I joined the club of self-a-bus-ers a few months back, and officially entered into the era of coach ownership. My second outing in the Greyhound owned 1983 MCI MC-9 (before I even had the original seats out) won me a burst power steering hose in the front end. Yay!
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same hose as above after running a bit of fresh fluid through the lines:
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Now I'm trying to get the hose disconnected from the copper tubing that runs into the trunk, and as you can see it's rustier than a bag of tetanus. I'm afraid that if I torque any harder on the hose coupler nuts, I'll end up damaging the copper lines. Any suggestions or tips would be much appreciated.
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But even once those are off, I'm not sure the best approach to getting new hoses. Is there a super-secret place where abundant, high-quality, inexpensive replacement coach parts are enjoyed by the busing masses, or is it best to have something custom made?
Thanks for your input. And thanks for all the posts I've enjoyed as a guest up until today, the day I graduated to a full-blown member of the forum. ;)
At this point I would seriously only use the very center and the right connections with wrenches. I say that as im pretty sure that center looks to be a steel fitting and tough.
A good wire brushing and a soaking several times with a penetrant would be a start. In this job I would also prevent any overspray as a future task may be needed for expediting the dissassembly.
Good day
Floyd
Well, I must say, you have a very nice coat of rust on those steel fittings! As was mentioned, give it a few days of soaking with PB Blaster (or some other rust buster)--maybe a few times, and only use good line wrenches (crow's foot) on those (I prefer Snap-On myself). . .you really don't want to strip the wrench edges on the fittings. If you can wiggle yourself into a good spot to pull some torque (with two wrenches and only turning the swivel fitting), they may come off without too many busted knuckles.
Once you have the lines off, you can take them to any hydraulic place (sometimes even a Napa or truck parts place) and they'll make you the hoses you need.
Quote from: Sunchaser Art on February 01, 2018, 10:53:43 PM
Well, I must say, you have a very nice coat of rust on those steel fittings! As was mentioned, give it a few days of soaking with PB Blaster (or some other rust buster)--maybe a few times, and only use good line wrenches (crow's foot) on those (I prefer Snap-On myself). . .you really don't want to strip the wrench edges on the fittings. If you can wiggle yourself into a good spot to pull some torque (with two wrenches and only turning the swivel fitting), they may come off without too many busted knuckles.
Once you have the lines off, you can take them to any hydraulic place (sometimes even a Napa or truck parts place) and they'll make you the hoses you need.
Thanks brmax and Sunchaser Art. That was the other main issue: I hardly have any clearance for good travel with my wrench(es). Too many other lines and doodads under there. But I always like a good reason to buy nice tools I don't yet own though, so I'll go find something fun to add to my collection and feel better about this mess under my feet.
Most of the time you can put the two wrenches so the long ends are close (like between 12 & 2 o'clock), then pull the both with one (or two) hands just by clenching your fist. Just keep an eye on the fittings so you don't strip the wrench ends, because then they're a pain to remove. If they don't come off the first time, squirt them again with a penetrating oil. Once they budge, you're good to go.
If there is room, you can always cut off the copper tubing and either reflare it or use a new compression ring with new nut. Take the removed assembly to a Parker hose shop and have a new on made up with them adding some extra length to connect at the cut off point. Find a point where tubing isn't corroded.
On the hoses, you get them made by a hydraulic shop, they have the hose, the crimping tools, and there are no standards so every one is custom. On the connectors, I might try a little heat, maybe a small flame on a Mapp torch or O/A, but what I expect is that even if you get the nut ends to turn, the connector on the hard line will be toast and you will probably be figuring out how to splice the hard line or if you are lucky just re-terminate the end. I would cut off the hose part with a cutting wheel or hacksaw (reciprocating saw with a metal blade) so that I could get a full ring wrench or a socket on the hexes.
Quote from: chessie4905 on February 02, 2018, 03:43:35 AM
If there is room, you can always cut off the copper tubing and either reflare it or use a new compression ring with new nut. Take the removed assembly to a Parker hose shop and have a new on made up with them adding some extra length to connect at the cut off point. Find a point where tubing isn't corroded.
I second this as the most reasonable approach, but I would attempt to trace the condition of the solid line as far back as possible. Your coach has been in a lot of road salt, and there might be other marginal areas of corrosion that will let go after you have made the repair. I would not even attempt to take those fittings apart, just cut the line out. There is nothing sacred about having everything original.
I guess it is too late for Duct Tape. ;D
It's all here.
Cut the hose off to gain better access for ring wrenches, wire brush and good penetrating oil drizzled on it multiple applications over multiple days.
Strongly consider just cutting it all out and establishing a new connection on the hard piping.
Using enough torch to heat those requires fire protection to the surface above...
Remember who gets to take it all apart next time, lubricate and rust protect all assemblies for the future.
Use proper connectors for the pressures involved, this isn't a Home Depot plumbing job... Industrial hydraulic supply fittings please.
And secure all new work so that it can't rub on anything!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
These are all great suggestions and input! Thank you for the ideas. I'm kind of new to this, though I've done a number of repairs on my own light (by comparison haha) vehicles and have run into some tricky stuff, but I always seem to bristle at the tight, tight, dirty, upside-down (did I mention tight?) problems that seem to be 90% of my vehicle repairs (tell me again when I'll stop fighting these kinds of issues and learn to really love them?). My neck is sore.
Quote from: bevans6 on February 02, 2018, 04:43:13 AM
I would cut off the hose part with a cutting wheel or hacksaw (reciprocating saw with a metal blade) so that I could get a full ring wrench or a socket on the hexes.
Great simple idea, and one I hadn't considered, so thanks for the suggestion bevans6! I'll try that first so I can at least get the one side off and assess further.
Why do you have any pipe there at all? It's usually best to keep the number of joints to a minimum, so why not run hydraulic hose all the way from the PS pump to the steering box, using normal hydraulic fittings throughout. Hose is only a few dollars a foot, so for a few hundred dollars you'd have a 100% new high-pressure hose assembly; the lower-pressure return hose is less critical, but again the fewer the joints the better.
John
Since the original is buried in the main tunnel, probably not a practical idea. The rest of the lines will be like new protected in there. With the amount of rust in that area, more corrosion issues are going to show up in other body and framing areas, sorry to say. I wonder what condition the framing inside the walls is like near rear sides, and condition around spare tire compartment area.
I hope you have the coach safely blocked while working on it.
I was thinking the same thing chessie, I know what i just went through with my 9 and it didn't look near that rusted.
Jason
At this point I would seriously consider re-routing and replacing end to end these and all the rest of the fluid transmitting hoses...
PS air and diesel are fluids...
Applying open flame heat may not be a good idea. ATF or the marketing version "power steering fluid" is only a light grade of hydraulic fluid. Therefore the issue of flammability comes into play. If you try heat make sure you take the usual safety precautions:
- safety goggles
- fire extinguisher
- review of vehicle and life insurance policies
Quote from: Jim Eh. on February 03, 2018, 05:42:49 AMApplying open flame heat may not be a good idea. ATF or the marketing version "power steering fluid" is only a light grade of hydraulic fluid. Therefore the issue of flammability comes into play. If you try heat make sure you take the usual safety precautions:
- safety goggles
- fire extinguisher
- review of vehicle and life insurance policies
The good news is that the fabric hose part is already shredded and most of the fluid should have leaked out. The bad news is that the fabric part of the hose shreadded and most of the fluid has leaked out. Yes, I agree-- be very careful there.
Quick update - I was able to get the fittings loose and the hoses removed. I ended up getting them to budge with a combo of some blaster and careful application of a makeshift breaker bar setup I was able to get into the tight spot. The hoses are going in today for custom refits and the entire bay is going to get a good cleaning once the steering system is topped off and running again. Thanks for your encouragement and ideas. Once I get the floor inside the coach ripped up, I'll assess the state of the lines there and consider a full replacement of all lines as has been suggested.
My bus appears to have hose from end to end for the power steering. It would almost certainly be a multi-day project to remove the old hose and install a new one. I wonder if the factory crimped the ends on after they ran the hose?
Naw, they put the hoses on the floor and built a bus around them. Easy peasy to change ....
Spent my morning trying to get new hoses made. Turns out the fittings are the Aeroquip/reusable type fittings that can be easily removed and replaced with new hose. Only problem is the only places that were open didn't have hose that was compatible for these fittings, and the only place that was open that could build an entirely new hose was out of the elbow fitting I needed for the end that connects to the gear box. I'll have to wait until Monday to get this rebuilt and installed, but hopefully that will put an end to my power steering woes for the remaining life of the bus.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if someone told me these were the original hoses that shipped with the bus straight from the MCI factory in '83, given their astonishingly bad condition.
Quote from: Jim Eh. on February 03, 2018, 03:00:57 PM
Naw, they put the hoses on the floor and built a bus around them. Easy peasy to change ....
Easy to change on an MCI with a tunnel maybe. If you think it is easy on a Dina I'll let you do mine if/when the time comes. The hoses run through the ceiling of the luggage bays and then run under the bus in hard to access areas. I already spent hours on my back doing other stuff under there.
I got the new hoses made and have them installed at the gear box, BUT....I can't find any reference to which side is feed and which is return, nor did I keep track of the lines when I pulled the originals out. I'm guessing it makes a difference, but my repair manual doesn't seem to reference either position.
Advice?
Quote from: skytripping on February 05, 2018, 02:06:55 PM
I got the new hoses made and have them installed at the gear box, BUT....I can't find any reference to which side is feed and which is return, nor did I keep track of the lines when I pulled the originals out. I'm guessing it makes a difference, but my repair manual doesn't seem to reference either position.
Advice?
ooops.....
fill PS Res, bucket, pull fuel to none, crank.
the one that puts oil in the bucket..
no way do you want to run the pump dry....
no way do you want the engine to start...
i would use a clean bucket.
Quote from: skytripping on February 05, 2018, 02:06:55 PM
I got the new hoses made and have them installed at the gear box, BUT....I can't find any reference to which side is feed and which is return, nor did I keep track of the lines when I pulled the originals out. I'm guessing it makes a difference, but my repair manual doesn't seem to reference either position.
Advice?
Are your hoses the same diameter? I have a 5/8" high-pressure hose and a 3/4" return hose for my PS. Even my radiator fan motor also uses different sizes.
John
I finally got my ground under me. After cleaning off sections off of the gear box, I found it is a Ross power steering box.
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I briefly spoke with the fine folks at Phoenix Exchange in Texas (one of the only sites that showed up in google for the model listed on my case, and they gave me some good pointers. First, he indicated that the return port is offset from the pressure (feed) port, or located about a 1/4" higher on the case when it's in the upright position. I couldn't see any difference in the height of these two ports, so that didn't seem to offer any help.
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The second pic he sent showed the "P" (pressure) and "R" (return) indicators on top of the case.
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Though more definitive, this was also problematic, since the clearance for the front and top sides was only between an inch or two. I wasn't any further along in identifying which was which on my unit. I could feel the markings, but try as I might I couldn't get a definitive identification on either of them. I tried using mirrors, my iPhone's front camera, braille-like touch — nothing gave me a clear idea of the markings.
Then a lightbulb came on. Enter the kids' sculpting clay!
After putting a small ball of putty on top of the case and pressing down with my fingers using what little clearance I had, I was able to get an undeniable impression with a backwards "R". Then, just to be safe, I tried the second port, and sure enough I saw a backwards "P" (see pic). Bingo. As long as the schematics in my repair PDF matched my physical lines, I was in business.
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The lines are now reconnected, and the bus has been taken for a drive. Ahhhhh, 1000% better than driving this behemoth in full-manual mode. I get a whine that I honestly can't remember whether it's new or was existing before, but the fact that it works so smoothly now....I'll take it.
- Ron
Yeah, Ron. In my experience, this is a good way to get bus experience. You find something you need to do, you work out ways to do it, and as a part of it, you learn a lot of things that will be useful for you in the future. After a few, you feel good about the learning curve.
Congrats on getting this done - keep working. BH
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on February 06, 2018, 05:43:01 AM
Yeah, Ron. In my experience, this is a good way to get bus experience. You find something you need to do, you work out ways to do it, and as a part of it, you learn a lot of things that will be useful for you in the future. After a few, you feel good about the learning curve.
Congrats on getting this done - keep working. BH
Thank you Oonrahnjay. I definitely appreciate the encouragement, especially after parking what felt like a multi-ton non-power steering paper weight in my driveway. After getting the one-finger steering back, it felt like I had moved a mountain, even though I've only done 1/1000th of what is going to be needed to get this conversion completed. Hoping to keep my head down and keep racking up small and steady wins like this one.
Genius, with the clay. I have never used that before but maybe in the future thanks. I use my phone camera a lot though and a mirror on a stick. Bravo ;D
Neat trick.
I would think the whine you hear needs to be dealt with. It probably means you have air in the system.
Not too sure the procedure on a bus. If no info is forth coming ... after the bus has sat for a good length of time you could try jacking the steer axle and rotating the steering from lock to lock, first without the engine running and then with the engine running. Steadily but not too fast. From the pics it does not look like you would be able to get at a bleed screw even if it had one.
Quote from: Jim Eh. on February 06, 2018, 03:39:30 PM
Neat trick.
I would think the whine you hear needs to be dealt with. It probably means you have air in the system.
Not too sure the procedure on a bus. If no info is forth coming ... after the bus has sat for a good length of time you could try jacking the steer axle and rotating the steering from lock to lock, first without the engine running and then with the engine running. Steadily but not too fast. From the pics it does not look like you would be able to get at a bleed screw even if it had one.
Thanks Jim. Instructions for bleeding the system are found in the steering section of the service manual (PDF) http://busrvparts.com/PDF_Files_MCI_9_Maint_Manual/MC-9-Maint_Manual_Section_11.pdf (http://busrvparts.com/PDF_Files_MCI_9_Maint_Manual/MC-9-Maint_Manual_Section_11.pdf), page 11-28.
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That said, I'm not sure I understand this line from step #2: "Add fluid (102-40 to reservoir and fill until oil is to
bottom of fill spout in reservoir cover."
Does this mean I should be monitoring the oil level at the top cap in the reservoir (tank with the sight glass)? The reservoir is near impossible to reach right now (quite far from the doors), and I still currently have the bathroom tank in place, so if they're saying I should be monitoring the oil level at the top cap of the reservoir, I'm stuck. I can see the sight glass, but I can't easily get to the cap. I added oil at the spout which extends to the rear doors right above the right side of the engine.
They want it above sight glass, as oil will drop quickly at first and this extra amount of oil lessens the chance of sucking reservoir dry and introducing more air into system. Even in a car, I over fill reservoir for same reason. I start engine, put pressure on wheel and instantly shut engine off. I recheck oil level and repeat till level stabilizes at full window. Then, I turn wheel lock to lock, avoiding contacting stops and applying pressure. This can be done with wheels off ground, but not necessary. Since you have had it running, the level won't change much, just need to cycle 6 or more times. Sometimes a half hour rest helps if you get fluid foamy.
Because it's a pain in the patootie to fill my PS/hydraulic reservoir through its fill opening in the top, even when using a funnel, I devised a much simpler and easier way that results in NO fluid being dripped or lost. There was an unused 1/2" port in the bottom of the reservoir, so I used that for a new Fumoto oil-drain valve there that makes draining the entire reservoir much easier. To this valve I've attached a 3-foot length of clear plastic 1/2" tubing that has a funnel inserted into its other end and secured with a small hose clamp. The funnel has a loop molded into it for hanging it, so I made a hanger from wire that hooks onto the funnel and hangs from the bodywork nearby - this way the funnel is above the reservoir's top vent, with the transparent tube connecting it to the bottom of the reservoir via the Fumoto valve there. To fill the entire PS/hydraulic system I just start pouring fluid into the funnel, and it fills the reservoir up from the bottom. It's easy to see exactly how full the reservoir is, and after starting the engine and turning the steering from lock to lock a few times I can then top off the fluid. When it's full I just close the valve and hang the funnel and tube up next to the reservoir, ready for the next time. No drips, no mess, no guess work - in fact it's almost fun doing this!
In addition to the Fumoto valve in the bottom of the reservoir I also put one in the hydraulic/PS fluid's cooler which is now at the lowest point of the entire system. To drain the entire system I just open both valves with buckets underneath, and in a few minutes all the Dexron is out except for a small amount remaining inside the PS hoses. Easy!
John