I've been looking into electricity generation. Just out of interest.
Fuel cells... so far I've seen loads of sites that advertise them but they seem to be vaporware.
Stirling generators. These are supposed to work and exist but again, online they're vaporware.
Solar panels - chronically oversold. The sellers claim far more power generation than the real world will provide.
Wind generators - bulky, cumbersome, awkward, not very efficient and rather expensive.
Petrol/Diesel/propane generators - big, bulky fire hazards.
Have I missed anything realistic?
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A flux capacitor
Water wheel
Long extension cord plugged in to neighbors house
Power pot
nuclear reactor
HHO generator
turbine wheel and two pairs of gerbils...working 2 hrs. on 2 off.
Yeah, me thinks you have but three choices. Engine driven generator, solar, or the power pole.
I'd recommend a steam-driven generator given the amount of hot air you produce ;)
Jeremy
Don't worry about it since electricity just comes from the wall. :)
Nuclear power is as close to ideal as you can get but just say the word nuclear and people will run to the basement and scream.
No matter how you propose to generate electricity, people will find fault.
Sad.
Bicycle with an alternator instead of a rear wheel?
Stick with the tried and true. Diesel genny and some solar! You can expect to get about 50% at least with solar, if you size your componets right out get about 80% at the right angle. Generators say 12Kw, they make 12Kw. Just dont run your bus dry!
Ditto on the public option. plug it into the pole. Cheapest and easiest of all, you forgot that one.
I thought I'd throw it out there. What I have is solar for ventilation, phone/tablet charging and door lock. I have plug in for cooking, water heating, fridge or for boondocking, a portable gas cooker that also can be used to heat water and a cooler powered by ice.
I thought about generators etc but there are none small enough. If I was to use a microwave while boondocking, it wouldn't be a problem to have a tiny generator producing 250W for an hour or so while filling sufficient supercaps to power a microwave for 15 minutes (1200w or 300wh).
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RVing has been going on since Henry Fords days,,many millions of folks over the years with improvements add nausium,,,,,and you still want to re-invent the wheel.>>>Dan
Quote from: Utahclaimjumper on October 10, 2017, 02:44:05 PM
RVing has been going on since Henry Fords days,,many millions of folks over the years with improvements add nausium,,,,,and you still want to re-invent the wheel.>>>Dan
Without oddballs like me asking the questions and investigating alternatives, wheels would still be square...
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fanswers.unity3d.com%2Fstorage%2Ftemp%2F32546-squarewheels.jpg&hash=9d745bd612ff15b74ebb87b892931882d6615030)
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Out of curiosity, what's your end goal with the bus?
I understand minimizing cost and all, but when you start mentioning that you'd want a 250w generator I'm confused. Then you add the cost of supercaps and whatever is necessary to connect them, and you've spent more than I could get a used 2500w generator at a thrift store.
If you're doing this to prove you can, then kudos. Otherwise, seems like the tried and true approach is going to give the most bang for the buck. Literally and figuratively, that is.
Almost seems like you could build yourself a decent solar oven for only a couple of dollars of scavenged parts and be done with it rather than trying to run a microwave off supercaps.
Richard
Well, a 250W generator would be ultra compact. That's worth having. Supercaps release loads of power quickly. Just what you need to power a microwave. There are loads of videos on YouTube of people replacing car batteries with supercaps and even one of somebody with such a device powered from a hand crank.
I really don't need massive amounts of power. A single 35Ah battery is sufficient for my ventilation etc.
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How is a diesel generator any more fire prone than the diesel engine that gets your bus down the road? My diesel generator is in a compartment directly underneath some of the bunks in my bus. We don't have any issues sleeping while the generator is purring away under our feet. It is pretty quiet and is white noise that doesn't cause sleeping issues.
Troll ::)
Quote from: belfert on October 10, 2017, 07:31:21 PM
How is a diesel generator any more fire prone than the diesel engine that gets your bus down the road? My diesel generator is in a compartment directly underneath some of the bunks in my bus. We don't have any issues sleeping while the generator is purring away under our feet. It is pretty quiet and is white noise that doesn't cause sleeping issues.
The driving engine is better ventilated and is out the front on my bus away from the cabin. Now the reason I have a front engined Bus is because I see far fewer engine fires on front engined busses than rear engined. Also, rear engine fires are far more devastating. Same with gas engines. I've seen enough engine fires in my life.
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Are there really such things as diesel engine fires? I suppose it's possible if a fuel line ruptures and sprays a mist of diesel onto an existing open flame, but other than that it's pretty difficult to get diesel to burn unless other than under temperature and pressure. I think most 'rear engined bus fires' are caused by tyres and brakes catching fire rather than the engine
Regarding ultra-small generators, bear in mind that the efficiency of an engine is directly related to it's size and thus an engine small enough to be correctly sized for a 250w generator would be wastefully inefficient. The smallest suitcase generators you can get don't go much below 800w - and are cheap to buy and would suit your needs ideally. Instead of fretting about generating more power than you need just use the excess to put charge into an old school lead acid battery at the same time. And forget about super-capacitors - hopelessly inappropriate for powering microwaves!
Jeremy
PS - Are you sure the real reason you bought a front-engined bus wasn't because they are just dirt cheap, rather than because of some grandiose theories about safety?
Here's some information on Bus fires
http://wjbf.com/2017/06/14/modifications-to-south-carolinas-fire-prone-school-buses-not-making-fleet-safer/
I've seen so called brake fires. They're nothing to write home about. Tyres only catch fire if they're run for long enough after deflation.
I got a front engine Bus because that's what I wanted. Lots of sellers were trying to push rear engined but no.
I'd still prefer a small generator - not those clunky great big "suitcase" affairs.
I don't know where you're going with batteries but to run a microwave a 12v battery would just burst into flames with the current required. Supercaps can provide loads of current for short periods.
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How does a brake fire have anything to do with a diesel engine or diesel generator? A diesel generator isn't going to cause a brake fire. I very nearly had a brake fire once because my brake actuator stopped retracting fully. Not fun.
About the smallest reliable generator you will find is around 1,000 watts. And, yes, you can run a microwave from 12 volt batteries. I do it all the time. I have a good size bank of AGM batteries that I got for free because the equipment was being scrapped.
Guys, just accept the fact that Zephod is trying to solve different problems than most of us are. Most of us are trying to duplicate a modern home environment on a consistent and uninterrupted basis, in a bus, while traveling, boondocking, or in a serviced site. Zephod is trying to differentiate minimalist solutions on an intermittent basis, and his vision of success is therefore different. I think his ideas are kind of impractical, his methods and engineering is different from what I would do, but I'm not trying to run a microwave to 5 to 15 minutes from almost no solar and a tiny generator. Which I am positive a supercap based system could do. How, I don't know, I think the control electronics and voltage conversion are going to be pretty sophisticated. The smallest commercial generator is rated at 800 watts peak, which means around 400 watts continuous for best fuel efficiency, which is damn close to 250 watts. I say go for it! The worst that can happen is we learn something...
Quote from: Zephod on October 11, 2017, 06:25:44 AM
Here's some information on Bus fires
http://wjbf.com/2017/06/14/modifications-to-south-carolinas-fire-prone-school-buses-not-making-fleet-safer/ (http://wjbf.com/2017/06/14/modifications-to-south-carolinas-fire-prone-school-buses-not-making-fleet-safer/)
That appears to be all about electrical fires
Quote from: Zephod on October 11, 2017, 06:25:44 AM
I'd still prefer a small generator - not those clunky great big "suitcase" affairs.
You may be thinking of something else - suitcase generators are small lightweight things designed to be carried by hand:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.energygeneratorhire.co.uk%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Fisotope_portfolio_400x225%2Fpublic%2Feu10i.jpg%3Fitok%3DfvRF-34J&hash=ce4dd225819e48b1b48cc237f059f740a86bdac8)
Quote from: Zephod on October 11, 2017, 06:25:44 AM
I don't know where you're going with batteries but to run a microwave a 12v battery would just burst into flames with the current required.
Huh?
Jeremy
Quote from: bevans6 on October 11, 2017, 08:10:32 AM
Guys, just accept the fact that Zephod is trying to solve different problems than most of us are. Most of us are trying to duplicate a modern home environment on a consistent and uninterrupted basis, in a bus, while traveling, boondocking, or in a serviced site. Zephod is trying to differentiate minimalist solutions on an intermittent basis, and his vision of success is therefore different. I think his ideas are kind of impractical, his methods and engineering is different from what I would do, but I'm not trying to run a microwave to 5 to 15 minutes from almost no solar and a tiny generator. Which I am positive a supercap based system could do. How, I don't know, I think the control electronics and voltage conversion are going to be pretty sophisticated. The smallest commercial generator is rated at 800 watts peak, which means around 400 watts continuous for best fuel efficiency, which is damn close to 250 watts. I say go for it! The worst that can happen is we learn something...
I was brought up with intermittent electricity, no air conditioning, no fridge, no freezer, no phone, no car, oil fueled heating. I am therefore not one of the electricity junkies that seems to be so prevalent these days.
A microwave running off 1200W assuming no losses (which ain't gonna happen) would need 10A off 120v or 100A off 12v. Most 12v batteries will provide a maximum of 60A over a prolonged period such as 15 minutes. Though many batteries claim 600A etc that's only for a few seconds. More than that and the battery would rapidly become hot, emit gasses and catch fire.
A super-cap by comparison would provide maximum amperage consistently for the length of the charge. I've seen people pairing a supercap setup with a 12v burglar alarm better for car starting.
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I am surprised any of us drive these death traps. With diesels in the rear, on board generators, and god forbid, batteries powering our microwaves, all our busses should have burst into flames long ago!
Matt
Quote from: Jeremy on October 11, 2017, 08:14:00 AM
That appears to be all about electrical fires
You may be thinking of something else - suitcase generators are small lightweight things designed to be carried by hand:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.energygeneratorhire.co.uk%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Fisotope_portfolio_400x225%2Fpublic%2Feu10i.jpg%3Fitok%3DfvRF-34J&hash=ce4dd225819e48b1b48cc237f059f740a86bdac8)
Huh?
Jeremy
Think you need to reread the article. Electrical fires were in the minority. Most were turbocharger fires.
Yup. Clunky great big Harbor Freight suitcase generator. For the weight that darned thing is, I'd expect way more power. I'm looking at much smaller solutions than that. I don't need more than 250W and certainly have no use for 120v in a generator.
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Your ipad must have a translation feature you aren't familiar with. The picture on my computer is clearly of a Honda eu10i, weight 13kgs.
If you really want to read about someone doing some innovative work to a bus house electric system, check this thread. It's really long and way over my pay grade but he is running his entire house system off battery: and, he will be able to recharge in about 2 hours when he gets done. It's impressive!
http://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28126 (http://www.wanderlodgeownersgroup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28126)
TOM
Quote from: Zephod on October 11, 2017, 09:26:33 AM
I don't need more than 250W and certainly have no use for 120v in a generator.
Apart from, I don't know, maybe something like...perhaps ...hmm...a microwave? :D
Jeremy
Quote from: Jeremy on October 11, 2017, 10:12:24 AM
Apart from, I don't know, maybe something like...perhaps ...hmm...a microwave? :D
Jeremy
Sure... I can put an inverter to power a microwave but... I'll end up using a camp cooker for boondocking. Realistically, I'm not going to be putting in a generator over 250W and not unless I get supercaps to run it. Rest of the time I'll likely use plug in.
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My question is,,do you actually USE the bus,,? for anything,? for any continuous period of camping time.? And obviously NO ONE would be with you.>>>D
Quote from: Utahclaimjumper on October 11, 2017, 03:50:11 PM
My question is,,do you actually USE the bus,,? for anything,? for any continuous period of camping time.? And obviously NO ONE would be with you.>>>D
I'm planning to live in it, solo. That's my whole reason for buying it.
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And my question is, what advantages does your set up have over a 1/2 ton pickup and a tent? A good tent will have the ventilation you are looking for and an even smaller 100W generator will power all of your electrical needs. All the bus conversions I have seen include all the amenities of home, while yours is set up with none of the amenities of a home.
Matt
Quote from: Beluga Bus on October 11, 2017, 04:41:11 PM
And my question is, what advantages does your set up have over a 1/2 ton pickup and a tent? A good tent will have the ventilation you are looking for and an even smaller 100W generator will power all of your electrical needs. All the bus conversions I have seen include all the amenities of home, while yours is set up with none of the amenities of a home.
Matt
My bus is a bit more secure than a tent and will hold all I need. My time where I am is finite. The bus gives me mobility.
I don't need a lot of the electrical junk. My ventilation and phone/tablet charging are solar. The tablet connected via WiFi to the phone or available WiFi provides communications and entertainment. Other than that, I have a crate of books.
I think what a lot of you can't grasp is that while I'd like to use a microwave, electric water heater etc, I don't really care too much whether they're there or not.
Like I said, I grew up with irregular electricity supply. Blackouts were frequent and fir a period electricity was only available during certain hours. I grew up with no AC, no fridge, no freezer, no phone, no car and no TV. Dad had a Radio but that was it.
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Back in the 70s there were some really great books out about being self-sufficient living on a small boat. They included making drinking water, growing greenery, and ways to cook food. There was also a lot of information in these books on providing electrical power on a limited scale. I followed the instructions in one of these books to create a solar water desalinization panel. It worked and was pretty cool.
While many years have passed since then, many of the concepts from these old books would probably hold true and still provide lots of information. We've got some new technology as far as electronics goes, but I bet you'd find lots of helpful information in books from the 'back to earth' movements from the 70s. They can probably be picked up for pennies at a used book store or thrift store, and I'm sure much of their information is online somewhere. Same goes for Popular Science and Popular Mechanics magazines from the 50s and 60s. Sounds like these things would be right up your alley and might give you some launching points you can adapt to use with some of the more modern equipment and tools on the market today.
Not sure if you have explored the Maker Movement, but if there is a Maker Space near you it might also provide some great ideas for creating some of the things you want to make.
One stray thought I had while reading this thread (and your others) with the talk about the heat from above, have you thought of lining the top center of your roof with black painted pipes to provide hot water for you? Would not be noticeable from the ground, and I bet you could easily heat 20 or more gallons on your roof. A simple low-amp pump could easily cycle the water from an insulated holding tank to the roof unit. Similar devices are found on the roof of nearly all home in parts of the mid-east and provide most of the domestic hot water. This could even be done either with a hand pump or a simple gravity circulation setup.
Just some food for thought.
Richard
Richard, back where I come from, the local council installed a free solar shower at the beach. It was very popular.
Speaking of the Mid East, their AC methods haven't caught on yet the running costs are zero. Only good for buildings but even so...
There is a wealth of good information in older books that's totally missing from more modern versions. Probably my favorite place for secondhand books is a abebooks.com. My fav book from there so far is the 1983 handbook of chemistry and physics that cost $12 and change, shipped from Canada. The current edition at the time was $180.
An alternative to the solar arrangement is what a buddy of mine does on his farm in the south of France. He has a black plastic bucket that he fills with water. He puts a sheet of glass over the top and leaves it in the sun for a few hours. Free hit water!
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Z, Like you, I have found the Handbook of chemistry and Physics to be a fascinating publication. Mine is the forty fourth edition published in 1962. I've compared it to the 97th edition (98th now available) and found it to be quite similar. Despite having a dual major of biology and chemistry in college I often find I can't quite understand all of the entries -- not enough math background I suppose. For me, the most interesting and useful section is the conversion tables which I use with some regularity Jack
Quote from: oltrunt on October 12, 2017, 10:07:08 AM
Z, Like you, I have found the Handbook of chemistry and Physics to be a fascinating publication. Mine is the forty fourth edition published in 1962. I've compared it to the 97th edition (98th now available) and found it to be quite similar. Despite having a dual major of biology and chemistry in college I often find I can't quite understand all of the entries -- not enough math background I suppose. For me, the most interesting and useful section is the conversion tables which I use with some regularity Jack
I used mine as a reference work fir a book I wrote on high speed photography. I found high speed photography and photonics by ray skipped about a bit. He went into detail on subject areas he was unfamiliar with and it showed so I bought this to fill in the gaps.
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