Right now you can get busses devoid of electronic crap. I'm not a fan of any of this electronic crap they like to cram into engines these days.
As an example, in my daily life I drive an Xterra. In the 11 years I've had and driven this car, the things that have failed have been the crappy electrical garbage...
Windscreen washer pump
Fuel level sensor
Oil pressure sensor
Cam shaft sensor
The only guys in town with a cam shaft sensor were the flaming dealers. By the time I was out of there, they had had to be told very firmly no to a whole shopping list they wanted to do. One other customer had walked out when they'd tried a shopping list on him.
My eventual cost $329 for a $1.28 Hall effect sensor in a fancy plastic mount!
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Well unless you want to walk or buy a horse and buggy, electrical components on vehicles have been the norm just about forever now. I don't know what the problem is why some people have so much trouble with certain vehicles but I have had next to no trouble electrical and electronic areas and I've had mine since new in '04 and now has 156000.
Quote from: CrabbyMilton on September 26, 2017, 03:45:27 AMWell unless you want to walk or buy a horse and buggy, electrical components on vehicles have been the norm just about forever now. I don't know what the problem is why some people have so much trouble with certain vehicles but I have had next to no trouble electrical and electronic areas and I've had mine since new in '04 and now has 156000.
Ditto on my '03 TDi Jetta with 440K miles. Of course, the ventilation system that I rigged up so I didn't have to use the A/C -- using boat extractor fans and computer pancakes -- has had to have brushes replaced in the motors a few times, but that's not "electronic"!
YMMV!
Just last year i bought a 92 Ford Ranger....first time that i bought anything newer than the 1980s. In another decade or two maybe i will buy something from this century. ;D
I daily drive a 1988 International S1654 MDT. 7.3L IDI diesel. No electronics on it other than the alternator. Trouble free driving, for sure. But like everything you have to maintain it. I've replaced the water pump and fan clutch in the past 10k. Also have to keep antifreeze SCAs up or the cylinder walls will develop pinholes into the water jacket, and the block will be junk. Also have to keep an eye on glow plugs as ether is a no-no, and know that you're going to need an injection pump and injectors every 100k miles. Those are the breaks, but they are known.
Now, to be fair, I drive things until the wheels fall off. My DD International has 207k (retired uhaul), my wife's '02 suburban has what, 225k, and the 5303 has who knows how many miles on it. I just retired a '99 tahoe with 249k, blown head gaskets.
Quote from: j.m.jackson on September 26, 2017, 08:16:27 AM
I daily drive a 1988 International S1654 MDT. 7.3L IDI diesel. No electronics on it other than the alternator. Trouble free driving, for sure.
I drive daily a Thomas (freighter chassis) and the electronics have glitches whereby fir no reason all the lights on the switch console will flash on fir half a second.
The led tail lights are terrible - always having to be replaced
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Those are quality issues. When people buy from the lowest bidder (chinese), I'm not sure what they are expecting. Especially on the solid state LED devices, the LED almost never dies (unless it's overdriven for brightness). It's the PCB and solder. Also, the RHoS regs that look the Pb out of solder didn't help either.
Lol I see buses and trucks with a million miles on electronic engines and never had problem 95% of the problems that do accrue are owners fault that have made some modification or wash the engine on a regular basis but it can be frustrating chasing a bad wire BTDT
Quote from: j.m.jackson on September 26, 2017, 08:33:53 AM
Those are quality issues. When people buy from the lowest bidder (chinese), I'm not sure what they are expecting. Especially on the solid state LED devices, the LED almost never dies (unless it's overdriven for brightness). It's the PCB and solder. Also, the RHoS regs that look the Pb out of solder didn't help either.
I know my school district buys parts only through approved suppliers. They don't buy dodgy parts off eBay.
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Quote from: luvrbus on September 26, 2017, 08:49:17 AM
Lol I see buses and trucks with a million miles and never had problem 95% of the problems that do accrue are owners fault that have made some modification or wash the engine on a regular basis but it can be frustrating chasing a bad wire BTDT
I never ever had problems with my older non electronic vehicles... my Bedford HA, my Suzuki Alto FX (1983) etc
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You think their suppliers aren't getting the stuff from China?
Look and see if you can see who made those lights on the back of your service bus that give you problems, it should be stamped in the plastic on the outside.
You can bash China all you want and I won't stand in your way and will applaud. However, at times you have to take the perspective from the masses who don't care where their stuff comes from just so long as it's there in front of their face.
It does fly in the face of logic that well established companies elect to use crappy suppliers, put their name on the product, and then are surprised that they have PO'd customers. Can't really say it's greed since you can't make money if nobody is buying your product and the factory closes because everybody knows you stink.
Then you have a company like BCI. Looked like a beautiful coach but horrible quality. Then they say that the Chinese are supposed to be such brilliant people and come up with crap like that.
Older vehicles have fewer problems with electronics because they have fewer electronics. Pretty simple.
Of course, having fewer electronics means that there are fewer of the convenience features that many people have come to expect.
Personally, I am okay with our 1964 PD4106 and its mechanical electrical system. The other half, of course, is somewhat difficult to keep happy when we're surrounded at parks and campgrounds by all the RVs with the latest and greatest toys and automated systems.
Having a vehicle with no electronics is no guarantee of problem-free driving though. My '84 step van is built with a Grumman body on a Ford chassis and has no electronics, no PCBs, and no computer chips. That said, my first year with it was plagued by constant problems with the electrical system due to corroded and worn contacts, terminals, relays, etc. With no on-board diagnostics the process to repair was purely one of hide-and-seek looking for problems. Took the better part of a year to get all the bugs worked out and for all the gauges and lights to work properly. My 4106 is doing better, but there has still been a fair amount of seeking out electrical problems.
And, when you have a vehicle with no electronics there is always the added time necessary for manual adjusting and calibrating - things an electronic system can auto correct on the fly like adjusting the combustion for altitude and oxygen content. Kind of six of one vs half dozen of the other...
Regarding electrical parts made in China...they don't have the market cornered on badly made parts. Has anyone ever owned a vehicle with Lucas electric parts on it?
Richard
My Eagle is non DDEC. I wish it had that.
When you are dealing with a 6.5mpg engine versus 9mpg (or better) it's like spending money for rear end changes, probably not worth it for the miles most put on their conversions. If you have a fleet of commercial vehicles a .5mpg improvement in fuel costs adds up pretty nicely at the end of the year.
Mechanics with much knowledge of DD two strokes is like finding repairmen for intergalactic vehicles, there aren't many of them. There are a lot of whiz kids that can plug in a cord and quickly pinpoint a problem.
I too never bought new vehicles. The last new pickup I bought was a 05 extended cab Silverado 4x4, best fuel mileage at 65mph was 17.5mpg. I bought a lightly used demonstrator 14 High Country crew cab 4x4. Best fuel mileage was about 20mpg. This year I bought a new 17 High Country Crew cab 4x4 that gets 24.5 routinely at 80mph, (The new speed limit in South Dakota) The best ever on a fuel tank load was 31.5!
All of these were 1500s. The 05 had the 4.8 liter v8. The two Hi Countrys have 5.3 liters.
Electronics enable my new truck to operate as a v4 when v8 is not needed. The only indication of whether it is operating as v4 or v8 is the little indicator in the dash panel changes. There is no sound, power or other indication either direction.
Electronics! Any questions?
The more links in a chain, the greater the chance of having a link fail.
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Quote from: akroyaleagle on September 26, 2017, 01:41:29 PM
My Eagle is non DDEC. I wish it had that.
When you are dealing with a 6.5mpg engine versus 9mpg (or better) it's like spending money for rear end changes, probably not worth it for the miles most put on their conversions. If you have a fleet of commercial vehicles a .5mpg improvement in fuel costs adds up pretty nicely at the end of the year.
Mechanics with much knowledge of DD two strokes is like finding repairmen for intergalactic vehicles, there aren't many of them. There are a lot of whiz kids that can plug in a cord and quickly pinpoint a problem.
I too never bought new vehicles. The last new pickup I bought was a 05 extended cab Silverado 4x4, best fuel mileage at 65mph was 17.5mpg. I bought a lightly used demonstrator 14 High Country crew cab 4x4. Best fuel mileage was about 20mpg. This year I bought a new 17 High Country Crew cab 4x4 that gets 24.5 routinely at 80mph, (The new speed limit in South Dakota) The best ever on a fuel tank load was 31.5!
All of these were 1500s. The 05 had the 4.8 liter v8. The two Hi Countrys have 5.3 liters.
Electronics enable my new truck to operate as a v4 when v8 is not needed. The only indication of whether it is operating as v4 or v8 is the little indicator in the dash panel changes. There is no sound, power or other indication either direction.
Electronics! Any questions?
I liked your comment about the cylinder deactivation. I never drove one but I rode in a RAM 1500 that had it. If you listen carefully, you can hear it change from a V8 to a V4.
Still smooth though.
If you listen carefully, you can hear it change from a V8 to a V4.
Must have spent too much time around DDs, flying helicopters, or in the Airborne Infantry. I don't hear anything.
For the miles I am able to put on mine for the next 10 years, If my mileage went from 6 to 12 mpg, it wouldn't make any difference much. . . . Not enough time off from work to get to use it more. :'(
10,000 miles at 6mpg = 1,667 gallons -- at 12mpg = 833 gallons.
At $2.5/gal, that is $2083.
If that made a big difference in my budget, I wouldn't be able to properly maintain the coach . . . . .
Paying cash for an older, high end coach has allowed more $$ in my pocket to pay for maintenance & fuel as it is needed.
I wouldn't be able to that if I had a monthly loan payment. . . .
I had an ignition relay strand me in the New Mexican desert for 4 days last year...a simple relay, something every single car built in my lifetime has in it. So I guess you win some and you lose some.
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My bus has a Series 60 with DDEC III in it. I have never had a problem with the electronics on the engine. Remember, there are probably hundreds of thousands of Series 60 on the road with few electronics issues. Every semi tractor on the road has had an electronic engine for about the last 20 years.
I love the computerized stuff. Cool how it all works. I'm even getting familiar with the multiplex wiring thanks to my bus and my 03 retrobird. All that said, I did spring for a dealer level diagnostic system for my bus. It covers engine, trans, wiring diagrams and ABS brakes along with computer reprograming capabilities. $1500 but Oh Well.
I'll probably catch hell for this but bring on the codes! Jack
I can build a car from nuts, bolts, and parts in a pile, without a manual. Mind you, it's a 1962 Austin Mini, but I can do it, and a whole lot of other cars of that era. I just bought a brand new Mustang, 2017 6 speed manual transmission, I figure my last shot at a decent 300 hp car that handles with a manual transmission. I bought an 8 year all maintenance package for it. Oil changes, they put my winter tires on, everything included. Why? The package includes brakes and clutches. I have changed more brake pads and calipers in the last five years than in the previous 30, due to rusted pad backing plates and stuck pistons. I haven't worn out a clutch in my life, but I have changed my share of throw-out and pilot bearings that plain dried out. Don't even get me started on oxygen sensors, cam sensors, and all the other crap that lets my nice little V-6 put out more horsepower than the best of the 1970's, 80's, 90's and get damn decent fuel mileage while it does it.
Quote from: Ed Hackenbruch on September 26, 2017, 07:41:46 AM
Just last year i bought a 92 Ford Ranger....first time that i bought anything newer than the 1980s. In another decade or two maybe i will buy something from this century. ;D
Those will not survive...best find an late 70's....
My parents just bought a 2017 Hyundai Sonata hybrid with every bell and whistle. I wonder how long the car will last without troubles? It has a lifetime no mileage limit warranty on the hybrid battery. If the car is still around in 20 years and the hybrid battery fails will Hyundai really be able to replace it at that time?
You've had four minor components (some just electrical and not electronic) fail in eleven years and you're all upset about and have decided to condemn all modern vehicles as a result? Just how much more grief would an old-style carburettor, manual choke, mechanical distributor, mechanical fuel pump etc etc have given you in that time? What about the significantly poorer gas mileage and less reliable starting you'd get on a vehicle with those systems rather than modern electronics?
I don't like many of the unnecessary electronic systems that some cars now have either, but none of the components in your list are unnecessary - indeed they and much more are all essential basic requirements for a vehicle to be legally manufactured and sold now, so quit griping about this stuff and just get with the programme.
Jeremy
The Caterpillar 3406B (mechanical) in my truck is still being made as the 3406C-basically the same engine with minor differences. Mainly because 3rd world countries do not want electronics for pumps or generators. Good Luck, TomC
My experience of electronics is very poor. Phones and tablets that frequently don't last a year before they die, led lighting that fails quickly - sometimes within days etc. I say leave the clever dick electronic garbage out of things.
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Quote from: Zephod on September 27, 2017, 11:20:24 AM
My experience of electronics is very poor. Phones and tablets that frequently don't last a year before they die, led lighting that fails quickly - sometimes within days etc. I say leave the clever dick electronic garbage out of things.
If you buy bottom of the line LED bulbs and electronics they will fail prematurely. My iPhone 6 plus was bought in Sept/Oct 2014 and is still working just fine. I equipped my entire house with brand name LED bulbs in 2014 and not one has gone out. I have a Dell corporate laptop I bought in 2011 that is still working just fine today and is still fast enough for my needs.
I use the buy one, cry once philosophy on most purchases including electronics. I find that buying medium to high end is cheaper over time than buying low end over and over again. I don't chase technology by replacing electronics just to have the latest and greatest.
My car is a 2016, but it doesn't have most of the fancy electronics because I bought the base model without all that stuff. Some of the stuff would be nice to have, but not for $5,000 to $10,000 more. I paid less for a mini-van than most pay for an average family sedan.
Why does everybody assume I buy cheap stuff? I just don't get that! I've had expensive and cheap and while the cheap stuff does flake out at a faster pace, the higher end stuff isn't far behind it. Example - my 2007 MacBook became flaky in 2013. My Nexus 7 (again not a cheapo tablet) suddenly refused to turn on then decided to reformat itself and refuse to reboot from the factory image - all without my doing anything to cause it. Then there are LED bulbs, flashlights, lanterns. Then wristwatches - all of those flake out fairly randomly. Price has zero to do with it really.
For all those reasons I am very guarded about electronics and refuse to be tempted by most.
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Zephod, I assume you buy cheap stuff because you talk about how little you have spent on your bus conversion. I have probably spent more money on my bus this year than you spent on your entire conversion other than the shell. You used a cheap $10 to $20 Chinese solar controller.
It should be no surprise that a laptop fails after six years. They generally take a lot of abuse if you actually carry them around like they are intended. My employer budgets to replace laptops every four to five years because they start to fail rapidly after that point. Desktops are kept longer because they take less abuse.
The Caterpillar 3406B (mechanical) in my truck is still being made as the 3406C-basically the same engine with minor differences. Mainly because 3rd world countries do not want electronics for pumps or generators. Good Luck, TomC
Tom, my first choice when I repowered was a 3406B.
I believe Caterpillar might have been pretty nice, mostly because of their honest horsepower compared to DD and Cummins. I have been told that DD measures HP at the flywheel end of the crank, Cat where the rubber meets the road and Cummins somewhere in between. None of that may be true! But I heard it from a respected long time diesel truck mechanic a long time ago. (That was a lot of brain cells ago too!)
The only reason I didn't go with the Cat was my Eagle would have been about a foot and a half too short or I would have to have re-engineered the miter box out.
I went with a Reliabilt remanned to 2000 specs, 8V92TA with 9A98 injectors. It has served me very well for over 17 years.
I still like the 3406B!
Quote from: belfert on September 27, 2017, 02:31:52 PMZephod, I assume you buy cheap stuff because you talk about how little you have spent on your bus conversion. I have probably spent more money on my bus this year than you spent on your entire conversion other than the shell. You used a cheap $10 to $20 Chinese solar controller.
It should be no surprise that a laptop fails after six years. They generally take a lot of abuse if you actually carry them around like they are intended. My employer budgets to replace laptops every four to five years because they start to fail rapidly after that point. Desktops are kept longer because they take less abuse.
My laptop was used as a desktop. Never moved.
I see a lot of charge controllers that look identical, all claiming to be made other places but the reality is that 90% are Chinese whatever it says on the box. That's where paying more gets silly if your Made in Canada box only has a Made in Canada sticker but the rest was made in China.
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Quote from: Zephod on September 27, 2017, 01:18:15 PM
Why does everybody assume I buy cheap stuff? I just don't get that!
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I really don't have a clue. ;D
My old 1974 Crown Supercoach had no electronics. Our old 1984, (kinda) 4 door VW Rabbit Diesel had no electronics either. Both could be bump started if necessary.
In fact the Rabbit could be cold weather started just by pushing it out the driveway to the hilly main street. Coasting down hill spinning the mill. Then hit the fuel switch.
Just got a new cell phone and am trying to find time to read and GROK the owners manual. So many neat cool functions. Times they are a changin" I must adapt.
I remember bump starting cars. I used to park on a hill when I had a dead battery just so I could bump start. Not sure I can do that with my Carpenter as it has an automatic box.
I bought a $29 smart phone and use it as a phone and a wifi hotspot. I don't bother with any other feature.
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Quote from: Zephod on September 27, 2017, 04:09:24 PM
That's where paying more gets silly if your Made in Canada box only has a Made in Canada sticker but the rest was made in China.
Iphone 10s are made in China, but so is the $0.99 disposable junk sold on market stalls. You need to be better at discerning whether something is a quality item than simply judging it on whether the word 'China' appears on the box somewhere.
Jeremy
Where's the H3 Hummer made, look closely Made in China under license for GM after the sold the Plant equipment to them when it went belly up
They only have a few years to go before GM stop supplying the US running gear and then China produce their own
All the major Auto brands are there GMChina Ford China also look at all the small GM cars at the moment come out of South Korea GM Daewoo and all the small Utes come out of Thialand
James
Quote from: Zephod on September 27, 2017, 04:09:24 PM
... all claiming to be made other places but the reality is that 90% are Chinese whatever it says on the box...
I think that this is part of your problem. If you assume that everything is made in China and is all junk and therefore buy the cheapest of the bunch, you're setting yourself up for constant failure.
There are a lot of knock-off goods being made, true. I once got taken by a replacement battery for my Samsung phone that claimed to be OEM. It looked just like, felt just like, and was packaged just like. Unfortunately, it certainly didn't function just like. It wasn't until I did a little research that I was able to tell the difference between the actual Samsung product and the knockoff.
This is the main reason that I try as much as possible to buy all mission-critical items from retailers or vendors I know and trust. They will be buying through legitimate channels and there's a much higher likelihood of getting quality merchandise. Place of manufacture is not as important as quality of manufacture, and that depends largely on who ordered and spec'd the merchandise from the factory. It costs more to shop this way, but in the end it's often cheaper due to longer life and fewer failures.
Whenever I buy from online box stores, Amazon, eBay, etc I consider the item to be disposable. I'll only buy expensive and/or important items online if I'm able to do the necessary research to be reasonably certain that the item is quality. That said, I've returned more than a few things for poor quality.
Richard
Try this Texas Instruments made in China the 1st Texas Instrument scientific calculator I bought in the 80's cost me over a 100 bucks it lasted till 2016,I replaced with a new one made in China from WalMart for 20 bucks.
I buy American when I can find it but some things are not made here any longer one thing I don't buy are tools from Harbor Freight lol that is new junk store that sells junk with a warranty and they do honor the warranty,they replace a grinder for me about every 2 weeks
But Clifford,
You use your tools more than most commercial shops. Folks are also always borrowing yours.
Most of us use them rarely.
I too try to buy quality tools. I do, though, buy a lot of stuff from HF. I may only need it once. I don't loan tools. I may allow someone to use one at my shop. I get some of them broke even then. Especially Craftsmen ratchets. Now they've sold out to someone else and they ain't what they used to be!
You could borrow anything I have or could steal except Frankie.
HF is wonderful! For those DIY mechanics who might use a special tool once every couple years, you can't beat HF. I have so many tools that I would not have been able to afford or justify for one off jobs. Any tool I use regularly I buy quality brands.
Quote from: windtrader on September 28, 2017, 12:02:02 PM
HF is wonderful! For those DIY mechanics who might use a special tool once every couple years, you can't beat HF. I have so many tools that I would not have been able to afford or justify for one off jobs. Any tool I use regularly I buy quality brands.
No problem with Harbor Freight here.
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The HF grinders have weak motors & don't keep the keep the rpms up. Slower speed of abrasive wheel/ disc means faster wear.
I paid over $100 for a dewalt grinder & it is amazing how much longer a disc will last on it vs a HF grinder.
TYou'll get zero disagreement to the inferiority of most HF tools. From my vantage point, like many others, the cost of the cheapie tool is equivalent to renting once. As long it gets the job done then you're ahead.
Specific to grinders. I' more than happy with the cheapie HF grinder. It does a great job cutiing metal and grinding metal faster than any way I had before. I have no remorse if it packs up tomorrow. I'll decide if that tool is useful enough to get a quality model or just buy another cheapie HF.
I can pay 5 bucks for a 4" cutting wheel American made at my local welding supply and it will outlast a 10 pack of the Harbor Freight junk same thing with my 14 inch cut off saw.FWIW Tractor Supply sells better Chinese made stuff.
After 4 attempts 1 per year with the H/F self darkening welding hoods I broke down and paid the bucks for a good Jackson digital hood I should have done it to start with and would have saved a few bucks in the long run
I use a hf darkening welding helmet and hf angle grinder. Zero issues though I did have to switch out the brushes on the grinder after a year of heavy use. I'd buy another.
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Quote from: CrabbyMilton on September 26, 2017, 03:03:13 PM
I liked your comment about the cylinder deactivation. I never drove one but I rode in a RAM 1500 that had it. If you listen carefully, you can hear it change from a V8 to a V4.
Still smooth though.
I have a 2005 Jeep GC that has the 6.5 Hemi with cylinder deactivation and a five speed automatic .18 mph highway 11.5 else where .
never skimp on a hood.
i prefer Huntsman, Jackson is good too.
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 29, 2017, 10:48:14 AM
never skimp on a hood.
i prefer Huntsman, Jackson is good too.
Hf is good enough. I had a wallyworld hood but it was so dark I couldn't see what I was doing.
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I'm a very fair skinned Scandinavian--corn silk hair as a kid and watery blue eyes. I burn up like a chicken in a bar-b-q. The hf auto darkening helmet works OK for me IF I keep it set at full block and blink my eyes as I start an arc. I weld only inside so use a bright LED flashlight to sight in for my welds. Jack