When I went to service my House Batteries for an upcoming trip a couple of days ago, I noticed a couple of them had dry cells in them and they are not "Dry Cell" batteries. :D So I filled them up with distilled water and let them be. The next day I smelled something unusual and discovered two of my batteries boiling the water out and they were very HOT.
I took the worst one out of them out of the circuit (There are six 4D batteries total) until I could get this resolved. I couldn't find a temperature probe in the area which I thought perhaps it had one at one time, but may have been moved when I had the compartment painted, but thought there should be one. Do all decent inverter/charges have temperature probes? Also I measured the specific gravity and I have a few bad cells. I suspect at the very least I need all new batteries. What are your thoughts on this?
Hi;
I would pull all six batteries and have them checked out by the people
that sold them. IE; interstate, exide, Walmart etc. They will usually
check them at no cost.
Merle.
Do a load test (Harbor Freight has them cheap :D)after charging them up. Check out your Charger also. It may be over charging them. If an inverter is charging them check it out to make sure it is not either. If you are using a Converter to charge they are known for killing batteries by boiling them. :o
Have you ever done an equalize charge? How old are the batteries?
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No Gary, I LOVE boiled peanuts, but boiled batteries? That can taste very good. Quite acidic if I should say so....might need some tums after that meal.
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These batteries were installed new in 10/15. I seem to get only a year or two out of a set and at $270 each for 6 batteries, they get pretty expensive. But I full-time so this eats them up a bit faster than those that are parked with a steady-state load on them most of the time. >:(
Do you have an electronic read-out to refer to often, and keep track of whats going on??>>>D
Gary, I had that happen to my house batteries about 8 yrs ago. I figured out the cause was a chest freezer on a joey bed in the basement. Everytime it kicked on it activated the charge cycle on the bats until they over heated and cooked. I have since replaced the chest freezer with an upright tool box along with all the bats. I'm on 8 yrs with this set. I check them once a month and top up the distilled water along with a specific gravity reading. Knock on wood they're still going strong and we full time also. ;D Heart 2000 inverter/charger,
Will
I do have an electronic read-out. Unless the lights start getting dim, I don't pay much attention to it.
Please, Gary, you should be seeing at least 7 years from a set of batteries.
You have a battery murderer on board that mu$t be dealt with!!!
You can check those batteries yourself, do the specific gravity for all the cells and see where you are?
List off the rest of your electrical equipment and your usage/charging strategy?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I just had to change my house batteries in Austin Tx 5 years old,if 1 goes bad like mine it will boil the others with the inverter try to keep the bad one charged,just be sure the batteries are wired correct don't have the + and - on the same run
I try to check the water level every couple of months, but sometimes do not get to it which is really bad, I know. I only check the specific gravity when I see a problem then it is usually too late. I checked all cells two days ago and about half of the batteries have two dead cells by the posts.
I have an all electric bus so it does draw more AMPS then some buses, but I have an Aqua-Hot and I seldom cook with the stove so I really don't tax the system much. However I am concerned that my inverter/charger allows the batteries to boil. I need to RTFM (Read The Freaking Manual) tonight to see where the temp probe plugs in and see if it has one as this should prevent it from boiling.
Probably need to have an expert look at it which I can probably get one to look at it this week, maybe before I buy new batteries. I know basic electricity, but don't know much about inverters/chargers.
Mine boiled even with a probe
I called my battery supplier who is very good to me and he suggested I replace my 6 4D batteries with Trojan 8 to 12 6V golf cart batteries. He said I should get longer life out of them. Someone else told me the same thing a few months ago. I would have to buy one more cable per set to make the 6V work in series, but that isn't too bad at about $15/cable. I need to measure my battery box area too, to see if I can fit in taller batteries but if they will fit, I may go this way. He said I should get more life out of them. Besides, I may get old someday and these 4D batteries are almost the same size as the 8D start batteries and they are dam heavy when you lift them over my head.
They must be wired correctly as they would have had more problems in the past two years. I am pretty careful about that.
Gary, like it or not, you need to check water level without fail once a month while in use. After some experience, you may be able to stretch it to every two months. Normal charging and discharging is going to consume water. Once a cell gets dry, the dry part is destroyed as to being useful anymore and battery will have less capacity. The charger doesn't know this, so tries to charge group of batteries. Trying to bring them up to total charge, resulting in rest of batteries constantly receiving charge, getting hot and consuming more water.
You may consider gel cell batteries, as they don't have any water issue to replenish, are pretty much maintenance free and are pretty expensive.Very costly. Some here swear by them. They do have an issue of a possible thermal runaway in some type of situation which isn't totally understood.(discussed a couple of months ago by Clifford and others)
Some diagnosis of the murder suspects BEFORE you subject more new batteries to their da$tardly deed$...
Digital multi-meter and check what voltages are being applied by the charging equipment.
Disconnect/bypass the batteries identified as having bad cells.
Even if you are down to a single, try to get the charger in a position to prove it was fooled into boiling 'em, and not boiling 'em on purpose.
Yes, golf cart batteries are a common solution for busnuts for many good reasons.
As for finding an "expert"... uh, don't you have a Board full of them right here?
Ultimately, the wetware is what murders batteries, time to get $mart?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I am seriously considering getting a battery watering system. They are not cheap but they are cheaper than buying new batteries every two years. Can anyone recommend a good system? I used to have gel cells but they are not in my pay grade now. Does anyone know what the Gel Cell golf cart batteries go for now? Used to be $170 each, but I heard they are about twice that now.
Also, I took one of my 4D batteries out of the circuit that was boiling so much. Do I need to change the Amps on my charger to charge slower or anything till I can replace the batteries later this week?
Here is a video I took yesterday for your viewing pleasure. Pretty scary. Not sure if it could blow up, but I definitely wore my safety goggles. http://busconversionsstore.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Battery-Boiling.mp4 (http://busconversionsstore.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Battery-Boiling.mp4)
Good Grief, Charlie Brown!
What is the charging device that is driving this adventure? What are you using for a SOC - state of charge monitor?
Don't go adding more hardware, before the stuff you have is evaluated, and we kick your a$$ for not watering more regularly...
This may be an easy fix?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Worst name ever given to a battery "MAINTENANCE FREE"
They all need there checking every month acid and gravity checks for those that have caps and maintenance free the voltage needs checking with each battery disconnected fully charged and rested to check the voltage recommended by the battery manufacture for that type of battery
Keep a log book page for every battery you have
Batteries in strings will show the full charge voltage even with say 2 failed battery in a string of 6, if left that way for a period of time will kill all the batteries
If an one cell has boiled dry in the battery that cell is dead and will never recover. What usually happens is a bit of oxide has come away either vibration or when the lead paste was mixed, the acid was run in to fast and caused a raw oxide ball to form (the paste should be disposed of as every battery made with it will fail) these are only the size of a pin end and the acid will boil
its crucial that every battery be treated as its own source of power i.e. 12v as 2 12v batteries will hide a 10v failed one till its to late Disconect and Check
Down load How to maintain your Deep Cycle Batteries from the manufacture and understand they need looking after and document it. You wouldn't drive a car a long distance without a fuel gauge Just this one is on paper
Battery are like Lawn Mowers they get abused till they STOP
Spent a quite a few years at Dunlop Batteries R+D
I agree with BW, you need to check the whole system before you start replacing Batteries. Sure do a load test on them but something in the system is make it do this. All ends should be taken off and cleaned both terminals and cables etc. Inverter setting checked to make sure they are not to high. A good SOC meter installed so you can monitor the State of Charge when these events go on if they continue. Check your ground on your inverter also if there is one. Check your disconnect switch to see if it is dirty or ground shorting etc. Any other equalizers in the system. If starts are connected to these check them also.
Batteries can explode just ask Clifford. :o
I have 6Volt 232AH US Batteries and they work very well. I have 4 in series for my 24 volt magnum inverter. Soon I will put in a second back of 4 more being they are fairly new. Then there will be 8.
Gary, it sounds like you need a good battery SoC monitor. There are several amp/hours-in vs. amp/hours-out monitors available, but they are all intrinsically inaccurate. SmartGauge makes a SoC monitor that works well, and works well for a long time without its accuracy drifting off. They are available in this country through Balmar - not cheap, but a lot less than a new set of batteries that have died a premature death: http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/sgvahrs.html (http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/sgvahrs.html) SmartGauge's cogent explanation of their product says it all! If it weren't for the fact that I have enough PV power to always keep my batteries fully charged, I would be buying two of these monitors for my house system.
John
yup. u really need to describe the rest of your system...inverters chargers controls.
AGM Batteries solve a lot of problems.
wet batteries need way more attention than you have given them.
DEKA sold me 8d AGM blems for way less than NAPA new lead acids.
the blems are cosmetic.
my current set was new in 2011.
xantrex Freedom with130 amp charger
is that big black thing in the video a kettle ? that looks like a battery . it should never look like steam is coming out of it
this is what I use to see how full the batteries are ( just like a fuel gauge ) has worked great for years
http://www.bogartengineering.com/products/trimetrics.html (http://www.bogartengineering.com/products/trimetrics.html)
dave
Dave has already posted a link to Bogart. That's my favorite SOC monitor but it doesn't matter which one you use as long as you use one of them. If you are replacing batteries every 2 years you need to spend some time understanding batteries and battery systems before you waste any money on new batteries.
Don't trust any "expert". If you don't understand enough to argue with your "expert" you aren't ready to purchase anything.
Solar if you have it can present a problem too my solar charger went bad and with the solar and alternator going I looked and I was getting 16 volts on a 12 volt system so I pulled the fuse on the solar and it dropped back to 13v.
It may not be your inverter setting it could be a bad ground and the inverter is charging full blast they do if it doesn't sense the voltage I had a Trace the grounding relay went bad and it cooked the batteries
Everything has a cost.
Time and money.
You can just throw another set of batteries in there every 2 years and carry on.
Many busnuts and boaters quietly/unknowingly/confidently operate this way...
Regular inspection/maintenance on a battery set has a cost/benefit that will greatly extend the battery dollars, but take time and effort to learn and the discipline to periodically do it.
Buying the expensive, (and in this case, band-aid solution) AGM... a quick check shows AGM cases costing double FLA. Will they last twice as long under the same conditions?
But without a list of the existing hardware and its settings, we're just blabbing...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: sledhead on December 27, 2017, 05:15:40 AM... this is what I use to see how full the batteries are ( just like a fuel gauge ) has worked great for years
http://www.bogartengineering.com/products/trimetrics.html (http://www.bogartengineering.com/products/trimetrics.html)
dave
My continuing inability to understand how them little electrictrons run around and hold hands means that I have no earthly idea what the following on the Bogart website means:
"Requires one of two shunts: 500A/50mV shunt allows amp measurements from 0.1-over 400 Amps. 100A/100mV shunt allows amp measurements from 0.01- over 70 Amps"
Does Bogart supply a "shunt" with this meter? If not, where is the best place to get one at a good price? Is a "shunt" an electrical component or device? How does it work? Why can't you just connect this meter to the battery?
The electrico-iddnurint thanks you!
UPDATE: I did some digging around on them InnerWebs and found that a couple of different places specify or recommend "Deltec" shunts. A press release says that Deltec has been bought by another company in December 2017 (Riedon Inc.). Here is a website location for Riedon with a photo (I'm assuming that the photo is really of a "shunt" and not a photo of Lego parts that are meant to represent a shunt). It says to order from a distributor, "Digikey" shows the RSB-500-50 for sale under part number 696-1597-ND, in stock, for about $25 each (no idea of price of shipping). It would seem that there would be installation instructions available somewhere.
Bogart says to order the meter from a distributor. The closest one to me is in Florida. The svHotWire website shows a price of $190, "including shunt" (does not specify whether 100 or 500 Amp capacity).
I realize there are some that have had bad luck with AGM batteries. I have 2-8D Lifeline batteries for house. My first set lasted 7 years (they have a 5 year warranty). I also have a Trace inverter/charger that has a 3 stage charger that I can set the voltage and amperage (AGM batteries can take about twice the charging amperage than wet batteries so charging is faster). In those 7 years I did zero to the batteries. They are sealed, can be mounted in any position (except upside down), and don't gas so terminal cleaning is not needed. You can't beat no maintenance in 7 years compared to wet batteries checking the water level monthly, checking the acid level, cleaning the terminals at least once a year, etc. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: sledhead on December 27, 2017, 05:15:40 AM
is that big black thing in the video a kettle ? that looks like a battery . it should never look like steam is coming out of it
this is what I use to see how full the batteries are ( just like a fuel gauge ) has worked great for years
http://www.bogartengineering.com/products/trimetrics.html (http://www.bogartengineering.com/products/trimetrics.html)
dave
Hi;
I have never heard of Bogart engineering before today. Never heard of a battery monitor
either. I went to the link and got some knowledge. I will be looking for one when I get
to quartzite in a few weeks. There are many solar equipment people there.
Thanks for the info and this great board.
Merle.
Brought my Owner's Manual in today. I have a Trace Engineering U2512 Series Inverter. The guy who built this but put in the best of everything so I assume this is a good one. Need to do some reading today I suppose. :)
Optional built in charger?
Or?
Write down ALL the settings in it before you mess with it, or you ruin the evidence!!!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Good lord Gary, I HOPE that's steam and not hydrogen gas..... Looks like your charger is just charging away at the bulk rate instead of throttling back. Check the manual and see how your inverter/charger is configured, and IF it's charging AS CONFIGURED.
For those looking at battery monitoring you might want to look at this.
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/balmar--smartgauge-battery-monitor--16030900 (https://www.westmarine.com/buy/balmar--smartgauge-battery-monitor--16030900)
You get most of the same information but a lot simpler setup. No shunts to install and a lot simpler to use.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on December 27, 2017, 07:30:44 AM
My continuing inability to understand how them little electrictrons run around and hold hands means that I have no earthly idea what the following on the Bogart website means:
"Requires one of two shunts: 500A/50mV shunt allows amp measurements from 0.1-over 400 Amps. 100A/100mV shunt allows amp measurements from 0.01- over 70 Amps"
Does Bogart supply a "shunt" with this meter? If not, where is the best place to get one at a good price? Is a "shunt" an electrical component or device? How does it work? Why can't you just connect this meter to the battery?
The electrico-iddnurint thanks you!
You have to pick which shunt you need depending on the size of your battery bank. A shunt is just two connection points separated by an electrical connection with a very small but known resistance across that connection. The meter reads the very small voltage drop across that known resistance and uses that to calculate amps in and out of your batteries. It sounds simple but I'm sure its very complicated. I've had several Bogart Trimetrics on the bus, boat and RV. I wouldn't consider trying to live on batteries without some kind of SOC meter - Bogart just happens to be the one I know but I'm sure the others work just fine too. I did briefly own a Xantrex Link system but it made me so mad I did a buoyancy test on it and it failed so I wouldn't recommend one of them.
Gary, just for the heck of it, did you inspect every cable, connector, and surface of each connection in the parallel series to make sure you don't have a break in the chain - FWIW
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on December 26, 2017, 05:37:00 PM
I seem to get only a year or two out of a set and at $270 each for 6 batteries, they get pretty expensive. But I full-time so this eats them up a bit faster than those that are parked with a steady-state load on them most of the time. >:(
Could this be from all those Adult toys you have plugged in? jus a thought. ;D
Pull the ones that had dry cells, not just one of them. Then turn on inverter and see if it settles down. I just went through this in my coach. Didn't check often enough. One battery(of 4) had some dry cells, another had one slightly below top of plates. Topped them all off and hooked inverter back up to them. Next day, inverter was still charging 17 amps and the battery that had dry cells was pretty hot. Others were warm. Shut everything off. Replaced that damaged battery and after 1 day charge was complete and done. I checked frequently and amp charge kept dropping frequently till fully charged. I was using the pulse charger's on the batteries with a unit that moves from one battery to the next every 15 minutes. Works nice but even with this setup, battery water level needs to be checked every two or three months. I previously left battery get low on water. Unless you set a specific check schedule, whether you are using coach or not, a month can creep to several, especially when you are busy or are getting older and time definitely seems to go faster.
You might want to consider something like this for filling batteries. Put a shelf in battery compartment and just move hose from one cell to another. I use a discontinued Plews 1 gallon container with long 3/16 hose with pinch off shutoff to fill mine. Hang it on hook in Bay so I don't have to hold it. I think I'm going to go with this one though. Can just leave it on shelf unless I need to refill it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=gallon+battery+filler&client=tablet-android-verizon&sa=X&biw=962&bih=601&noj=1&tbs=vw:l,ss:44&tbm=shop&srpd=1012587321428573276&prds=num:1,of:1,epd:1012587321428573276,paur:ClkAsKraX6qvKi_0kynroEBt6xjU5lP02sgo8qbO2l0eOj-fpJo1D1uHCHUttvymrN9-0_-RtZiTlkLjk1mq7UZCkdAg93Gpp0UEZqZfNEeQCEuJhVHPt8AlYhIZAFPVH708JRimHreVIVb4CU1UQMvgpmFH9Q&ved=0ahUKEwjZw4Gm06vYAhVFYt8KHYriAQQQgjYI4QQ (https://www.google.com/search?q=gallon+battery+filler&client=tablet-android-verizon&sa=X&biw=962&bih=601&noj=1&tbs=vw:l,ss:44&tbm=shop&srpd=1012587321428573276&prds=num:1,of:1,epd:1012587321428573276,paur:ClkAsKraX6qvKi_0kynroEBt6xjU5lP02sgo8qbO2l0eOj-fpJo1D1uHCHUttvymrN9-0_-RtZiTlkLjk1mq7UZCkdAg93Gpp0UEZqZfNEeQCEuJhVHPt8AlYhIZAFPVH708JRimHreVIVb4CU1UQMvgpmFH9Q&ved=0ahUKEwjZw4Gm06vYAhVFYt8KHYriAQQQgjYI4QQ)
Since your batteries are not boiling in the conventional sense, a temperature probe isn't going to help. The probe measures the battery temperature and adjusts the charging set points to compensate for temperature. Cold batteries need more volts to get them fully charged and less when it is hot.
My 4 off 12V 260Ah Fullriver AGMs are 11 years old and still going nicely.
Quote from: Tony LEE on December 29, 2017, 12:50:50 AM... My 4 off 12V 260Ah Fullriver AGMs are 11 years old and still going nicely.
Nice. I got 10 (one subsequently stolen from my storage space) AGMs that were takeouts from a cell tower. I don't know their history but they test out very well. They're rated about 80 Ah each so my entire bank of the nine will be about 75% the capacity of your Fullrivers. I don't know if Fullrivers are available in the US but your experience is a great endorsement. Do you use an inverter/charger? If so, which brand and model?
Quote from: TomC on December 27, 2017, 08:05:00 AM
I realize there are some that have had bad luck with AGM batteries. I have 2-8D Lifeline batteries for house. My first set lasted 7 years (they have a 5 year warranty). I also have a Trace inverter/charger that has a 3 stage charger that I can set the voltage and amperage (AGM batteries can take about twice the charging amperage than wet batteries so charging is faster). In those 7 years I did zero to the batteries. They are sealed, can be mounted in any position (except upside down), and don't gas so terminal cleaning is not needed. You can't beat no maintenance in 7 years compared to wet batteries checking the water level monthly, checking the acid level, cleaning the terminals at least once a year, etc. Good Luck, TomC
True True, My last AGM lasted 11 years, just last July replaced the 4 D's @ $2100.