I have a 81 MCI9 and was wondering if anyone has put there generator up front where the spare tire goes like the newer diesel pusher SS motor homes do? I was doing some measuring and a Onan or powertec 8000kw would just fit with some minor modifications. I would have to put it on a slide with the bumper and the piece of stainless steal above the bumper attached to the front of the slide. Any one seen or done this? pros and cons?
Thanks Jason
Jason I don't believe he has a generator in there but one of the moderators on this Board "Jack Conrad" has a MCI 8 that he made a drawer in the front with the bumper attached and it was pretty neatly done as I remember. You might get a hold of him on it.
Dave
Thanks Dave, That's what I.m thinking of, any one make a slide heavy enough to hold a 450lb generator?
Jason
Somebody does because I have seen them in coaches. Prevost puts them on their coaches for genny's maybe check with them. Or your suppliers with you being in your business might know of someone. If you find one put up a link I may need one too for mine but out the side on it.
Dave
Jason, McMaster Carr makes slides for this. I have 500lb rated slides for my twin Honda EU3000is generators on one tray.
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Just a word of caution on this project...
The photo that was posted with a front bumper attached to a drawer seems to indicate that the bumper is no longer attached to the structural members as it was from the factory.
After having recently been involved in a front-end collision in our coach, I'd be very hesitant to do anything to the structural system in front of me. The bumper on our 4106 was mounted directly to the bus through the original mounts and did a good job of deflecting the oncoming car. I'm pretty sure that it would not have protected us as well if it was mounted to a slide instead. Just too many moving parts to properly transfer the impact to the body/chassis of the vehicle.
Please be sure to run any changes you plan to make past someone with enough understanding of the structure of the vehicle to be sure that you're not putting yourselves in harms way just to install a generator.
There is no crash protection built into a 1981 MCI. The bumper is just slammed on there, and arguably, not so slammed at that...
That being said, richard's point is well taken.
Head on is easy, the bumper is against all the stuff it was before.
Some form of heavy interface to provide some "side smear" structure, check out the cone shaped pieces on some big truck hoods, and the structure that inhibits sideways motion under the rear of a big truck air suspended cab for inspiration?
But, in pondering a solution, look at what you have available in the way of structure to back it up... there isn't much there, see sentence number one...
The driver is the crumple zone, always was, always will be.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Scott and Dave:
I do have access to 500lb ones but putting a 450lb generator on them I thought might be pushing there limits. I thought about stacking 2 pair to make it more stout. I don't know what the SS manufactures use?
Richard:
I have been following your accident and it sure makes you think about what can happen in a instant, but like BW said the 9's bumper is just held on with 2 flimsy hinges and 2 rubber straps. I was thinking of making something like 2 steel tubes that slide inside of each other for guides that would actually lock the bumper and generator into the front framing of the bus, Again like BW said there isn't much up there.
Any more idea's are greatly appreciated.
Thanks Jason
People have been installing generators in the spare tire compartment for years in the MCI there is nothing there but the 2 side tow rails and a thin aluminum plate riveted to the side rails.
I say go for it Jason just watch the front axle load limit they are close in the stock form and you can adjust the load limit on the front axle with the tag axle air pressure if need be
Yes, axle loading...
Removal of the stock coach AC components help lighten the front a bit.
Influential is water tank placement, further back the better...
And never mind smaller tire options for your steer axle.
There was a coach up here with the battery bank in there on trays, enough to run the bedroom AC all night off the inverter, that busnut HATED the noise of a generator and built the coach to work the way he wanted it to...
go for it.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I would say, it would help with cooling while driving :D
I have a Westerbeke 4 cyl diesel on slides, I think its nearly 800lbs. basically 1/4" angle and some nice bearings.
The spare comp might fit an LP genny, or something small range.
I have seen 6-8D Lifeline batteries in the spare tire compartment on a MCI 9 before those are heavy they weigh 155 lbs ea so it was close to a 1000 lbs total
I was going to do the front generator drawer design. But with my transit bus, the bumper was real with big supporting struts that I didn't want to cut and the bumper is rubber covered. Instead I installed the 10kw Powertech generator next to the driver's seat like a front engine. It faces backwards (engine rear, generator front) and I had to install it with a cherry picker through the front door. I do maintenance from on top, which is not as convenient as on the side. With lead foam insulation, it is quiet enough that you don't really notice it running when the A/C's are on. With a transit, you don't have many choices like a highway bus-but it was what I could afford. Good Luck, TomC
Thanks guys I will probably go for it as soon as I find a good used generator, As far as axle weight I haven't weighed each axle but is on my list of things to do. but my tanks are all in the back luggage bay and I still have the stock AC, not sure what the spare tire and wheel weigh but it seems awful heave trying to get it in and out of that hole other than that not much I can eliminate up front for weight. Would one take air from the tag or add air to lessen the weight up front?
Jason
You would take air off the tag to lighten the front axle or add air to put more weight on it.
;D BK ;D
Thanks BK, that's what I figured, now to get it weighed.
Jason
Theoretically speaking, messing with axle weights, everything is a compromise in a bus.
Lowering the tag pressure may lighten the front, but it then makes the drives heavier.
Lightening the front may make the coach more twitchy in cross winds
Lightening the front may promote front axle sliding, both brake and steer, in slippery conditions.
If you knew the truth of what your chassis, and others like it, has carried regularly back in its service days...
A busnut has to try REALLY hard to make a problem.
I wouldn't be thinking about it at all unless you broach 13k on the front?
Keep the intended 12R tires, or equivalent, on the steer axle, and down the road.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I used something like this for my generator http://www.instructables.com/id/TRUCK-BED-DRAWERS/ (http://www.instructables.com/id/TRUCK-BED-DRAWERS/)
DIY'd some steel tube and skateboard bearings to make drawer slides that held 300lbs fully extended no problem. I have a video coming out soon with my build process. I put an ONAN 4.0 BFA generator on there where the old AC condenser was.
Neoneddy,
Thanks for the idea, not sure what kind of slides I'm going to go with, But as I ponder this idea I figured while I have the front all apart to reconstruct things I might as well upgrade my power assist steering to the integral power steering :D I told the wife now would be the time to do that project also ;) This might be turning into a all winter project. Now to call Sam Caylor and see what all it takes to do the steering upgrade.
Jason
Most slides are built using cam follower rollers they carry a lot of weight and use little space
www.mscdirect.com (http://www.mscdirect.com)
Thanks Cliff, My future SIL is a welder and crew foreman for http://www.brookvillecorp.com/ (http://www.brookvillecorp.com/) that makes mining equipment and streetcars, so I'll check with him and see what he can come up with since I'll be calling on him for some fabrication and welding.
Thanks Jason
Honestly, I personally think having more solid bulk up front can help in a collision. It's precisely why a semi truck with the engine out front protects the cab better than we are protected in our noseless buses. That generator adds more bulk and mass and I'd be just fine with that in a frontal.
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Would a generator like this work? http://classifieds.rennug.com//classifieds/viewad.cgi?adindex=4576547 (http://classifieds.rennug.com//classifieds/viewad.cgi?adindex=4576547) they say that there Onan and run at 1800 rpm.
Thanks Jason
That is a great price for the military 10K but I don't think it would fit, too high with the enclosure you would need to take it apart and then remount everything and if you have ever seen the back of the control panel it would not be an easy task to reconfigure. The military puts a lot of safe guards built into them so trying to redesign would not be easy. Would make a great back up for a home.
Thanks Steve, I emailed the guy to get me dimensions but haven't heard back yet, but did find a similar one on the e place and it was almost 5' long and 3' high so I assume this one is about the same witch is to big >:(
Jason
Jason- I was thinking the same thing as you, and went for it. Although mine is a GM, I made it work with MORryde slides. I also had to cut some of the supports for the flooring and relocate them, which worked great. I agree with the others who chimed in about worrying that the generator or slide might take a hit rather than the existing structure. My solution was to leave the original brackets in place, but pin them so the slide out brings the bumper out as well. In a crash, the bumper should still hit the same supports the factory put in. My pics are in the Bus Projects under Flightrisk. This link might help.
http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=24620.45 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=24620.45)
Weight and measurement calculations can be fun but at times aggravating. Adding or subtracting weight from each corner of the Bus Conversion affects the other ends.
Depending upon how much pre planning was undertaken, the finish Conversion can be very well balanced indeed and safe to drive ... or ... it can easily become very non safe.
Miscalculations can add up and make an unsafe balance worse. Adding heavy stuff in front of or behind axles must be taken only if some other better place is not available.
Ideally heavy appliances such as gen sets, battery banks, water and holding tanks, multiple fuel tanks and other stuff should go between the axles, not fore or aft of them.
How close does it matter? Very close is better. Weight each axle end and see what you have to begin with. Then weight or research the weight of what you want to add.
Then calculate the overall weights after all the planned stuff is installed. Do not forget the dynamic loads. Fuel, water, holding, and 6 heavy unplanned passengers add up.
Fun to play around with weights and measures. If done properly the home build Bus Conversion can be a real delight to drive hard on twisty roads. Or it can be dangerous.
Assuming that your planned chassis is immune from mis loading or over loading just because it is a bus can land one quickly into dangerous conditions. Think it through.
Your final weight may be within chassis and axle/tire limits but an exasperated combined design weight errors can still lead to a failed Bus Conversion experience.
Respectfully.
Thank you Don,
That is exactly what I want to do. Looks like it's a pretty tight fit? I started tearing my steering apart to replace with the integral steering box then I'll move over to the spare tire compartment and start in there. One question is I was looking things over tonight and wondered if I would need to leave the panel at the back of the spare tire compartment or remove it to let the generator have some open air space behind it for cooling? If I leave it in there the generator will be right up against it anyways.
Jason
The gen set is up front in mine. We usually run the gen while underway to run the roof airs, the last trip, we left it off. It was so quiet, now I'm thinking it would be nice if it was back near the main engine.
I wonder which makes more noise - the roof air or the gen set . . . . . .
Kyle, Right now I have a generac gas geny back beside the engine and I still have my O/R air so when we do use the generator it's at night and it is definitely makes a lot more noise then the ac's but it doesn't have any soundproofing around it either.
Jason
I must be very much in the minority of running my roof airs from inverter(s).
The airs only use 3000-3500 watts , gear driven alternator puts out over 6000watts .
Just looking at the Spare tire area on my nine, its not real tall. I have always admired some of the coach brands designing that gen option up front, real nice.
Jason have you took any photos of that area for anymore idea exchanges. Im not familar on differences in the 8 and 9 or other MCI models in that area.
I have a concern today if this might require raising the area in between the operator and the door.
Good day
Floyd
Neoneddy: Our main use for the generator is overnighting at Walmart or truck stop and the occasional race weekend, other than that we use the o/r air or are hooked to a pole.
Floyd: It will be a tight fit but should fit, not sure on a 8 though. I'am going to have to move some of the air valves and what ever else MCI has stuffed up in there but there's no plan on raising the floor. Like I think BW said there isn't much up front as far as steel for being in a crash, what is up there isn't much heavier than pop can material plus the rust factor I'm going to be beefing up the front area when I do this since I have some rust to fix anyways. I will take some pictures when I start on that side for sure ;)
Jason
While you are at it, run the generator exhaust thru the roof - - so much nicer when running the gen at night.
That would be nice Kyle but with the interior already finished I don't think that would be possible.
I may have opened up a can of worms with this project, once I got the aluminium bottom and back out of the spare tire compartment and started poking around I found a bunch of rusted metal :'(
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi690.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv270%2Fcccabinetry%2F20171118_100048_zpsfvajw0fe.jpg&hash=8a638e12e59fb99d5bccd664f8e2043eb34ed07d) (http://s690.photobucket.com/user/cccabinetry/media/20171118_100048_zpsfvajw0fe.jpg.html)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi690.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv270%2Fcccabinetry%2F20171118_110555_zpsfu2ibksk.jpg&hash=4b9a539616a8b3e91063b85708c51ef3fe057a10) (http://s690.photobucket.com/user/cccabinetry/media/20171118_110555_zpsfu2ibksk.jpg.html)
After I cut some of the old metal out
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi690.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv270%2Fcccabinetry%2F20171118_144508_zpswdviohue.jpg&hash=35e18076716fd18f137b607a7c292b517bd23006) (http://s690.photobucket.com/user/cccabinetry/media/20171118_144508_zpswdviohue.jpg.html)
well I guess it needed fixed anyways so no better time than the present :( nothing is a easy fix or job on these old buses.
Jason
Murphys law
Jason you opened up you had a future son in law Welder! Happens every time.
Great time to put him to work ;D
By the way is your air dryer mounted on that back side of the spare compartment. Just curious mine is, so the reason for asking.
Good day
Floyd
Floyd the airdryer was the first thing I thought of too when I saw the picture. Good time to move the dam thing. ;D
Floyd, yes it is, it was a new AD9 last year, actually if I don't put the panel back in and the generator pulls out, it shouldn't be to bad to get to for servicing.
Jason
Quote from: jmblake on November 18, 2017, 12:09:02 PM
That would be nice Kyle but with the interior already finished I don't think that would be possible.
Where there is a will, there is a way.
Newell usually runs it under the coach & then up behind the fridge. It is well insulated & wrapped in some sort of hard fiberglass type cloth for protection.
Good luck with all of it !
Harbor Freight sells a small and large needle scaler. They work great at removing rust scale so you can see what needs cleaned and painted, spots that have holes that were under the rust scale, and to clean up areas that need patched or replaced. Definitely use ear plugs.
Here: https://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?dir=asc&order=EAScore%2Cf%2CEAFeatured+Weight%2Cf%2CSale+Rank%2Cf&q=Needle+scaler (https://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?dir=asc&order=EAScore%2Cf%2CEAFeatured+Weight%2Cf%2CSale+Rank%2Cf&q=Needle+scaler)
They both work well. Large one is long and somewhat heavy. The small one works good in tight areas. I bought both for this situation, and they sell replacement needle sets for them, although they don't wear down much if at all.
air needle scaler like this
works good just do not go to nuts trying to get if all off
https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/air-needle-scaler/A-p8234387e (https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/air-needle-scaler/A-p8234387e)
dave
Quote from: kyle4501 on November 16, 2017, 06:47:45 PM
The gen set is up front in mine. We usually run the gen while underway to run the roof airs, the last trip, we left it off. It was so quiet, now I'm thinking it would be nice if it was back near the main engine.
I wonder which makes more noise - the roof air or the gen set . . . . . .
I know on mine ,those danged roof mounts drown out any noise the Genset might make!!! Danged brand new ducted Dometics .
Quote from: jmblake on November 16, 2017, 06:21:52 PM
Thank you Don,
That is exactly what I want to do. Looks like it's a pretty tight fit? I started tearing my steering apart to replace with the integral steering box then I'll move over to the spare tire compartment and start in there. One question is I was looking things over tonight and wondered if I would need to leave the panel at the back of the spare tire compartment or remove it to let the generator have some open air space behind it for cooling? If I leave it in there the generator will be right up against it anyways.
Jason
Hey there Jason- don't worry about that can of worms- you'll get through it! Yes my Onan is a tight fit. I removed a bunch of pieces of the front end without cutting, measured 267 times and thought it would fit. I brought over 4 different friends at different times, sat them in a chair in front of the bus, (my wife referred to as "contemplation station"), handed them a tape measure and asked if it would fit. All four spent a lot of time before their decision, but all said the same thing-
It should fit. Good enough for me, and I whipped out the sawzall.
As for your question about the back wall of the compartment, I left mine open for ventilation. Big mistake. I boondocked at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway last summer and all that heat from under the generator worked it's way up through the underside of the bus and negated any air conditioning I attempted. Although it's a quiet diesel, it was not. I gained permission to climb under a dozen other RVs with Onans, and found the same thing- an enclosed compartment that forced the heat down. When I got home, I pulled the generator, and framed in a box. I purchased the foil/adhesive heat and sound rolls from Summit Racing and enclosed the box. Works great now and quiet, but I won't know for sure until next summer (unless somebody jumps on the grenade and saves Arcadia).
Lastly- the discussion about weight is valid. I weighed my front and rear axles, and found that the weight of the generator would be pretty close to the 12,000 maximum. I built my roll out tray and new framing out of aluminum to minimize the weight. After completing the project, I found that adding a generator but removing the spare tire and old framing only raised my front axle 150#, still under the front axle weight rating.
Don
Thanks Don,
The can of worms is always there lurking around the corner for me anyways ;D Hopefully over the weekend I can get the future SL over and have a plan for the RR up front. I was going to make up a mock up of the generator out of thin plywood so I know exactly what we are working with.
And thanks for the tip on the back panel, I will put it back in. I never thought about the heat coming back through there and migrating up inside. and I will look up the sound rolls you mentioned since quite is better. Did you buy your generator new? I'm half afraid to buy used that I'll get a lemon. plus the price people want for the used ones, for a little more I can go new with a warranty. We should meet up sometime, I see your only a couple hours from me.
Thanks Jason
Quote from: jmblake on November 23, 2017, 08:42:15 AM
Did you buy your generator new? I'm half afraid to buy used that I'll get a lemon. plus the price people want for the used ones, for a little more I can go new with a warranty.
Thanks Jason
Jason- I bought it from a wrecked RV, short on hours and about 2/3 the cost of new. I took it to an Onan repair shop and had it serviced and given a once over. I'm not sure if it's the right way to go, but I bought all my appliances used as well. First reason is there are a lot of 1/2 finished buses out there and in the event mine became one, it wouldn't hurt as much to walk away from a worthless bus and brand new appliances. But the bigger reason is because I couldn't see banging up a new stove trying to design the best cabinets around it as I built. I bought standard sized appliances (and generator), and slowly replace them with new as the project nears completion. My generator install did have a couple clearance issues and rubbed on it's first trip so it' got some battle scars on the side. I adjusted it so it doesn't rub anymore, but the scrapes don't bother me like it would have on a new one.
One of the many nice things I like about my GMC RTS is that it came with a compartment above the engine that held the "air handler" (the heating and air conditioning unit). I removed the air handler and put a 3 clyinder Isuzu 8Kw generator in a sound box in it's place. I don't like Onans because of the electronics. My generator is all mechanical and easy to work on.
Yes I have seen yours I like where it is.
ED
Not sure if it the best way to go but instead of a rolling tray I mounted my genny on a fixed tray that I made with provisions for a set of forklift forks to remove the genny completely. My reasoning was that if it is coming out if will be coming out for a major reason and will need to be removed anyway.
As far as the exhaust, one of my customers had the local Midas make up a sectional exhaust stack that fits together and is retained via a small belt loop kind of connection at the top of his coach and the same kind of slip fit as the rest of the pieces onto the tailpipe.