the MCI F3500 down in Texas but I'm not sure it'd be the right rig for Dave. He probably is really going to be better off with something he can begin using right away. But we'll see. Sooner or later we'll get this sorted out. He will be back tomorrow, usually hibernates for a day before resurfacing. Then chances are he'll have another gig this weekend but in between I hope we can go over everything up to date and make some picks to look into.

Jim

Hi Jim!
Welcome to the wonderful world of bus building.
Everyone here has already given you great advise, so my two cents are just that.

IMHO, You might want to consider widening your field of possibilities. Older coaches can have issues, but newer coaches can have them as well. Each manufacturer has bus specific places to look for trouble. There are older coaches out there that (when properly converted) will be free of rust, have solid engines/transmissions and sound electrical systems.
If you want to build, you can find good deals on older models also, just need to determine your comfort level on how far down it has been stripped and insulated.
I have a soft spot for 8V71 engines...can't beat the sound of a two stroke...and because they are not electronic, they are easier to work with yourself.

But we all have our reasons, and I'm sure you two will find the perfect bus to suit. Just remember it's a lifestyle, and you'll be golden :)

Be careful on a newer model at a super price. They may be unloading an electronic model with computer issues. On ant newer ones, beside usual inspections, look for any wire probing prick marks in insulation around sensors and at the ecm. Also check for any wiring repairs/ splicing evidence. Especially so if engine check livht is on during road test. A red flag if seller says light is some minor or easily fixed issue.

Like chessie4905 stated be cautious on newer coaches, they can have multiplex electrical systems and if something goes out you will become very perplexed on trying to trouble shoot the issue. ECM can also have issues especially the early revisions and even worse trying to update them. Go with an automatic over a standard unless you really like double clutching and shifting, real pain in heavy stop go traffic. Just about the time you get moving traffic slows down and you need to start all over again shifting. Left leg gets tired after awhile. Good Luck on your find.  :D :D

As time goes by, standard transmissions are getting less and less desirable. Will be a real hard sell if you move to another coach in a few years.

Quote from: chessie4905 on June 01, 2018, 06:24:45 PM
As time goes by, standard transmissions are getting less and less desirable. Will be a real hard sell if you move to another coach in a few years.

Already there, with the glut of used conversions on the market, a manual tranny is a real negative in terms of desirability and prices.

Chessie, Windtrader. when I was looking at buses Auto vs manual was a not something I even thought about. But I learned on manual tran car many moons ago and bought my son as soon as he said he wanted to learn to drive. Manual Trans is a must to learn to drive, even though the auto is easier.

I have owned cars, trucks, dump trucks,4 wheelers and now a bus.  Cars were preferred as an auto, but as for anything that I may need POWER then a manual has been my go to.

To be honest when its time to get another bus I will end up giving my current one away to someone rather than trying to sell it regardless how much I spend on it.  Money comes and goes, the fulfillment I get for a good deed is here to stay. 

Not that I have any desire to sell our bus, nor that I have any misconception that when I do sell that it will be a quick sale, I am counting on the fact that there will always be nuts like us that just enjoy old vehicles and are willing to deal with a manual tranny if that is what it takes to get the right vehicle.

Automatics have just gotten so darned good...

Anyway, a serious question. Say a 2002 MCI is said to start and drive but the dashboard doesn't work. Is this an indication of bad electronics (limp mode?) bad grounds, other possible problems, and how expensive are the parts to fix it? Is it safe to drive for a 1500 mile trip?

Secondly has anyone dealt with Supermax Motors/ Goff Limosine and Bus in Ruckersville, Va? Are they reputable? I noticed that they appear to have multiple listings of the same buses at several different price points ranging from under $8K to about 14K. Quite a spread for what looks like the exact same bus and has the exact same description right down to the mileage. What's up with that?

Jim

I've seen 'dealers' like that all over the place. Some don't even have a physical location. Proceed with caution.

Buses with problematic electrical/computer systems? Proceed with caution.

I just saw a 1994 seated 102C3 advertised online in NJ for $8900. http://www.bargainbusnews.com/Buses/5418-1994MCI102C3/#imgiframediv (http://www.bargainbusnews.com/Buses/5418-1994MCI102C3/#imgiframediv)
Might be older than you want and has a two-stroke, but would not have computer issues.

So that Cat is a 2 stroke then, I wondered about that. Good to have the answer. I've been seeing several DL3's and even a 4500 and a 3500 in that price range and think it is probably worth a little extra effort to get the 60 series. Saw that C3 and still have a tab open on it. Dave was in for a day and back out again, be back again late tomorrow. We were able to go over several possibilities but not everything I'd found. He wants to maybe run out to VA first of the week, but I need some questions answered first and then we may go to TX instead.

BTW Scott, looks like this week will be extra busy and probably the following week too. Stuff that's mostly beyond my control, but I won't forget about you.

The bus with the bad dash is the 3500 and has a lot of positives and an attractive price. I can't remember who gave me the link but it's a partial conversion and a good looking rig. But if it costs more to fix the electrical problems than the purchase price it isn't worth buying, or even making the trip to look at it. Still the 35 ft is a very attractive size. There was some speculation about flood damage. The seller vehemently says not, but who knows really? Should get some answers in a couple days.

Jim

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on June 02, 2018, 07:31:31 AM
So that Cat is a 2 stroke then, I wondered about that. Good to have the answer.

Jim

I didn't notice that it had a Cat. If that's the case, then it's probably 4-stroke. I just assumed it was still using the Detroit Diesel 2-stroke that many earlier buses had. I should have looked more closely, but I brought that link just to show an example.

Buses with problematic electrical/computer systems? Proceed with caution.

EXTREME caution.... :(

Jim,
If the budget is constrained and your desire is to get the most value from those precious dollars then in today's market you'll likely be looking for a DD 8v71 powered coach. The Series 60 is found in mid 90's and newer so the base coach costs more so for the same dollars will have fewer upgrades, if any.

An older coach can be found if just as sound if not better mechanical condition and will be more provisioned as a converted motorhome. You will get the most bang for the buck and more immediate use of an already converted older coach.

My personal preference would be to purchase via the private market. You will find better deals, no different than shopping for used cars. I assure you no bus broker/lot is going to offer you any kind of warranty anyway. Plus you're going to want a coach with history and typically lots have very little of that.

You are added to those FB groups so look there.

Been looking Don. Still looking. I'm seeing quite a few old converted GM's in that price range and several MC9s and such. But a '65 GM is 53 years old and parts might be a little hard to find. 30 years old is still a 1988. By 1994 they were making 102 DL3s and that extra half a foot is mighty nice in the hallway, along with the 4 stroke 60 series and another mpg or so. I'm a newbie to buses but it seems to me that's the one to shoot for. As far as mechanical condition, anyone would have to admit it's almost a total crapshoot whichever way you go. You better be able to assess what you are buying. How many are out there that were converted right from the factory and are now in the $13K price range? Not many at all as far as I can see and if they are it's because the owner wants something newer, or they are damaged in some way or the parts aren't available anymore, etc. Granted there are some nice old coaches out there and in some ways easier to work on but start adding up the things that are better about the newer ones and I'm just not sure why we should go that way. Lose money on the mileage, maybe have to duck to walk through, turn sideways to get to the bedroom, and there are deals out there on the DL's. Some are in the same price range as the MC9.

Here's how I see it presently. The choice is either a seated DL, a 96 incher with some interior of some sort, which probably needs redone, or an old bus that might be impossible to fix if it breaks. Or just maybe if we're real persistent and lucky a 102 wide conversion with damage of some sort, exact type to be determined. Out of those choices the last one seems like a more risky choice but potentially with the best payoff. The DL seems a pretty safe bet but a lot of work to convert, the 96 more certain still but more expensive to operate, and the old bus more of a real gamble. Out of those choices I'm personally leaning towards the damaged 102 or the seated DL.

Now, the best pick so far in a 102 has that bad dash and maybe other problems. Not a deal killer but certainly a giant red flag. Uncertainty at it's ugliest. It could go either way. Chances are there are major electrical problems. So what does a controller from a bus junkyard run? $1500? (I have no real idea.) It might be an acceptable cost.

Jim

We had a 1964 GM PD4106 before, and now a 1974 GMC P8M4108A. I won't say that we can go down the street to a parts store, but to date we have not had a project or repair that could not be completed properly due to parts being unavailable.

Jim,

We may be talking apples and oranges. let's say you have 15k t o spend. For that money you can find a converted coach in pretty decent shape. For that money you can get an unconverted mid 90's Series 60 coach like an MCI 102xDL/3. This is apples to oranges.

A careful buy of an already converted coach with few mechanical issues can start delivering day one; that is, it can get on the road, take you somewhere, park and offer working home features both on a pole or off grid.

The unconverted coach faces many months, often years, and a huge pile of checks to get to the same place as the other option. Some questions to ask folks on these boards is how many have gone that way and completed their conversion and now enjoying the fruit of their labor? How many, for any reason, have stalled projects and an incomplete bus conversion? Watch the ads and look for coaches not completed and not ready to roll? How many would say they have spent far more money and time doing the full conversions themselves?

If you can evaluate these facets to your satisfaction then you are ready to proceed. good luck.

Quote from: windtrader on June 02, 2018, 06:55:12 PM
Jim,

We may be talking apples and oranges. let's say you have 15k t o spend. For that money you can find a converted coach in pretty decent shape. For that money you can get an unconverted mid 90's Series 60 coach like an MCI 102xDL/3. This is apples to oranges.

A careful buy of an already converted coach with few mechanical issues can start delivering day one; that is, it can get on the road, take you somewhere, park and offer working home features both on a pole or off grid.

The unconverted coach faces many months, often years, and a huge pile of checks to get to the same place as the other option. Some questions to ask folks on these boards is how many have gone that way and completed their conversion and now enjoying the fruit of their labor? How many, for any reason, have stalled projects and an incomplete bus conversion? Watch the ads and look for coaches not completed and not ready to roll? How many would say they have spent far more money and time doing the full conversions themselves?

If you can evaluate these facets to your satisfaction then you are ready to proceed. good luck.

I second that, emphatically. You will get the best value by buying an already converted coach from an individual that knows the coach inside out. I would not buy any coach from a dealer because they seek to make a profit that squeezes your meager funds. I also recommend that you be open to all brands of coaches because there are good ones to be had that are not MCI's. How old the coach is does not tell you it's condition. There are coaches from the 1940's and 50's out there that are superb mechanically, so keep an open mind. Many of the people on this board have connections to buses & trucks from having done work with them throughout their lives. Getting into the conversion world takes time and money, particularly if you have little experience with them. Buying a coach from a dealer that is not converted is a surefire way to open yourself to expenses that might be tough to handle. Getting into something that has electrical problems and computerized controls can be a financial nightmare. Saving a mile or two per gallon (tops) does not justify spending thousands on repairs. Driving slower will get you the same mileage as the newer engines.  ;)

I always liked driving the DL in line and charter work. It was the last coach that was a pure extension of my finger tips. Nothing built since will go exactly where I will it to go...

BUT, anyone new to this game, who doesn't yet know what their camping style will be, and don't know if they have the vehicle control to CALMLY slalom around from inch to inch on both sides at the same time...

A DL and other 45 footers, requires careful thought and an escape plan to simply enter a grocery store parking lot. One poorly parked auto in one of those mission critical parking spots on a corner, and you are trapped, in, or out.

Then there's the potential to really cramp your camping, cuz it won't fit into the campground, you won't be able to fit it, or the facility won't let you try.

The floppy tag is a maintenance item. Beware.

There is something to be said for the "starter coach" idea, both from a maintenance upkeep and gaining bus camping experience standpoint.

Fuel economy? that is below the last thing to think about. Condition of the coach is everything. The ongoing annual preventive maintenance that you SHOULD be doing, costs more than the fuel most busnuts burn. You do the math. 5000 miles at 5-6-7-8 mpg. Completely insignificant spread in costs compared to the rest of the responsible bus expences.

Nobody that's been around the block thinks about fuel economy in choosing a coach.
However, they will use it as "justification" for their wants...

Fibbers, we all be?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Yep, all good points. So it really all comes down to what we can find and for how much money. Which takes another sort of investment. I've been putting in the time, and I've run across a very few of what look like they could be good deals for the boy. From what I'm seeing you have to go deep to find them. But, the calls need to be made and there's no telling the results. May be gone. Guess I'll be on the phone today or tomorrow. In my experience truly good deals tend to not last long. But OTOH as Gramps was fond of saying, there's no deal so good that another one just as good won't come along tomorrow. The older I get the more I believe that.

I get what you are saying about conversions taking time and money. I've done automotive engine conversions for a good 40 years now. That's small scale stuff but by no means all I've been doing. I get the picture. And I agree it's way better to be able to just jump in and go. Hey, if the pool of money was unlimited it'd be easy right? But in this case it's a bargain basement deal or go another way. Hence the time investment, and since Dave doesn't seem to have the time it falls to me. I suppose I can be excused if that pushes me in the direction of resentful sometimes but there's a bigger picture that I have to keep in mind.

So lately I've been seeing seated DLs in California for super cheap. I'm going to have to call and see what that's all about. I thought $7K was a real low price (VA). Then I saw 6, then 5, then 4 and all the way down to 1 or 2K. Supposedly for late 90's coaches in very good shape. Really makes me wonder exactly what's going on there. I'm hoping some of you guys can shed some light on this because otherwise I'll just have to rely on a phone conversation with the seller to put it in perspective. I'm seeing all sorts of other things. Campaign buses bought for the election and sold afterwards, a bus bought just for a bachelor's party and then sold (Really?!? Who DOES that?). But the best deals seem to be "Widow's buses". Well, not always widows but you get what I mean. Seems like those tend to be older but nicer and sometimes priced right. I have a couple of those to check on. But IF I can buy a DL with less than 1/2M on the engine and tranny, good tires and brakes for less than $7K that leaves a good bit in the war chest for improvements. Enough to make the bus habitable by winter? Guess that depends on your definition of habitable. By my definition I could make that goal within a week but for me a bedroll, a toilet and a portable shower would do the trick. Improvements could come over time. I'm not the one that will be living in it though. That complicates things.

Just saw the post by buswarrior, I greatly appreciate your input and do not doubt the extra length can and will cause problems. It's a learning experience, the old IH school bus took some getting used to too. Just getting it into my driveway so we can get it back to the shop may make it necessary to back and fill. A 32ft S&S was no problem at all even with a trailer but that extra 13 ft? Hard to say, the axles are further back too. For sure a regular semi won't make the turn. If I had my druthers we'd be looking at F3500's but I've only ever seen one of them so far that was even in the price range. (I'm guessing that is the shortest one MCI made? I'd be interested in knowing for sure.)

Jim

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on June 03, 2018, 07:36:03 AM
...Enough to make the bus habitable by winter? Guess that depends on your definition of habitable. By my definition I could make that goal within a week but for me a bedroll, a toilet and a portable shower would do the trick. ...
Jim

Don't forget that if you're buying a seated coach you'll also need to convert the title from 'bus' to 'motorhome'. You may be able to get by with a sleeping bag and a portable toilet/shower, but the powers that be may want more to be done before issuing the MH title. Each state has its own requirements and hoops to jump through before changing the title. No MH title, and then you've got more expensive insurance and registration.

Thanks for that Richard, I'll have Dave check. KY laws in that area look to be more lenient though so fingers crossed. I've little doubt we can meet the minimums quickly enough.

Jim

Jim,

Do not get hurried into a buy decision. There are so many coaches on the market, you do your homework, there will be one that its your needs. True, some exceptional deals do come around but they are far and few. One that comes to mind was a pair of Buffalo coaches that went for $1000-$1500 each. Boom, they were gone in a couple days. Turned up the next week on CL in LA I think. The vast majority sit around for plenty of time to make an informed decision. Plus you don't have enough knowledge yet to even know what a good deal is. I would strongly adopt the motto, "if it seems to good to be true, it likely is" for the time being.

Specifically, any decent condition mid-90's DL with a Series 60/BT500 is north of $10k, anything less is crap unless one of the exceptional deals as described above, the ones that come along rarely and gone in days if for real. Anything stated otherwise is a scam.

for reference, 32 ft to 45 ft is here to the moon on a bus ruler. Even 40 to 45 is not trivial at all. so you really need to know how and where you plan to use the bus before deciding that more is better.

Apparently to change the title in KY all external business related identifiers (signage, etc) have to be removed and there has to be evidence of conversion to RV use. Exactly what that evidence consists of is the question we will be asking.

Well the converted and subsequently stripped out 2002 F3500 with the 60 series and bad dashboard for $8000 is gone. Might have been a bargain, might have been an electronics nightmare but considering I just learned a bit more about that bus including that it is a rebadged Dina, I'm not broken up about it.

I drove a 35 ft tag axle S$S today (Dolphin) and had no surprises. Wasn't much of a rig and sure didn't live up to its photos, had all the usual flaws and then some. Do you think Bus owners are any better about maintenance than S&S owners? I wonder. I don't think the tranny dipstick had ever been pulled out to check it and the owner was supposed to have been a mechanic. Oh well. Not seeing a whole lot of evidence that a privately owned vehicle is any better than a commercial one other than the mileage but of course I could be wrong.

Been looking at specs on turning radius, can't seem to find a solid reference on the DL. But indications are that it compares pretty favorably. Around 45 ft seems to be a really common number. One unofficial reference gave it as less than that but I don't know how reliable that is, Buswarrior you feel like commenting on that? I'm starting to think a DL might make the turn-in here just fine.

Jim

Hi Jim, in Nevada the inspection to change from commercial to motorhome needed a sink, refrigerator, bed and stove in an empty bus, on mine the sink had a bucket drain, the refrigerator was strapped to the wall, still had the MCI toilet, a cot and the oven was on the floor. The idea was no passinger seats, and the difficulty of putting in the refrigerator and oven indicated it was not going to go back to commercial use. Another indicator is removing windows with covering, although this came later on mine, lvmci...

Here's another option...

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=802&acctid=8028 (https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=802&acctid=8028)

Not suggesting this particular bus, but there are apparently lots of options out there similar to this one. Throwing it out there to help broaden the pool of available stock.

Still looking, and I appreciate any links that have been sent my way. A couple times now it's been suggested to me that Nashville might be a good place to look, but so far no specifics on just where or how to go about that. It's within reasonable driving distance though and south of the rust belt so it makes sense to me.

Jim

Jim -

Can Dave drive a stick shift?  If so, there are some good old GM workhorses (4104 & 4106) out there that are tough sells simply because they have a manual transmission.  The stick shift can also do double duty as a theft deterrent, too!  :o

Please share with us the websites you've been perusing as you search for a bus for Dave.  We may know of some you've missed.

You've stated several times in the four pages of posts on this search that Dave's looking at a Sept/Oct time frame to be in a coach.  Unless the two of you want to be masochists and work 18 hour days for 10-12 weeks starting from scratch, this is a complete pipe dream.  And, since you're saying that $15k is the maximum cash available, you'll have even less than that to work with once you buy the vehicle - and that reserve is going to disappear very quickly as the cost of house systems nickles and dimes the budget to nothing.

Which is why you've heard over and over again that it makes no sense to start from scratch on such a short time frame, and that it's far better to purchase one already converted that Dave can live in NOW, then customize to his content as cash becomes available.  Or leave it alone and just live in it while he builds his cash reserves to purchase a DL and do it on a much more realistic pace.  You've heard this countless times, and yet, for some reason, you seem to keep balking at the idea.  Why?

Since $15K seems to be your max cash budget at the present time, then search for converted coaches in the $10 - $20K range.  Just because somebody's asking $20K, doesn't mean it's going to sell for that amount.  Find one for $10K and now you've got $5K to do some fix-up before heading out.

FWIW & HTH. . .

;)

Yep, it all helps.
Facebook
Ebay
Craigslist
Busesonline.com
Govdeals.com
Usedbusesforsale.net
Carscoms.com
-and one or two others that I don't remember at the moment.

I'm not as hard headed as everyone seems to think. I know what you are saying and we've been over this. We do have a target. That is, a converted or partially converted MCI 102-DL3 within 500-700 miles with 100-200K miles left on the running gear before any big expenses for $15K or less. It doesn't have to be pristine but does need to be relatively rust free. It can have some issues that an average or fairly good mechanic with suitable tools and facilities could fix. It needs to be roadworthy. I think that isn't an easy goal but it is achievable. We may have to go outside our preferred distance. We may have to make other concessions.

Now if that isn't possible, we're going for the running gear rather than the cabinetry. Cabinetry we can do. Engine, transmission, axle changes, rust and major collision repair are more than we really want to deal with. And size does matter. That extra 6" makes a big difference inside. Pretty much the difference between a slider and no slider.

So that's our target. There are buses out there in that bracket. The trick is finding one reasonably close with a partially usable interior that doesn't immediately need tires, batteries, brakes, A/C and air bags or have rust or other big issues.

Jim

LOL ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Last guy that posted 5 pages of bus search got persecuted, lambasted and run off....

Quote from: eagle19952 on June 08, 2018, 08:16:54 AMLOL ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Last guy that posted 5 pages of bus search got persecuted, lambasted and run off....

       But how many people have we seen that ran in with "new ideas", argued with info from the old hands, "did it their way" ... then sold the shell for 10 cents on the dollar 7 months later?   Sometimes, people who are walking into a minefield with their eyes closed need to hear some strong stuff to wake them up.

Absolutely.
Hey I got something for you. Couple of build threads. Not Bus conversions but enough to demonstrate what is behind this plan. First one, 130 pages of build info (just scan and look at the pretty pictures) covering the creation of a charitable organization and subsequent build and campaigning of a one-of-a-kind 455 Buick powered MGB-GT in the fine tradition of Gran Turismo. The goal? To encourage creativity in the younger generations.

http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?2,166 (http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?2,166)

And the second, my personal car, and daily driver:

http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?2,274 (http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?2,274)

Now if you look those over and still feel we aren't going to follow through on this, then I have to wonder how any bus conversions ever were built. But that's the thing about opinions.

Jim

Now if you look those over and still feel we aren't going to follow through on this, then I have to wonder how any bus conversions ever were built. But that's the thing about opinions.

Jim


[/quote]

My post wasn't directed at you :)
I went to bat for "that" guy too.
:)

Jim - I've also done a number of restorations and vintage car rebuilds, but working on our first bus (a GM 4106) last year was a shocker in many ways. There are many more systems, and each system is many times larger and more complex than imagined. Just getting under a bus safely can take hours unless one has access to some very expensive equipment. Not trying to dissuade or criticize - just trying to help you keep your expectations realistic.

You've received plenty of opinions from a group of the most experienced active busnuts in the world, representing hundreds years of practical hands on experiences. True!

At this point, you know your critical criteria, beliefs, opinions, risks, timelines, upfront direct, indirect, and hidden costs, constraints, checklists, related issues like titling, registration, etc. In other words, you're eyes wide open. Start calling in earnest and looking at some. There are surely some within a day's drive and I think I know enough of you now that you're not going to fork over bucks until you are comfortable meaning you need to get out there and go look and drive some.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

Yeah, you guys have been a tremendous help. That combined with my own past experience gives me some confidence in what I'm doing. Lots of things are complex, complicated and have special requirements. Wouldn't expect a bus to be any easier. But I think I know what to look out for now. Should be able to find something.

Not entirely sure I agree with the private owner vs dealer argument, but that'll all shake out in the end.

Jim

Jim, your sticktuitiveness on those car restorations is admirable. But I will say that owning a coach Bus is an entirely different ballgame. If your car has engine trouble on the road, you call a flatbed tow truck and pay him $50 to tow you back to your house. In the bus, you will pay $1500 for that same tow and wait for hours if not a day for a heavy class wrecker to come. When something on the coach breaks, you don't get out your cute little car tools fo fix it, you gotta man up and bust out your $65 wrenches and some serious muscles to get the job done.  Don't ask me how I know. Your bus is not just a motorcar. It's a mechanical marvel with an engine coupled to a house with all the house systems to build/fix/maintain too. It's super rewarding, and super exasperating all at the same time. We've fulltimed for 8 going on 9 years in two buses we both self converted (including a 9" roof raise) and I can honestly say it's been one of the most challenging aspects of my life (Bus ownership). I say go for it...with eyes very wide open. You have to remember like someone mentioned already, we have seen countless people show up on this forum with ideas, plans, excitement, energy, etc basically completely fizzle out and sell their partially converted coach for pennies. Over and over again we've seen this. If you are not going to be that person, then you'll buy a coach, convert it, post pics, and we will all welcome you into the silly world of busnuts. It's a well earned title that few can claim.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180610/13de22895568ddb68081bf4189cf12be.jpg)

And btw, we waited for two nights on the side of the hwy in the middle of the New Mexico desert for this class D to arrive. Memorable. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180610/6b884525fdd51a3c1bffa411e598483f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180610/95fc5dd361a6cfa4668412832afd7b99.jpg)



Our very first bus:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180610/f66af3207df30bc8f2497a3f8f182059.jpg)



And our two buses during the few short months we owned both:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180610/4b16b32df88b12d96f2d1c039b8a1961.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Hey, I have wrenches that size. Cars aren't all I do, the point I was making was that those were both ten year projects done simultaneously and involving far above the typical level of engineering and fabrication. Yep, buses are bigger, but not any bigger than my brother's Peterbilt. As for the house systems, I have completely rebuilt a 32' S&S from end to end including roof, floor, walls, engine, tranny, tanks, fridge, water, power, fabricated a custom hydraulic leveling system and much much more. I wan not even slightly impressed, in fact I was amazed with how cheaply built and poorly constructed they were.So an RV is no mystery to me and a bus conversion is just an RV built on a better chassis. Not really any more complicated. All systems function in the same ways, just built to last longer OTR.

What you are talking about is a nightmare scenario. Thankfully a rare occurrence and largely preventable. So what broke, what could you have done to identify the problem before the breakdown and prevent it, and how could you have been prepared to limp it home? That is the valuable lesson to be learned from that incident.

Jim

Okay Jim, we all tried to warn you about bus ownership. Scott would be the first to tell you that "nightmare" breakdowns are not rare. I hope that Series 60 you are aiming for does not have a bull gear ready to go, and the transmission is not ready to spit parts, because at $15,000 and under, you better have everything checked by a diesel mechanic that knows that particular vehicle. Buses are not the same as trucks or RV's, even though they share some components. Older buses are not the same as newer buses, and they require a knowledgeable owner, or one with deep pockets. How much experience do you have driving a bus (school buses and RV's don't count)?

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on June 10, 2018, 09:15:54 AM
...So an RV is no mystery to me and a bus conversion is just an RV built on a better chassis. Not really any more complicated. ...

Many here would disagree with this premise. Strongly.

Quote from: richard5933 on June 10, 2018, 03:07:17 PM
Many here would disagree with this premise. Strongly.

Looking at the skills shown...I'd say the fellow is able.
You know what they say about opinions :)

Quote from: eagle19952 on June 10, 2018, 03:44:14 PM
Looking at the skills shown...I'd say the fellow is able.
You know what they say about opinions :)

I'm not at all questioning his skills or experience. I'm merely pointing out that many (myself included) would consider an RV and a bus conversion two totally different animals.

 The first dark tunnel he is alluding to is "slides", in itself a nightmare.>>>Dan

If we are and as many here have already, some several times build and built a custom coach. Lets be a bit patient and hopefully enjoy whatever were all doing with the conversions.

This new coach search and build is typical in the fact other things are happening in life. So organizing some task plans are key. Like many of these things we are unfamiliar with. Just keep at it! Many know from a whole lifes work this is but one project of many to have some fun with.

Using you own locale for your base title setup is best. Imo, I mean if they use the national standard then as listed before, these items need fitted and securely. Also this can get you on the move. Particularly in a staged build as Im gathering.

Good day

Floyd

You guys are funny. ;D Are you really trying to tell me to just forget about the whole idea? Because that sure is what it sounds like from this end. How many people told YOU to just forget it? And did you listen? If you did, why are you here? I'm guessing you didn't. So do you really hate the direction you went so badly that you want to scare everyone else off? Sounds serious. Why don't you quit? Must be a reason.

Never did get the answer about what caused the breakdown. Was it the bull gear? Andy had that go out but he was able to recognize what was going on and schedule his trips so he could tear down the front of the engine and replace it at the home base. The gear didn't just fail without wearing first. Noise, metal in the oil, these things have to be paid attention to. A healthy engine has a certain rythem. If it changes there is a reason that needs your attention.

Almost sounds like jealousy. (I don't have a new bus, why should you get to have one?)

Better don the old asbestos suit after that I suppose.

Jim

 :)
I use to watch on tv a great show, in the begining the director would issue task to get done. Whats funny is following the task assignment there always was the;
Good luck Jim


Rock On!

Floyd

Good morning Jim!

Sorry, I sort of laughed at your post. Took you longer than me to figure out this is a tough crowd. Remember, I'm still a noobie of about 20 months from birth to just a year since buying one. The folks here are truly being helpful, this is not some typical social media site where people just flap their gums and say dumb $#!%. Hang in here and you will thank yourself endlessly.

Here's the deal - I'll rephrase some of my more nuanced remarks. You need to take time and you are doing so to learn enough to establish realistic expectations on what your reality is then build a prioritized checklist to start hunting for the coach that meets your needs and desires.

My recommendation to continue extracting and utilizing the tremendous knowledge here. Start that list and have the discussion here focus on that. If you choose to participate, your checklist will represent a well thought out and vetted set of realistic requirements to bring your ideal purchase into laser focus.

If I may, let me suggest of few to seed the list. Pursue as you wish. Maybe this is so obvious but I've no recollection of the topic of documentation. Personally, this item goes in the top three. Another is inspection by professional bus mechanic. Physically visit, thoroughly inspect, and drive the bus before committing your heart or mind.

One other recommendation is work doggedly to keep the non-critical items on the "nice to have list". For example, I recollect you mentioning a 102" wide coach. Unless you have something you need inside that is 101" then it is not critical. Concentrate on the critical requirements in context to your realistic budget of a very modest coach. You can wait and get more but that is an entirely different discussion (i.e. NEVER call a used bus an "investment").

Let me share a funny story. When I came here, I asked a lot of questions for a long time too. Not too long after the questions started, the peanut gallery started making reference to some other past potential bus owning nut. There were heckles about me being another "Bill", asking lots of questions then I assume either getting chased away or not buying a coach. Hummer.., maybe he is here, just did not seem likely based on the comments. Toward the end of the prepurchase period (6-7 months), there were cracks from the peanut gallery like "Just go buy one!" Well, that was reassuring in an ironic way as that indicated I had asked enough questions, learned enough, and was ready to pull out the checkbook.

Here I am a year later post purchase and the 39MT starter post represent my very first time putting a wrench on my bus to repair something. Knock on wood and a pat on the back - I did my homework, took my time, and it paid off.

Quote from: windtrader on June 11, 2018, 10:14:02 AM
Good morning Jim!

Sorry, I sort of laughed at your post. Took you longer than me to figure out this is a tough crowd. Remember, I'm still a noobie of about 20 months from birth to just a year since buying one. The folks here are truly being helpful, this is not some typical social media site where people just flap their gums and say dumb $#!%. Hang in here and you will thank yourself endlessly.

Here's the deal - I'll rephrase some of my more nuanced remarks. You need to take time and you are doing so to learn enough to establish realistic expectations on what your reality is then build a prioritized checklist to start hunting for the coach that meets your needs and desires.

My recommendation to continue extracting and utilizing the tremendous knowledge here. Start that list and have the discussion here focus on that. If you choose to participate, your checklist will represent a well thought out and vetted set of realistic requirements to bring your ideal purchase into laser focus.

If I may, let me suggest of few to seed the list. Pursue as you wish. Maybe this is so obvious but I've no recollection of the topic of documentation. Personally, this item goes in the top three. Another is inspection by professional bus mechanic. Physically visit, thoroughly inspect, and drive the bus before committing your heart or mind.

One other recommendation is work doggedly to keep the non-critical items on the "nice to have list". For example, I recollect you mentioning a 102" wide coach. Unless you have something you need inside that is 101" then it is not critical. Concentrate on the critical requirements in context to your realistic budget of a very modest coach. You can wait and get more but that is an entirely different discussion (i.e. NEVER call a used bus an "investment").

Let me share a funny story. When I came here, I asked a lot of questions for a long time too. Not too long after the questions started, the peanut gallery started making reference to some other past potential bus owning nut. There were heckles about me being another "Bill", asking lots of questions then I assume either getting chased away or not buying a coach. Hummer.., maybe he is here, just did not seem likely based on the comments. Toward the end of the prepurchase period (6-7 months), there were cracks from the peanut gallery like "Just go buy one!" Well, that was reassuring in an ironic way as that indicated I had asked enough questions, learned enough, and was ready to pull out the checkbook.

Here I am a year later post purchase and the 39MT starter post represent my very first time putting a wrench on my bus to repair something. Knock on wood and a pat on the back - I did my homework, took my time, and it paid off.

Now you're part of the peanut gallery...
Ignore me if you like :)
A whole year in ?

Sorry Jim,

I promise I didn't intend to sound jealous or discouraging...I just happen to have a couple of friends who jumped into a conversion project, lost a substantial amount of money just transporting, gutting it, and fixing mechanical gremlins only to never even convert it and are now trying to sell gutted chassis for pennies. It's kind of heart breaking to watch. I even just spent a day with a friend who has a gorgeous eagle in his pole building with brand spanking new tires, a really nice conversion, stainless steel holding tanks, brand new Alcoa rims and a blown 8v92. He can't afford to replace it so the coach is just sitting. He's so torn up about it after putting years of work and money into it only to have the motor fail. He's just done. Ask John 3:16, he also knows the pitfalls of coach ownership and stated how much of a relief he felt when he finally sold his lol. I personally would not own a coach if it weren't necessary for me to take my family with me on my business travels...it's just too much drama for me to keep a bus as a hobby.

That being said, when I'm not underneath my coach fixing it, I do enjoy living in it. I enjoy being able to take my home with me and keeping my family of four comfortable out on the road. I enjoy driving something big and stable with quite the commanding view of the road and converting my buses was actually somewhat fun. I had $60,000 into my first bus and I have almost $70,000 into my second Bus. Spending that much money is definitely fun if not a little painful. 

To answer your questions:

That tow was just one of a few I've had over the years, and trust me, there's no planning or prepping for road failures like you are suggesting. I had a relay fail in the rear junction box that killed all 12v power to my ECM. Dead in the water until I figured it out (took me 4 days with a multi meter). My first bus had a catastrophic radiator blowout. Had no idea the rads were ready to blow. Can't really haul around a spare radiator and you don't replace them just for the heck of it at $1500 a piece. My most recent sideline was a blown transmission cooler hose. Once again, can't plan or predict that will happen. That one hose was just shy of $200 so I don't go around replacing hoses on my coach just as normal maintenance. Now some people buy a coach and convert it and almost never actually drive it...in that case you're probably never going to have to deal with major issues. But we put over 15,000 miles a year on ours so we see our fair share of drama. I don't think anyone is questioning your capability...my guess is when you convert your bus, I'm really going to be jealous of your mad skills making it nice...I think the group here is just adding a very heavy (like 40,000 lbs worth) dose of reality to anyone coming to the forum asking about Bus ownership. Probably because you asked. If you're set on getting a coach, I would steer clear of asking questions about coach ownership and issues, and just simply ask about the advantages or disadvantages of different models. Are you more interested in 102" wide units? 40 feet long? Shorter? MCI or Eagle or VanHool or Setra? Having owned two two stroke coaches I would steer clear of them and stick with a four stroke which I think you mentioned you wanted a 60 series anyway. Btw, your friends semi truck is a much easier beast to mess with than a bus. Which is precisely why more and more truck repair shops are refusing service on coaches...don't ask me how I know 🙄. Eyes wide open...and enjoy the process. Converting and owning a bus is a nutty thing to do but I'm committed now so I'll keep on keeping on until I can afford to build a truck conversion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Well the situation has changed somewhat. I want to start out by saying how much I've appreciated and enjoyed all the comments both positive and negative. Anyway, yesterday Dave went out and bought an older S&S, a 31 ft Fleetwood Flair. So we'll be working on that for a bit to get it up to snuff.

That has not removed the interest in a bus conversion, but what is does is give us some breathing space and stretch out the time schedule. There is now no particular urgency. In fact, if I can find the right deal it is entirely likely that I will have a bus before Dave does. But my deal is a little different. For starters, I'll be on an even tighter budget that he was, and the integrity of the drivetrain and shell will be practically my only concern going in.

As you say Scott, decide what you want. I pretty much have. An MCI 102 D3 is the target. I've seen them for $10K. I've seen DLs for less. But I'll either have to trade or convert assets to currency. I have about $5K in gold and silver coins, an enduro worth about $2500 and a few grand in the bank. Finding the right trade is likely to be problematical.

But, all part of the fun, yes?

Jim

Congrats on the purchase. We often bash S&S but there is nothing wrong with them if they serve your needs best. There is no one here who would disagree with the fact you avoided a serious time and money pit. Your son would never be able to live in the bus until far beyond the needed timeframe.

Please stay around and keep learning and seeking knowledge from the most capable body of bus experts in the USA.

Good luck, don

Is there a time of year when the transportation companies take delivery of new buses and trade in or sell their old ones?

Jim

I havent seen that Jim, in the scheme of things its always a bid thing.

With awarded bids a process of delivery takes some people from both camps so to speak. As the winning bid company delivers, the recieving company ( in my world ) always has personnel to accept these units.

They may park them on their lot but they are human to and can only put in service one at a time, while removing its traded unit the same way, preparing it for sale.

We often only see the lot full and empty but this is the process, and believe it or not government and military are in my opinion the most effecient at this and should be actually.

This smartly follows with inspections in several levels of measure. Many companies are involved typically with their accessories installations and or decals etc.. or mine was in both situations mentioned.


Good day

Floyd

Jim - I'm curious if there was a single factor that pushed the decision? Cost, timing, complexity, etc?

Yeah, well really I suppose it was a combination of things but we've been able to look at MH's locally, while the pickings for a bus were always few and far away. It's a tough call to drive 700 miles one way just to look at a prospect that may not be anywhere near as described. So we ran across the Fleetwood locally, mechanically it was in good shape, needed some cosmetics and a little work but basically sound and all there. And like you guys said doing the conversion will unavoidably take time. Then there was the whole thing about changing it to an RV registration, nowhere near a certain thing in this state and could take an unlimited number of attempts. Plus, driving the bus home after purchase would be risky without a CDL. Plus Dave's been living with us long enough. I don't mind but pressure has been building and this was the easiest way to take the pressure off everyone. So overall I think it was the right call and Dave made the deal after we looked at it and drove it. $9K for a '98 with 60K mikes, it should last him until he's ready to move up. By then maybe I'll have a bus, and may even consider selling it to him at that point. Which basically means I'm still looking and marshaling funds but there's nothing pushing me to be in a hurry about it.

I'm thinking the 102D3 rather than the DL might be the better call. Not because it turns any sharper, I think they both have the same turning radius from what I've been able to find, but just because they are accepted at more parks.

Jim

Well Jim, it seems like you've thought thru the deal, you're correct in thinking a 45' is not able to park in as many places, even a 38' motorhome can't park in a lot of parks. The "D"s are a great bus, the most every made of any model. The "C"s are good buses too, especially if you can find one with the single rear radiator and a DD60 mechanical engine. you may even have a better chance of finding one semi converted for a cheap price, lvmci...

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on June 14, 2018, 07:27:02 AM
Is there a time of year when the transportation companies take delivery of new buses and trade in or sell their old ones?

Jim

Typically in these parts, for a first line fleet, new coaches get delivered in the Spring, ahead of the building school trip and summer tour season. The "trade-ins" are kept via various leased-back arrangements to build up the fleet size thru the busy season/nice weather, up until the end of the fall colour touring beyond Thanksgiving and then sent to the dealer.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

I see, so late fall and early winter might be better hunting seasons then? That could work.

Jim

Personally, I would not worry about any seasonal cycle to bus inventory. There are so many all year round I really doubt it influences pricing for coaches in your price range. For much newer coaches coming out of fleet service, this may apply.

Seasonal cycles and the chances of mechanical fitness can have a connection.

Buses traded or parked in the beginning and middle of high season, were done so for reasons that a busnut may not want to inherit.

Especially in the Schoolie arena, picking up the bus the day after the school year ends, right from the fleet that owned it from new, is worth every penny...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

Quote from: buswarrior on June 16, 2018, 10:39:14 AM
Especially in the Schoolie arena, picking up the bus the day after the school year ends, right from the fleet that owned it from new, is worth every penny...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

And that's one of several reasons that I chose my bus.   It was with Mid-Placer Public Schools from new, and like all (I hope) school buses in California it always received very good maintenance to keep the CHP terminal inspector happy  -  those guys are VERY fussy!   Plus it had only 274,000 miles;  any MC9 I could afford could have up to ten times that mileage, probably with sketchy maintenance for its last few years in revenue service.   Mid-Placer's transportation garage has a good reputation, so I think I got a good 'un.

John

Do all of the big transportation companies sell their old buses to resellers, or can an individual buy from them?

If an individual can buy from them, can anybody name a good company to buy from? (hopefully in the southeast)

I saw that Eagle in TX that is being sold by the widow. Heck of a deal it looks like but I still need to sell some stuff to raise the cash so I'm working on that. Got a motorcycle or two that can go, bunch of old coins. Won't be able to do any really serious prospecting until that's done. Also sorta got my heart set on a D series, but willing to look.

Jim

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on June 02, 2018, 07:31:31 AM
So that Cat is a 2 stroke then, I wondered about that. Good to have the answer.
Jim

Caterpillar has never, ever built a 2 stroke engine.

Wow. Went back a ways for that one, and missed the context, but I do appreciate the dedication. What actually happened was that Richard posted a link but didn't look at the bus and just assumed it had the DD 2 stroke. Then I looked at it and saw it had a Cat engine and figured he knew. Not very complicated.

Jim