A common question I get asked "Sooooo why not just buy an RV?" Well for a few reasons they might be right. It would be cheaper, it would be done, but it would also be put together as cheaply as possible.
I've attached a photo I saw on youtube today of a wrecked RV. Looks like it started as a nice looking class A on a decent chassis, but the rest was sticks and staples. I'll make sure to show folks this when they ask next time.
The more I experience this world the more and more I realize beauty in the modern product is only skin deep. By Product I mean most anything.. it looks good, but once you get below that you find out every corner was cut twice.
You would never see that with a post era 1976 or later Crown Supercoach. It would be the other guy. :(
Uncle Ned had a friend here in North Carolina that blew a front tire .It was torn up worse than this one .It caught fire and the best I can remember a father and son lost their lives in that thing .I believe this happened on I-77.
After our head-on collision in our 4106 last fall, there was no way we'd replace it with anything other than another coach. The insurance adjuster told us that had we been in a traditional RV they'd still be picking up pieces. Any thoughts we had about getting an RV when we first shopped for the 4106 were totally gone. That's why we replaced it with the 4108. I'll gladly sacrifice some of the bells & whistles of a modern RV if it allow us to walk away from an accident like we had.
There is certainly something to be said for a full tube frame &/or stressed skin construction. FRP panels don't seem to hold up well . . . .
There are some RV's that don't use sticks & staples, Wanderlodge & Newell are 2 that come to mind. But, one is out of business & the other is priced way out of my league for a new one. ::)
We were at a local RV show & I couldn't believe the shoddy workmanship in the ones I saw there. The American Eagle we looked at seemed to have more things broken than working. The entry grab bar was even dangling from the wires that powered the internal light! :o
All the tacky & gaudy trim does not suit my taste either. Thankfully, current style seems to be leading away from all that.
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade how much better one bus is better than another, but General Motors outdid themselves when the RTS was designed.
Quote from: HB of CJ on January 22, 2018, 02:54:40 PM
You would never see that with a post era 1976 or later Crown Supercoach. It would be the other guy. :(
That entire RV is (was?) its own crumple zone.
John
Neoneddy,
At least you see it was a motorhome. Here is one (actually a SS trailer) that is being sold with the parts bin. LOL
If you go on the www.copart.com (http://www.copart.com) web site you can see many rv's that crashed and see what it looks like after. Very few are re-buildable, just parts vehicles.
You can compare those with the results of the head on collision we had in the 4106.
The Copart listing is posted in another thread. Night and day difference how the bus held up. Still a total loss, but we walked away.
Richard
1974 GMC P8M4108A-125 (Current bus)
1964 GM PD4106-2412 (totalled Sept 2017)
Located in beautiful Wisconsin
KD9GRB
More people are killed or injured in buses than RV's every year,most RV accidents are cause by inexperienced drivers.I will open a can of worms here people driving converted buses and the large RV's should have training and CDL license.
I read it here all the time people know nothing about the brakes on a bus all they know about air brakes it makes a hissing sound
QuoteMore people are killed or injured in buses than RV's every year
With over 5 Billion passenger miles traveled every year by commercial bus there would have to be. There is no way the RVers can come close to that.
https://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/FactBook/2015-APTA-Fact-Book.pdf (https://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/FactBook/2015-APTA-Fact-Book.pdf)
QuoteAt 26 deaths per year, the rate of RV deaths has an average fatality rate of 1/3 of the average rate of all vehicles or 0.44per 100 million vehicles miles versus 1.48 for all vehicles in the US.
According to this article, citing FARS statistics, all things being equal you'd much safer in an RV than an Auto.
http://www.tariolaw.com/what-are-the-most-common-causes-of-rv-accidents/ (http://www.tariolaw.com/what-are-the-most-common-causes-of-rv-accidents/)
QuoteI will open a can of worms here people driving converted buses and the large RV's should have training and CDL license.
I read it here all the time people know nothing about the brakes on a bus all they know about air brakes it makes a hissing sound
I agree there should be some sort of training. I've got it on my list this spring to audit some CDL courses etc. Luckily I do have a bus driver friend who works for the Minneapolis area Metro Transit and I've been working with him on some items.
The full on CDL requirement would require federal involvement and a lot more red tape that would be nessicary IMHO. Like you say, just understanding air brakes, or how to properly descend, how to handle a front tire blow out, etc would do so much to reduce those fatalities every hear.
Maybe this is where a community like ours came come in and create some of these guides. I've watched some youtube videos on a bunch of it, but plenty of new members coming here like myself might not even know what we don't know yet.
I couldn't agree more. I've had a CDL since they were first available, and a chauffeur license before that. There's just no way it's a good idea to have someone cruising the roads in a 35-foot 15-ton vehicle without someone amount of training.
Motorcycle drivers need a special endorsement because driving a motorcycle is not the same skill set as driving a car. Same with large vehicles.
I see some states starting to require a non-commercial version of the CDL for larger and/or heavier rigs (over 26,000 lbs). My hunch is that soon they'll start requiring something similar for even smaller rigs to bring things closer to the requirements for commercial vehicles. I know that people will scream and yell about it, but I for one would feel better knowing that people driving down the road next to me have had at least a modicum of training and testing.
Richard
1974 GMC P8M4108A-125 (Current bus)
1964 GM PD4106-2412 (totalled Sept 2017)
Located in beautiful Wisconsin
KD9GRB
As soon as some one in a bus conversion slams into the back of a loaded school bus, killing several kids, there will be requirements for CDL's.
I have been concerned the past couple of years as new generations of drivers start getting into bus conversions. Many of these new operators are clueless as to the effects of mass, speed, and reaction times of vehicles of this size. Since they only drove a car or truck previously, they will learn quickly with an occasional potential catastrophic result. I hope for the best, but this stuff happens even to the older experienced owner.
Thankfully, this forum can help educate the ones that, at least, post here.
When a bus hits something it own size and weight s*** happens the bus does fare well when hitting a smaller vehicle it will win every time,Several years back I saw 2 buses hit head on it wasn't pretty
A few years back, a conversion owner slammed into something significant, resulting in loss of legs or both broken, I don't recall anymore. I think it was reported over on BNO.
Quote from: chessie4905 on January 23, 2018, 07:39:28 AM
A few years back, a conversion owner slammed into something significant, resulting in loss of legs or both broken, I don't recall anymore. I think it was reported over on BNO.
That was Daniel when he rear ended a truck in Atlanta
Hi All, there are motorhomes as big and bigger, as wide and tall or taller, carrying vehicles in side, that may not be attached properly or at all, should they be regulated? government regulations would have to apply to all, a pickup carrying a quad, pulling a trailer, pulling a boat, with a class C license happens, lvmci...
The government has no regulations on RV's only the EPA.I have a friend in Idaho that builds 53 ft long truck conversions because there is no regulations
Public hysteria can change anything.
Sounds like we're talking about two things at the same time here...
First is licensing requirements for drivers. That would be easy to establish, as there already exists a framework for that. Just my opinion, but it seems to me that the RV industry has worked hard to keep the licensing requirements for drivers of RVs to be as minimal as possible to encourage sales. I'm sure that not as many people would be dropping cash on a large Class A if they had to first get a license upgrade.
Second issue sounds like regulations on the vehicles themselves. I was just at the RV show in Milwaukee, and it's shocking to see the wide variety of construction methods used. Protection for occupants ranges from nothing but fiberglass to some pretty robust metal cages/framing. This is a place I'd like to see some type of requirement - there should be at least a minimum safety standard for the front of an RV rolling down the road at 75+ mph. I know that it would be difficult to accomplish and would cost money, but it's my opinion that there should be something in front of a driver other than a fiberglass shell and some sheet metal.
I know that both of these issues are the proverbial can of worms. The driver training portion though seems like it's a perfect situation for a non-profit group or organization to step in a provide (minimally) for some type of 'best practices' system with training/certification. Dare I say it, but maybe the insurance industry teamed up with the RV manufacturers would also be a good fit for providing training for newly-minted RV drivers?
Interesting topic. Put on the research cap and got this stat from RVIA http://www.rvbusiness.com/category/rvia-wholesale-shipments/ (http://www.rvbusiness.com/category/rvia-wholesale-shipments/)
It seems quite remote that new regulations would be defined for existing Class A coaches (bus conversions included). The numbers are just not there to warrant the expenditure of time and money to go after bus conversions. Based on the RVIA stats, only 5% of all RV sales are Class A. Only a portion of these weigh more than 12 tons (arbitrary number); say 20% which is 1% of the total RV units. True bus conversions are a tiny fraction of the 1%.
I just don't see the interest on both sides, manufacturers and regulators, to aggressively pursue increased operator licensing. Just think about the impact on every DMV office to add this to their overly bloated operations and admin processes and one more thing law enforcement needs to enforce. That said, some incredibly horrible accident that goes viral would raise the question but after the next news cycle it'll be back to business.
We should take a lesson from our neighbors up north and at least have a air brake endorsement on the drivers license if you are going to drive a converted bus.
I am not against a DOT inspection on one every 2 years.There a lot of buses on the road that are a accident looking for a place to happen
Driver training requirements?
Don't we do that with our young people? How's that working out?
Same for learning to drive a truck. Industry can't get that right.
Could you just imagine the total crap an RV driving course would be? If you think everything else about RV's is crap...
The good research above is spot on. There is no problem here big enough to warrant the authorities spending anything on it.
That said, anyone who wants some top notch busnut driving training, RJ and I are available for the right price...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
to add to what Luvrbus said ... on all air equipped vehicles you need a air endorsement on your licence + as of this year you have to go and retest the original D licence ( vehicles over 25 k lbs ) that I have had for more then 40 years . now some time this year I will have to right a retest . not happy but times are a change - in
dave
They could decide to pull ANY bus or conversion over to do a dot. brake inspection. This could happen when they see a frequent issue with failed brakes on mountainous areas.
One of the reasons we have been left alone is a low number of accidents. My insurance charges the equivalent of only 6 months of drive time due to the lower average of highway use compared to care and trucks.
Like I said before, the right catastrophe will do it. Politicians love to go overboard with new regs to fix something quick, irreguardless of political party, or burdens on those directly effected. I've hung on to my cell for this reason.
Quote from: sledhead on January 23, 2018, 02:48:54 PM
to add to what Luvrbus said ... on all air equipped vehicles you need a air endorsement on your licence + as of this year you have to go and retest the original D licence ( vehicles over 25 k lbs ) that I have had for more then 40 years . now some time this year I will have to right a retest . not happy but times are a change - in
dave
Unless you are in a state like Wisconsin. Doesn't matter how heavy or what kind of brakes... If it's a motor home with MH plates a 'regular' driver license is all that's required. I'll keep my CDL and be ready if/when that changes.
Quote from: chessie4905 on January 23, 2018, 09:05:15 AM
Public hysteria can change anything.
AMEN
Usually results in more expense & inconvenience without any benefits.
QuoteThey could decide to pull ANY bus or conversion over to do a dot. brake inspection. This could happen when they see a frequent issue with failed brakes on mountainous areas.
But they never do because it offers the least return of investment of their time. They know a ratty looking semi runs a whole lot more miles down the roads with a lot more load more of the time. Catching one of these with a bad brake system helps safe roads a lot more than the random bus conversion runs the same miles in a year than the commercial does in a week.
If they felt bus conversions were an issue at all, all they have to do is have us pull into the weigh and safety inspection stations along the freeways.
They can wave a RV into a weight station I see it on the AZ /CA border where they have the rolling scales meaning you get weighed about a 1/4 of mile from the station.
I have been waved in before in OK and South Dakota only thing that saved me was my trailer was registered for carrying 8,000 lbs
As strict as California is, RV's older than 2007 are exempt from smog laws. And if you drive a 40ft or less, you can with a normal Class C (passenger car license) with up to a 3 axle housecar AND pull up to a 10,000lb trailer behind. No mention of brake type, or engine type. Plus no inspection. I've had my bus since 1993 and never had it inspected for any reason. Just plainly weird. Good Luck, TomC
We parked overnight in a Phoenix AZ rest stop where they were on creepers rolling under trucks and checking brakes with clip boards and tools looking at slack adjustments. They went right around us. I even got out and watched them. When they were done we started the bus up and left on our way. No problems.
Quote from: Dave5Cs on January 24, 2018, 10:30:27 AM
We parked overnight in a Phoenix AZ rest stop where they were on creepers rolling under trucks and checking brakes with clip boards and tools looking at slack adjustments. They went right around us. I even got out and watched them. When they were done we started the bus up and left on our way. No problems.
Is there a checklist of the items that DOT looks at, that any of us could also use to perform regular PM checks? I don't want to have to take my bus to ABC Bus every year for one of their mechanics to put it over the pit and check it - I feel I could do that as well as anyone else, provided I know what to look for.
When I had my bus towed last year the tow driver commented on the red cable ties that I put around the brake cans' pushrods to check their travel. He said it was the first time he had ever seen that on a private vehicle - he knew exactly what they were for! I want to do the right thing, especially if it's safety-related, but having some structure or guidance would be a help.
John
Quote from: sledhead on January 23, 2018, 02:48:54 PM
to add to what Luvrbus said ... on all air equipped vehicles you need a air endorsement on your licence + as of this year you have to go and retest the original D licence ( vehicles over 25 k lbs ) that I have had for more then 40 years . now some time this year I will have to right a retest . not happy but times are a change - in
dave
Not as of yet in Manitoba but I assume it will be coming. Sometimes change is a good thing.
But as far as the vehicle goes we are mandated to have a PMVI (Provincial Motor Vehicle Inspection) done prior to the initial application for insurance. The A inspection is quite involved as a wheel pull is required for an internal brake inspection. Brake linings, drums and hardware are all inspected and must meet or exceed Provincial or Manufacturers standards (whichever is less). This would amount to a cost of around $500.00 - $600.00 on an older bus given the amount of trouble it is to get a wheel off that has not been off for 20 years or so. The inspection cost is time based. Then there are the required repairs BEFORE you can get vehicle insurance. On the upside, in Manitoba no CDL (or class1 as it is called here) is required to drive it, just the air brake endorsement. If my wife got her air brake endorsement she could drive the bus with her class 5 license (the most basic drivers license you can get)
If anyone is interested this is the manual that describes what is checked in an annual Class 4 MOT test here in the UK, which would include a bus conversion (ie. a motorhome) weighing less than 7.5 tons: (and yes, the manual is 206 pages long)
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/611019/mot-inspection-manual-classes-3-4-5-and-7.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/611019/mot-inspection-manual-classes-3-4-5-and-7.pdf)
If the bus is still a bus (ie. a PSV) then the annual test is much stricter and there are monthly mini-tests too. I bought my bus directly from the operator and it came with a huge file of paperwork with the history of from dozens of those monthly tests. The manual for the PSV test is here (a mere 197 pages):
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/453332/public-service-vehicle-psv-inspection-manual.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/453332/public-service-vehicle-psv-inspection-manual.pdf)
Regarding licences etc for the driver I am lucky to be old enough that my standard car licence covers anything up to 7.5 tonnes, but nowadays you need to pass additional tests for each additional vehicle type (including simply towing a small trailer behind a car, which is ridiculous I think). As far as I know there is no separate requirements for vehicles with air brakes though
Jeremy
In Australia anything over 4.5ton needs an endorsement licence 3 classes in rigid
4.5-8ton 2 axle Light rigid
8-16ton 2 axle Medium rigid, plus an endorsement for crash gearbox
16 up 3 axle (tag or extra drive Heavy rigid Plus an endorsement for a crash gearbox and Roadranger endorsement
At around $1000au to do pick the class you need 1-2day drive and question corse
Then one you have a medium rigid up for a certain amount of time you can apply for a semi class
Heavy Combnation licence plus crash box and Roadranger endorsement
Multi Combnation B Double 1x 30ft and 40ft trailers
Multi Combnation Road train 3x 40ft trailers
At around $2000-$5000au plus a set time driving and holding a heavy Combnation licence
When converting a bus to motorhome you need an engineer to sign of in the work done approved by the roads department plus a condition mechanics written report, gas approved certificate and electrical safety certificate and the work completed by the electrician of the report
Seat belts must be fitted 3 point retractors where possible lap belts in side facing seats (engineered sign off) plus outward opening door with anti burst automotive style locks
When all done you get a blue second stage compliance plate affixed to the bus and can registered as a Motor Caravan
You still need to go into goverment Wight Bridge when directed, but no longer need to fill in a goverment driver hour log book as required for trucks/buses over 60 miles from home base
Some states have slightly different requirements but there is a mimum national standard enforced by decidicated transport inspectors and the police force aswell plus a zero blood for booze and drugs at mobile road test stations plus every police car/motorbike aswell as the transport inspectors
But all in all we just accept and do what is required to get our busses on the road
Plus some states have yearly road worthy testing at goverment testing stations jut to keep you on the ball