BCM Community

I am looking at busses and have been absolutely convinced that for a conversion MCI was the only way to go - but there are so many good deals out there on Serta and Vanhools.

My intentions are to make it a shell and build it to live in for a couple years at a time with family.

Last one I did was an MCI MC7 and there were some challenges I would like to avoid.
Challenges
1. Ceiling to floor height changes over the length of the bus
2. Round ceiling corners
3. I tow an enclosed car hauler and the MC7 has an 8v71 - slow over the hills

I would like to get opinions on the Serta and Vanhools as there seem to be options.  My family and I have loved traveling in the MC7 aside from the couple breakdowns that turned into adventures anyways.  So we are more willing to make a bigger investment and get something more modern like maybe a 1995 or newer.

Check their parts availability down the road and prices. Back in the day International school busses almost made the bid for low cost. They made it up in the price of parts they sold to you down the road.

volume of potential survivors?

Penetration of your chosen marque across the continent?

and in 20-30 years, the volume of old men then who might have apprenticed on your coach model as young men today?

For instance, the 2-stroke crowd will be safe for as long as those still young armed forces trained mechanics are alive.

I doubt there will be a Setra following like the Flxible crowd?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

MCI and Prevost are the top two, in quality, parts available and service. I would go with a 102 D or newer


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elder Setra and Vanhool are probably as close to the bottom of the converters choice list as one can get.

The older Setras have a dropped aisle that takes a LOT of work to make a flat floor.  I suspect the new Setras are still pretty pricey.

The older Van Hools rusted very badly.  I saw one at ABC companies that had so much rust I don't know how it made it to the sale yard.  The engine door hinges were even wired together!  That Van Hool said it had a new interior.  The interior was probably the only thing worth anything as the rest was scrap.  Most of the other Van Hools had enough rust and corrosion to scare me away.,

To make the poll more precise, I would add GM, Eagle, Flxible, Crown, and Prevost, and then you might not need "other". You can drop Serta, they just make mattresses.  ;)

Yes SERTA is a mattress SETRA is a bus!
Everybody will tell you all kinds of this and that about SETRA's but when they are done telling all the bad things about them ask them how many of them have they owned and when did they get rid of their last one!
Yes they have pros and cons just like any other make!
Personally I love them as they are the sports cars of buses! Independent front suspension, steering tag axle, driver sits down low like in a pick up or van, an many other cool features! Yes the S215 and S217 did have a drop aisle as Brian says, but I don't remember how his turned out. (OH wait he never bought one, he bought a DINA which is the exact same bus I traded off for the Neoplan I have)
People will tell you "Oh you can't do this or that!" But they never tried so does that mean it can't be done?
Don't get me wrong there are things that have to be done differently to convert a different brand of buses, but that doesn't make them a bad bus to convert.

Parts can be bought straight from MCI as they now handle Setra's North American operations. And I have never had a problem getting any part for an S215 or S217, don't get me started on the DINA or the newer Setra S417's though I had plenty of problems getting those parts!

I don't care if my SETRA sells or not, if it doesn't I will either convert it, or part it out for way more than I am asking for it whole!

OH yeah Setra is designed by Kassboro who was the original designer and manufacture of the Eagle!

;D  BK  ;D

You are incorrect, it is the second sports car of busses.....4106 was the first.
BK is right though, talk to present and former owners to see if it is a good candidate.
Try to purchase a brand and model that had a large representation in the bus business. Think down the road 20 years.... How are parts going to be obtained....how many items are Setra or Vanhool specific.
GM's were quite popular because of their volume, and parts were easy to obtain and  inexpensive. Not so much anymore as they got out of the business, same with Eagles to a lesser extent. MCI's and Prevosts are quite popular now and into future as long as THEY don't go out. I don't know how many Setras and Vanhools are out there.
The new business tax laws recently passed might effect how competitive they may still be. Just thoughts on this end.

They ALL run out.

Witness the GM experience

Everything was fine, for as long as the components were still being used. 15 years ago, there were V730 rebuilts on shelves, and rotating thru wrecking yards.

Then they stopped being put in buses and/or Allison stopped making them.

The 730 almost immediately became a hot potatoe to get rid of before you were left holding the bag...

Commercial viability is key to parts availability.

Get out the crystal ball and make your best guess?

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

You need to watch the vintage of VanHools you are considering they can be a rust bucket with plenty of electrical issues,they are a nice looking bus though the taper from the bottom to the roof could deal a person misery converting one.
Parts are terribly expensive for VanHools and the Setra because of the running gear is not the standard American issue.
Check the MCI D's careful the early models can have rust problems also and buy from the west coast if possible,parts for the D will be around for a long time the last I read over 15,000 were produced and sold more than Prevost total ever manufactured    

I apparently struck a nerve with Bryce over the Setra.  I looked at every brand except GM and Bluebird when I was looking for a bus to convert.  (Yes, I even looked at a Neoplan.)  I looked at a Setra during my search and I visited a guy converting one.  If you want a flat floor they require quite a bit of fabrication, or some have incorporated the raised seating area into their design.  No, I have not owned one, but I have looked at them and can tell you why I wouldn't own one.

I wouldn't suggest to anyone they buy a Dina either unless they really want a torsion suspension instead of air bags.  The torsion suspension is about the only thing I like about my Dina.  It is getting to be nearly impossible to find parts that were not used on other vehicles.  Things like spindles and hubs have not been available for at least several years.  I needed a new wheel stud for the tag axle last year and MCI at least still has them, but something like $20 each instead of $3 to $4 each for truck wheel studs.  Around the time MCI filed for bankruptcy they sold off a lot of old parts to a company called Vintage Parts.  This included some of the Dina parts.

I bought my Dina because it was the most affordable coach bus at the time with a Series 60 and a B500 transmission.  I might have been better off spending the extra money for a different brand that is more widely supported.  I would probably get an MCI D series if I was starting out today.

LOL I know all about the 20 dollar studs from MCI,I finally found some for 15 bucks ea

My favourite bus has always been Vanhool, although I've never owned one - but I love the looks and I love how ambitious they are in design terms - glazed roofs, aerodynamic roofs, quad-axles, articulated double-deckers. They're spaceships compared to 95% of the passenger-carrying boxes on the road that call themselves buses.

My own bus is a humble Plaxton but it does have both a dropped-aisle and curved / tapering sides - neither of which will cause any problems at all during a conversion unless you are seriously lacking in fabrication skills - in which case forget buses altogether and buy yourself an off-the-shelf motorhome.

Jeremy

I built my entire conversion without being a fabricator.  I had to weld in a few pieces and got friends to do the welding as I don't know how to weld.  It was nothing nearly as complex as dealing with a dropped aisle.

Many a Senicruiser became beer cans people trying to deal with drop aisle in those  

Maybe I'm missing something but I'm not sure what the real/imagined problem is with dropped aisles. I'm simply running the floor across the top of mine, with some additional steel cross supports underneath - and using the resulting tunnel under the floor as an incredibly useful conduit for running things up and down the length of the bus (and in my case the mechanisms for the slide-outs). What's the big deal?

Jeremy

My Neoplan Cityliner had a drop aisle which allowed head room while standing and you stepped up to the seating level.  If I did as Jeremy did, my head room would have been to limited. So I lowered the floor to the lowest point of the aisle ( 7 1/2" drop). Mine is a Colorado built Neoplan so it has American running gear so no problems there. It did have rust problems. The flooring was the only thing left front air bag down.

When I lived in the SF Bay Area, I would take occasional trips in my RTS to Reno.  There are quite a few curves on I-80, and I would watch the gambling tour buses leaning out on the curves so much it would scare me to watch.  My RTS with IFS and a low center of gravity didn't lean at all and would outrun the Charter buses unless they had an 8V92TA (I had 350HP, they had 330HP in the days of 6V92's).  The RTS easily out did a 4106, so it was the new "sport car of buses" 20-30 years ago, maybe still.  I have a friend with 35' RTS and an 8V71TA @ 375Hp and 4.11 gears (I also have 4.11 gears).  20,000+ RTS buses were built and there are lots of parts available. No computer bus for me so my RTS is for life then my son gets it.

Quote from: Lee Bradley on February 17, 2018, 01:50:34 PM
My Neoplan Cityliner had a drop aisle which allowed head room while standing and you stepped up to the seating level.  If I did as Jeremy did, my head room would have been to limited. So I lowered the floor to the lowest point of the aisle ( 7 1/2" drop). Mine is a Colorado built Neoplan so it has American running gear so no problems there. It did have rust problems. The flooring was the only thing left front air bag down.

To be fair I would have had the same problem if I hadn't also raised the roof, and by co-incidence I raised the roof by exactly 7.5" - which is comparatively modest I think given that I know a lot of people that already have flat floors then raise their roofs by 10" or more.

I can see that on something like a Scenicruiser where keeping the classic look is all-important you'd be loath to raise the roof, and I also know that dropping the floor is not for the faint-hearted - I did briefly consider doing that on mine, but that IS a big fabrication job (far bigger than raising the roof), and kudos to anyone who has done it

Jeremy

I have added more buses and reset the counters to zero so if you could please go back in and choose your favorite bus type to convert. This is very interesting.

Plz vote again and you will be able to see the results as they progress.

I think Nimco dismantled about 19,000 of them in New Jersey. I observed their process a few years back. Interesting how the body was ground up and separated into different material piles.

Quote from: chessie4905 on February 17, 2018, 04:11:52 PM
I think Nimco dismantled about 19,000 of them in New Jersey. I observed their process a few years back. Interesting how the body was ground up and separated into different material piles.

If you are exaggerating about RTS buses, they still make them.  NYC is the biggest customer.  Look at this:
http://www.millenniumtransit.com (http://www.millenniumtransit.com)

I have no idea how many they dismantled. They also did new looks, and other brands of city busses. They had huge piles of fiberglass, rubber, wood, aluminum, glass etc. They ran the bodies through a huge grinder after removing drivelines. They sold takeoff parts for several years.

Quote from: Geoff on February 17, 2018, 04:30:24 PM
If you are exaggerating about RTS buses, they still make them.  NYC is the biggest customer.  Look at this:
http://www.millenniumtransit.com (http://www.millenniumtransit.com)

Geoff the plant in New Mexico has been closed for several years now,that NJT contract was cancelled for non delivery,  Millennium is gone as far I know.I purchased some items at their sale at the site in the Roswell air park.Maybe they will try again with the economy better now     

I have an MC9 . I haven't fully documented the process, but I came up with a good solution for the curved ceiling.  I used a 2x3s veritcal placed 18-24 inches from center to create a center channel in the ceiling. Keeps the head hight at Max. Then on the other side of the 2x3 becomes an air duct for the AC units. It forms a flat tiered ceiling . Then on the edge near the window you can do cabinets or plywood . I can post pics if it makes the MCI option anymore desirable.


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RTS is gone, low floor and ramp are universally preferred over a lift, and Allison stopped making V731 that went into 'em.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

Quote from: buswarrior on February 18, 2018, 05:10:37 AM
RTS is gone, low floor and ramp are universally preferred over a lift, and Allison stopped making V731 that went into 'em.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

The one I saw used a ZF Transmission

The poll has insufficient parameters. An accurate result depends on many factors such as money available for a shell coach, budget for a full conversion, planned use (i.e. touring musician vs extended pole to pole stays, work/pleasure), etc. The more heavy use the more the need for a newer coach, reliability, parts and service availability, etc.

Coach already converted or a fyi DIY conversion or a professional conversion. Different options depending on many factors.

Geoff. That is an interesting site and I've looked at it years ago. As nice as it would be to see RTS's in transit fleets, the fact that their website appears to be untouched for over 5 years is a red flag.
Same thing when EAGLE was trying to come back. "New specs coming very soon". That stayed on their spec section for a few years too until they finally went completely out of business and took their site down.

Yes, I was behind on the news.  I am voting GMC, since my RTS was built by them.  BTW, my RTS was considered a Suburban because it was set up for highways, not curb rubbing!

Disnow -

Altho I am a huge GM PD4106 fan (the "original" Sports Car of Buses - like a '61 Corvette), and tease Geoff about his RTS being the next generation (equal to an '82 Corvette), my preference nowadays is for the MCI (of which I own one.)

I'm not fond of the Eagle, Prevost, Setra and Van Drool design of having the driver sitting with his butt on the pavement and the main salon two feet above him.  May be fine for a revenue service coach, but not for an RV.

MCI is the only manufacturer currently in production that puts the driver basically on the same level as the main floor, thus allowing the navigator to sit alongside and be able to carry on a conversation.  May seem like a simple thing, but ask Mama for her thoughts.

FWIW & HTH. . .

;)

RJ,Eagle had the option of a passenger and driver on the same level for years they were called high drivers my 15 was a high driver all the Country Coach,Marathon Eagles,and about all entertainer shells were floor level from the front to the rear,the down side some don't like with any make of floor level buses it adds 1 extra step  FWIW & HTH  

Quote:MCI is the only manufacturer currently in production that puts the driver basically on the same level as the main floor

I have not been in a Prevost X3 but the XL and XLII has the driver on the same level as the rest of the floor.

Davy

Gary's X3 Prevost is floor level

Yes,Cliff, the later RTS models had Zephyr angle drive transmissions. Nick at Nimco had takeout of these and V730's there. They had better gearing than the Allisons, but opinion at that time was that they weren't as reliable and parts were expensive and could be hard to come by in a couple years along with service and repair.

The later RTS's had a right turning engine also I have a right turning 6v92 from a RTS

The advantage to the driver's seat being lower than the pax floor is that there is peace and quiet down there ;) Be it in a revenue coach or a conversion. I do prefer being up higher where the view over the traffic is better though.

JC

Quote from: lostagain on February 24, 2018, 07:52:28 AM
The advantage to the driver's seat being lower than the pax floor is that there is peace and quiet down there ;) Be it in a revenue coach or a conversion. I do prefer being up higher where the view over the traffic is better though.

JC

I see the MCI J's come both ways, most of the drivers at Arrow prefer the drop down they don't care much for the level seat or the spiral stairs the new J's are plush I would love to have one for a conversion 

I think we need fewer steps in our coaches because some of us are getting older and we even have visitors that are even older coming on board. We might even need an elevator at some point. We also need more votes for Eagle and Crown. I thought GM's were more difficult to convert, and that parts were scarce.  ;D

Just change the entrance steps to an escalator with reversing switches at both ends.

Quote from: DoubleEagle on February 24, 2018, 09:18:05 AM
We also need more votes for Eagle and Crown.

OK, I've cast my vote, guess what for?

Much though I like Crowns, I'll be the first to say they're not the easiest buses to do a full conversion on, even a pusher like mine.   So saying, they can make very good conversions if enough thought and ingenuity is applied!   Apart from a few body parts, almost everything is still available from NAPA or truck dealers  -  Crown was a small manufacturer, so they bought in almost everything.   Every piece of glass is flat, so no problems there either.   There's virtually nothing I can't still get for now, and I'm also harvesting some spare parts off Crowns like mine that are being stripped at Zachers in Harbor City CA.   Exclusivity is another bonus reason I like my Crown  -  mine will probably be the only fully-converted Super II in the whole country, i.e in the whole world.   Yeah!   It's much rarer than Bugatti Veyrons:  there's two of them in Newport Beach alone!

John