Took ol Red out to Owatonna,mntonoght to see our local Junior hockey club play an away game.
I thought it might be fun for the family to relax and enjoy the ride and sleep well on the way back.
Anyway I noticed the temp gauge never got much over 140-145. 180 is optimal for complete fuel burn right? I did notice a little white smoke when I really have it the go juice.
The otr heater is installed and used, got it to a comfy 74 inside by the time we got home.
Nothing else to report.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Do you have the shutters and dampers still installed? MCI used a "shutterstat" system to activate air powered shutters in front of the radiators and dampers to kill the efficiency of the big fans if the engine was running too cold. The shutterstat closes at 178 degrees, so MIC obviously wants the engine to run around 180. Ditto the thermostats open at 170 degrees, fully open at 185 degrees. This is for a 8v71, might be a little different if you have another engine, but close.
You don't want to run the 6v92 that cold 170 is the minimum it causes a washout as it is called in the engine world and you will be rebuilding the 6v92 if you don't get the temp up,we would change the t stats to the fully closing type in cold weather.You can also have the snap on type covers made for each side and adjust those I had a set for my MCI 8 to help keep it warm in Idaho I bought from MCI,get the temp up though are you will have problems JMO
Ok, thanks guys, didn't know it was that dire, everyone always talked about overheating being the big one. We only put 180 miles or so on it in this condition. My next stop will be to DD shop down the road.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It could be your temperature gauge. Buy a laser temperature gun and check. They are on sale this weekend at Harbor Freight, $17
Update: checked my louvers on the raditors and they moved freely. I guess they aren't getting activated for.some reason, I'm 95% sure they were open last night.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Geoff on November 26, 2017, 07:58:28 AM
It could be your temperature gauge. Buy a laser temperature gun and check. They are on sale this weekend at Harbor Freight, $17
Thanks Geoff, I have one but didn't think to use it when I got home. I had to manually shut off the engine, that darn shutoff selonoid keeps sticking.
Anyway, when I'd did that everything felt abnormally cold. When I first bought the bus last year it was in freezing temps and it was much hotter.
Can thermostats fail open? I suppose that preferable to failing closed.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Time to get 180°F Tstats. Problem solved
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I wouldn't jump on thermostats. If shutters are staying open, check to see if the air shutoff valve is open. If it is, loosen airline going to shutterstat. If you have airflow, replace shutterstat. They're usually Kysor of Cadillac. They are available on eBay and most likely Luke and others. The temp setting should be stamped on shutterstat.
If you don't have air supply to shutterstat, figure out why. Follow air lines to make sure you are checking the input side. The output goes to the shutter cylinder. If you have air on both sides of shutterstat, then the problem is in cylinder, linkage or shutters.
Quote from: chessie4905 on November 26, 2017, 10:28:04 AM
I wouldn't jump on thermostats. If shutters are staying open, check to see if the air shutoff valve is open. If it is, loosen airline going to shutterstat. If you have airflow, replace shutterstat. They're usually Kysor of Cadillac. They are available on eBay and most likely Luke and others. The temp setting should be stamped on shutterstat.
If you don't have air supply to shutterstat, figure out why. Follow air lines to make sure you are checking the input side. The output goes to the shutter cylinder. If you have air on both sides of shutterstat, then the problem is in cylinder, linkage or shutters.
Where is the shutter stat and or what does it look like?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't think shutters are THE problem. The thermostats should keep the engine at minimum 175F. And the thermostats can fail in any position.
I don't have shutters, and the engine always goes up to 180, 185 no matter how cold outside. I think shutters have a benefit only for idling in winter, or driving around town when you're not running hard enough to make enough heat. Modern coaches don't have shutters, they have coolant heaters like Webasto, that maintain operating temperature in slow going.
JC
on my mci even after I rebuilt it and bumped the power to 350 hp if the shutters did not close when it is cold I could never get any heat up front unless you were going up a big hill under load . if the temperature is not cold you never have a problem . I always lubed the system and checked the air lines
dave
Update : got out one of the handyman's secret weapons and sprayed WD40 and lithium grease on the shutter attach points as well as the air piston.
Next I did find the shutter stat, I saw an adjustment handle and did some once the coach was aired up. At first the adjuster was snug tight. I loosened it some and noticed I could no longer move the shutters by hand, and then they shut on my fingers. No biggie, flexible aluminum.
I took it for a drive and sure enough she came up to temp , but then it kept rising. I never let it get above 190-195. Next I adjusted it tight closed again and the temp dropped to 160ish , heading to 145. So I opened it just a smidge and the shutters popped shut this time. I made it home with temp 190-195 and Parker it still scratching my head but about new problems.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My earlier research on the subject of shutters seemed to indicate that one of the reasons for the shutters is to aid in building heat if the OTR heating system is still in place. Since the OTR heat acts like a secondary radiator shedding heat to inside the coach, the closed shutters help keep the engine radiator from also shedding heat in extreme cold conditions. Apparently running the OTR heat and having the airflow into the engine bay will keep the engine at too low a temp. I'm guessing that it has something to do with reducing air flow across the engine and not just across the radiator, since the thermostat can shut off the flow to the radiator when the engine is too cold. The thermostat cannot, however, cut off air flow across the engine bay. At least on the 4108 the engine fan is always spinning, so the shutters are about the only way to keep cold air from entering the engine bay.
Mine are still not fully functional, but it's on my list of things to accomplish once the spring weather creeps up on us. I'm going to sit this winter out.
Quote from: Scott & Heather on November 26, 2017, 08:36:33 AM
Time to get 180°F Tstats. Problem solved
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
in the dead of winter (-20 below or lower) we used 190 degree T-stats.
the metallurgy involved is like Clifford says: If the motor doesn't expand with heat as designed, you are churning,grinding,piston slapping the motor to a slow early demise. :(
Turboes work best with engine at designed full operating tempearture.
With some reflection I'm thinking two things were or are going on.
1) the thermostat is stuck open. It needs to be replaced. I suppose I should thank my lucky stars it did that vs sticking closed on a trip.
2) the shutter stats are maybe working? It seems this is a manual control for extreme cold. This bus is from a northern MN transit company. Or should they automatically open and closes as needed?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: neoneddy on November 26, 2017, 08:58:56 PM
With some reflection I'm thinking two things were or are going on.
1) the thermostat is stuck open. It needs to be replaced. I suppose I should thank my lucky stars it did that vs sticking closed on a trip.
2) the shutter stats are maybe working? It seems this is a manual control for extreme cold. This bus is from a northern MN transit company. Or should they automatically open and closes as needed?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
they should be controlled by a shutterstat. shutterstats seldom go bad perhaps yours did and someone put a shut off there....
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Fimages%2Fi%2F151676152266-0-1%2Fs-l1000.jpg&hash=97aaedef3cfa31d1de3e24dd704c3bf86ec798e1)
Eddy -
My MC-5C still has the original shutters on the radiators, and they've been working fine. I just lubed them a couple of weeks ago, so they're operating even more freely now (not that they were sticking before.)
Anyway, on the roof of the engine compartment, underneath the blowers and to the right of the RH blower discharge, I have a "goodie" (for want of a better term) that has a valve on it fed with air lines. By opening or closing this valve, it either turns the shutters on or off. Default with the shutters "off" puts them in the open position, with the shutters "on" they open and close according to coolant temp, but I haven't found that sensor yet.
Your MC-8 should be very similar to my 5C, so you might try looking for this valve, it's probably in the same general area.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Sorry, have to disagree on the shutters thing. I've had them on both my coaches and they were a pain. They also block some of the much needed air flow needed to cool my 500 hp. My tstats work perfectly to keep my Bus at 180 degrees even when it's below freezing outside. Every single diesel car and truck on the road today uses a thermostat to maintain engine temp....no shutters in front of radiators. To each their own, but I tossed mine and haven't had any issues in 8 years of fulltiming even up north in -22f temps and 20,000 miles a year on the Bus.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Quote from: Scott & Heather on November 27, 2017, 12:24:47 AM
Sorry, have to disagree on the shutters thing. I've had them on both my coaches and they were a pain. They also block some of the much needed air flow needed to cool my 500 hp. My tstats work perfectly to keep my Bus at 180 degrees even when it's below freezing outside. Every single diesel car and truck on the road today uses a thermostat to maintain engine temp....no shutters in front of radiators. To each their own, but I tossed mine and haven't had any issues in 8 years of fulltiming even up north in -22f temps and 20,000 miles a year on the Bus.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
If they don't accomplish anything that the thermostats don't already accomplish, then why are they there? Not like GM or MCI to waste money on unnecessary do-dads. Around here in SE Wisconsin it's quite common to see entire fleets of school buses with their noses covered with snap-op covers during the coldest of winter. Same with fleets of semis.
I'm wondering if you have a different scenario running turbo engines than someone running a more stock setup which doesn't produce as much heat?
500 hp engines are hot even when not running. These coaches were designed with smaller injectors and could run cool in some conditions. Also needed shutters when idling at depots in cooler temps to have heat for interiors. The efficiency of a diesel engine makes the least amount of heat at idle.Anyway, what you prefer for your own use should be fine. Besides, most of us don't use ours in cold temps much.
In original charter use a bus might sit in the parking lot of the ski resort for 6 - 8 hours idling with interior heat on. An idling engine needs a lot of help to keep warm, hence the shutters and dampers would automatically close to help keep things circulating. In original use, being able to warm up quickly to operating temp while idling in a depot or lot was important, so the first passengers of the day had a warm bus to enter. Closed shutters and dampers made this a lot more possible. The bus was designed for very different uses than our typical requirement. I removed my shutters entirely, and wired my dampers full open. I also never run in below freezing temps.
Brian
Quote from: RJ on November 26, 2017, 10:59:05 PM
Eddy -
Anyway, on the roof of the engine compartment, underneath the blowers and to the right of the RH blower discharge, I have a "goodie" (for want of a better term) that has a valve on it fed with air lines. By opening or closing this valve, it either turns the shutters on or off. Default with the shutters "off" puts them in the open position, with the shutters "on" they open and close according to coolant temp, but I haven't found that sensor yet.
Your MC-8 should be very similar to my 5C, so you might try looking for this valve, it's probably in the same general area.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Here is my dingus you describe. So far mine never closed, maybe they would if temps went over 200 but I don't want to get there.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171127/68c024eba767ace78787bcba0c37745b.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: neoneddy on November 26, 2017, 02:29:08 PM
Update : got out one of the handyman's secret weapons and sprayed WD40 and lithium grease on the shutter attach points as well as the air piston.
Next I did find the shutter stat, I saw an adjustment handle and did some once the coach was aired up. At first the adjuster was snug tight. I loosened it some and noticed I could no longer move the shutters by hand, and then they shut on my fingers. No biggie, flexible aluminum.
That is not an adjustment, it is an air valve. Open or shut.
Follow the other lines off the control device, (edit after seeing the picture: follow both lines attached to the control back, the sensor is inline, opens or closes the air line,) the lines that go to the sensor should end in a screwed into a coolant tube somewhere, the other is the air line to the shutters. The temperature sensing part may need some encouragement to function, nothing to lose, open the air lines and see if penetrating oil will help, otherwise, you now know why the air valve was closed, there's something wrong in the controls.
Cold engine and proper air pressure present, the shutters should close. This is a harder time of year to troubleshoot, because gaining hot engine temps to confirm the shutters open is not always easy...
Lubing the shutter fins contact points is folly. The lube will quickly pick up all the dust and dirt that flies through the cavity, and then they jamb up again. If the shutter fins are actually stuck, meaning there is crud in the pivot points, then by all means, use lube to get stuff moving again, and then plan on a good soapy wash so all that dirt just blows on by.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
When running in freezing temperatures my engine runs at 175F but the heater lines going to the interior of the bus cool down quite a bit and the outside cold creeps in. That is when it is time to turn on the Webasto to keep the interior warm.
Shutters are old technology you never see those anymore,they are supposed to close air tight for warm ups in about 1 year you could forget about that.I have a stack of those things from MCI's , FWIW I never saw but 2 Eagle buses with shutters and they didn't work.Now the buses use the diesel fired units on a timer a driver goes out the cabin is nice and comfy and the engine is warm ready to go
The Dodge Ram EcoDiesel and the Chevy Cruise Eco have shutters in 'em?
Aerodynamic purpose and some heat retention.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Nobody has mentioned fan clutches. They are the update to shutters. Wish I had one but the only one I have seen for my particular bus and engine was in a bus at the First Capital Auction in Vallejo, CA. I wasn't going to buy a whole bus just for the fan clutch, although I could of bought the whole bus for the less than the price of a new fan clutch.
Quote from: Scott & Heather on November 27, 2017, 12:24:47 AM
Sorry, have to disagree on the shutters thing. I've had them on both my coaches and they were a pain. They also block some of the much needed air flow needed to cool my 500 hp. My tstats work perfectly to keep my Bus at 180 degrees even when it's below freezing outside. Every single diesel car and truck on the road today uses a thermostat to maintain engine temp....no shutters in front of radiators. To each their own, but I tossed mine and haven't had any issues in 8 years of fulltiming even up north in -22f temps and 20,000 miles a year on the Bus.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
uhmmm. as originally intended, the shutters worked in concert with a fan stat...the fan robs horsepower, adds load to the motor and increases the heat load... i would be finding where i dumped them.. iirc the fan puts a 20+ hp. load on constant... maybe then your 500hp engine would not have as great a heating problem... :)
6-8 hours of idling. I thought that was really bad for our two strokes. I never really idle. But I would imagine it wouldn't reach op temp at idle so maybe the shutters for that.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
My fans don't have a fan stat. They are operated by a belt and pulley off the crank.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Idle all you want?
The real users of our engines, long ago, and far away, would be quite amazed at our "concern"...
Idling is no better to any other engine type with no load... but what else do you do, if there is no alternative?
Not worthy of religious worship, she is no virgin, and she was not intended to be one.
That said, it is a waste of fuel money to idle, there are other ways to keep a busnut warm, and to get the engine to start again in arctic conditions...
so, after idling all night, depending on the engine's current condition, there's going to be an impressive cloud of smoke when you drive away... and perhaps a ways down the road...
Keeping it real, and be-
Happy coaching!
Buswarrior
Quote from: Scott & Heather on November 27, 2017, 11:35:27 AM
My fans don't have a fan stat. They are operated by a belt and pulley off the crank.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Horton makes an air clutched fan drive... you want one :)
I'd love one!! I'd also love a smaller pulley. Hard to keep this beast cool.... (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171128/121be26f73650096e1f46a59f758cf98.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
You could back down the horsepower to 400. Maybe a little slower, but engine will last longer and run cooler.
I mentioned having a Webasto diesel fired coolant heater earlier. It keeps the main engine warm while providing interior heat when parked. But nothing is free, I only have 4 golf cart batteries and the Webasto, the circulating pumps, and the fans use a lot of battery power so I have to run the generator. Maybe 1/3 gallon an hour for the Genny, but better than idling. I love getting up in the morning to a warm coach...
Quote from: Scott & Heather on November 27, 2017, 11:34:22 AM
6-8 hours of idling. I thought that was really bad for our two strokes. I never really idle. But I would imagine it wouldn't reach op temp at idle so maybe the shutters for that.
Scott back in the day truckers used to idle the trucks all night long to be able to go the next day when COLD!
And yes while idling is not good for any engine, it is especially hard on 2 strokes with excessive fuel puddling in the air boxes, but buses have been idling since they started hauling people. Customers want a nice warm or cool bus when they board, so drivers run them while waiting on groups wherever they may be so the coach is comfy for the passengers when they get back on.u
And in freezing temps idling one is much more desirable than having to "heat" one up with a charcoal grill under it (or some other method) in order to get it to fire up.
"And yes as BW states they can, will and do smoke quite a bit when taking off after idling a bit, but that is the price thise behind you have to pay so your enginge can stay comfy!
;D BK ;D
Hence shutters to help keep engine temps up. Also GM used hydraulic fans for this reason.
in the arctic oilfields mission essential and construction equipment runs and idles 24/7 for months.
You pay for it at the pumps.
100's of 1000's of gallons of diesel...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171129/922ec3d354323c9df9977263de0e2766.jpg)
Did some.more reading on the shutter stat, pretty sure this is it. So this little guy is feeding air constantly and never turning off. Sounds like this could be adjusted?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The ones used in GM's aren't adjustable. They use air pressure to close shutters. Shutters should close immediately upon starting cold engine with sufficient air pressure. As pressure in your air system leaks down, they will re open when it gets low enough. As long as coolant is below operating temp. GM shutterstats are calibrated to open louvers at 172 to 174 degrees on 4905's .Shutters rely entirely on air, no electric.
Only the air pressure is adjustable there should be a preset or adjustable regulator at the bottom for the air pressure settings
Funny how things go around, come back. Years ago, all big rig trucks had radiator shutters. Then shutterless cooling came out with better thermostats. Now shutters are coming back since they add to aerodynamics of the truck.
On a bus, a 2 speed fan clutch is best to use. When cold and disconnected, magnetism in the fan clutch keeps the fan turning over slowly to pull in some air. Then when warm, a clutch connects and runs the fan directly.
I have neither shutters nor fan clutch. Granted extra horsepower, but very reliable. Good Luck, TomC
This is an MC9 if it matters, with the shutters closed my temp reached 190-195, they never seemed to open. I didn't want to push the limits of temp.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That thing bolted to the roof of the engine bay is not the shutter stat, it's the air filter, water trap and shut-off valve. On my bus the shutter stat is bolted into the water pipe off the thermostat housing that goes up to the left (drivers side) radiator from the left hand cylinder head. Excuse the picture, it was snowing when I took this 7 years ago almost to the day (7 years and two days, to be exact. How time flies.) The shutterstat is the small (1" diameter, 2" long) brass dealie with the silver top sticking out the side of the water pipe just above the exhaust pipe, to the left of the fan belt. It has two air lines connected to it, one feed line from the aforementioned filter, and one output line that goes to all the damper and shutter air cylinders. It should open at 170 degrees. That one is brand new at the time, I got it from Luke.