Edit: My Primary Question here is about weight distribution
First, I ran across this page http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3398.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3398.0) But all the image resources are dead (never use image hosting services for you images. They all go out of business or get bought eventually)
I see TomC's idea of water under the bed, I like it theory for a few reasons, but we lofted our bed just a few inches to use it for storage (fits the standard big bins from walmart or whatever) or for the dog (140lb St Bernard) .. or extra sleeping room for the kids if we have more guests.. I just like the utility of the space.
I'm looking to start water install as soon as I can. Right now my electrical / generator (in old AC condenser bay) / batteries and water is all shaping up to be on the driver side. I feel like this will cause weight imbalance issues. I'm hoping to leave the passenger side bays open for lawn chairs, games (corn hole) , tables, I've even got a plans for a roll out outdoor kitchen. I suppose many of those items will balance it all out.
I was looking at tanks like this 100 Gal from Northern Tool. I think it will full up a side of a bay. I'm planning to do grey and black tanks as well unless I can be convinced to just do a combined black / grey.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200642859_200642859 (https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200642859_200642859)
I have a Fleet Farm here close as well and looking at few of theirs.
What don't I know that I don't even know?
You should consider http://ardemco.com/. (http://ardemco.com/.) They have been building holding tanks for buses and boats for several years. They can build you any size tank to fit your application to make the most use of your space. Call them today at 800-253-0115.
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on January 30, 2018, 10:57:25 AM
You should consider http://ardemco.com/. (http://ardemco.com/.) They have been building holding tanks for buses and boats for several years. They can build you any size tank to fit your application to make the most use of your space. Call them today at 800-253-0115.
best choice...they will spin weld all of the pipe bosses you want...get more than you think you'll need...my tanks (4) 62 gallon 14 years in are the least of my worries. great product.
Seems like you'll definitely be heavier on one side than the other when your tanks for full. Of course you can certainly offset depending on where the fuel tank is, etc. Seems like you could easily use the battery bank to act as counterbalance as well. If you build a nice enclosure for the batteries you'd still have the area above it for storage in that bay.
We have only two tanks - fresh water and black water. Same with our previous coach. Not really sure that there is a need for separate gray water nowadays, and I've seen a couple of new Class A motor homes out there without a gray tank. Back when the gray could easily be dumped without a proper dump site, I guess that it was nice to separate the tanks, but I'm not convinced that they are totally necessary now. Of course, I know that other will disagree.
We don't have a city water pressurized hookup either, so both our fresh and black water tanks are the same size, somewhere between 100-120 gallons (I have not done the math yet to calculate). As long as I don't fill the fresh water to the top, I'll never worry about overfilling my black water tank.
Richard : what is your bay layout like then?
How bad is it to be out of balance?
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Quote from: neoneddy on January 30, 2018, 03:11:46 PM
Richard : what is your bay layout like then?
How bad is it to be out of balance?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't think we're out of balance at all, really. The generator is on one side. It weighs in about 950 lbs. On the other side are the fresh/black water tanks. A hundred gallons of water weighs about 800 pounds. Whether in the fresh or black water tanks, it's the same amount of water and weighs the same (mostly). The tanks slightly cross over the center-line of the bus.
The only thing that I'm slightly concerned about is the 450 lbs of batteries I'm about to add to the same side as the water tanks. They will be mounted just to the side of the center-line, as close to the center as I can get them.
I'm not able to weigh all the components of the coach (upstairs & in the basement) since they're already installed. I'll have to see how it weighs in my first time on the 4-corner scales, and then I'll adjust as needed to get things evened out.
A lot depends on what is existing and staying in your bays. On ours the front two bays are battery bank times 8 AGM batteries plus inverter passenger side, driver side 9kw Kohler gen. next bay back 110 gal fresh water in middle center line of bay, 20 gal hot water heater driver side and cloths washer passenger side. Next two small bays have OTR heat/air blowers etc. Last bay has 110 gal black/gray that is low and extends across the whole bay. This config ate up some storage but I tried to balance everything out. Still have some storage but not a lot.
What size are the agms? Industry number. Are they single or double stacked?
There is also a tank manufacturer in Red Bay Alabama,but I can't remember the name of the place!!
It is fun and easy to sit down with a bunch of copier paper and a good pencil. Lots of erasers needed too. Gather up all the idea you may have or imagined and set them down into brief engineering sketches.
You will need to know several things about what you want to put into your Bus Conversions. First is the performance. Will it work for you? Any special considerations or needs? The items must work OK.
Next the size of the stuff. Dimensions. Length, width, height. To the fraction of one inch. Size distribution of all the considered layouts MUST be considered. You want all the items to fit correctly inside your Bus.
Weight also enters into it. Water is heavy. So are batteries. So are gen sets. Fuel. Tanks. Appliances. Sofas. Cabinets. Also what is planned to be inside such. You need exact measurements of all of this stuff.
Then when you have all of that you have fun figuring out how all of it is going to fit, work and perform not only sitting at some RV park but also heavy fast driving through that twisty mountain highway. Road handling.
Weights and measures. The equations can become quite interesting. Also dynamic. Do not forget what happens when 100 gallons of fresh water gets transfered into a gray or black holding tank. Makes a difference.
Finally consider the passenger dynamics. How many seating positions? Passenger positions? Make a difference. Six 200 pound people moving around inside can and does affect everything while moving.
This is just a slight beginning presentation. Lots of homework MUST be done before a final interior and exterior Bus Conversion plan can be finalized. You want to be within 10 pounds of being perfect on all axle ends.
Does this sound impossible? Maybe. Maybe not. You also need to know your chassis. Axle, wheel, tire, brake, suspension capacities and performance. You can end up with a dangerous slug. Or a road warrior.
Edited More: ... It gets even better. Or more interesting or just impossible, depending upon your determination. Ideally after a long 7 day high speed run, the percentages of reduced weight should be the same.
You burn diesel fuel. This reduces axle loadings. You move around water. This changes things. Ideally one should counterbalance or cancel out the other. Is this impossible? No. Merely difficult. It gets even better.
Groceries get converted into black holding. Shower water goes to gray holding. Diesel fuel just ups and disappears. It all matters. This may sound like over kill but it really is not. Good planning is the key.
How important is this? Self done Bus Conversion Engineering MUST stand up to cross examination in a Civil Trial if you are sued because you were in a bad wreck. Particularity if you have very deep insurance.
If a good the-other-guy lawyer can even slightly prove that you DID NOT do your homework regarding your Bus Conversion and your bus was "DANGEROUSLY" out of balance you may be in $deep trouble$ indeed.
Respectfully.
Quote from: richard5933 on January 30, 2018, 04:30:49 PM
I don't think we're out of balance at all, really. The generator is on one side. It weighs in about 950 lbs. On the other side are the fresh/black water tanks. A hundred gallons of water weighs about 800 pounds. Whether in the fresh or black water tanks, it's the same amount of water and weighs the same (mostly). The tanks slightly cross over the center-line of the bus.
This also why you should never layout your bus such that your Fresh Water tank is on one side and the Gray/Black tanks are on the other. They should span the width of the bus as much as possible to distribute the weight at all levels. I have seen this before. Not exactly ideal.
You want the waste water tank close or directly under toilet btw.
chessie4905 if you were asking me about my AGM's they are 100ah that came out of ups that our company was removing I took 8 of the newest ones. Mine are laid out in a box not stacked about 85lbs each they are probably the grp31 in size. I have them wired in series for 24v, 400ah with a 4000 watt Magnum.
85% of the added weight in my bus is center bay, 1/3 13kw gen 2ea 70 gallon potable and 60 gallon black and AC condenser.
rear bay has centered 60 gallon grey and 20 gallon hot water heater. inverters and utility center.
front bay is stuff. beer wine chips canned goods pool noodles cooler camping fishing poles and..stuff.
Thanks for sharing that info.
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on February 01, 2018, 11:26:39 AM
This also why you should never layout your bus such that your Fresh Water tank is on one side and the Gray/Black tanks are on the other. They should span the width of the bus as much as possible to distribute the weight at all levels. I have seen this before. Not exactly ideal.
And nor should the fresh and waste tanks be next to each other. I see RVs with their dump valves very close to their fresh fills - to me that's serious cross-contamination just waiting to happen. I wonder how many such RV owners have got intestinal infections (or worse) because of this? If a tank leaks, what will happen?
John
Quote from: Iceni John on February 01, 2018, 07:25:37 PM
And nor should the fresh and waste tanks be next to each other. I see RVs with their dump valves very close to their fresh fills - to me that's serious cross-contamination just waiting to happen. I wonder how many such RV owners have got intestinal infections (or worse) because of this? If a tank leaks, what will happen?
John
It is possible to have tanks side by side and still provide separation and cross contamination protection. Both of our tanks are on the driver side. However, the dump valve exits the rear of the black tank and is accessed on the curb side of the bus while the fill port on the fresh tank is on the driver side of that tank. I know that our set up is very 'non standard' and does not comply with the norm being followed today. Our coach was converted in 1974 by Custom Coach. It still works the way it is so we're leaving things be. I'm just pointing this out to show that side-by-side tanks can be done while maintaining separation of the dump valve and fill port.
You're all lucky to have "bays". Without them, it's much more complicated. DAMHIK.
The builder of my coach did an extensive amount of research, planning, and design. Part of this included the fully loaded static load. Attached is a rough diagram of how the placeable systems were placed around the chassis.
Very Respectfully ...
Legal ... Bus Conversions ... Engineering ... Drawings ... Video ...
windtrader: Thank you for sharing your Bus Conversion engineering sketch . I hope you never see the insides of a Civil Action Court Room. The so called engineering sketch your builder provided is very immature and very non complete .
Any good tort lawyer could bury you alive if that is all you could provide for your defense regarding your possible Bus Conversion engineering. What you need is a thick photo album with many pictures and short descriptions of your Bus.
You need each axle END weighted. Empty and loaded. Also partially loaded. Plus all math calculations indicating how and why your coach was engineered and constructed in this fashion. You need much more documentation. Much more.
This would include pictures of all the things under the floor before installation. All manufactures. Model and type info. Weights. Installation methods. Components. Lots and lots of pics. A good HD color video would work best here.
Show the math. Exact evidence is best in a civil action. Also have a video showing the actual installation. Close ups. Show exactly how and why your Bus Conversion was done in the fashion it was. Validate the construction procedures.
Go through the chassis. Explain it all. Shell construction. Frames. Axles. Brakes. Suspension. Wheels. Tires. Document that the completed Bus Conversion is road worthy. More than that. Document that you have a road warrior.
This might take up a good sized photo album. For all the do-it-yourselves regarding a proper Bus Conversion, also consider the daily diary documenting all the right stuff and successes and why. Make it all good and cozy.
Separate all of this from the daily dairy outlining all the frustrations and setbacks building your own Bus Conversion. Keep THIS reality check separate from the success story. Keep the success engineering stories with the coach.
Also consider video taping everything including the photo build album and daily build diaries and putting copies in a safe place. Several copies better. You need to build a good data base showing all GOOD aspects of your coach.
Such copies might be golden getting Bus Conversion insurance. Might also help getting non commercial RV plates where ever you live. Also might just save your bacon if you are involved in even a SLIGHT accident NOT your fault.
Call it insurance. Also call it a way of documentation everything good about your coach. Nothing to hide engineeringly. I think all the above is very necessary and also FUN. Your mileage may vary. Just my point of view.
Finally ... it might be a good idea to spend the money and get a complete set of outside recording cameras. All sides and ends. HD if possible. A good system with recording speed, time, etc.. Another necessity today perhaps.
Most Respectfully ...
Quote from: HB of CJ on February 02, 2018, 12:50:52 PM
Very Respectfully ...
Legal ... Bus Conversions ... Engineering ... Drawings ... Video ...
windtrader: Thank you for sharing your Bus Conversion engineering sketch . I hope you never see the insides of a Civil Action Court Room. The so called engineering sketch your builder provided is very immature and very non complete ...
In an ideal world someone might be able to get all that. Few of us live in an ideal world. Our current conversion was done by Custom Coach on a new shell in 1974. They were considered by many to be in the top tier of the conversion world when they were operating. We have a binder of information from them that came with the coach, but the kind of things you're describing are not in there. I tend to be rather OCD about things like this, and it never really occurred to me to try any more documentation regarding weight than we can get on the scales.
Our previous coach, which was also professionally converted (we believe also by Custom Coach) had almost no documentation when we bought it. We were involved in a collision last year which resulted in a fatality. You are correct that the dash cam video is important, as it is what put a quick end to the troopers' investigation. We were never asked anything about our bus's conversion, weight balance, or equipment status.
I'd say that most important in all this is ending up with a coach that goes down the road safely. It should be reasonably balanced side to side and have the proper weight distribution front to rear. This is easy to document with one or two trips to the scales. Proper safety and maintenance records should be kept. If structural or changes to systems like the brakes or steering are going to be done, then I totally agree that Engineering needs to sign off on things and proper documentation must be done along the way. But for the house systems, I'd say that a sense of balance is important on how much to document (no pun intended, although it did kind of work out here).
Getting motor home plates on a bus just isn't that difficult in most states and only requires minimal documentation. I can't speak to anyone else's experiences getting insurance, but we were not asked for anything more than a few photos of the bus inside and out before we got our policy on both of our coaches.
One thing which we did not do with our first bus was get a professional appraisal. We plan to do that on this one as soon as I complete the upgrades I have planned for this spring. Having a current appraisal would have made getting our insurance settlement after the accident much quicker and would probably have gotten us a few more dollars.
Back to the original topic of this thread, I do agree that the more calculations that can be done before things are installed the better. Much easier to move things on paper than in real life after the bus starts to lean to one side.
Richard,
Misstated maybe on my part. That diagram is my own DIY drawing of what I see and where located. The only intent was to show that thought was given to balancing the weight left and right. And the term "builder" does not imply a commercial coach builder, just a DIY busnut who did a lot of research then designed and laid out his personal bus conversion.
Don
Quote from: windtrader on February 02, 2018, 01:42:28 PM
Richard,
Misstated maybe on my part. That diagram is my own DIY drawing of what I see and where located. The only intent was to show that thought was given to balancing the weight left and right. And the term "builder" does not imply a commercial coach builder, just a DIY busnut who did a lot of research then designed and laid out his personal bus conversion.
Don
Don - I wasn't really trying to comment directly on the sketch, but was trying to point out that all the different concerns for documentation have to be kept in balance.
on my M C I I put all the heavy water tanks at the back bay then the batteries and as you go forward less weight other then the genne in the old a/c bay but it was only 275 lbs ( honda 7000i ) as to try and keep as much of the weight off the front axle
now on the featherlite the water tanks are in the rear bay and the batteries are right at the back on the passengers side the front 3 bays are open with roll out trays for stuff but what gets me is the 12 k genne is as far forward as it could go on a air slide to service it works great but LOTS of weight as far forward as it can go
I would try and keep the weight as far back as you can and balance it side to side
dave
Don't forget the 2 heavy interior pieces, the refridgerator and the sofa, interior placement Is weight too, lvmci...