Can someone help me relax a bit about shifting our new 4108? Every time I drive it I feel like I'm taking years off the life of the transmission.
When the transmission is warmed up, I can usually up shift with no (or minimal grinding). Downshifts are really frustrating for me - 4th to 3rd is not too bad, but if I have to go down to 2nd in traffic I usually have problems doing so without grinding. On a cold transmission, even the up shifts can be problematic for me right now. Seems like this things has a really steep learning curve. Oddly, the one thing I have no problem with is getting into first - I just know that I have to do this as I come to a stop and then not move into neutral.
I have read many threads on this. I think that I have have a cognitive understanding of how things are supposed to go. Problem is that I have not yet developed the physical technique to get things going smoothly. Making it more difficult is the air throttle which seems to remove any sense of feel from the accelerator.
Anyone have any tips?
Anyone know how much abuse one of these 4-speeds can take before needing an overhaul?
Richard,,, to bad you live in the state of Wisquito,, if closer you could attend the Western GM Coach annual rally at Quartzsite AZ...A certain gentleman we call RJ ( a rogue on this board) has been pushing GMs with crash boxes around half his life and is good at tutoring newbes in the art of crunching gears.>>>Dan
We've been crashing our Spicer four speed for almost 40 years. These are called bullet proof transmissions and we have had zero issues with ours. Clutch free pedal is related to crash box gear grinding. We find if the clutch free pedal is adjusted to it's minimum, there is less grinding of the gear train. If free pedal is sloppy and closer to "more than you need" then grinding becomes worse. Couple with those statements - the single most helpful thing we did for our Spicer 4 speed at the direction of the late Dean's Coach, was to run a pure synthetic 50 wt. Gear oil. With that change many years ago, & the fine tuned free pedal adjustment, the amount of gear grinding we get is minimal & of no consequence to the longevity of the crash box. By the way they don't call it a crash box for nothing...
A tach helps or mark the speedometer,I never found those hard to shift because I grew up in the era of the old square gears my dad owned trucks that had 4 speeds and some with the 5 speeds with the Brown Lipe 4 speed auxiliary transmissions those were treat lol.
The 1st modern 5 speed transmission I drove I thought something was wrong,you will get the hang of it since it's not heart surgery just takes time
Richard -
Welcome to the world of GM wet-clutch 4-spd manual transmissions!!
Over the years I've seen many an experienced stick-shift jockey brought to their knees by these Spicers, so you're not alone.
Send me your email address in a private message and I'll send you an article (in .pdf format) I wrote a few years ago about shifting these beasts.
Dan -
Thanks for your kind words, they're appreciated. See you at Q!
RJ
Soon you'll be kicking yourself for letting that 4106 go. There was the automatic with everything you would need. You'll end up paying at least twice what that coach would've cost to bring home. Plus, coaches with manual transmission are getting scarcer and less desirable, esp. value wise.
Quote from: chessie4905 on November 08, 2017, 06:30:17 PM
Soon you'll be kicking yourself for letting that 4106 go. There was the automatic with everything you would need. You'll end up paying at least twice what that coach would've cost to bring home. Plus, coaches with manual transmission are getting scarcer and less desirable, esp. value wise.
No matter how I ran the numbers keeping the 4106 just didn't make sense. There were just too many issues to deal with, and each one had expenses attached. In the end, we decided that a V730 with over 150,000 miles on it just wasn't worth the money it was going to take to bring it home. For now, I'm focusing on learning to shift the 4-speed. Down the road if I decide I must have an automatic I'll figure out how to make it happen. Nothing's permanent, and nothing is beyond future changes.
Your model should have a countershaft brake. Two small clutch plates connected to countershaft to assist in shifting. They work when pedal is fully depressed to slow or stop gears. The only time pedal is fully depressed is when just selecting 1st or reverse. Otherwise can interfere with normal shifting. This assumes there is still lining on those plates and they aren't worn out.
I learned how to shift the Spicer using RJ's memo. The key is to double clutch every shift and match engine speeds with every shift. I have tricks I learned. When up-shifting, the engine speed has to fall to match the new gear, so take your foot off the accelerator, clutch into neutral and pause, clutch again and go into gear - the length of time you pause depends on the gear. First to second is a big jump in gear ratio, I would pause for a 1 - 2 count. Second to third is a smaller jump, I would pause for a 1 count. Third to fourth, I wouldn't pause at all, just a deliberate double clutch and into fourth. Down-shifting I only did when necessary. If possible, I would do it by speedometer. I knew the governed speed in every gear. When I reached the governed speed for the gear I was going to shift to plus a few MPH (plus a few because if I was down-shifting I was slowing down, and I needed the engine speed to match the new gear when I got to it) I would clutch to get out of gear and into neutral, I would stab the accelerator hard to bring the engine up to the governor, and then off the accelerator and clutch into the new gear. I was using speed and the engine governor to help match engine speed to gear ratio. In normal driving I would roll up to a stop sign in fourth gear, clutch in at around 20 mph, and shift into first from fourth once I stopped.
Here is a picture of what you are grinding. The engagement of the gears is by sliding a hub over those tiny little splines in the center of the gear. You can see the splines on the main shaft that the hub (the gear with the straight cut teeth is the sliding hub, the gear with the helical cut teeth is second gear) slides on and the nubs on the gear itself are about 1/4" wide and tall. The hub slides over those little nubs to engage the gear and lock it to the main shaft.
To bad you don't live near Oklahoma City,OK.
Fred Rayman is the old master when it comes to shifting the old Spicer 4 speeds.
My 4905 was eating my lunch when it came time to down shift or up shift.
Fred said I can shift it no grinding let me show you.
Fred was a master at shifting the old GM's.
Of course Fred was a real bus driver as he had driven many miles for Oklahoma Transportation Company and the fleet was all GMC Coaches.
Later my 4905 got a V730 and it was a wonderful coach to drive.
Ask R J Long!
JLV/RRTex.
After owning the 4104 for about 4 years and driving it for 3, I actually enjoy the 4 speed and when you get the hang of matching the engine speed with the trans / road speeds, most of the time you don't even need the clutch, take your time and the best way to get the hang of it is just drive. For me the only issue is sometimes you cant hear the engine since it's 35 feet behind you , but all is good, Love my 4104.
He is shifting with a oil clutch with a clutch brake if he pushes the clutch to far down it screws the shift up, it only takes 1 inch of down pn the pedal to disengage a oil clutch if everything is adjusted right.Oil clutches have been around for years not just on GM buses and are still used today a to heavy weight oil is a killer on one shifting,he will get it time
Thanks to RJ for the article and to everyone for their tips.
I guess the one biggest thing I need to work on is timing and getting the engine speed up higher when downshifting. With the air throttle there is no feedback through the pedal. Hard to hear the engine as well. I've been afraid of over-revving the engine. Sounds like that's not a problem and may be what's causing my downshifting problems. The upshifts are most likely a timing issue. Going to need more practice - guess that's just one more excuse for taking out the bus even more often.
Richard,the thing about double clutching is to make sure you get your revs up while the clutch is out .In other words when you need to change gears ,depress clutch ,move shift lever to neutral THEN rev the engine to get the r p m up (you don't have to floor board it )move the shift leaver to the selected gear .At least that was what always worked for me .Going into 1ST should the need ever arise is a little trickier.The best deal here is to do the way our old school bus driving instructor told us to.Wait till the bus stops moving the instant it does cram it into first and proceed!! lol
You can adjust the air throttle to fit your driving habits and response time that is no biggie if you feel that is the problem,that engine probably has a throttle delay also that you can adjust
In this video I started talking about my challenges shifting my accursed Spicer 8245a at around 8:40
https://youtu.be/RWdZs_p7AN4?t=8m40s
It's lasted since 2012. In order to preserve my clutch life as much as possible in my last 5000 miles trip across the USA I've also learned to shift with no clutch. That has included shifting down. Several times I've managed to shift with zero to minimal grinding too.
Was annoying- then I added up my average fuel consumption bills and saw I was getting 8-10 mpg! I'm happy!
Do you have an issue with your clutch, Dreadnaught?
Quote from: bevans6 on November 09, 2017, 08:40:19 AM
Do you have an issue with your clutch, Dreadnaught?
Yeah- the tap thing that you lift to adjust- at he back -I've followed procedure and its reached the limit of adjustment.
Sometimes even when stationary with clutch depressed, it doesn't want to go into first. It doesn't slip yet but I fear a new clutch will be needed soon.
Dread, check your PM's, please.
Quote from: bevans6 on November 09, 2017, 11:28:36 AM
Dread, check your PM's, please.
Just did. Sorry, was in an interesting meeting
The Kern High School District in beautiful Bakersfield CA way back in about 1969 taught us KIDS how to shift the old various Fuller and Spicer transmissions. Took a little time. Took some steel off the dog clutches. But ... quickly we became quite good at it.
All the good rolling stock were Crowns.
Usually 743 220hp Cummings, (sp?) engines. About 8 mpg. Some had clutch brakes. Not for shifting while rolling. Abusive. But ... handy while slowly going up steep hills when up shifting. Sometimes you had to. The mechanics knew and understood.
Cummins. C..U..M..M..I..N..S. Cummins. Cummins. How dare me mis spell his name! Sorry. :(
The newer Crown Supercoaches at that time came with the famous, (infamous?) close ratio RTO910 10 speed Roadranger transmissions. Extremely easy to shift. The older 5 speed granny gear Spicers on the old 1955 or so Crowns were more of a challenge.
The older stuff had 220hp gasoline Hall Scot engines. A whopping 3 mpg.
All it takes is practice. Perhaps some adequate instruction from Old Coots who still remember such transmissions before the dawn of time? You can learn how. Just takes some time. Also the mechanical stuff inside your Bus Conversion must be in good shape.
My final driver was a 1963 Crown 10 wheeler. Old #21. 220-290 Cummings. (sp?) RTO910. Jake. Ran the Ridge Route twice daily.
Any old trucker friends you can ask? Young folks today can not even shift a normal manual. Never learned how. Any truck driving schools in your area? Good fresh instruction today is always a good idea. I would like to attend such. A refresher.
Cold engine, warm engine, hot engine. Cold tranny, warm tranny, hot tranny. Up hill, down hill, level. Road speed. All makes a difference shifting. Eventually it will become a muscle memory. Instinctive. Once learned it remains learned. Much fun also.
Quote from: HB of CJ on November 09, 2017, 01:16:00 PM
...Also the mechanical stuff inside your Bus Conversion must be in good shape...
At least that's one thing I've got going for me. The bus only has about 40K miles (original & actual miles, not just since a rebuild). Luke has recently had the bus in his shop and says it's as bone stock as they come and that the drive train is in top shape. At least till I started shifting it :{
I am absolutely jealous Luvrbus got to drive a 5 speed Brown Lipe with a 4 speed auxiliary transmission. Most of these transmissions were gone when I started driving in the late seventies. I've heard stories about when drivers shifted both sticks at the same time, they would need to shift with no hands on the steering wheel.
Chessie4905 is correct: the clutch brake, which should be felt when the clutch is fully depressed, will stop the gears from spinning so the transmission can easily be put into 1st or reverse. The clutch pedal should never be fully depressed when the vehicle is rolling; that will quickly wear out the lining material on the clutch brake. I have seen drivers ruin clutch brakes very quickly only to hear them later need to grind the transmission every time they slammed the stick into first or reverse. Ouch!
When upshifting or downshifting, you only need to depress the clutch very little past the "free play" point in the clutch travel to shift. An old crown school bus driver once told me that when he had a bus full of noisy kids, he was forced to drive by the tach and watch the RPMs to shift because he could not hear the engine. We had a old time shop foreman who drew red lines on the face of the tach showing when to upshift and when to downshift. Maybe someone here can tell what those RPM levels should be.
You just need more practice to get your timing down to coordinate the RPMs, shifting, clutching and clutch braking. Eventually it will all come together like a symphony!
There is a big benefit to having a coach with a difficult to shift transmission: it is a "millennial antitheft device!"
Mike
I've read in many places that the wet clutch in the 4108 does not have a clutch brake. It was explained to me that this is one of the reasons it is so difficult to shift into first gear. I just looked through the manual and parts book and can't find any reference to a clutch brake. Can anyone confirm the existence or absence of a clutch brake on a 4108?
HB,, Clessie CUMMINS would not appreciate mangling his name,,this same mechanic/inventor invented the JAKE BRAKE..
.>>>Dan
Quote from: richard5933 on November 09, 2017, 02:56:10 PM
I've read in many places that the wet clutch in the 4108 does not have a clutch brake. It was explained to me that this is one of the reasons it is so difficult to shift into first gear. I just looked through the manual and parts book and can't find any reference to a clutch brake. Can anyone confirm the existence or absence of a clutch brake on a 4108?
Could have been a option on the 4108,I have seen those on 4905 with wet clutches .When I change one over to V730 it had a brake
Quote from: richard5933 on November 09, 2017, 06:35:58 AM
With the air throttle there is no feedback through the pedal.
Richard -Wasn't aware that you also had an air throttle. In that case, combined with the wet clutch, you've got the most "entertaining" combination GM ever built.
Also the most frustrating.
Here's a video of Fred Rayman shifting a Scenicruiser. Dry clutch and mechanical throttle, thus different, but the shifting concept is similar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlH3OrXcOdM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlH3OrXcOdM)
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
As was mentioned earlier, installing a tach can be a big help. Although we have an automatic now, we did have a Spicer before, which a never particularly liked. However, when our clutch began to fail, I had to learn to shift without it. Using the tach to coordinate the gears made it easy. We drove from near Palm Springs to Bakersfield only using the clutch to get into first from neutral. It actually made driving much more pleasant.
Quote from: RJ on November 09, 2017, 03:25:36 PM
Richard -
...In that case, combined with the wet clutch, you've got the most "entertaining" combination GM ever built...
That's what I was going for...entertaining.
I've watched that video of Fred dozens of times. Makes it look so very easy, almost like he's been doing it for decades. :)
I'll be picking it up tomorrow from the shop after they did a few more minor tweaks for me. They're keeping it inside tonight, so at least I won't be driving it on an ice-cold transmission. I'll try the techniques in your article RJ and see how it goes.
Biggest thing that I really have to work on is not stressing about traffic behind me. Panicking does not help make the shifting smoother.
Ok, went out to shop and checked manuals. X8064 operator's booklet doesn't have any mention of the brake unit. X7564 maintenance manual doesn't talk about it, however transmission breakdown illustrations show it. Listed as #44- countershaft brake cover, #46- reaction plate, #47-disc assembly, #51- reaction plate, #55 countershaft brake retainer, ND some other small items. There is no separate section for 4108's trans. On rear of transmission near output shaft where driveshaft is connected, there is about a 5 inch slightly rounded square cover with 4 bolts. You can remove this to check condition of discs. I don't recall losing much oil when pulling cover. discs are easily removed. If they are shot, it will be obvious. I did read somewhere that you only pushed clutch pedal clear to floor to engage 1st gear. Nor more than half way to upshift or down shift. Operators manual directs driver to accelerate to engine to full governored speed before upshifting or downshifting. Shifting speed will be faster when trans is cold
The manuals that came with the coach were Maintenance Manual X6814 with the Supplement 7014 which covers the 4108. They don't mention the parts you're talking about. How do I know if I've got the correct manuals?
I had a friend in the early 80's that ordered a Peterbilt with a 6 X 4 both overdrive. I got the model numbers of both transmissions and made a table for him with all possible ratios. Even though theoretically there were 24 gears, believe it or not, 10 were either repeats, or so close you couldn't really use them-so only 14 speeds progressive. I'll take an Eaton 18spd Roadranger any day with a true 18 speeds progressive. Good Luck, TomC
They don't mention it in mine either, but the individual parts are shown in trans breakdown. These parts are at the end of the countershaft toward output shaft yoke. Pull the cover to verify.
Quote from: Dreadnought on November 09, 2017, 10:24:31 AM
Yeah- the tap thing that you lift to adjust- at he back -I've followed procedure and its reached the limit of adjustment.
Sometimes even when stationary with clutch depressed, it doesn't want to go into first. It doesn't slip yet but I fear a new clutch will be needed soon.
does this have a clutch brake disc ?
some had a one piece that required the transmission to be removed. there is a two piece replacement for these situations.
we used an air chisel to remove the one piece..
Haldex Midland BK313 Hinge 2" Clutch Brake
(https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/obcAAOSwMvtZSGVI/s-l225.jpg)
https://www.vehicleservicepros.com/directory/brake-service-and-tools/product/12084155/kiene-diesel-accessories-inc-clutch-brake-cutter-no-k1360 (https://www.vehicleservicepros.com/directory/brake-service-and-tools/product/12084155/kiene-diesel-accessories-inc-clutch-brake-cutter-no-k1360)
Quote from: eagle19952 on November 09, 2017, 08:05:20 PM
does this have a clutch brake disc ?
some had a one piece that required the transmission to be removed. there is a two piece replacement for these situations.
we used an air chisel to remove the one piece..
Haldex Midland BK313 Hinge 2" Clutch Brake
(https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/obcAAOSwMvtZSGVI/s-l225.jpg)
https://www.vehicleservicepros.com/directory/brake-service-and-tools/product/12084155/kiene-diesel-accessories-inc-clutch-brake-cutter-no-k1360 (https://www.vehicleservicepros.com/directory/brake-service-and-tools/product/12084155/kiene-diesel-accessories-inc-clutch-brake-cutter-no-k1360)
When I was at that place in Williams CA, the older guy said "It's a push type clutch, twin plate, 15 inch diameter with dry clutches. " if that answers your question.
I don't know if it has a clutch brake. Bevans- do you know if it has a clutch brake? I imagine it's virtually the same set up as yours
iirc most twin discs i had were equipped with a clutch brake..this is what lets you into first gear with the input shaft turning at idle.
maybe a/his bus does not have this.
just posting possibles ;D
I have an air throttle on my 1975 Model 05 Eagle with the Spicer 4-speed, and I have gone up and down the gears all over the US. It will take time, but follow RJ's guide and practice. You can shift into first while still moving as long as you are within the range of that gear, you just have match the revs needed to get in. On steep grades, there might be times you need to use it. I have not used an oil clutch, so I can not speak for the difference, but obviously it has worked for others.
If he removes the cover, he can be sure. Plates can be removed or replaced easily. One piece.I think they are held with snap rings. Several years ago, I swapped out a worn out set for a good set quite easily. There is no clutch brake. It uses a countershaft brake instead. Regular clutch uses two very large auto transmission clutch plates apply and floater plate. Whole setup runs in oil. Hard to burn unless you get crazy. Very little travel required to engage or release. Pressure plate is diaphragm style with multiple fingers. BTW, clutch looks a lot like the style that was used in 4104 Hydrashift setup.
MC-5 does not have a clutch brake, or a countershaft brake. It would solve a world of problems if it did. It does have a 15" dry twin disc Long push type clutch. I was looking at mine this morning... ;) On mine I decided the dragging/won't shift into first issue was worn splines on the input shaft to the transmission causing the plates to hang up. Worse when the plates got hot and seemed to swell a bit and drag worse. I spent a few hours trying to design a countershaft brake but never tried to actually do it.
Brian
Quote from: bevans6 on November 10, 2017, 10:35:17 AM
MC-5 does not have a clutch brake, or a countershaft brake. It would solve a world of problems if it did. It does have a 15" dry twin disc Long push type clutch. I was looking at mine this morning... ;) On mine I decided the dragging/won't shift into first issue was worn splines on the input shaft to the transmission causing the plates to hang up. Worse when the plates got hot and seemed to swell a bit and drag worse. I spent a few hours trying to design a countershaft brake but never tried to actually do it.
Brian
That sounds like mine. Very worrying....
I don't know about how things play out in an MCI, but in the 4108 I'm pretty sure that getting the transmission into first gear is a universal problem. Nearly impossible to accomplish this with the engine running - I usually make sure I'm in first when I get to an intersection. If I need to let it idle to warm up usually I have to shut down, shift into first, and then restart using the neutral switch over ride. If getting into first was my only problem I'd be happy.
All that said, today's drive went a bit better. I made a point of holding the accelerator pedal down to keep engine speed up until I'd found the sweet spot and got the downshift done. Still a bit problematic on a couple of shifts into 2nd, but slowly getting better. Again, most important thing I've done is overcome my fear of slowing/blocking traffic for a moment.
Screw the traffic. Everybody is in a hurry and no matter how fast you can get started there is always going to be some fool that wants you to go faster.
Get a big sign to spread across the back that says "Student Driver".
Quote from: Jon on November 10, 2017, 11:59:38 AM
Screw the traffic. Everybody is in a hurry and no matter how fast you can get started there is always going to be some fool that wants you to go faster.
Get a big sign to spread across the back that says "Student Driver".
Or you could roll coal to encourage them to back off- easily done on a 2 stroke Detroit!
HI RJ;
Please send me that article also. I have been grinding gears
for a 100k miles now and still, I might learn something.
Thanks, Merle. (MC-7 4spd)
[qu ote author=RJ link=topic=32528.msg367813#msg367813 date=1510191042]
Richard -
Welcome to the world of GM wet-clutch 4-spd manual transmissions!!
Over the years I've seen many an experienced stick-shift jockey brought to their knees by these Spicers, so you're not alone.
Send me your email address in a private message and I'll send you an article (in .pdf format) I wrote a few years ago about shifting these beasts.
Dan -
Thanks for your kind words, they're appreciated. See you at Q!
RJ
[/quote]
Determining whether you have a clutch brake is easy. Just place the tranny in neutral. Let out the clutch. Then quickly push the clutch all the way in to the floor while at the same time engaging 1st rear or your starting gear.
If the shifter goes into gear without all the grinding and horrible noises you may have a functional clutch brake. It the tranny refuses to go into gear without a bunch of grinding then it either does not work or you do not have one.
You can also use the clutch brake to quickly shift while accelerating going up hill and needing to up shift. Considered abusive but sometimes you have no choice. Fire apparatus comes to mind. The mechanics frowned.
The clutch is NOT a neutral gear.
Quote from: TomC on November 09, 2017, 06:32:50 PM
I had a friend in the early 80's that ordered a Peterbilt with a 6 X 4 both overdrive. I got the model numbers of both transmissions and made a table for him with all possible ratios. Even though theoretically there were 24 gears, believe it or not, 10 were either repeats, or so close you couldn't really use them-so only 14 speeds progressive. I'll take an Eaton 18spd Roadranger any day with a true 18 speeds progressive. Good Luck, TomC
Dad's trucks were 5x4-20 speed the Brown Lipe in low was used off road setting up rigs the great part in his business was the 5 speed winch that the Brown Lipe would let you have most of the time only 15 gears was used on the highways.Those AutoCar's would haul anything you put behind them on a lowboy with the 5x4 and the 380 hp Cummins.I like the 2 sticks myself , I never wanted to be a truck driver but did enjoy driving my Pete haul truck on occasions
Rj's article is published online at : http://busnut.com/forum/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=41 (http://busnut.com/forum/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=41)
Most busnuts don't need to worry about a clutch brake, they don't have one.
For those who do, the clutch brake is NOT FOR USING WHILE MOVING!
Billy Big Rigger is a hired driver, and doesn't have to pay for repairs. The clutch brake is to be used stationary, to get into the start-up gear.
Richard, if you drive religiously by the speedometer, there is no need for a tachometer. Ask yourself why the coach doesn't have a tachometer now, or since it was built...
Stop worrying about over -revving on downshifts... You can't... Go out and floor the throttle in neitral, it just goes up to governed RPM and that's it.
On a downshift, it takes a bit of time to get this happening, as speed is dropping off, so you start just as speed drops to a couple mph above governed speed in the next lower gear, lift throttle, clutch in, shift to neutral, clutch out, floor and hold throttle to floor, clutch in, shift into lower gear, clutch out, continue climbing seamlessly. You must start just above governed speed, and when you are done, you will be passing through governed speed, and it all happens like a hot knife through butter.
You choose gears according to an EXACT roadspeed, that depends completely on GOVERNED speed in each gear.
Your gear change points are not variable, they are EXACTLY at a certain road speed.
An automobile has 5000 or more rpm to play with gears. The coach has 2100 rpm... no room to play.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Don't you love Allisons the best thing invented since sliced bread ,no linkage,no clutch, no gear chasing,grinding and no left knee hurting
up until they won,t go into gear ! ( auto trans ) ) but never had that problem yet
dave
Quote from: sledhead on November 11, 2017, 05:34:48 AM
up until they won,t go into gear ! ( auto trans ) ) but never had that problem yet
dave
Yep but you can have a 740 installed rebuilt with a warranty cheaper than a clutch job at a shop,a friggn clutch for a MCI 5 cost 2000 bucks plus now no labor or other parts involved
Quote from: richard5933 on November 10, 2017, 11:24:29 AM
I don't know about how things play out in an MCI, but in the 4108 I'm pretty sure that getting the transmission into first gear is a universal problem. Nearly impossible to accomplish this with the engine running - I usually make sure I'm in first when I get to an intersection. If I need to let it idle to warm up usually I have to shut down, shift into first, and then restart using the neutral switch over ride. If getting into first was my only problem I'd be happy.
Richard -As mentioned in my article, at a dead stop with the transmission in neutral, try slipping the transmission into 4th to stop the gears from rotating, then sliding it over into 1st. It will still bump a little, but not nearly as bad. (The issue you're talking about is universal to GMC Parlor Car wet clutches.)
Don't forget that a drop of mama's white nail polish on the speedometer face at the maximum road speed in each of the lower gears does wonders to help with your downshifts when pulling a grade.
Glad to hear that things are getting better, like anything else, it gets easier with practice.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
RJ, would you consider making a detailed video for youtube to show us newbies how in heck to shift our 4 speed spicer buses. I am in the same boat as those above and nearly ready to try using my bus by spring after all these years. But, I can read what to do but I learn much easier by watching video's over, and over till I get it right and that is how I teach others on a job I once had. Video's go a long ways, but you showing us how to shift on a level ground, double clutching, shifting up and down, going up and down steep grades etc. I know this is time consuming but man could you be helping a lot of us out. I would watch that thing over and over till I see and feel everything you tell us. Just consider this if you would, I know I would appreciate it. I try to find stuff on this on youtube but to no avail.
If you do such a thing please post the URL for it on this post after you post it so we can all find that easily as we are all in the same darn boat.
Thanks ahead of time.
I've heard that recommendation for years on bus forums and it never made a difference for me. Make sure your idle is at spec. and throttle has proper return spring/s. That will make a difference. Some have their engines set higher so idle oil pressure looks better and exaberate the problem, plus if your clutch drags a little. Check that by holding clutch in and waiting for gears to stop turning. If it takes more than two days, clutch is dragging. Ok, I'm exaggerating.....more than an hour or so. Oh, and don't put it in neutral at traffic lights. They'll never slow down then, especially with a dozen vehicles behind you. 04's are bad for this as all the gears and bearings have about a bazillion miles on them and are almost a perpetual motion machine now. Synthetic oil helps as it doesn't get thinner when hot.
Quote from: Gary LaBombard on November 11, 2017, 02:06:14 PM
RJ, would you consider making a detailed video for youtube to show us newbies how in heck to shift our 4 speed spicer buses. I am in the same boat as those above and nearly ready to try using my bus by spring after all these years. But, I can read what to do but I learn much easier by watching video's over, and over till I get it right and that is how I teach others on a job I once had. Video's go a long ways, but you showing us how to shift on a level ground, double clutching, shifting up and down, going up and down steep grades etc. I know this is time consuming but man could you be helping a lot of us out. I would watch that thing over and over till I see and feel everything you tell us. Just consider this if you would, I know I would appreciate it. I try to find stuff on this on youtube but to no avail.
If you do such a thing please post the URL for it on this post after you post it so we can all find that easily as we are all in the same darn boat.
Thanks ahead of time.
Gary, you Eagle has a different clutch setup from a MCI or GM bus your 4 speed will shift easy,Sonja can drive a 4 speed Eagle all over the country and she has but a GM or MCI gives her fits she make me drive those ;D
Quote from: Gary LaBombard on November 11, 2017, 02:06:14 PM
RJ, would you consider making a detailed video for youtube to show us newbies how in heck to shift our 4 speed spicer buses.
Gary -I would be more than happy to do such a video - IF I had a stick-shift coach to do it with!
Perhaps while at the Quartzsite rally in January I might be able to come up with a volunteer or two, and will try to get the three majors (Eagle, GMC, MCI) in the film, too.
In the meantime, Gary, watch again the video of Fred shifting the Scenicruiser I linked to earlier in this thread replying to Richard. Pay particular attention to the timing as he shifts the coach.
Stay tuned?
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
You should see the video(s) of RJ shifting Adrian's Scenic up and down the derby parking lot at the last Arcadia rally. It was a sight to behold....
Check the throttle return response. A lazy return will work against you. Our 47 with the Spicer was a different bus with a properly functioning throttle. Opened the Spicer box after the Allison 1000 conversion. Itvwas like new inside.
This is interesting I never knew people had so many problems shifting a old 4 speed it is a sign of the times automatics have spoiled us over the years
I can't wait to find out after all these years Cliff. I definitely will make a (Before and After) video of my Eagle spicer shifting methods. It will be funny I am sure at first but if it encourages others and I accomplish the shifting mode like you old timers I will be glad to have helped those newbies such as myself at this moment. Don't forget to post on this thread or a new one RJ your procedure for the shifting. To show you what a retard I was when I brought my bus home, I was told to go in reverse to press in the (Reverse) button and then shift into 2nd gear I believe. Anyhow, I was turning in a direct 90 deg. turn in my drive way, got up close to my 8' high wooden fence and needed to go in reverse to rearrange my attack to get in the drive way.
Well, I was inches away from the fence, decided to go in reverse as I said, pushed in the Reverse button and released it then shifted into 2nd. gear. Guess what, I was in 2nd gear and ended up getting closer to my fence. I was not told to hold the button in the entire time while shifting, I was nervous, neighbors watching my dilemma and enjoying the show. I stopped the bus, went in my shed and got my chainsaw and cut out a section of 8 ft. out of my fence. no more problem, I drove in the rest of the way and parked it for 14 years now. Neighbors do not fool with me at all anymore.
Yes that happened, but I tell of all my stupid mistakes to show I can laugh at myself and to show it can happen to a newbie very easily and hopefully my experiences will make them remember little things like that to show it happens to all until they themselves become veterans of driving a bus or wanting to. I will look forward to all and any videos you can make RJ or anyone on our special conversion hobby.
Gary, if you don't have or a need a drivers manual for your 05 I found one on SCRIBD uploaded by Brian 9966 and it is free print you one (32 pages)
Quote from: RJ on November 11, 2017, 07:27:07 PM
Gary -
I would be more than happy to do such a video - IF I had a stick-shift coach to do it with!
Perhaps while at the Quartzsite rally in January I might be able to come up with a volunteer or two, and will try to get the three majors (Eagle, GMC, MCI) in the film, too.
In the meantime, Gary, watch again the video of Fred shifting the Scenicruiser I linked to earlier in this thread replying to Richard. Pay particular attention to the timing as he shifts the coach.
Stay tuned?
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Hi RJ;
I plan on being at Quartzite with my MC-7 and a spicer. Have been crunching
gears for over a 100k miles. Would like to see you at what you do.
Merle.
Quote from: luvrbus on November 12, 2017, 08:18:46 AM
Gary, if you don't have or a need a drivers manual for your 05 I found one on SCRIBD uploaded by Brian 9966 and it is free print you one (32 pages)
that would be this :)
https://www.scribd.com/doc/78693843/Eagle-Driver-s-Manual (https://www.scribd.com/doc/78693843/Eagle-Driver-s-Manual)
Donald, unable to download above link without signing up for monthly prescription, Cliff I will take you up on that offer when you get the time. I just don't want to pay for something monthly I have not had to use in years. RJ, I see where Merle can also use your help and hopefully you can.
Donald's link works for me Gary and I am not signed up there I just looked at complete manual
You are so right Cliff, I did not scroll down to see the information, Dahhh, Thanks, I will copy it after reading to see what I need. As always thanks Just tried to download this, then you have to sign up to do that, So I will read what I need and hand copy I guess. I'll Figure something out,
Quote from: Gary LaBombard on November 12, 2017, 07:52:06 PM
You are so right Cliff, I did not scroll down to see the information, Dahhh, Thanks, I will copy it after reading to see what I need. As always thanks Just tried to download this, then you have to sign up to do that, So I will read what I need and hand copy I guess. I'll Figure something out,
screen shots ?
That is what I am doing Donald, I cannot do this for any typing though under the photos. Maybe I am not doing the screen shots correct. I am (Saving using the right hand click on my mouse) and it only copies the photos of something but not the explanations under the photos. But a lot of good information so far, will finish reading and taking notes tomorrow. The manual says to always double clutch and it is not necessary to drive the speed upward to the governor before shifting? I plan to read it all over a couple of times, any newbies with a Eagle should read this. Thanks again for the informative link, and if Donald can give me correct tips on taking screen shots that would help if it works. I am still using Windows XP!! I know, I am cheap to get new computer but too old to change now and my computer still works on most things.
XP should have a print screen function do it 1 page at a time damn I miss XP I cannot find a print screen on W's 10
Clifford, it's really simple. Just do Alt/Print screen and the screen is captured to a clipboard. It can then just be pasted to an email or a document. Each time you do the Alt/Print screen command it deletes the previous one. This is fine for me, but if you want to keep multiple print screens available you would have to download a program for that. Apparently there are several. On the downside, it does not seem to paste directly to this forum unless I am doing something wrong.
Quote from: luvrbus on November 13, 2017, 05:33:03 AM
XP should have a print screen function do it 1 page at a time damn I miss XP I cannot find a print screen on W's 10
in W10 it is called snipping tool,on the taskbar search window type snipping tool.
open it then minus off it...right click on the icon and pin it to your task bar.
open and click new and go.
hover over the choices or click on them to see the clipping options.
basically dragging and then saving to a snip folder (like a photo or document folder)...
you can save as many as you want...make sub folders
Yes, that's definitely better than just using print screen since it offers more control of what is copied and makes it a savable file. However, if you do not save the snip, it seems to be just saved on the clipboard and deleted the next time the feature is used.
I am including a link a friend introduced me to a few minutes ago to be used on old computers I guess like mine. Here it is, I haven't used it only on a test so far but wanted to give you guys a chance to have it also and maybe it will help copy things like I am trying to do.
Here is link:http://www.tntscreencapture.com/ (http://www.tntscreencapture.com/)
Here are the steps I was told to use after downloading TNTscreencapture:
Here are the steps:
1. Open the TNT Screen Capture program.
2. Open Word.
3. Open the Eagle Driver's manual (or whatever you want to copy from.)
4. Press Ctrl-0. You should then now a large crosshair on the screen.
5. Left-click and drag a box around whatever you want to copy. Then release the left button. You should now have a box around what you want to copy.
6. Hold the Ctrl button, and then left-click the mouse inside the box. You'll hear a camera shutter sound, and the clip will be copied into the TNT program, which will automatically get the focus.
7. Select Edit->Copy from the menu, OR simply press Ctrl-C. That will copy the clip.
8. Go to Word.
9. Right click the mouse and select Paste, OR simply press Ctrl-V. That will paste the clip into Word.
This sure turned into thread drift.
Yea, sure sorry about that, I take the blame, hard to stay on one subject at times when actually two or more are intertwined. Enough I guess on my part of trying to get information and pass it on. I"M DONE!
Quote from: chessie4905 on November 14, 2017, 04:31:17 PM
This sure turned into thread drift.
boo hoo.
the OP seems satisfied with his need.
others benefit too.
It is not your fault Gary it was mine I was just trying to help you with some information in a hard to find manual for a 05 Eagle ps thanks for the printing tips
I have nearly 1.2 million miles on my truck. I had a 13spd single over driver transmission in it (RTO-14613A). The clutch had never been replaced-that might give you an idea how I shifted. When I had the 13spd taken out and the Allison HT740 installed, I looked at the clutch. Still had about 1/16" lining left and the flywheel was in good shape. BUT-I sure do enjoy the Allison HT740. It has what is called soft shift. When it shifts from 2-3, and 3-4, the torque converter releases for the shift then re-engages after shift. No hard shifting. Even though the Allison HT740 doesn't have overdrive (the 13spd single overdrive had a .86), with my 3.55 and 11R-24.5 rubber, I'll have an economical cruise of 55 @ 1,548rpm, comfortable cruise at 65 @ 1,830rpm or if in a hurry 75 @ 2,112. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: RJ on November 08, 2017, 05:30:42 PM... Send me your email address in a private message and I'll send you an article (in .pdf format) I wrote a few years ago about shifting these beasts. ...
RJ
Yep. I don't remember where I found this (I think it useta be online somewhere), but we had a fuel tanker truck at work with a 4 speed and I was totally vexed at driving it -- I would put it in first and drive to the airplane, put it in PTO and fuel, then switch the engine off put it in first and start up and drive it "home". I read RJ's article and was driving it and shifting it like a pro in a couple of days.
It does remove the "am I damaging something" stress to be driving Somebody Else's Vehicle, but I found everything that RJ had in that article to be correct and helpful. (Full disclosure -- I've never had to drive a manual anything in any bus, but ITSM that the principles are similar enough.)
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on November 24, 2017, 07:36:44 AM
I don't remember where I found this (I think it use to be online somewhere). . .
Bruce -It still is online, over on the BNO board, under the "Articles" tab.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
The online Eagles manual that was recommended some time ago in this post has information pertaining to Eagles in particular on pages (#15 & 16) that may help with RJ's information on gearing your bus up and down. Here is link to that manual, go to the page numbers mentioned if you have any interest.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/78693843/Eagle-Driver-s-Manual (https://www.scribd.com/doc/78693843/Eagle-Driver-s-Manual)
Quote from: RJ on November 24, 2017, 09:28:17 PMBruce -
It still is online, over on the BNO board, under the "Articles" tab. FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
I'm glad to hear that - like I said, it helped me when I needed it! Thanks, BH
RJ Long BNO article shortcut:
http://www.busnut.com/artrjl2.html (http://www.busnut.com/artrjl2.html)