Hello. I'm setting my bus up on a property and I need about 200 feet of electrical cord in order to connect it to the garage. The garage currently has its own breaker box and has 230 volts available. I believe I need 30 amps to run the bus.
Any idea what kind of cord I need to buy? The extension cords I see in Home Depot are all rated for 15 amps.
Thanks!
That depends on your intent. If you want to do it right then here's a link:
http://www.paigewire.com/pumpWireCalc.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1 (http://www.paigewire.com/pumpWireCalc.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1)
You can probably tolerate a 5% voltage drop which gave me #6 copper or #4 aluminum for your numbers.
If you just want to cobble something together I'm sure there will be lots of input following.
For a 200 ft run you need at least 8/3 H/D sells the bulk cord last I bought was about $2.50 a ft
If you have an electrical supply house near you, it may be possible to buy the cord there and get a better price that the box stores. Be sure that whatever you get is rated for outdoor use and is UV protected. Amazing what the weather can do to electrical cords in a hurry.
You say you need 30 amps to run the bus. Does that mean that you anticipate running 30-amps worth of devices in the bus or does that mean that your bus is wired for 30-amp service. Not necessarily the same thing.
Also, remember that 'standard' 30-amp service for motor homes is not 230v, it is 120v. The cord has three conductors - hot, neutral, and ground. The breaker in the garage that powers this will be a single 30-amp 120v breaker.
If your bus has 50-amp service, then you will need a four conductor cord - L1 (hot), L2 (hot), neutral, and ground. It's possible to also get 240v from 50-amp service, although that's not as common (and will create lots of discussion here).
If this was my bus and I knew that I was going to run 30-amps of draw I'd wire for 50-amp service IF the bus was set up for that. If you are only set up for 30-amp service then you might want to reconsider what you are planning to run. Never a good idea to push an electrical system near the rated max.
I'm not an electrician and would strongly recommend that you consult with an electrician before undertaking this if you are not certain what to do.
YMMV
Richard
Thanks all for your help.
A few years back I assisted an electrician wiring an RV campground and we used 10ga wire in PVC conduit. The sites were only 30 amp but there were quite a few sites on each leg. A lot is going to depend on what you actually need in the bus. If you're thinking electric heat, or electric water heater, etc, you get the drift, 10ga will be woefully inadequate. But for a temporary solution, it's a 'cheep' alternative to the proper way of doing it. And always bear in mind that opinions are like ---- and everyone's got one, some are just cheesier than others.
Will
Since the 80's we have ran everything separate feed, 3-#6's and 1-8. Try to Keep runs under 160' using separate feeder panels. 30a is jumped from one leg with #10 to separate breaker box. Wired to 100per cent of load. rdw
I was having a discussion with one of Pat's nephews, who's a journeyman electrician. We were talking about running 120' of wire around the house in order to install a 50a plug-in for the coach, since it's impossible to run it under the slab, driveway, or thru the attic.
His suggestion was similar to Richard's: Buy a 500' roll at an electrical supply house of the appropriate gauge wire; 3/4" or 1" electrical pvc conduit plus fittings; a roll of white, black, red, and green electrical tape, plus the appropriate 50a plug - preferably as a kit in an outdoor box.
Cut the 500' roll into four equal lengths. Choose a color tape, take one wire, and tape the color to the wire every 5' or so, including both ends. Repeat for each wire and each color tape. Now you've got wire for a 50a circuit: L1 (red), L2 (black), Neutral (white) and Ground (green.)
Lay out the pvc, but do not glue or connect together. Now push/pull each wire thru the conduit pieces until you reach the end. Now all that's left is to glue/connect the pvc together and make your connections to the plug and panel. He also highly recommended an additional breaker at the plug, primarily for safety reasons.
He did not recommend the bundled wire of the correct gauge that's like an extension cord, primarily due to the difficulty of pulling it thru conduit. Might be different if you get the type that's designed to be buried outdoors, however.
Whatever you do, consult with a professional electrician to help with the design and final connections was his final suggestion.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
i hope i've read this right...you do not want 200 feet of SO cord.but, if you use 60 feet of it you'll have a cord that will add value to your coach and reduce the run from the source.
direct burial, doesn't have to be buried.
you can roll it up and take it with you....
one gauge over-sized never hurt a thing.
It may benefit others here if the ground conditions can be described. IE is this a lot that had or in any event has traffic, be it autos, livestock or people.
Consulting with the specifications on conduit "fill" min/max as far as wire size and count of.
With this information it may be an owner and approved option to have a short post or concrete sono-tube built stand installed. The distance lf able to be viewed from the main disconnect could also be a benefit. These are just some questions I would ask a local pro first.
Good day
Floyd
Is this just a temporary need for this winter or a long term setup? Is it necessary to protect wire from road or other traffic?
If this is temporary then I'd get some 8 gauge single core wire in red and black. I'd run it through plastic conduit, buried underground about 6 inches as far as Your Bus. Then I'd install a TT30 on a length of steel driven into the ground with the steel acting as the earth. I'd then put a short 30A cord between the Bus and Your socket. It's pretty much what I've done here except I didn't bother burying the cable - I slipped it under a trailer and under some decking.
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Someone has to tell this Troll to stop posting B.S., Zephod you have no idea what you're talking about, not following the rules of source bonding the neutral/ground can kill someone, please shut up
Quote from: niles500 on October 13, 2017, 09:33:34 PM
Someone has to tell this Troll to stop posting B.S., Zephod you have no idea what you're talking about, not following the rules of source bonding the neutral/ground can kill someone, please shut up
You are getting very irritating and looking very silly.
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Bottom line is you should follow the code in your area for this. There are shortcuts, but unless you are very familiar with what you're doing I've always found following code on electrical systems to be the best plan. Serious consequences can result if proper grounding is not done. Without knowing the specific soil conditions, there is no way for any of us to know if a grounding rod would suffice. Could be sand/dry conditions in which case a single grounding rod is certainly inadequate. For example, when we had the house converted from fuses to breakers years ago, the electrician was required to install three separate grounding rods to ensure proper grounding. Regardless, in order for things like circuit breakers to work properly things must be wired properly with proper grounding.
Ask around. If you area is like mine, you will be able to get this done by an electrician for a reasonable price. In the past I've worked with electricians that have given me the shopping list so I could gather materials. I then would do the bulk of the prep work as he asked (get trenches dug, do a rough layout for conduit install, etc.) and he'd come to do the actual connections and inspect everything.
Too many places for really bad results messing with electrical hookups when someone is not knowledgeable. Fires at worst, equipment damage at best, and either way you'd be out of luck with the insurance company if you did the work yourself.
Richard
Quote from: Zephod on October 13, 2017, 04:33:10 PM
If this is temporary then I'd get some 8 gauge single core wire in red and black. I'd run it through plastic conduit, buried underground about 6 inches as far as Your Bus. Then I'd install a TT30 on a length of steel driven into the ground with the steel acting as the earth. I'd then put a short 30A cord between the Bus and Your socket. It's pretty much what I've done here except I didn't bother burying the cable - I slipped it under a trailer and under some decking.
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Has never been legal for simply two hot conductors and a local ground, to my knowledge. Three wire (hot, hot, neutral) with a local ground was outlawed in 2008 by NEC, when a separate Equipment Grounding Conductor (could be a fourth wire or metallic conduit) was mandated. For 120 volt service implied by the TT-30 (which is a 120 volt 30 amp outlet) white and black wires with a metallic conduit or a separate green or bare ground wire would suffice, with bonding at the source panel and GFCI breaker. PVC conduit must be trenched at least 18". Three wires and local ground/bonding is allowed if the sub panel is in a totally separate building. So the advice above is pretty bogus.
Ah. My error... I was thinking live, neutral and a local ground. I didn't realise he was putting in a 250V service.
When I put my TT30 in, I went from the main box where I wired live and neutral (via a 30a breaker I put in) to the TT30. I made the mistake of buying 10/3 and found there was nothing to connect the earth to at the box. As my TT30 was mounted on a steel bar that I'd driven 6 feet into the sandy soil with a sledge, I used the steel bar as my ground.
That's for a 30A 120v Service
While I was in the main box, I found the two live bars and saw a bare wire that made me wonder if it was an earthing bar. Turned out that the guy that put the air conditioner in a few years previously had used a 3 sure cable instead of a 4 wire cable and had used an unshielded earth wire as a second live wire. I left that well alone!
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Zephod just because you've done it ILLEGALLY & UNSAFE doesn't mean you should be publicly advising others to do the same!
Electricity is not something to fool around with, it's not as safe as d cell battery banks.
:-\ BK :-X
For Zephod - your home air conditioner is probably wired correctly. Most home air conditioners use a 240 volt feed with three wires total. They use two hot conductor (red and black) and a bare grounding conductor. They don't have a grounded (AKA neutral) conductor.
I'd learn some basic electricity. Colors matter, nomenclature matters, details matter. Your TT-30 outlet is totally not code compliant. Local grounding is not allowed for an outlet, there must be a grounding conductor (although an additional ground rod is allowed). Any ground rod must be 8 feet long and 8 feet in the ground and should have a UL approval rating stamped on the last foot of the rod. The breaker or the outlet must be GFCI for any outside outlet. 10/3 cable has three insulated conductors, black, red and white, and a bare grounding conductor, so if you used 10/3 cable you should have had ample conductors to wire it properly. Laying wire on the ground to a permanent structure (your post and outlet) is never allowed. Cable in direct contact with the ground should be UF rated, ratings for extension cords are different. All this is paraphrasing of the NEC, national/federal code in the USA. Some local codes vary a tiny bit, as does Canada/Provincial code, but some things are common everywhere.
Part of (most of) the point is to be responsible about advice given in a public forum. If you don't know, don't post. Edited for clarity.
I'm not sure about home a/c units in your area, but that's not what we're talking about here. The OP is trying to connect an RV system, not an a/c.
Again, I'm not an electrician but in my research I've found the following with regard to installing a connection for standard RV hookups.
30-amp
This is a 120v circuit. Need one hot (L1), neutral, and ground. You'll have 30 amps 120v on this system.
50-amp
This is a 120v/240v circuit (it's possible to access both 120v and 240v). Need two hot conductors (L1 & L2), neutral, and ground. You'll have 50 amps at 120v on each L1 & L2. It's possible to draw 100 amps total from this setup.
The OP was calculating a draw of about 30 amps. That might be possible on the 30-amp 120v setup, but it would be at its maximum capacity. Once loss is introduced into the system for the long length of the lines, then the max available might be less. If it was me and the coach was wired for a 50-amp connection I'd be going that route.
Might be worth having an electrician come out to do an estimate, if for no other reason than to get their opinion on what's required.
YMMV
Richard
Quote from: B_K on October 14, 2017, 05:32:08 AM
Zephod just because you've done it ILLEGALLY & UNSAFE doesn't mean you should be publicly advising others to do the same!
Electricity is not something to fool around with, it's not as safe as d cell battery banks.
:-\ BK :-X
I'm surprised that Zephod is only ignored by nine members, but that still might be the record. :-\
Quote from: DoubleEagle on October 14, 2017, 08:19:24 AM
I'm surprised that Zephod is only ignored by nine members, but that still might be the record. :-\
I'd be surprised if I weren't ignored by more than that! Don't know how to find out who ignores who or when or why, and don't care. If people don't like what I say, that is their business/problem and again I could care less.
I know I'm an asshole a lot of the time, but I'm a good asshole and that is all that really matters because my parents always told me
"I don't care what you grow up to be or do, just be or do it the best that you can!" :D BK :D
I am having a tough time following this,he was asking about extension cord for temporary power wasn't he ? if he is good at the starting point (plug) he should be good to end shouldn't he without all the ground rods and breakers.
I do it all the time to supply power to friends buses with 4-50ft thirty amp RV cords even running their AC units it hasn't been a problem over the years very seldom does it even flip a breaker on a 150ft to 200ft run
The discussion definitely took a turn for the worse. Chased it's tail in a circle and caught up with its self... :) Just making up an extension cord would be fine, it's what I do too. You just buy the right wire, the right size, put UL approved ends on and boom, done.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on October 14, 2017, 08:19:24 AM
I'm surprised that Zephod is only ignored by nine members, but that still might be the record. :-\
Honestly, I couldn't care less who ignores whom on this board. I've pretty much had it with people who deliberately misconstrue what I say, jump down my throat about everything and so on. Those that ignore me probably realise I don't give a rat's @$# about them and their comments. In fact, I'm feeling pretty much having seen all the crap aimed at me over the last week or two that I don't give a rat's @$# about this board or its members.
I have my bus and it's mostly converted. I don't need anybody's input as to what they think of my bus. I don't need anybody's input as to what they think of my design or construction skills. Nor do I need anybody's input over what they think of the way I have wired the external electrical system.
Incidentally, I notice that I was targeted for criticism over my (safe) addition to the main breaker panel while the absurdly dangerous wiring I mentioned (with a bare live wire) put in by the air conditioner engineer was ignored.
I have come to the conclusion that the vast majority of commenters on this board might be more sensible if they first remove their heads from their rectums. But I'm not going to be bothering to check back.
;D hum why not tell us how you really feel
Hi Folks, locked down for review!
See if this helps! http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=5097.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=5097.0)
Unlocked for updates.
Lets keep this thread friendly!
Nick-
He was up to twelve the other day.
Is this for a temporary short term use or permanent. What is planned to run in the coach while connected?
Hey OP here.
So this is a temporary but long term solution. For now its just to give the bus power for doing some work and running basic systems like heating in winter. Its gas heat so not too much electrical demand. I cant make the distance any shorter than 250 feet.
The bus is wired for 30 amp service. I am going to do this as an extension cord that gets plugged in at both ends. The garage where I am plugging in has both 120 and 240 available but I will be plugging into a 120 volt circuit.
I have an electrician friend say that a 10 gauge extension cord will work as long as the bus is using low amps.
Any objections to this? Obviously I would use waterproof connectors for any outdoor connections.
Thanks!
Quote from: VelvetLounger on October 16, 2017, 10:02:35 PM
Hey OP here.
So this is a temporary but long term solution. For now its just to give the bus power for doing some work and running basic systems like heating in winter. Its gas heat so not too much electrical demand. I cant make the distance any shorter than 250 feet.
The bus is wired for 30 amp service. I am going to do this as an extension cord that gets plugged in at both ends. The garage where I am plugging in has both 120 and 240 available but I will be plugging into a 120 volt circuit.
I have an electrician friend say that a 10 gauge extension cord will work as long as the bus is using low amps.
Any objections to this? Obviously I would use waterproof connectors for any outdoor connections.
Thanks!
the only downside i see is that the wire won't be much use for anything else. for a few dollars more you can have something more versatile.
10 ga. extension cords adding up to that length is going to get pretty expensive. Have you considered a portable generator? A 4 to 5 kw generator from Harbor Freight might do the job. Smaller one if your needs are lower. Just a thought. If you are going with cords, you could do that first 50,100 or 150 with 50 amp, then drop down to 30 amp #10 with adapter. Unless you don't plan on going with 50 amp in your coach, those cords can be used in future at camp grounds if hook up isn't close.
https://www.harborfreight.com/engines-generators/gas-engine-generators/4000-max-starting3200-running-watts-65-hp-212cc-generator-carb-with-gfci-outlet-protection-63089.html (https://www.harborfreight.com/engines-generators/gas-engine-generators/4000-max-starting3200-running-watts-65-hp-212cc-generator-carb-with-gfci-outlet-protection-63089.html)
Quote from: chessie4905 on October 17, 2017, 03:55:46 AM10 ga. extension cords adding up to that length is going to get pretty expensive. Have you considered a portable generator? A 4 to 5 kw generator from Harbor Freight might do the job. Smaller one if your needs are lower. Just a thought.
And if you buy a generator, you have it in the future for boondocking or other needs away from the power pole. But I wonder about the one that you linked to, Chessie. In general, those "open frame" contractor-type generators are phenomenally LOUD -- they're high-speed, non-muffled mechanical, poorly-muffled intake and exhaust, unenclosed units, and "reviews" on YouTube generally rate them as loudest of the loud. Who knows what you're going to get from YouTube, but some people have downloaded decibel readers for smart phones and even if they're not very precise, they'll give you at least a comparison and they show those units to have high noise levels.
If I were going to invest in a Harbor Freight unit (an IF that raises a whole different can of worms), I think that I'd pay approx. $175 - $200 extra and buy one of the "Honda KnockOff" models with lower noise output. That would mean the entire range of mods and maintenance (gentle breakin, change oil every 2-3 hours for the first 15 hours, change spark plug, put in a fuel filter in the fuel line, oil changes earlier than the instructions -- and if I had one, I'd go to Rotella T-6 or Mobil 1 5W-40 pure-synthetic oil) that people on YouTube recommend to make these units live more than 100 - 200 hours. But the real question is Chinese copy versus quality (Honda, Yamaha, etc.)
Quote from: chessie4905 on October 17, 2017, 03:55:46 AMIf you are going with cords, you could do that first 50,100 or 150 with 50 amp, then drop down to 30 amp #10 with adapter. Unless you don't plan on going with 50 amp in your coach, those cords can be used in future at camp grounds if hook up isn't close.
I built up a multi-strand, oil/waterproof outer insulation, 4-stranded-wire conductor, 10-gauge, 50 foot 50 Amp cord with waterproof plug and "ordinary" 14-50R 50 Amp socket for pretty close to $400 dollars. I didn't really comparison-shop the price of the bare cable and connectors and when I got through, I wondered if I'd made a mistake. But when I went back and looked at the prices of the components from other suppliers (Grainger, electrical wholesalers, on-line) it didn't look like I could have cut the cost much compared to Lowe's. Then I thought "if I'm spending this much, maybe it would be worth looking at pre-made RV-supplier units" and the first one that I found was about $550. I guess for a temporary cord, you could go with Romex for all or a good part of it but it would still be a BIG investment and the Romex part wouldn't be much good for a camp ground hook up in the future.
It's all pretty much a Sophie's Choice situation. Whatever the OP does, it's gonna hurt a lot. I'd kinda lean towards a trustworthy quiet generator or -- if I were going the wired route -- a code-compliant buried cord run to a properly installed pedestal at the work area. But none of the usable/safe alternatives are going to be cheap.
To live and work in and on the coach, your going to need some bigger wire.
Your friend was correct in low amp usage, like a light.
For your own equipment take a look or google voltage drops, this is critical.
Lets just assume you can use some entrance cable as thats about as cheap as it gets. You can do what you like but were going to assume you do it safely, so at least get bury type cable. Voltage drop for the 250 foot length is pretty important.
Good day
Floyd
The largest load you have will be the AC units
You could also look for a takeout RV generator on Craigslist. There are some pretty good deals there if you are willing to drive some. Many people will sell the generator from an RV because they never use it, has old gas and won't start, or are going to sell or junk RV. Many RV generators get little use because they travel mostly between poles ore don't like using the gas to run it. Some go pretty reasonable.
I bought a Honda 3000is a few years back. It is extremely quiet and frugal on fuel; pricey though. HF has an equivalent now at a very low price. Get it with extended warranty and break it in per instructions. Should do the job, but never actually tried to start a single roof air conditioner with it. It'll run two 1500 watt electric heaters though. I do this once a year for about an hour just to keep it ready in emergency and charge start battery so I don't need to use the rope start. I think they make #10 UF romex for burial in 250 foot rolls. You could attach socket and plug and use it for poor man's extension cord, although it should be buried in the ground some. UF has double protection for conductors,a pita when you need to strip the ends for attachments though. Remember I say could, not do.
Quote from: luvrbus on October 17, 2017, 07:21:46 AM
The largest load you have will be the AC units
He said work on the coach.
I imagine vacuum cleaners and 7-8 inch grinders, lights and saws THEN air conditioners and heat...
A piece of direct burial that long can at least be sold..if u don't bury it :)
6 ga. is the smallest 4 the best.
the "waterproof" connects better be "not cheap" ones.... I did a 300 foot lights only, 10 ga. to 70 ft 6 ga. burn't every concap/plug end and the adapters in about 2 days.
You are most definitely right about burnt connectors. Check or ask any long time RV owners using adapters at camp grounds.... Burned and overheated connectors. Many are from overloading, but some are from degradation.
825 ft of 4ga, 275 ft of 6 ga bare copper ground, pvc conduit, & RV outlet box will be about $1200. AND be good for 50amps.
A 8 ga 3 conductor soow cord will be good for 35 amps and be a little less than half that.
Generator sounds better all the time.
Quote from: chessie4905 on October 17, 2017, 05:41:21 PM
Generator sounds better all the time.
While I love my generator, I like plugging in more. Once installed, the wire requires no maintenance. 8)
I saved up to put a 50 amp plug-in for mine so I would have as many options in the future as possible.
I got my cable used - was a temp power wire at a construction job & run in conduit. I wish I had been able to get the conduit too! It was quite a bit cheaper than at the store.
Lol. I specifically had an electrician who could actually think outside of the "house" box to do my entire coach house electrical system for this reason. I don't trust myself with anything but the basic stuff. Which is why you don't see me giving advice on electrical stuff on here. I know how to wire up a 50amp socket and I did wire up my first coach, but I do know my limitations. As for Zephod, since I followed the Skoolie forum for a while last year I already saw he was tossed there for his antics over there and then he came over here. I warned you all months ago.... #toldyouso
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Quote from: Scott & Heather on October 18, 2017, 09:16:09 AM
Lol. I specifically had an electrician who could actually think outside of the "house" box to do my entire coach house electrical system for this reason. I don't trust myself with anything but the basic stuff. Which is why you don't see me giving advice on electrical stuff on here. I know how to wire up a 50amp socket and I did wire up my first coach, but I do know my limitations. As for Zephod, since I followed the Skoolie forum for a while last year I already saw he was tossed there for his antics over there and then he came over here. I warned you all months ago.... #toldyouso
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this board needs a punching bag. it's just the way it is.
Quote from: eagle19952 on October 18, 2017, 01:15:14 PM
this board needs a punching bag. it's just the way it is.
I see it a little differently - this board is full of helpful people who will go out of their way to help whenever they can.
When someone begs with almost every post, it shouldn't be a surprise when a request is accommodated. ;)
Back to OP's question -
Maybe he can find some used 8ga wire & run it in a conduit to a service pedestal at the bus. Id strongly suggest running a 220v circuit so more options are available later.
Quote from: kyle4501 on October 18, 2017, 08:00:43 PM... Id strongly suggest running a 220v circuit so more options are available later.
Yes. He said in the first post that he has 240V available to tie in to.
There is a great advantage to 240V service. With the right wire capacity and breaker box set up, you can get the equivalent of 100Amps of power - whether you run 240V appliances or split it into two 120V legs - versus 30Amps. Of course, if you don't build in a lot of power, you could join the chorus of all the people shouting and singing "I am so glad that I don't have enough power to run everything and do everything I need to do" -- which nobody said, ever.
On the other hand, OP said "temporary" so yah gotta make the call, how much do you want to limit yourself to make it temporary and cheap versus permanent and good.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on October 18, 2017, 09:44:14 PM
On the other hand, OP said "temporary" so yah gotta make the call, how much do you want to limit yourself to make it temporary and cheap versus permanent and good.
One advantage of putting the wire in conduit is that it is easier to reuse it later in another circuit. So, while it may be overkill for 'temporary' -- later he will have a head start when he installs 'permanent'. ;D
I used a 8 gauge wire ( stove wire ) in a cheep water line 1.5 " to a post and 40 amp 240 breaker at the panel = 80 amps at the pole as a temp . power supply
with a regular stove plug at the pole and plugged in the 50 amp rv plug from the rv
dave