So we are needing to move our coach by Thursday from where we are in Warren, IN to Ann Arbor, MI. I just started her up today (first thaw we've had since before Christmas) after she's sat since before Christmas through some cold snaps down to -15°F. Now she won't build air. It's leaking majorly out of somewhere in between the rear duals. I don't have leveling valves anymore I'm completely manual on leveling so it's not that. Some line somewhere there is leaking maybe because moisture froze and burst it, I have no idea. Problem is that I can't squeeze under there to find and repair the leak. Coach is on leveling blocks stacked underneath the only two jack points I have back there. So I can't even stick a jack under there to lift the coach...
Up a crick.... and I really do need to get this coach moved. If you have any brilliant ideas, I'd be so grateful. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180108/9f4851fd9d18f85e3de081314f951a50.jpg)
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Can you dig a hole in the ground? Can you send your child under there? Can you wedge some wood under the tire? Is there not some other place to jack up even just to get started? Tow truck companies have inflatable bags that would be easier on the bus.
JC
I had a similar problem last winter when I parked the bus in snow and when it settled it broke the drain valve on an air tank. With a long stick I was able to "jam " the valve so the air loss was not total and air up the suspension.
Good luck
Yeah the loss right now is preventing any air buildup. Question, if I have an ice obstruction in the line somewhere or the air dryer is froze shut, where does the compressor unload the air? At the compressor or does it have a line that unloads it somewhere between the duals? I'm trying to figure out what the problem is exactly. Coach is parked on concrete. No digging.
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Scott, the child under the bus was sort of a joke... Although in a pinch...
The compressor doesn't unload really, valves in the head open, and it runs without making air, until the governor asks for air again. You should be able to reach the compressor to see if it makes air. Just open the "drain daily" valve at the ping tank while running. The air dryer lets air out to purge the filter in it. Maybe that is stuck open? Is the air dryer at the rear near the drive axle? It usually is near the front axle though.
JC
Would a low-height bottle jack fit? I keep a 12-ton low-height jack in the bus because if a front tire were completely flat a regular-height jack would not fit under the front axle.
From the Tu-Flo 700 manual:
"When air pressure in the reservoir reaches the cut-out setting of the governor, the governor allows air to pass from the reservoir into the cavity beneath the unloader pistons. This lifts the unloader pistons and plungers. The plungers move up and hold the inlet valves off their seats. With the inlet valves held off their seats by the unloader pistons and plungers, air is pumped back and forth between the two cylinders. When air is used from the reservoir and the pressure drops to the cut-in setting of the governor, the governor closes and exhausts the air from beneath the unloader pistons. The unloader saddle spring forces the saddle, pistons and plungers down and the inlet valves return to their seats. Compression is then resumed."
John
Do you have access to the manual valves that control the airbags, or are the up underneath and inaccessible? If you can reach them, plumb in a schrader valve there with a cut off on the supply and apply air there.
After a long layover my C3 would leak out as it was filling up, Gary from B&B told me to let the engine warm up a little then race the engine, the valve closed at the high RPM and started to fill, ending the leak, lvmci...
Scott, is there a chance an ice buildup is holding a valve (leveling valve?) open? If so, would applying a kerosene salamander heater to the area be worth a shot?
Arthur
Try to reach the leaking valve with a small propane torch. Ask someone to play with the valve inside. The problem could comming from else were also. Maybe a torn airbag. With a jack you should be able to lift the body from the rear. There is plenty of spaces to lift it up just a little.
Even from the engine cradle,just taking some spaces to crowl under. Do not lift to mutch.
If a airbag is faulty,just lifting a little will be suffisant for him to reseal himself on the bottom.
It looks like he's saying that it won't build air in the system at all, but the compressor is pumping, and that there is a audible leak between the main and tag. He's needing to get air to the bags so he can get under there and investigate further. Looks like he's parked on concrete (oh, how nice that would be). Any access to the suspension air tank to try and fill that manually? I've got male air QC fittings on my drains for that purpose...
Hi;
Just a thought. You should be able to remove the wheel on the tag axel.
That would allow access to maybe find your leak. You will need shop air to
find the leak.
Also with the tag wheel removed, you might be able to jack the duels enough
to remove the blocks. That is a lot of work, but it is doable.
Good luck, Merle
Can you get alcohol into the lines? It could just be a relay froze open and dumping the air.
All of this is great info! Thank you so much for all of your ideas. I am going to use my jack to try to lift up a different point on the coach back there it looks like I might have another Jack point. If I can get it higher Knouff I can remove the leveling blocks, and stick another jack under the actual Jack point. Once I have that done then I'm saved. So they leak in deed is between the drive axles. I did attempt to raise the engine I can only build about 30 psi it just keeps leaking out. The temperature today is 35°F, so I don't think anything should still be frozen. It was above freezing yesterday as well. And all last night. Once I get under there I can report back what I find wish me luck I'm still getting over a really nasty viral illness I just struggling with this past weekend.
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While I'm a noob here, I think Bob of the North is onto the right track.
I fired my bus up today as well in MN here, same situation as you, but I can wait until the thaw.
If air is leaking out and you can hear it (it is with mine, mine is up front under the front wheels), that means air is flowing. Air can bring a deicer do wherever the leak is as well naturally. Could use something as simple as alcohol and 30% water by volume. Get some brakeline antifreeze https://www.oreillyauto.com/shop/chemicals---fluids-16461/brakes-16516/air-brake-antifreeze-19422 (https://www.oreillyauto.com/shop/chemicals---fluids-16461/brakes-16516/air-brake-antifreeze-19422) I had some seafoam in the garage here, it said deicer on it, so I poured a little into the fill port on the rear passenger side compartment. I figured it couldn't hurt, first time I opened that port after buying the bus a mess of oil and water spewed out.
After running the home air compressor I noticed something dripping out of the front center under the bus... hoping it's either seafoam, water or both. Looks a bit oily so I'm guessing seafoam, but it should melt some as it warms up today. 38f as I type this.
Isn't alcohol bad for the dryer?
JC
Update on my similar situation, everything is airing up normally now.
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Sometimes my MC-5 had what I assume to be a check valve that froze causing the pressure to build up too high; then the high pressure relief would release until pressure dropped back down then it would go through the same cycle repeatedly. Evidently the place that the governor monitored pressure was after that check valve so the governor never cycled the compressor because the pressure never made it past the frozen check valve. I would move the coach from the unheated side of my shed to the heated side. Once it sat for a few hours in the heated shop, the problem went away.
But it was a pretty loud discharge, not an air leak hiss. My vote would still be for something frozen although today's weather should clear that up. I'd vote for running the engine and compressor some more and maybe the relatively warmer compressed air from the compressor will solve the problem without climbing underneath. ??
Fred
When a compressor sees set pressure the governor tells it to go into unload mode. simply said, it holds the valves both open and the compressor swaps it's effort back and forth between both cylinders.
If the dryer is frozen, it will simulate this condition, except the dryer becomes the point and nothing beyond will get to set pressure.
Normally the dryer will "leak" at the dryer purge exhaust under this condition.
Have you tried airing the system with an auxiliary/shop/portable compressor upstream of the dryer?
bypassed the dryer with a fabricated hose ?
last, were i you i would take a sawzall or chain saw and cut the plastic blocks out and proceed.
When it is too cold for my diesel tractor to start I take a small construction heater and direct it at the engine under a tarp.If you think this is cold related and something may be frozen apply heat under the bus using some type of forced air heater to thaw things out. It it was a frozen pipe/tube I don't think it would leak past the frozrn section.And even if it was a rupture in a pipe I think the air compressor would have enough volume to evercome it.
Regards
Fred
Neoneddy, there are 2 tanks behind the front wheels, in the middle, you pull the nipple or ring, to release these air tanks and moisture, I recently replaced both relief valves, lvmci...
Just a data point, I have in the past experienced a frozen purge valve so I understand and am familiar with that scenario. That's not what I have going on here. Coach won't build any more than 10psi. Air hisses loudly out of area between duals. I'm guessing the leak is in one of the short copper lines up in there. I just can't seem to get the coach jacked high enough to get myself and blocking underneath. Of course I can't release the brakes so I can't pull it up onto wood ramps. I'm just stuck... at my wits end here. I'll try running brake line antifreeze through the system but it's 38 now here. I can't believe anything is still frozen.
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@scott: at 38 that's only 6 degrees above freezing. Everything that is frozen is under the bus, ambient air isn't going to melt anything quickly. Yes the ambient temp is warm enough, but it takes a lot of heat to warm up that much mass.
When I first fired up my bus this morning it would not build anything. Even with the home compressor running and the engine revving the needle just bounced a bit past 0.
I think the sea foam did the trick for me, I added that to the fill nozzle and ran the home compressor some with the bus off. Then I ran the engine for 1-2 minutes. Let it rest for 5-10 ... then fired again and it came up to 30 psi right away. Then the story picks up where I posted earlier with the leak up front. I had hissing from almost everywhere it seemed.
I hope I'm not giving bad advice, just trying to help. It worked for me today, we had that -25 stuff what? 36 -48 hours ago. Feels balmy right now.
Ok I'll give it a try....if it ends up being that easy, I'll hug you hahah :)
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Scott, since you ruled out the air dryer, my blind monkey won't do you any good. But I wish you luck,
Will
If it's a leak from a valve not closing, the idea of using a kerosene heater with tarps around the bottom might work. Even though it is above freezing now, it was below freezing for a long time prior (all that metal mass will take time to warm up). If it is a break because of freezing or whatever, you will need to get under to repair. Try smaller scissors jacks or whatever short bottle jacks will fit to get the bus up a little to give you more room for a bigger jack. Is there someone close by with a larger forklift? Digging a hole might help. If the ground is frozen still, a hammer drill with chisel bits would dig it out. There might be higher points to jack from within the engine compartment.
My money is still on a stuck relay. How about a cube heater pushed in between the duals? And I'm a big fan of a judicious whack as a cure for a lot of situations. Its frowned on as a cure for domestic difficulties but anything involving equipment I'm open to that as a potential cure. Can you see the relay? Poke it with a stick?
this might be low enough ( 6. 3 /4 " ) to get in there just get a longer handle or eat your wheaties
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-heavy-duty-low-profile-industrial-hydraulic-bottle-jack-66569.html (https://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-heavy-duty-low-profile-industrial-hydraulic-bottle-jack-66569.html)
dave
Scott, maybe I'm missing something, but can you get a tall-enough jack under just-ahead of those blocks (but still under that radius arm) and lift up just enough to loosen the blocks and slide them out? I would think that you should be able to apply quite a bit of lifting force on that radius arm (you'd want to double check that of course), to get one side at a time to lift the two or three inches needed to get those blocks removed.
Once they're removed you can put your jack under the proper lift point and repeat on the other side.
Rent one of those kerosene space heaters and aim it under bus in appropriate area. Keep it back enough not to get surface of coach too hot.
How often did you drain the "drain daily" valve in the engine compartment? Number one disablement on a busnut owned MCI, lack of regular draining, the discharge muffler has a slug of water in it, freezes, and that's the end of air system functionality.
As robust as it is, it is possible to burst the discharge muffler by deep freezing, though you really need bad luck...
A lowered body and unable to air up, this is exactly the condition for which the busnut measures, and chooses a squat hydraulic jack that will fit.
On the concrete, the proper jacking point can't be accessed? under the radius rod isn't the place.
Do you have a shop compressor? Do you have fittings on the aux tank? Is the aux tank up under the driver on a "C"? The aux tank feeds the suspension. Depending on the condition/design of your other invisible air system valves, you may or may not be able to keep air in the aux tank, and get the suspension to raise up.
Where is the air drier on this beast? Feeding alcohol and related products into the air system ahead of the drier will make more trouble, the desiccant will turn into mud, and foul the purge valve, royally screwing you a little later on in the winter. The alcohol has to be introduced to the wet tank, downstream from the air drier, if that is going to be attempted. The wet tank needs to have fittings, and you need a way to pump it in.
As noted, a long solid rod/bar/stick, placed against whatever is leaking, and whack the end of it with a hammer.... DO NOT MISPLACE IT and WHACK the FITTINGS OFF THE VALVE!!! It MUST be against the valve body, and not against some part that will snap. Whack it with engine running and air whooshing, so you get some feedback on whether your efforts are close.
And then plan for the offending valve to be changed out, it will stick again...
Every busnut reading this... what's your plan for adding fittings to your coach tanks, and testing whether theoretical air system recovery methods work, on your coach, on a warm sunny day?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I have shop air and have been using it. I do drain the drain valve often. It was drained just before parking the coach while the compressor was running. I maintain the air system, which is why this stumps me. I'll go back at it tomorrow in the light of day.
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Quote from: buswarrior on January 08, 2018, 04:46:29 PM
Every busnut reading this... what's your plan for adding fittings to your coach tanks, and testing whether theoretical air system recovery methods work, on your coach, on a warm sunny day?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
My electric compressor's tank drain is how I can also feed shop air (or air from a big wrecker truck . . .) into the accessories tank, then a new valve there allows that air into the wet tank. This way I can quickly air up the accessories system or the entire bus from the electric compressor or from outside air. Crown also put an easily accessible Automotive male fitting on the end of the wet tank's drain. As the Scouts say, "Be Prepared".
John
If you can get to your compressor disconnect the delivery line and pour in some brake line antifreeze, then reconnect it to the compressor and fire it up again. Brake line antifreeze is not as harsh as methyl hydrate on your air system components.
If it is a blown line it obviously won't help but if that is the problem it MAY just work.
Can you get a camera phone in there via a long selfie stick? Set the phone on video and try to see the problem. It has worked for me on several projects but I have had to put the phone in there over and over and over for 45 to 60 seconds at a time to get just the right view.
Davy
Can you get a jack under the tag axle, and remove the wheel? Maybe you could get far enough in there to see where the air is coming from.
"Can you get a camera phone in there via a long selfie stick? Set the phone on video and try to see the problem"
Its amazing how often a cell phone (camera) comes in handy. Like when your old eyes can read small print or something you can't see clearly.Take a picture and then enlarge it on your cell phone. I just did this yesterday to see the size of my injectors.(N60).
Fred
Scott can you get a jack under your hitch receiver maybe and lift it high enough to get under with another jack or wack the relay from there. Can't figure out why you have the rubber blocks under the Radius rod ends rather than the jacking points. Have you tried to hookup air to front Brake release Schrader valve in front tool compartment . If it would hold enough air to release the brakes and you can start the engine you should be able to get off those blocks. Just some ideas.
Finally got under the bus...and I have a small crack in the very top of the tank Right where it mounts to the coach body. Ugh. This sucks majorly..... (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180109/cdba7f4eb1748d8e0acef32bdda6c37e.jpg)
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I keep seeing Flex-Steel commercials on TV. Wonder if it would work with a little cleaning. It might be available at Home Depot.
Your tank is looking resonnabily in good shape. So a little of soldering will get back your bus on the road again.
Yeah I'm trying to remove the tank right now. It's a pain... shoot me now
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My $.02 here, again, the noob, but when I bought my bus it had a 1/4" hole in a copper line in the tunnel... it still built air albeit slowly and with use of the right foot.
I'd say a little bit of 80 grit sand paper to clean the area down to clean metal and some steel stick putty would patch it up enough to move it. IF that is the issue.
I'd make it easier to clean up. Buy one of those handheld sandblasters and use it to clean area and then use the epoxy stick to temp fix till you can replace tank.Or you could get a small needle scaler from Harbor Freight, although if metal is thin in area, you could end up with a pretty large hole
https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=hand+held+sand+blaster&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=153672935751&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14933584188329912486&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9006537&hvtargid=aud-395862694963:kwd-747168669&ref=pd_sl_5czgnphne4_b (https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=hand+held+sand+blaster&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=153672935751&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14933584188329912486&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9006537&hvtargid=aud-395862694963:kwd-747168669&ref=pd_sl_5czgnphne4_b)
I'm afraid to try and patch it in place because if it fails while I'm on the road, I'm up a creek without a paddle. So I'm pulling the tank and will take it to a welder and have it done. Rest of tank appears really solid.
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And how did you get under the bus?
JC
Remove it is the only option,while you are doing that,you can clean your one way valve also.
A goog inside tank cleaning will be welcome also.
Jc, had to buy a shortie jack. Found another temp jack point, lifted it enough to remove orange blocks and then swapped in jack.
Ok so I can't see to get my wrench to turn the large air line flange nuts enough of a turn to get the wrench back on for another turn. Is there a special wrench for these situations? It's tight under there.
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Scott I use crow feet all the time!
https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=crow+foot+wrench&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=153732136762&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=s&hvrand=3747980168007192449&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=200524&hvtargid=aud-397161105788:kwd-247188784&ref=pd_sl_3692r44znc_e (https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=crow+foot+wrench&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=153732136762&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=s&hvrand=3747980168007192449&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=200524&hvtargid=aud-397161105788:kwd-247188784&ref=pd_sl_3692r44znc_e)
;D BK ;D
Nice I need to find one ASAP. I'll call around thanks Bryce
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So I'm kind of done trying to get this thing out on my own. I'm still sick with a nasty virus I've had for a week...and bad weather is coming to indiana this weekend. What are the odds this bus can be towed to a shop? How do they tow when they can't release the brakes?
Quote from: Scott & Heather on January 09, 2018, 09:54:52 AM
Finally got under the bus...and I have a small crack in the very top of the tank Right where it mounts to the coach body. Ugh. This sucks majorly..... (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180109/cdba7f4eb1748d8e0acef32bdda6c37e.jpg)
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HI;
Can you tell us how you "finally got under the bus"?
Merle.
Does it have maxi brakes? If so there is a bolt with each one to cage spring allowing movement.
The C has DD-3 brakes
Can I back off the slack adjusters and release the brakes that way? I'm trying to get a tow truck tomorrow to come and get me. He's thinking that's the only way we can release it right.
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Unless you really enjoy spending a lot of money on towing and having someone else work on it, consider cleaning up the metal around the crack with wire brushes on a drill, warming the metal up with a small torch , and applying JB Weld or some other two part epoxy to seal it. Heat the epoxy with the torch after it is applied so it bubbles down into the crack, then reapply more epoxy on top of that (keep the area warm with a heater until it cures completely). I repaired a diesel injection line that was cracked at the flare under the fastening nut that way, and it lasted for years. I fixed a rusted out hole in an air tank in my first Eagle with epoxy in 1996; it is still holding air. Your results may vary, as they say, but there is a good chance it will get you to Michigan and warmer weather. Besides, what are the chances that some other part will fail before the tank repair does? Can you think of any other things that have gone wrong in the last year? Remember, this is advice from a frugal Yankee who really hates to spend unnecessary money.
Which tank is cracked?
If you can get air into the others, you may be able to get the DD3 released.
Requires air fittings in the drains to find out.
Make sure the tow truck leaves airline connected while towing, if this works...
What kind of slack adjusters are on the coach? They are NOT all created equal, you can destroy the internals of auto-slacks by trying to back them off using the wrong procedures. Into the manuals...!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
In the past I have purchased wrenches at the farm and hardware stores. The idea to Custom cut them up for many many special locations. This always worked and not always cheap, although way less than a snap on. Box end types also have been especialy handy cutting short, cut for line style and then welded onto extensions.
Whatever it takes and
Good luck there
Floyd
It looks to me like a welder would have room enough to weld it in place without removing the tank good welders can get into tight spots
Quote from: luvrbus on January 09, 2018, 07:01:48 PM
It looks to me like a welder would have room enough to weld it in place without removing the tank good welders can get into tight spots
yup, bending rods and mirrors...good old 1109 rod :)
which is really 6011.
I don't know which tank this is. It's the one that creates the hump on the back luggage bay wall in MCI's. Can anyone tell me what size those flare nuts are? Appear to be 1-1/8". They are huge. My 1-1/16" open end doesn't fit on them. But it's close.
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180110/0a051e90bbf437152d12b741362c3e7a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180110/cd6a930caa92ebafc84c93674890897b.jpg)
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Quote from: eagle19952 on January 09, 2018, 07:14:56 PMyup, bending rods and mirrors...good old 1109 rod :)
which is really 6011.
Just don't weld your 710 cap shut!
Hey does anyone know if I can cut a small access hole in the rear luggage bay wall to access those air lines better? I'm grasping at straws. Waiting for the crowfoot to arrive Thursday. My nice weather window is closing and I really need to get our family to Michigan soon. Our baby is due in 4 weeks. Hospital and OB are up there. We are down here. Not cool.
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Some JB weld may get it sealed enough to save you a tow bill to a shop. Around here, the welder would have to have a pressure vessel welding ticket (boiler). Probably not the item to let someone "practice" on.
If that is the one in your rear bay against the bulk head, on the driver side the wall around it on the inside of the bay comes out. screws at the top and bottom. About 6 screws and it bends to come out. That should be your dry tank.
Scott JB weld is really good stuff and drys over night. Clean it good with acetone or alcohol, wire brush, sand paper etc. Then apply let dry and apply some more and let dry.
Forget trying to fix it yourself. Even if you get that tank unhooked and repaired or replaced, how would you ever get all those rigid, fine thread copper fittings reconnected without crossthreading or refusing to start without full access to area? The big lines refuse to be manipulated in cramped access. Having it towed to a place with pit or hoist would be ideal. Wrecker services with experience towing a bus can handle locked brakes issue.
Jim I have no doubt I can JB weld it. I've had excellent results in the past. But I don't have physics access to the crack by sight. Only by feel. The Photo was using my smart phone held up where I can't see. So to properly clean and JB weld it requires I access the crack visually or remove the tank. Dave, I don't think I have this removable panel but I'll look closer today...
Chessie, that's exactly what I'm afraid of. I can't see how I'll be able to lift the heavy tank back into place, get the mounting nuts and bolts back on and how on earth will I be able to thread those huge flare nuts back on without cross threading. Ugh.
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Scott you'll be able to do anything that a "shop" can do yourself, it might take longer, but in the end you can do it the same as they can. Biggest difference is if they cross thread something they walk to a parts bin and get new ones out and add it to the bill.
I ain't saying a shop can't do it faster with more tools and equipment available, just that they charge for everything they do and that is how they afford to buy all those fancy tools and gadgets.
IF IT WERE ME, (and I know it's not) I'd take a chance on using lots and lots of brake cleaner in the area of the leak and then soak a scouring pad like an SOS pad or similar and scrub the area as best as possible and then mix up a full batch of JB weld using both full tubes and smear it all around that bracket and let it dry. Once dried it will probably hold enough to get you (A) where you are headed, (B) able to release brakes to drive it up on ramps, or (C) able to drive it to a shop vs towing it there. (I'd judge the ABC by how well it holds air when started.)
Once at a safe better location it will be easier to repair properly.
;D BK ;D
Scott, if you are still in Warren, IN I'm less than 20 miles from you. Don't know what I can do to help but feel free to message me. Tools? parts?
two six 0,two two four,four three two 0
Dick
I don't know if JB Weld will work under 125 psi of air. I would try the Flex-Steel spray after cleaning. I have a colonoscopy type camera for repairs like this. (I forget the name of it for autmotive uses)
Scott, I'm with BK here. I know it's not a permanent fix but you're in a bind. Clean it the best you can. Use those throw away rubber gloves. Goop the JB Weld on as good as you can. Two or three applications if you have time. May have to use a heater for it to cure. That should get you to where you need to be and get the coach high enough to really get up in there and fix it. Even if it leaks some you can get where you're going.
I feel for you, man...... I've been right where you are on old trucks.
TOM
If the drive wheels were off, is that enough access?
Watch, SOS pads have soap impregnated in 'em. Course steel wool will do the job.
Get these jobs separated. First job is access, then the repair.
Can you get air to the suspension? Choose a side to pull drives off, JB weld prep and apply. Go about your business and decide what to do about the long term later.
the tow needs air in the suspension anyway... time spent is money saved.
This would be so much easier standing there beside you...!
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Is the crack along the mounting bracket? That would make a JB Weld repair easier. Consider that it might have been cracked for some time, and the prolonged sitting and deep cold opened it up further. If you heated the tank it simply might close up the crack tight enough for the compressor to keep up.
Looks like that has been leaking for a while and he probably has a another air leak besides his tank.
Quote from: buswarrior on January 10, 2018, 07:45:51 AM
If the drive wheels were off, is that enough access?
Watch, SOS pads have soap impregnated in 'em. Course steel wool will do the job.
Get these jobs separated. First job is access, then the repair.
Can you get air to the suspension? Choose a side to pull drives off, JB weld prep and apply. Go about your business and decide what to do about the long term later.
the tow needs air in the suspension anyway... time spent is money saved.
This would be so much easier standing there beside you...!
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
BW thanks for remembering to point that out. I don't actually use SOS pads, but rather a soap free copper similar type of pad and could not think of the brand name and so used SOS as a reference to type of pad to use not thinking about the soap in the SOS pads.
Also agree 100% about it being easier of one were right there beside him to help. And as a side note I had thought about recommending he contact Scott Crosby of the BGM board to come help him. I forgot about Dick and several other BGM members being in that area that might be able to assist.
But I am also in agreeance that a temp repair is a better route than a tow since to proprly tow it they need to air up the suspension as well as release the brakes. Of course a Landoll could be used to haul it w/o airing it up, but to load on a Landoll w/o damage w/o air is going to take a very skilled operator a very signifagant amount of time which equals $!
Also as noted taking the drive wheels off the driver side may just be the ticket to access the area needing repair.
;D BK ;D
It is so friggn cold there I feel for the young man,I hate removing air takes on a 80 degree day
Ok guys, I just finished cleaning, degreasing rinsing, sanding rinsing, and then drying with a torch and heating it up before applying an entire package of JB weld. Now I'll wait the 24 hour set time before starting the coach. Crossing fingers with a prayer.
I have one question, can someone please tell me definitively which tank this is? I have to order a replacement from Luke because I think this one actually might be too far gone.
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I am pretty sure as someone posted above it is your "dry tank" and Luke should have or can get you one.
;D BK ;D
Good day there
Floyd
ps: an incandesent drop light suprisingly is a wealth of heat in this situation.
First tank inline from the compressor or dryer is your wet tank from there it goes to the dry tank from the dry tank it goes to the others like parking,brakes and auxiliary tanks on a C and other MCI's,MCI's get a little screwy on plumbing with air dryer mounted at the front axle.Not being there I would guess dry tank since it is not building pressure to open the valve to fill the other tanks
My 1980 MCI has the dry tank at the rear axle bay in front of the driver's side tires, but behind a wall, You access it from the luggage bay. Yours looks like the dry tank. That huge air line would be from the wet tank, the other lines feed the R8 valve and the E9 foot valve, and the rest of the air system.
Ok so I just tell Luke "I need the dry tank" and that should do it? JB weld is applied and drying. Tomorrow I'll test it...
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I've got 50 that it works fine! Y'all have the experience doing things right. My badge says hacker and JB Weld if applied to clean surface is bombproof. It's magical stuff and really is like metal - you need to grind it off once set.
No do not grind the JB weld. Let it seal and dry and leave it alone until you can replace or weld the tank.
It is the "Dry tank" like I said way back. It is the only tank back there and generally laying down with the drain in the middle and 3 big lines going and coming from it. On the 5C's they are behind an "L"shaped metal wall with 2 small hinged flaps. One to get to the drain and one to get to the electrical regulator up on top. I took out that wall and the tank is all exposed to get to everything.
Scott you may not have the wall. Maybe your's is in the well wheel on your model? or just inside the back bay on driver side.
Man I can't see any kind of removable wall but that would explain why it's been so hard to mess with this. I can't do it anymore. My hands are torn up bad and I have to play piano and sing this weekend for $$. If this doesn't work, I'm calling a mobile repair guy. This is nuts.
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Man, 2018 starting out rough for ya brother.
Quote from: luvrbus on January 10, 2018, 08:00:58 AMLooks like that has been leaking for a while and he probably has a another air leak besides his tank.
It also looks like the leak is right along the mounting bracket original weld. That makes me think -- along with the leaking for a long time part -- that that bracket was put in under stress or tension when it was installed and it finally broke from too much force on it. I'm sure it can be JB Welded up (or even metal welded) to go for a while but if it was carrying enough force on the mounting brackets that it broke, why wouldn't it break again or why aren't the other brackets and parts overstressed also?
If it were my bus, I'd have a new tank in there -- and I'd be sure that mounting points on the bus weren't out of line or misinstalled in a way that would break the brackets off the new tank too.
DaveC some C3's have 4 tanks at the rear 2 vertical and 2 horizontal and the only you can remove any of the 4 is from underneath the bus and you had to remove the 2 vertical tanks to remove the dry tank a real PITA
Quote from: windtrader on January 10, 2018, 12:20:59 PM
I've got 50 that it works fine! Y'all have the experience doing things right. My badge says hacker and JB Weld if applied to clean surface is bombproof. It's magical stuff and really is like metal - you need to grind it off once set.
I'll take you up on that "50", but do you mean $50 or 50/50 chance it will hold? I do not think it will hold under 120-125 psi pressure. It needs to be brazed for a more "permanent" fix, but Flex Steel is easier to work with but I am not claiming it is permanent either. And you can't put it on if the JB fails, it is too late. I say JB Weld will not hold because it is made for non-pressurized leaks... it has failed me on that score. Yes, it needs to hold until a new tank is put in, that is a stress crack.
Geoff
Quote from: Geoff on January 10, 2018, 03:01:12 PM
I'll take you up on that "50", but do you mean $50 or 50/50 chance it will hold? I do not think it will hold under 120-125 psi pressure. It needs to be brazed for a more "permanent" fix, but Flex Steel is easier to work with but I am not claiming it is permanent either. And you can't put it on if the JB fails, it is too late. I say JB Weld will not hold because it is made for non-pressurized leaks... it has failed me on that score. Yes, it needs to hold until a new tank is put in, that is a stress crack.
Geoff
I don't think it will hold either but hoping it does for Scott ,if he could get in the space to clean it good enough for JB application a welder could have brazed or used a high strength silver solder to repair it more stable IMO
Cliffford,
Asked a few times where it was but only saw he said in the back bay so figured it was like mine was. Then he said was it ok to cut a small hole in the wall? Nobody answered him?
Weather JB weld will or will not work, a lot of time has been wasted with, what if's in stead of doing something and letting us know what happened and where he could go from there.
He was fast to tell us about his freshly manicured hands and his money maker but still no progress on the tank....LOL Sorry Scott could not resist.... ::)
But what do I know I am now beating Eagle with 8 Ignores and he only has 7. And you my friend as well as Geoff have fallen to 4 each, whats up with that anyway, LOL ;D
Well we both know who one of them is , lol
DaveC I don't think he can get to those from the back wall they are centered in middle of the bus framing
Scott, I hope you melted the JB down into the crack with the torch, otherwise it might all be on the surface, and keep the area warm until the curing time is over. Curing will be slowed down by cooler temperatures. Based on my adventures with epoxy sealers, if you did all that it should hold. Now that you have been in that area, is there enough room to work larger wrenches or even crows-foot's with ratchets (for you or anyone else)? Did you have the tires off to get in? Would jacking it up more or having a pit make it easier? Have you applied penetrating oil on the air fittings to get them ready for removal if it came to that? When the JB holds, consider doing a testimonial for them with all the bloody details.
Scott,
This will not fix the tank--but it might help you ;)
1 Cor 10:13 and Phillipians 4:6
And take a deep breath!
Steve
I'll repeat lol, JB weld is applied. Curing. Temps are 50 degrees right now for the entire 24 hour cure time so I don't need to heat it. 40 degrees is the cutoff. Anyway, I'll find out tomorrow if it holds or not. If it doesn't I have no idea what I'll do. I can't work on it anymore. I'm at a loss.
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darn...wish i woulda got here sooner. this category of product holds pressure...
http://www.laco.com/repair-sealants/heat-seal-stik/ (http://www.laco.com/repair-sealants/heat-seal-stik/)
http://www.comstarproducts.com/metal-lock-black-no-heat-solder-for-all-metals-2-oz (http://www.comstarproducts.com/metal-lock-black-no-heat-solder-for-all-metals-2-oz)
but, if rector seal works jb might if you have the right stuff.
Use RectorSeal EP-200 2 oz. Epoxy Putty Stick to help complete your household plumbing repairs. This easy-to-mix putty cures in just 15 to 30 minutes and resists temperatures up to 500 Degree .
Bonds to most household surfaces
Easy to mix quickly
Convenient epoxy putty can be can be sanded, drilled, painted, tapped or machined
Cures in just 15 to 30 minutes for rapid results
Pressure-tested up to 1,200 psi
Resists temperatures up to 500 Degree
Ok, the path is chosen.
Now, the order of operations, should you be fortunate enough to get air integrity...
Immediately consider the air may go away at any moment.
Allowing the coach to go back to the ground is a huge waste, keep anything you have gained:
Prepare sufficient blocking to immediately insert into the axle to keep the body up, if the air goes away. We used to use 4x4 blocks in Big Transit, into the cavity where the bump stops are. Some form of 2x layers, etc.
If the coach is going to be moved, no dilly dally and go disabled in a bad position for further recovery or blocking your escape vehicle.
The longer it holds stationary, no false courage, movement of the coach may trigger failure. What's the plan for JB to be broached half way down the street?
Faith or putting your God to the test?
Perhaps spending the time to yank the wheels and get in there so you can bang around and see if that tank is going to split the repair? If it stays air tight with you banging around, the courage is real and grows stronger...
Tough decisions.
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
OK for the record I was only saying that I would have used JB Weld as a TEMPORARY fix.
But I have used it in many strange ways and places in emergencies and MOST (not all) of the time, it did just what I intended for it to do and allowed us to get it moved to a better location for proper repair regardless if it was just off a hwy, into a parking lot, or even back to our own shop for final and proper repair.
I used to use a product similar to JB Weld called Marine Tex which is some BAD @$# $#!%!
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=NwVXWr7qBYrzzgLlt6VI&q=marine+tex&oq=marine+te&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l10.1246.11746.0.14874.16.13.2.0.0.0.391.3504.2-8j4.12.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..2.14.3521.0..46j0i131k1j0i131i46k1j46i131k1j0i46k1j0i10k1.0.Wr0V_Ou3sQ8 (https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=NwVXWr7qBYrzzgLlt6VI&q=marine+tex&oq=marine+te&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l10.1246.11746.0.14874.16.13.2.0.0.0.391.3504.2-8j4.12.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..2.14.3521.0..46j0i131k1j0i131i46k1j46i131k1j0i46k1j0i10k1.0.Wr0V_Ou3sQ8)
I haven't used it in some time as I ran out and I moved 50 miles from the boat repair shop we used to get it from.
But it is truly some good stuff. I have used it on hot oily race car engines between races to repair broken manifolds, carburetors, radiators, transmissions and other "quick fixes" to get the car back on the track. I have used it with water/antifreeze running out of a busted intake manifold where we had 30 mins between the heat race, and the feature race and it held up!
But I have always kept JB Weld in the tool box for a quick repair even when I had Marine Tex on hand (which I used to keep on hand also and was the first go to epoxy) and used them in many strange and different ways regardless of whether or not it was recommended or fell outside of the guide lines.
Not long after I first heard of and started using Marine Tex I was at some boat races and watched a team use sheet metal screws to put a 1' X 1' sheet metal patch on a flat bottom racing boat that had hit a piece of driftwood floating in the river and then smeared Marine Tex all around the patch and had the boat back in the water in 15-20 mins for the next race! (they actually did the repair with the boat hanging 4' above the river with a crane that was already there for lifting some of the boats in and out of the water.)
SO IF Scott was able to get the area clean I feel the JB Weld should stop or slow the leak enough to get the bus to a better place to make the repair. That place of course depending on how brave Scott is and how well it stops the leak. If it is holding with no signs of leakage with the soapy water test I'd probably drive to where he is planning to be a while and make sure when he parks the coach to drive it up on the ramps so he can replace/repair it at will on his own time schedule.
;D BK ;D
Ditto BK. JB Weld is not permanent in this instance due to the crack being right on the stress line of the bracket. The tank movement is going stress that same spot so over time, who knows, maybe 10 miles, it will like crack the JB weld. But i still lay my 50 down that it will get the bus to a shop, maybe even until the weather warms up.
Thanks guys, yes, the JB weld is a TEMP fix to get the coach to the repair shop 50 miles away. I have the new tank from Luke on it's way (should arrive Friday) but I'm not messing with it anymore so I just need this to hold so I can get the coach to the shop in Kokomo Indiana.
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I'm very interested to see if it holds. I think it will. His luck has to turn around!!
what shop in Kokomo In?
Here Scott this is where you are going. You're welcome. ;D
Lol... ok so I started and aired up today and did test run. I had to dump my full 150 gallon black tank and fill up
My empty fuel tank so I drove about 20 miles to the loves, did all that, aired up my tires all around and drove back to my friends driveway. No issues at all. Aired up and I can tell this issue has been going on for some time because the bus is holding air now like it never has since my ownership. Waiting on new tank to arrive and then I'll take tank and coach to the shop in Kokomo hopefully Monday and have it replaced. I'm so relieved. JB weld has worked and saved my behind literally!!!
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Scott I am so glad to hear it!!!! I've been thinking about you all day..
I'll make one more suggestion: If you are going to set around until Monday before you move again, I would pump the brakes to release as much pressure as I could on that tank. No need of it being under pressure unless you need it. That said, I have an air compressor tank that has a crack in the bottom. I JB welded it 2 years ago and it's just starting to leak a little now. That patch on your tank may last until you sell the bus or it may blow off before I finish typing.
Help it all you can!!! ;D ;D
TOM
Scott glad to hear it held :)I was rooting for ya.
Good luck Jason
Thanks guys. Yeah bleeding off all the air is a good idea. Loooking forward to getting the new tank in and all of this behind us. Baby arrives in 3 weeks so we need our ducks lined up.
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Good news! Just like I thought, it was leaking for a long time and just opened up more with the cold. Don't forget to thank JB Weld. Do you remember the episode on Seinfeld when Kramer was out test driving a car with a salesman, and the car was low on gas but they decided to keep on going? They ran out of gas eventually, but they had fun up until that point. I suspect that tank repair will get you further than Kramer. :D
Great!! I hope it holds.
Geoff
That is indeed great news I have been following this thread with interest but didn't want to share my story. I patched the intercooler on my coach with JB Weld (it was a vertical crack in the tank about 12" long) and it blew out at the top of my driveway. Maximum boost on our rig (C10 Cat) is about 25 lbs. I figured it was a good chance of holding I've done lots of other stop gap repairs with JB Weld and had good luck. Ended up replacing the whole intercooler. The right thing to do.
Fred
Also glad to hear it, been following it. Crazy a small crack caused all that.
All the best!
So if it is a boy .... Tank R. Bennett?
When they install the new tank, make sure it seats properly at mounting tabs to body. Shim them if necessary, so you don't have a repeat failure.
J. B. Bennett ;D
Quote from: chessie4905 on January 12, 2018, 06:21:25 PMWhen they install the new tank, make sure it seats properly at mounting tabs to body. Shim them if necessary, so you don't have a repeat failure.
Yeah, there's something dicey about that mounting arrangement -- something out of line, bent, etc. to put that kind of bending stress on the mounting bracket. That bracket and its weld should be hanging there when the rest of the tank has rusted away and has fallen on the garage floor as orange powder.
Is the tank hanging by the two mounting tabs or is there another mount somewhere else on the tank?
If it's just mounted by the top two tabs, then wouldn't there be a tendency for road vibrations, etc. to put stress on the welds between the tabs and the tanks? If there is no additional mounting, then maybe one could be fabricated to help in the form of a strap or something?
Reason I mention this is a similar thing happened to my Yanmar Diesel running my tractor when the fuel filter case cracked where it mounted. Yanmar had re-purposed the engine from a skid steer application to the tractor application and it was running at a different RPM in the tractor. This caused a different frequency for vibrations, and they discovered that another mounting point had to be added to this and a few other accessory mounts. When the dealer sent me the replacement it had a third mounting hole which was not on the original.
Well, after spending some time cleaning the hole and patching it using a mirror to view it, I realized that this was a rusted hole. Not a stress hole. Somehow it rusted at that point maybe moist mud was building up on there over the years and it corroded a hole right there. So I don't have to worry about it being a stress crack. The new tank just arrived so tomorrow morning she goes into the shop and the tank gets swapped out for a brand new one. I'll inspect and take photos of the old one.
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Coach made it to the shop. Now to wait....(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180115/1cfef5a1f114a0050fc65999cb3cdb54.jpg)
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Eooooo,Whats that white stuff on the ground. :)
Glad you made it.Ill bet the drive was "white knuckle".
I found rust generally starts or occurs at a weld point. Something about heating the base metals from room temperature up to 6000° C - 8000°C then back to room temperature kinda does funny things to steel. :o
Steel melts about 1370°c.
Yea how does it drive with the snow like that? I think I remember you asking about chains before so I don't know if you use them. To be honest, I would be a nervous wreck if I was driving with snow on the ground.
Part of me thinks the weight of the bus would really help with traction but I just don't have the wheel time and experience with it.
Re:driving on snow, me too... 30,000 lbs even at 30mph on ice gives me white knuckles... and I'm that guy doing the speed limit in 4WD with 4 inches of snow on the road... ok maybe not the speed limit, but definitely passing most traffic cus reasons.
Quote from: Branderson on January 16, 2018, 07:25:24 AM... I would be a nervous wreck if I was driving with snow on the ground.
Snow is what you look at through double-paned glass window while you sit by a fire with a small Scotch in your hand. (In our defense in NC, we rarely get falling frozen precip but when we do, it's usually more ice than snow. No snow plow or clearing equipment, no accommodation on the road layout, people with little experience and unsuitable tires. Yeah, just stay home -- or parked).
Nothing beats a motor coach for all 'round stability in the snow.
My first choice in a snow storm.
A 4x4 doesn't change lanes in rutted snow at highway speed very well...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
When I was a kid I drove school buses in Ottawa in the winter. Literally never thought twice about driving in snow, it was what you did at least 60% of the time. A little later I commuted regularly between Toronto and Ottawa. Many many times got caught in lake effect snow along the 401 and if you found a bus you thanked your lucky stars. Those guys could break a trail for you and you could follow them - until they pulled away because they were flat out faster than you could drive, even in their tracks!
Brian
Quote from: bevans6 on January 16, 2018, 11:04:54 AM
When I was a kid I drove school buses in Ottawa in the winter. Literally never thought twice about driving in snow, it was what you did at least 60% of the time. A little later I commuted regularly between Toronto and Ottawa. Many many times got caught in lake effect snow along the 401 and if you found a bus you thanked your lucky stars. Those guys could break a trail for you and you could follow them - until they pulled away because they were flat out faster than you could drive, even in their tracks!
Brian
When I was a kid growing up in Minnesota we pushed school buses by hand when they got stuck. Wish I had pics ;D
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on January 16, 2018, 09:37:52 AM
Snow is what you look at through double-paned glass window while you sit by a fire with a small Scotch in your hand. (In our defense in NC, we rarely get falling frozen precip but when we do, it's usually more ice than snow. No snow plow or clearing equipment, no accommodation on the road layout, people with little experience and unsuitable tires. Yeah, just stay home -- or parked).
LARGE Scotch, Bruce... ;D
Quote from: PP on January 16, 2018, 12:36:20 PMWhen I was a kid growing up in Minnesota we pushed school buses by hand when they got stuck. Wish I had pics ;D
With no shoes on, uphill in both directions. I've heard all about it from my lovely new wife, the Minnesota-Norwegian Viking queen!
Quote from: PP on January 16, 2018, 12:37:05 PMLARGE Scotch, Bruce... ;D
Works for me -- I was actually thinking of a small one, replenished often through the day. When it snows, it's not just for breakfast anymore!!
Haha. I'm a Michigander, snow doesn't bother me. I actually tried and successfully did a slow speed drift in the snow yesterday on the way to the shop. Was fun...drove on glare ice at one point and coach did perfectly fine. My wife was following in the 4x4 and was having more issues than I was in the 4" of snow on the roads.
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we drive from the great white north to florida every year after christmas and on most trips we hit snow . one year we hit a bad storm from pittsburgh and kept driving until we got through the tunnel in north carolina . on the way we went through 12 " of snow on the road and I was braking trail . zero tracks on the road and I wanted to get to the other side of the hills before they closed the road . driving on that much snow I could not tell much difference other then you always had in the back of your mind that you might have to hit the brakes but never had to . there was about 1.5 hours that I never saw a car or truck on the road in front of me . now I had a following of cars and trucks behind me that I could not see the end and no one ever tried to pass . lets just say they were happy trying to keep up with me
so yes a couch is amazing on snow
dave
Quote from: buswarrior on January 16, 2018, 10:23:02 AM
Nothing beats a motor coach for all 'round stability in the snow.
My first choice in a snow storm.
A 4x4 doesn't change lanes in rutted snow at highway speed very well...
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
What he said. Drove mine from Anchorage to Minneapolis VIA Winnipeg in late Oct/early Nov. no chains. I even shut the Detroit down nights in NWT, YT, Alberta and Manitoba.
Quote from: eagle19952 on January 16, 2018, 05:11:15 PM... Drove mine from Anchorage to Minneapolis VIA Winnipeg in late Oct/early Nov. ...
Wow, it must have been cold -- that's already the dead of winter by about three months! ;D
There sure are a lot of folks from Minnesota or very near on this board.. Who knew Minnesotans loved busses so much ;D
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on January 16, 2018, 05:39:30 PM
Wow, it must have been cold -- that's already the dead of winter by about three months! ;D
12 kw generator and 50 amp 220v electric furnace ran 24/7 :) which powers a 2000 watt coolant/block heater too.
Quote from: chessie4905 on January 15, 2018, 12:59:05 PM
Steel melts about 1370°c.
It sure does. My mistake, it is not the base metal that heats to the temperatures I listed, it is the arc. The metal only heats up to around 3000° C
Bus is done and fixed. New tank...had a leaky tire valve replaced too. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180118/58b8d023aec39d3451660bea70095342.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180118/fa1b08a041126bc3a504b3812c78b03c.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180118/f9198383934874f065700e85fd5ac409.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180118/8ee2f252993754ae7d2a5cad2ad3387e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180118/17b7bf030253b86aa02012ea1763bd50.jpg)
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Sorry double post. Tapatalk fragged.
Those tanks must be fairly thin when new.
I have no idea why it rusted a hole in the top, but here's to hoping I never have to deal with it again. Probably the worst thing I have worked on between both of my buses...
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Glad you got it, Scott! It is amazing that it failed while parked in a place where you had resources rather than on a mountain pass during your last big loop out west!
Davy
Are those the only mounting tabs, or are there two more? If there are only those two, it looks like a half-assed mounting system to me. If more than those two tabs, then nevermind.
There are four. Two on top and two on bottom.
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That tank is a royal pain to remove,they seem to always rust at the brackets on the top from holding water on top of the bracket I guess.I always spray the new tank with under coating spray from Napa
He should coat the new one with spray cosmoline since it is already installed.
He may have got lucky and the replacement tank is powered coated.I never got that lucky