How many people carry a good spare tire in your bus and how many have the ability, tools, and skills to change it yourself on the road? Even if you can't change your own, there are advantages in carrying one for someone else to change rather than having to pay scalpers rates to buy a new tire whilst on the road.
i do. but not a jack :)
outside duals are all i do.
then, only after i call roadside and they are 4 hours away and i have no beer..
In the past, up to two weeks ago, I just carried a tire. When I called CoachNet with flat they advised me they didn't cover mounting a tire, just changing a wheel and road service. So, I have purchased a wheel. I also have a 20 ton air/hydraulic jack, 1 inch impack wrench, set of sockets, a pull bar and a pipe. I plan to test run changing a wheel at home and see what else I need. I don't what to change a wheel by myself on the side of the road, but I intend to be equipped to do so if needed.
Art
I never carried a spare until the last couple of years. Just because I had the tire the right size, so might as well carry it, sans the wheel. But I've never needed it. Bus tires just don't go flat very often at all. If they are good newer tires, and you keep checking for proper inflation, and stay off the curbs, statistics say that you will drive at least a life time before one goes flat. I've driven buses and trucks all my life, and flats or blow outs are very rare, like I can count them on one hand. I do carry all the tools for changing one on the side of the road if I had to, like if Coach Net is hours away. If you remove the wheels for maintenance in the winter, you know you can do it anytime if needed. So if you've got the space for a spare, and it makes you feel better, carry one for sure. And the advantage would be that you don't have to look for a new overpriced one if needed.
JC
I have insurance. I don't even carry a spare for the toad :o With that said, I do have all the tools and no-how to change the tires on the bus as I did my own tire swaps when I replaced the last set of rubber. I learned at that time that I didn't have a torque wrench that clicked on left-hand threads. Along with my torque multiplier and NEW dual direction torque wrench, all I need is a cell phone. There's always cold beer in the fridge and NO that is NOT an open invitation to all you busnuts out there! ;D
I made a mount for my spare tire under the nose of the bus, using a worm-drive 2000 lb. winch from Harbor Fright and a home-made folding dolly that allows me to easily move the wheel out from under the bus. I also have a 40"-long 1"-drive breaker bar, a Budd socket and an extension for the rear wheels, and an auxiliary 120 VAC air compressor plumbed into the bus's accessories system with three air outlets around the bus for inflating tires and running air tools. For the heavy lifting I have four bottle jacks: two 20-ton, a 12-ton and a low 12-ton, and several lengths of 6" x 8" pine and two squares of thick steel plate. I also have Good Sam, but maybe they won't always be available, hence my own Plan B. As the Scouts say, Be Prepared.
John
I carry a 9.00-20 with tube, not mounted. Had a flat this summer, once the tire guy showed up he had the tire mounted on the old split rim in less than 10 min.
Matt
I have never carried a spare and I never needed one but with the heavy 45 ft bus I am considering carrying one
I have carried one with me since I bought the bus in 05 and never used it, so now I'm going to remove it and place a generator in it's place. I figure if I need one bad enough I could take one off the tag and chain the tag up to get me to a shop for a repair. I do carry the tools and jacks to do it myself but I also have coach-net that I would call first.
Jason
We carry a spare for several reasons:
- Won't have to buy a new tire at an exorbitant rate while on the road.
- Additional weight on the front axle to help crosswind stability.
- Some additional front end collision protection.
That's what works for us. And, yes, I do have the tools to change it myself if necessary.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Since most of us use 1200xr22.5 or 315x80x22.5 tires, I would think it prudent to carry a spare. Although I haven't actually checked, I doubt that most places coming to repair a flat have that size available quickly. They mostly carry the trucker sizes. The size we use is also going to be a premium in price since it isn't common out on the road in an emergency. Personally, if you run a bus conversion, you should be able to change your own tire if necessary. If you are too old or handicapped, make sure the wife can do it. (With your supervision of course)
Quote from: chessie4905 on November 25, 2017, 05:01:04 AM
Since most of us use 1200xr22.5 or 315x80x22.5 tires, I would think it prudent to carry a spare. Although I haven't actually checked, I doubt that most places coming to repair a flat have that size available quickly. They mostly carry the trucker sizes. The size we use is also going to be a premium in price since it isn't common out on the road in an emergency. Personally, if you run a bus conversion, you should be able to change your own tire if necessary. If you are too old or handicapped, make sure the wife can do it. (With your supervision of course)
Most OTR trucks are now running 12R22.5. Wasn't that way 20 years ago, but it's changed.
Yes, I carry a spare and all the tools and knowledge needed to change it myself. Have never needed to do so on the road.
I carry a spare because the bus came with one. My bus has a spare tire winch like many pickups have these days. My spare is a brand new tire from 1997. I don't trust it to take me far as it has deep cracks. This past year I also carried an unmounted tire that came off the front of the bus.
I hit something and blew out a sidewall in Utah. I have all the tools to change a tire and we were able to install the spare tire in about three hours. We stopped at a Loves truck stop and the shop there mounted my unmounted tire to replace the bad tire. We ran on the old cracked spare longer than we probably should have.
If you are running 24.5's I would suggest carrying a spare they are getting hard to find on the road
I had a flat last time out,,,or I say flat,,,cause it was completely GONE,,,as only the wheel left on the toad.. Left rear and cost me $104.00 for the tire installed by Coach Net ( 40 minutes and down the road..>>>Dan)
We always carried a good spare tire behind the bumper and changed it a few times in almost 40 years of road tripping with the bus.
I've been carrying a mounted spare for 15+ years along with the tools to change a tire. I never have needed it. The tire was used when I bought it, so I don't know how long it would hold up. I am on the lookout for a newer spare but have had no luck. It sure takes up a lot of space and is heavy.
Speaking of carrying the heavy @$# impact gun I saw a tire guy changing a flat tire on a bus with a cordless impact gun. I never knew those guns could produce enough torque to remove and replace the lug nuts on a bus or truck
I used a 1/2 inch Ingersoll Rand air gun, it worked just fine for taking off the lug nuts. :)
Quote from: Ed Hackenbruch on November 25, 2017, 07:11:59 AM
I used a 1/2 inch Ingersoll Rand air gun, it worked just fine for taking off the lug nuts. :)
A 1/2 inch drive I/R is all I ever used for years
Didn't realize a 1/2" pneumatic would do the bus lugs. I have heard of the higher voltage (24+) being able to do the task. We been carrying a 3/4" Chicago Pneumatic forever. It does a lot more than just the lug nuts. Its got (also the bus) the electric portable compressor to back it up... We're just full of air! Haha
Because of the weight of the rim, when I find a new spare, I think I will just carry my tire irons and slide hammer and carry the spare unmounted. I bought the above a couple of years ago when the tire shop wanted $100 apiece to mount the new tires for my bus. The ties are not that hard to mount. Plus road service can do it if I'm not up to the task.
Quote from: Geoff on November 25, 2017, 07:53:46 AMBecause of the weight of the rim, when I find a new spare, I think I will just carry my tire irons and slide hammer and carry the spare unmounted. I bought the above a couple of years ago when the tire shop wanted $100 apiece to mount the new tires for my bus. The ties are not that hard to mount. Plus road service can do it if I'm not up to the task.
That brings up a point of ignorance on my part, Geoff -- maybe you can give me a little info. I keep a mounted, balance spare in my car -- I think I've used it once in 15 years and 450,000 miles and that was because I had a piece of broken spring in a tire on the ground; it was holding air OK (going down from 34 to 24 pounds overnight) and I could have aired it up and driven to the tire shop for a $6 clean and plug but I felt better putting the dependable spare down for that. On any motorcycle, if I had a flat on the road, I fixed it with tube and tools I carried but I balanced it ASAconvenient.
If you're changing a tire on the side of the road (or paying/using FMCA or Coach-Net) -- or mounting new tires in your shop, how much does balance come into consideration? Like most other things, things are different of Heavy-duty equipment versus the light-vehicle items I'm more familiar with.
Thanks for your help on this, BH
There are many instances of professional tire guys being crushed to death changing a tire on the side of the road. I drove truck for 21 years, sold trucks for 15 years, now retired. I would never change a tire myself. Too heavy a vehicle to play with.
Roadside service trucks are everywhere. Have a flat-call one of them. Then you don't have to carry an extra tire, rim, wrenches and hydraulic jacks. Perhaps the only place I would carry a spare is going to remote parts of Canada or Alaska. Good Luck, TomC
I don't plan on carrying a spare. IF I do carry tools for the job and IF I feel the need to put my back out, I would just single out one of the drive wheels to any position I need to get me to a service station to repair/replace the bad tire. IF not then like Tom says, a simple phone call will do it, which will probably be what happens.
I carry a spare because my bus came with one (and a winch to lift it), and a bottle jack and wheel brace. The jack especially is adequate but no more, just like the OEM jacks you get with a car. I've changed an outer dual myself with no issues but would be nervous about attempting to change a front wheel or inner dual on the side of the road
Jeremy
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on November 25, 2017, 08:14:50 AM
That brings up a point of ignorance on my part, Geoff -- maybe you can give me a little info. I keep a mounted, balance spare in my car -- I think I've used it once in 15 years and 450,000 miles and that was because I had a piece of broken spring in a tire on the ground; it was holding air OK (going down from 34 to 24 pounds overnight) and I could have aired it up and driven to the tire shop for a $6 clean and plug but I felt better putting the dependable spare down for that. On any motorcycle, if I had a flat on the road, I fixed it with tube and tools I carried but I balanced it ASAconvenient.
If you're changing a tire on the side of the road (or paying/using FMCA or Coach-Net) -- or mounting new tires in your shop, how much does balance come into consideration? Like most other things, things are different of Heavy-duty equipment versus the light-vehicle items I'm more familiar with.
Thanks for your help on this, BH
The general consensus on big truck and bus wheels is that they don't need to be balanced. I have run my bus 90mph on unbalanced tires and never noticed any wheel bounce. People do balance them, but alot don't.
Everyone should at least carry an unmounted tire. If you damage a tire beyond repair the road guys will gouge big time for a new tire. And while I am willing to change a tire myself, it would have to be parked safely.
So many opinions, nice. Means I can do whatever and be in agreement with at least someone. LOL
I'm carrying a spare and don't see any logic or reason not to have one ready to swap if required. Just seems it minimizes delays, mixups, costs, etc. while on the road. If that space was needed for some other use, then one needs to weigh out the pros/cons.
UPDATE
I looked on Craigslist and found 6 used 315 80r 22.5 tires, the size I use. I'm going to look at them this afternoon
They have tread, but I need to look at the date code and for cracks
Okay, I looked at the tires and they were Michelin XZA tires with 3/4 of the thread left, no cracks or plugs, came off a Prevost. Nine years old, better than what I had, so I bought one for a hundred bucks. Good enough for a spare.
--Geoff
All the above are valid, me I will use the cell phone and get a service person. By the time I need the spare it is out of date. I have had my bus for 16 years and have only lost the tread on one tire, 13 year old tire. I am to old to change a tire so I will pay the price. My 2 cents worth.
ED
I carry a mounted spare. To me it's not much different than all of the other spare parts I carry in case they're needed.
I figure finding someone to change the tire will almost always be possible. Finding the right tire may not.
Richard
1974 GMC P8M4108A-125 (Current bus)
1964 GM PD4106-2412 (totalled Sept 2017)
Located in beautiful Wisconsin
KD9GRB
Quote from: Geoff on November 25, 2017, 10:04:41 AM
The general consensus on big truck and bus wheels is that they don't need to be balanced. I have run my bus 90mph on unbalanced tires and never noticed any wheel bounce. People do balance them, but alot don't.
Each ounce of balance weight required for a 22.5 tire is equal to 6 lbs of force hitting the ground each time that tire rotates. Larger diameter and wide tires that amount goes up. Balancing on bus and truck tires not required? For most fleets it is really a head in the sand outlook IMHO. They may justify it by saying their tire history shows their tires last 60,000 miles so balancing would be a cost and not improve the bottom line. Justified...possibly but at the cost of today's tires I find it difficult to agree.
BTW an out of balance tire will USUALLY only give you a vibration from 56 (ish)MPH to 64 (ish)MPH. Vibration in the 45-55 MPH is USUALLY a driveline issue. Balancing is somewhat of a parasitic event. You may not feel it but it can show up in tire cupping, premature u joint failures, even body panel rivets/hinges/fasteners in time coming loose. So you may not even feel a wheel out of balance but just because you can't feel it, doesn't mean it is not a problem. Ever hear of a semi trailer fire because of an unnoticed flat tire lit up? You would think you would feel a flat before it starts on fire don't you.
Just my opinion tho.
I have two spares:
One:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171126/c10f3e2a3bb510a42412c04ae7fbf835.jpg)
And two:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171126/85bd4b060ed0d64d37957ec7f77a26f5.jpg)
As someone already mentioned. Lift the tags, chain 'em up, and swap 'em out. Done done and done.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I have everything on hand to change a tire - That way, I have more options in the event a tire needs changing. Since we still work, down time on the road is very costly, so if I can change the tire & save several hours - I'll do it.
However, I have road service & a cell phone & they are my first tool of choice. ;D
My toad is a full size pickup which is where I will carry my spare. When I don't take the toad, I can always use Scott's method. 8)
This is quite handy in stabilizing the wrench head when using a long pull handle. . . . .
Quote from: Jim Eh. on November 25, 2017, 03:07:56 PM
Each ounce of balance weight required for a 22.5 tire is equal to 6 lbs of force hitting the ground each time that tire rotates. Larger diameter and wide tires that amount goes up. Balancing on bus and truck tires not required? For most fleets it is really a head in the sand outlook IMHO. They may justify it by saying their tire history shows their tires last 60,000 miles so balancing would be a cost and not improve the bottom line. Justified...possibly but at the cost of today's tires I find it difficult to agree.
BTW an out of balance tire will USUALLY only give you a vibration from 56 (ish)MPH to 64 (ish)MPH. Vibration in the 45-55 MPH is USUALLY a driveline issue. Balancing is somewhat of a parasitic event. You may not feel it but it can show up in tire cupping, premature u joint failures, even body panel rivets/hinges/fasteners in time coming loose. So you may not even feel a wheel out of balance but just because you can't feel it, doesn't mean it is not a problem. Ever hear of a semi trailer fire because of an unnoticed flat tire lit up? You would think you would feel a flat before it starts on fire don't you.
Just my opinion tho.
A 315 80r 22.5 tire weighs approximately 140 pounds, without the rim. I think your opinions are based on car tires.
Quote from: kyle4501 on November 25, 2017, 04:58:46 PM
This is quite handy in stabilizing the wrench head when using a long pull handle. . . . .
i use a jackstand.
Quote from: Geoff on November 25, 2017, 05:31:47 PM
A 315 80r 22.5 tire weighs approximately 140 pounds, without the rim. I think your opinions are based on car tires.
The math : Centripetal force = (mass x velocity squared) / radius
So, after a quick number crunch (if I made no mistakes :o ) 1 ounce at the tread is about 6 pounds of force at highway speeds.
Velocity has the biggest impact on the centripetal force, BUT speed is generally governed by traffic flow, so not a whole lot I'm gonna be able to do about that . . . . usually. . . . .
Double the weight, double the force -- Now, this is something I can do something about. 8)
With a 140# tire, I would definitely want to check the balance.
I had the opportunity to take my pick of tires one time - about 1 in 4 of the Michellin 11R24.5 tires needed no weight to be balanced. The ones that needed weight didn't need much (relative to the cheap tires)
I have never balanced a good bus or truck tire most of the time the tire is not the problem anyway the old 2 piece welded steel wheels or the drum is out of balance, that is where a good balancing system is ideal it balances the drum and wheel
From my limited experience, proper tire inflation has the biggest positive impact.
As for me, mechanically balancing the tires is more about the theory and my engineering background.
Quote from: Geoff on November 25, 2017, 05:31:47 PM
A 315 80r 22.5 tire weighs approximately 140 pounds, without the rim. I think your opinions are based on car tires.
Nope. 22.5 by 10.00 actually. But as I said it would vary with different tire diameters and widths. Automotive tires have much less mass and would never reach 6 lbs of kenetic force.
Quote from: luvrbus on November 26, 2017, 07:50:16 AM
I have never balanced a good bus or truck tire most of the time the tire is not the problem anyway the old 2 piece welded steel wheels or the drum is out of balance, that is where a good balancing system is ideal it balances the drum and wheel
Good manufacturers are making tires now that are pretty well balanced when leaving the factory. You are correct, though, regarding the wheel and drum.
When searching for new wheels for my steer axle a couple years ago to replace a couple cracked ones, I initially ended up with some wheels made in China and Vietnam. They were being passed off as Accuride. The tires were mounted up on them, and they required about 16 ounces to balance them! I then figured out these were not Accuride wheels and returned them and found the proper ones. Ended up putting new Toyo's on them and they required minimal weight to balance mechanically. I run Centrimatics on my steer and drive axle to dynamically balance the rest of the assembly. Works well. On the tag I use a different dynamic balancing material inside the tire, which I don't discuss because too many people on here are too judgmental.
Quote from: luvrbus on November 25, 2017, 05:29:07 AM
If you are running 24.5's I would suggest carrying a spare they are getting hard to find on the road
Yes, indeed, that is why I carry two mounted 24.5 spares with the Alcoa's polished on both sides so they can go anywhere. I think robbing the tags/bogies for spares is taking chances with overloading the drive axle, depending on the gross weight of the vehicle. If you chain up one side, the bus will not be balanced very evenly. I've done it on dump trailers before to get the vehicle back home, but only when unloaded.
I have never had a problem finding 24.5's on the road and I drive my coach 20,000 miles a year some years. Some trucks are still running those tires, so I've never had issues. I don't have room for a spare. Every one of my tires is less than a year old so I'm banking on just using tags for spares to get off the hwy to a tire shop.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I'm with Scott, I run 22.5s but would only run with the tag chained up just to get to the tire shop or safely off the highway.
Jason
Quote from: luvrbus on November 25, 2017, 06:37:05 AM
Speaking of carrying the heavy @$# impact gun I saw a tire guy changing a flat tire on a bus with a cordless impact gun. I never knew those guns could produce enough torque to remove and replace the lug nuts on a bus or truck
I bought a Makita 3/4" battery impact wrench specifically to remove lug nuts on my bus. It won't even budge one even thought it has something like 1,250 foot pounds of torque. It could be that my lug nuts have been overtightened.
Just like on a car, lug nuts take more to break loose if they haven't been touched for a long time.Rust, and salt corrosion adds to this. Many times, the torque ratings on impact wrenches are suspect. If you want to count on an electric or smaller air impact out on the road, carry a quality 3/4 or 1 inch breaker bar with quality regular socket or impact socket, 3/4 or 1 inch x 12 inch extension, and a 4 to 5 foot piece of pipe that will slip over handle to break loose any pesky ones. You will also need some type of support for extension used on rear wheels.
Anti seize compound is our friend.
Richard
1974 GMC P8M4108A-125 (Current bus)
1964 GM PD4106-2412 (totalled Sept 2017)
Located in beautiful Wisconsin
KD9GRB
Quote from: richard5933 on November 28, 2017, 03:49:37 AM
Anti seize compound is our friend.
Richard
1974 GMC P8M4108A-125 (Current bus)
1964 GM PD4106-2412 (totalled Sept 2017)
Located in beautiful Wisconsin
KD9GRB
This will get it going ;D it is my friend also Richard
I use WD-40 on wheel studs. NeverSieze is messy.
Quote from: kyle4501 on November 25, 2017, 04:58:46 PM
This is quite handy in stabilizing the wrench head when using a long pull handle. . . . .
OK, THAT wrench tree is a bloody good idea! I'm going to make me one of those! In terms of the general thread, I do all of my own wheel changing, I have all of the tools needed, and I carry an old "get off the road" spare. I would not hesitate to get stuck in to changing a tire either, the bigger the tire the easier it is to get off, once you pop the bead off. In my shop, mind you, for the first time at least! I use antiseize also, on the threads only, not the ball seat. My friend the licensed mechanic and tire dealer told me he would lose his license if caught using antiseize (in Ontario, CAN) or not using a currently certified torque wrench for final tightening. There was a real spate of trucks losing wheels a decade or more ago, and the laws got pretty tight in response.
I will stay off the lube/not lube subject...
But I have seen tire shops put on lug nuts with a 1" impact as tight as it will go, then go around with a torque wrench and check them. The wrench clicks, the nuts don't move because they were over tightened with the gun, so they think it is all good because it tells them they're at least 450 lb, or whatever the wrench was set at. So it must be the right way... ! That is why I do my own, and will do as long as I am able.
JC
Quote from: bevans6 on November 28, 2017, 06:32:38 AM
OK, THAT wrench tree is a bloody good idea! I'm going to make me one of those! In terms of the general thread, I do all of my own wheel changing, I have all of the tools needed, and I carry an old "get off the road" spare. I would not hesitate to get stuck in to changing a tire either, the bigger the tire the easier it is to get off, once you pop the bead off. In my shop, mind you, for the first time at least! I use antiseize also, on the threads only, not the ball seat. My friend the licensed mechanic and tire dealer told me he would lose his license if caught using antiseize (in Ontario, CAN) or not using a currently certified torque wrench for final tightening. There was a real spate of trucks losing wheels a decade or more ago, and the laws got pretty tight in response.
I use never seize on the ball seats of my Alcoa's brush it on wipe it clean sure saves on the steel nut peeling away the aluminum on the $ 400.00 wheel
Ok, let's get into it....
Don't use neverseize on wheel tightening parts. One it collects dirt over time and causes thread wear over time. Those are fine threads and any dirt/ antiseize residue packing in the root of thread is going to cause breakdown over time. Two, the torque specs are for clean, dry threads on fasteners. With any kind of lube on those threads you will be over tightening the fasteners by a significant amount. C, inspect your studs and nuts. After many years many need replaced from wear, especially if you experience a stripped or pulled threads on std or nuts.
Quote from: chessie4905 on November 28, 2017, 09:53:57 AM
Ok, let's get into it....
Don't use neverseize on wheel tightening parts. ...
That is somewhat of a different opinion from the techs at the shop here in Milwaukee. The mechanic working on our bus has been doing so for decades, and he informed me that it's necessary to use some type of anti seize compound and that they do so on all the vehicles they work on. Maybe it has something to do with the harsh winters and the amount of road salt used up here?
Like I said before, I use WD-40. It dries out, and avoids seizing a lug nut on the threads from a total lack of lubrication. I would never put a rusty nut on a rusty stud. I have had to cut stripped truck nuts with a cutting torch several times.
There's enough alloy in those grade 8 bolts and nuts to avoid rust. Look it up on Alcoa or other Wheel site or GM shop manual, or HD truck sites.
Quote from: chessie4905 on November 28, 2017, 12:53:52 PM
There's enough alloy in those grade 8 bolts and nuts to avoid rust. Look it up on Alcoa or other Wheel site or GM shop manual, or HD truck sites.
They will rust I cut many off because of rust or they will twist off with a 1 inch gun
Quote from: chessie4905 on November 28, 2017, 12:53:52 PM
There's enough alloy in those grade 8 bolts and nuts to avoid rust. Look it up on Alcoa or other Wheel site or GM shop manual, or HD truck sites.
Wheel studs are not grade 8. Some nuts may be, but not all are. They will rust.
The reason Torque specs are for clean, dry threads is because it is the most consistent & predictable way to achieve the required clamping force.
Lubrication creates inconsistent results - SO - if you use lubrication and don't reduce the torque, you run the risk of stretching the studs and crushing the ball seat in the stud piloted wheel.
There is a reason wheel nut chamfer gauges exist . . . .
I have seen wheels that were loose, but the nuts were tight. . . .
Gumpy, check the Euclid wheel attaching parts catalog. All of their studs are grade 8. They list the nuts as "thoroughly hardened" so they probably less, maybe a grade 5 or 6. Maybe MCI's and Eagles use hardware grade fasteners to save money.;-)
Quote from: chessie4905 on November 28, 2017, 04:59:24 PM
Gumpy, check the Euclid wheel attaching parts catalog. All of their studs are grade 8. They list the nuts as "thoroughly hardened" so they probably less, maybe a grade 5 or 6. Maybe MCI's and Eagles use hardware grade fasteners to save money.;-)
Makes no difference grade 8 bolts rust because they are made from medium carbon alloy steel and carbon steel rusts ask any Eagle owner ;D
I would say that if you run in salty conditions you need some Never-Seize of the appropriate amount. I used to cut the Never-Seize with gear oil 50-50 for use on dump trucks that were hauling road salt year-round. Not only was it used on the studs, it was used where the wheel contacted the drum because the rust could weld the wheel on. It would take a lot of whacking with a twenty pound sledge to break the wheel loose if we did not use it. At the other extreme, if you use too much Never-Seize on a thread that is not exposed to salt, a strong impact wrench can screw the nut down until the class 8 bolt snaps. For normal conditions, it is probably best to not use lube if you expect to get an accurate torque setting, but don't leave them undisturbed for years. The tire jockey's that torque away to the max quite often forget that aluminum wheels can't handle the torque that a steel wheel can, especially for the stud-centered wheels that can crack between the studs.
I'd swear that the salt they use in Pa. could cause the best stainless steel to rust. Several years ago I built up a T tag dump truck and added dual wheels with brand new studs and plated new lug nuts. Didn't get truck cleaned up from hauling coal one winter till late summer. That salt rusted lug nuts through plating and had to clean and redetail studs, nuts and frame. That stuff is wicked. Lots of issues with Semis with rust jacking off brake lining off shoes. They have now developed special coatings to help avoid problems, including lug nuts.
I just put 8 new tires on the back of my truck. The truck has been sitting and also being converted. The old tires were 18 years old. With Neverseize on all the nuts and bolts (I have Budd type two piece ball centering), none of the 80 got stuck. I made sure the threads were re coated again when they put the new tires on. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on November 29, 2017, 06:33:43 AM
I just put 8 new tires on the back of my truck. The truck has been sitting and also being converted. The old tires were 18 years old. With Neverseize on all the nuts and bolts (I have Budd type two piece ball centering), none of the 80 got stuck. I made sure the threads were re coated again when they put the new tires on. Good Luck, TomC
Umm with duals on each hub wouldn't that only be 40?
;D BK ;D
I disagree with the the dry torque method being the most accurate and consistent way to torque a bolt ,if that was the case DD,Cat and Cummins got wrong from the beginning.Tightening aluminum wheels with steel nuts just eats the sockets up on a aluminum wheels it does on a steel wheel too with out a little lube,the hub centered wheels call for lube on the stud, nut and washer fwiw.BK inner nuts also on TomC's truck it is tandem too with the front it should be 100
Quote from: B_K on November 29, 2017, 06:48:50 AM
Umm with duals on each hub wouldn't that only be 40?
;D BK ;D
Budd wheels so a cone (inner) and a nut per position, total 20 per wheel.
Brian
Quote from: DoubleEagle on November 28, 2017, 07:38:21 PM
I would say that if you run in salty conditions you need some Never-Seize of the appropriate amount.
Regarding using Never-Seize on your lug nuts, there is a separate thread for that which you all may be interested in. If you have comments regarding putting this messy stuff on your lug nuts, ;D please reply to the appropriate thread. :-)
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3536.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3536.0)
There's currently only one manufacturer of a totally rust proof stainless steel, and wholesale price is just over $20. per ounce. rdw
Quote from: Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM on November 29, 2017, 10:48:10 AM
Regarding using Never-Seize on your lug nuts, there is a separate thread for that which you all may be interested in. If you have comments regarding putting this messy stuff on your lug nuts, ;D please reply to the appropriate thread. :-)
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3536.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3536.0)
Drifting along with the tumbling tumble-thread! ::)
Quote from: chessie4905 on November 29, 2017, 03:49:26 AM
I'd swear that the salt they use in Pa. could cause the best stainless steel to rust. Several years ago I built up a T tag dump truck and added dual wheels with brand new studs and plated new lug nuts. Didn't get truck cleaned up from hauling coal one winter till late summer. That salt rusted lug nuts through plating and had to clean and redetail studs, nuts and frame. That stuff is wicked. Lots of issues with Semis with rust jacking off brake lining off shoes. They have now developed special coatings to help avoid problems, including lug nuts.
The company I got my salt from was International Salt Co. in PA, and my trucks and loaders and conveyor belts were in it year round. That's why I bought 6-8 lb. cans of Never-Sieze. They even sold it in 55 Gal. barrels, but that was thousands of dollars.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on November 29, 2017, 02:44:47 PM
The company I got my salt from was International Salt Co. in PA, and my trucks and loaders and conveyor belts were in it year round. That's why I bought 6-8 lb. cans of Never-Sieze. They even sold it in 55 Gal. barrels, but that was thousands of dollars.
Walter I saw a drum at Graingers it was only $17,750.00 plus tax :o
Quote from: luvrbus on November 29, 2017, 03:28:04 PM
Walter I saw a drum at Graingers it was only $17,750.00 plus tax :o
Yeah, but you have to remember, a little bit goes on FOREVER!!!
Quote from: luvrbus on November 29, 2017, 06:59:06 AM
I disagree with the the dry torque method being the most accurate and consistent way to torque a bolt ,
To be a little more clear, we used strain gauges & load cells to measure the resulting stud tension & clamping force to verify dry torque on CLEAN, DRY THREADS is more consistent - However, if the threads aren't clean & dry, all bets are off.
If you are going to use lube, you really need to understand what you are doing - otherwise, you may end up converting good parts into junk.
I do believe hub piloted wheels are more consistent & less sensitive to lubrication issues than stud piloted.
From the Alcoa service manual --Stud Located, Ball Seat Mounting System
It is recommended to torque to between 450 and 500 foot-pounds. If lubricated with motor oil,
torque should be between 350 and 400 foot-pounds. Note: when dualing steel wheels with Alcoa
aluminum wheels, follow the steel wheel manufacturer's recommendations regarding the proper
torque and use of thread lubricants to mount the wheel.
WARNING Application of lubricant to the ball seats can cause excessive torque.
Over torque can stretch studs, causing them to fail.
Overtorquing can lead to wheel disengagement, causing serious injury or death.
Do not allow oil to contact ball seats or mounting surfaces of the wheel, hub or
drum. Do not use aerosol cans for lubrication of stud threads.
Quote from: luvrbus on November 29, 2017, 03:28:04 PM
Walter I saw a drum at Graingers it was only $17,750.00 plus tax :o
Yikes! It was much cheaper 32 years ago, but we still thinned it with gear oil to make it go farther.
I have this for applications I don't want the aluminum neverseize for. I also have a copper type neverseize for some uses also. Once the regular lum is used up I'll use the ss.
https://www.mcmaster.com/#stainless-steel-antiseize-lubricants/=1ah8u67 (https://www.mcmaster.com/#stainless-steel-antiseize-lubricants/=1ah8u67)
The ss type is definitely less messy, less smeary.
Man those prices are extreme for never seize I pay less than 30 bucks for a 1 lb can from a local welding shop for any type
I'd imagine most buy theirs from NAPA or another auto parts store.
What I remember most about Never Sieze in using it through my career is this perfect example: I havent used any in a month or touch the container, But after reading the many great post I now need a paper towell!
Now honestly does this sound familar ;D Lol
Good day
Floyd
Nowhere it torque more critical than building an aluminum engine. Neverseize on fastner threads is an absolute must!
As far as stud piloted wheel nuts/studs go...personally after removal I give the threads a coating of diesel fuel for awhile then wire brush them. It leaves just enough film to give an accurate torque, is less messy, readily available, and cheap. I do put a drop of oil on a hub piloted nut washer and give it a turn or two to work it in but usually nothing on the threads.
Poor Gary, he tried to correct course but to no avail. This talk about spare tires and torque specs, what exactly even is torque? Is it the clamping Force? If so, I don't see how that changes with lube, ft lbs are ft lbs so if you are using a torque wrench to tighten, then lube or no lube doesn't affect that. If you're spinning them on with an impact and then torquing down, then don't spin them on tight at all. Just enough to seat them a little. There's no way I wouldn't use anti seize on any of my studs truck or Bus. The stuff is awesome and keeps things from seizing up and causing more problems. I'm in the "put it on" camp. And if you have to change a spare tire on the road, you'll be really glad you used it. How's that for keeping it on track gary? 👍🏽
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When using a torque wrench, some of the torque applied stretches the bolt, and some torque goes to overcoming the high level of friction of the treads between the nut and bolt, the bolt face and wheel also contribute to the friction. Now apply lube and the torque to overcome the friction is less, and more torque goes to stretching the bolt. It is the tension in the strechted bolt that applies the clamping force, not the torque of the nut.
Matt
Right on Matt. 8) 8)>>>Dan
Well, if this thread did anything, it got me to buy a new spare tire. I removed the 15+ year old spare, and mounted the 9 year old spare using my truck tire tools. Took the old tire to the County tire disposal site and it cost me $8 to dump the tire. Michelin dealer wanted $50ea to dispose my old tires when I bought new ones a couple of years back.
You guys ever notice the inside dual with the smaller studs the nut torques the same with a outer nut torquing the same and then the same amount as a front wheel with the larger stud
Quote from: luvrbus on November 30, 2017, 01:16:03 PM
You guys ever notice the inside dual with the smaller studs the nut torques the same with a outer nut torquing the same and then the same amount as a front wheel with the larger stud
Yes, I have a impact socket that does it all using my 3/4" CP air gun. I hate to remove wheels that we're put on with a 1" air gun. Torque wrench?
Btw, I have changed my own tires before on the coach. Two summers ago. I bought new tires cheap at a truck tire place and brought them to my coach and actually pulled wheels, deflated the tires, popped the old tires off and the new ones on using a lot of tire "soap" the lube in the 5 gal pail. Had to lube the daylights out of the rim and tire and use huge tire irons and threw the tire while leveraging it off the rim. It was in Texas and it was 95°F and frankly I was so sore afterwards and hated the process so much, I vowed to always pay to have it done from then on. So far, I've lived up to my vow. Take note of that last photo.i borrowed his tools and his heft to make this happen. I do think everyone should do it once to appreciate how much work it is. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/dba451c7d11fa12cb109326044fa028d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/cca03cea41da812fcf9ac52062574da2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/d09e3e48b9786a25480de12eea609205.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/530fd7d2f4215f2c2740abbf5196db12.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/fadfaa3d95f9aaea4514a8ccfb4df67f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/b5983474e3c1a427e378e0b700b442cd.jpg)
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Quote from: luvrbus on November 24, 2017, 07:33:28 PM
I have never carried a spare and I never needed one but with the heavy 45 ft bus I am considering carrying one
Clifford. You probably know this already. But there was a fully mounted spare behind the front bumper.
Quote from: John316 on November 30, 2017, 01:52:32 PM
Clifford. You probably know this already. But there was a fully mounted spare behind the front bumper.
Not any longer once I got the heavy sucker out no way was I putting it back ;D,I have Alcoa wheels and Kanes covers on it now looks pretty good
Quote from: Scott & Heather on November 30, 2017, 01:47:26 PM... Take note of that last photo.i borrowed his tools and his heft to make this happen. ...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171130/b5983474e3c1a427e378e0b700b442cd.jpg)
Wow, Scott. That's got to be a 6' lever arm and over 250 pounds of force! Did you really need 1500 pounds of torque to break the nuts loose? If I had, I would be checking all the studs for stretching and cracking. You're scaring me here.
And that appears to be after taking the hot wrench to it!
The springiness of the pipe and probably the breaker bar absorbs a lot of the torque. Use a 1 inch drive breaker bar, proper impact socket, and stiffer pipe, and it'll come loose a lot easier. Btdt.
Lol. Those ones were hard as heck to get loose. That's why I believe in antiseize. I don't own that bus anymore. Its someone else's baby now.
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Does NeverSieze work when the lug nuts are gunned on to 1,000 ft lbs?
QuoteWow, Scott. That's got to be a 6' lever arm and over 250 pounds of force! Did you really need 1500 pounds of torque to break the nuts loose? If I had, I would be checking all the studs for stretching and cracking. You're scaring me here.
That is totally insane and blows my plan on using a 3ft breaker bar to get the lug nuts loose at around 450 lbs. Figured 150-200 pounds on a 3 ft bar would be plenty. Maybe have to go with the torque multiplier wrench.
LOL that may not be 450 lbs tire guys hammer on the front studs with steel wheels 450 lbs is nothing for a 1-1/8th inch stud they will go 1500 ft lbs if the wheel doesn't break.The drive axle is a different story the 3/4in studs are at their limit at 450 lbs and break fairly easy
Quote from: windtrader on November 30, 2017, 08:10:38 PM
That is totally insane and blows my plan on using a 3ft breaker bar to get the lug nuts loose at around 450 lbs. Figured 150-200 pounds on a 3 ft bar would be plenty. Maybe have to go with the torque multiplier wrench.
I've used the torque multiplier several times on bus/truck or even RV lug nuts. You need a helper to hold the socket in place since you still have to use a cheater bar and to move the socket to the next lug. One time, on a bus front wheel, I didn't have a helper and had to use a 10 ft. Pipe with a 3/4" breaker bar and was barely able to break one particular nut loose.
--Geoff
And if you have any kind of chrome hub covers/rings or hats you can't use the Torque Multiplier wrench. Ask me how I know. Anyone want to buy one? 🤔
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What kind of torque multiplier are you guys using? Never had to use a cheater bar with mine, never had to have somebody help me, never damaged the covers.
That's real tight. Surprised the rachet held up. That is why I remove my wheel fastners every couple of years when I am at a place that makes it easy to do. Looks like he even gave up trying the 1" impact.
Yeah. Even the shop I took it too blew up their 1" impact on my lugs. Someone overtightened them before I owned it.
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The over tightening happens when the shop or Service Truck uses a huge compressor set at 175#, a 1" air hose, and sets the one inch air gun at full power. If they to do this to you, tell them to back up, and use a torque wrench at 440#.
No GoodSam in Australia so outback it is strictly DIY. Spare wheel behind the front bumper bar plus all the gear - including about 12' of extension bars needed to get nuts loose. Not a quick job, especially if it is an inside dual wheel so have two sets of nuts to loosen. Always happens on a dirt road on a stinking hot day but good thing about having a conversion is there is always a hot shower, clean clothes and a cool drink at the end.
Also have tag chains so in total have three spare wheels and if in a real bind, there is always the option of using an outside dual wheel and pumping the inside one up to maximum allowable and driving slowly for 150 miles to get to the next tyre shop..
Tighten a nut up to 450 ft-lbs, leave it for a few years and 450 ft lbs is not going to get it loose any time soon. Hence the 12' of bar and a big man sitting on the end. Bet he was actually bouncing up and down on the bar rather than just sitting on it.
I also have an adjustable stand to support the outer end of the tube spanner so there is no sideways force between the socket and the nut, just torque. Saves it all slipping off the nut just as you stand on the end of the bar.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/5x5IgsyfdcnS9IoV-wymZX3zkDsrtlyrQTViF6a4VE-OXHzCGXVsYf5i4fs2GceoXyHq7tkke-fpq2tUcWw=w124-h220-rw)
For those who think lubricating threads doesn't alter the stretch applied to the stud, for a given torque, the difference in resulting tension in the stud can be three to one between lubricated and non-lubricated. If you want proof, try pushing a heavy weight up an incline with and without grease between the weight and the incline. Throw in an ignorant tyre jockey armed with a BIG rattle gun and a big pail full of goop that he applies with gay abandon, and the amazing thing is that more studs don't break right off.
Screw it, I'm not carrying any tire removal gear!! Just programmed Good Sam Roadside number into the phone and a paperback into the seat pocket to read while waiting for service. Never ever thought changing a tire was so damn complicated; only here in busnut land.LOL
Sometimes Busnutland doesn't include phone service. You have to be like a Boy Scout-- be prepared.
Quote from: Geoff on December 01, 2017, 05:02:21 PM
Sometimes Busnutland doesn't include phone service. You have to be like a Boy Scout-- be prepared.
Ditto
I have all the gear - and absolutely
NO desire to use it. It is there only to provide options. :)
Ebay # 253270572230 is similar to what I have. 3700 ft-lb rated, 68:1 ratio - once they are broken loose, a cordless drill will spin them off. 6.62 ft-lbs input = 450 on the nut. ;D
Quote from: kyle4501 on December 01, 2017, 06:31:10 PM
Ditto
I have all the gear - and absolutely NO desire to use it. It is there only to provide options. :)
Ebay # 253270572230 is similar to what I have. 3700 ft-lb rated, 68:1 ratio - once they are broken loose, a cordless drill will spin them off. 6.62 ft-lbs input = 450 on the nut. ;D
If you have a torque multiplier loosening and tightening lug nuts isn't an issue, manhandling 200 pounds of steel and rubber is ;D
I think that a lot of us have a spare tire.....and it doesn't have anything to do with a bus! ;D
I just weighed my spare tire: 240 lbs. Tire and steel rim. It also takes 120# of effort to pick it up. (I just bought a scale for my shop).
Quote from: Geoff on December 02, 2017, 10:26:01 AM
I just weighed my spare tire: 240 lbs. Tire and steel rim. It also takes 120# of effort to pick it up. (I just bought a scale for my shop).
Haha- you just broke your bathroom scale didn't you? ;D
Quote from: Ed Hackenbruch on December 02, 2017, 10:24:48 AM
I think that a lot of us have a spare tire.....and it doesn't have anything to do with a bus! ;D
;D ;D
I weighed one of my 11r 22.5 tires once and it was about 110 lbs. The steel wheel was 70 lbs for a total of 180 lbs.......but then i added 100 lbs. of air. ;)
I love the tire shops that use an impact to tighten the lug nuts and then bring out the torque wrench to check the torque. The lug nuts were likely overtightened by the impact so of course the torque wrench is going to show them being tight enough.
Quote from: PP on December 02, 2017, 06:22:23 PM
Haha- you just broke your bathroom scale didn't you? ;D
Actually, no. I bought a shipping scale.