Guys, I'm having the trip from hell...please someone with knowledge send me your cell number so we can talk. Yesterday we began heading out of Gettysburg and all three of us fell ill from some very potent stomach flu. We are coming out of both ends to say it straight. Last night I began vomiting while driving through D.C. And Heather had to take over in emergency. She's a little ahead of me on this and feeling a tiny tiny bit better. We determined to make it off the side of the road to the flying J here RUTHER GLEN VIRGINIA. We made it, planned on fueling dumping tanks, filling fresh tank and staying here for a couple of days until we recover. I've already had to cancel my contract to sing in Orlando this weekend. Just now I pulled up to the RV fuel islands and accidentally put in 76 gallons of gas into my half full diesel tank for the bus. 150 gallon tank means I'm half and half. Local shop wants $2000 for pump out refill....please someone help me with a better solution.. if I had room in the tank I'd add straight motor oil to lubricate the gas but my tank is full to the top. Please help. I can hardly stand I'm so sick....
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Scott sorry to hear this!
Maybe "Frank" aka Ken Franklin might know somebody close to assist you much more reasonable!
He is about an hour North of you near Alexandria.
Wish I were closer I'd help fer sure, but I'm in St. Louis.
;D BK ;D
Correction "Frank" aka "Slowrider" is in Wood Bridge still about an hour from you.
But he might have resources as he's been established in th at area for a long time!
;D BK ;D
Maybe you could find a person with the 110 gal fuel tank in a pickup to unload the fuel you can buy a 12 volt at Tractor Supply for 20 bucks that will pump petroleum products, wish I was closer to help you.2000 bucks sounds steep to pump the fuel out and refill it,I almost did that one time when the station had 2 green nozzles 1 for ethanol and the other for diesel on the same pump
good luck
If I was at home I'd call my local fuel oil delivery guy and he would come and pump out the tank for me, probably charge me around $200. So my thought is call a few home heating fuel oil delivery companies. Your illness sounds like a norovirus, or other virus, sudden onset, usually lasts about 24 hours, but they are long long hours. I've had it. Very contagious.
Brian
No one is coming through. Fuel oil places truck stops, environmental disposal place. A couple said they'd do it for $2000. Not gonna happen. I just blew $200 in fuel so I just bought a pump and tank at tractor supply and gonna do it myself even though I really do feel like I'm dying sheesh.
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Scott, Really sorry to hear what's going on. I can only offer best of luck getting well and on the road again. Seems like you already have the fuel removal sorted out.
Did you get going, Scott? I only now saw your post. I have several friends about 2 hours a way from you. None of them are involved with anything that might help you, but it would not hurt to ask.
I feel sick at my stomach thinking about what is happening even without a virus.
Davy
If you are willing to try the oil addition, buy a couple of 5 gallon fuel cans and pump/drain the diesel/gas into them.
I once did the same thing in my old Courier 96 with 4-71. I added a couple of gallons of Howe's diesel treatment and drove it. Never hurt it. The following winter when I rebuilt it (for other reasons), I could not see any signs of damage.
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two or three 5 gallon diesel cans and a garden hose for siphon. Add your oil and head down the road.
I had the same thoughts. Buy some fuel cans and siphon or pump it out yourself if you can. That price is crazy. The "used" fuel should run fine in a lawn mower. Wish I was closer.
I did the same thing a couple of years ago with a diesel van. Filled it with gas and got about 4 miles down the road before it stalled completely. Had Good Sams flat bed it back to my place and my neighbor pumped it into a used 55 gallon drum we had and I disposed of it over time.
How much oil would you add to 76 gals of gasoline to use in diesel engine ? I am thinking a lot.IMO I think he did the right thing
wow what a nightmare. Either the flu but sure sounds like food poisoning to me. On top of putting gas in the tank....dam.
My version of hell
Around here, most diesel fuel pumps have green covers on the nozzle, and black for gasoline. Except BP... They have green for gasoline and black for diesel. Most truck stops are all black. Go figure. Maybe you could get away with oil or lube in that fuel and burn it. I wouldn't take the chance on your coach engine. I'd have done it in my Old diesel though years ago.
Hi guys, so we are back on the road and my wife is feeling good enough to drive today and tomorrow. I absolutely cannot I'm toast. Today I bought a 65 gallon poly tank from tractor supply and a 12 volt fuel transfer pump. I then stuck the pickup for the transfer pump into the very top surface of the fuel in the tank just suctioning the top layer and slowly dropping down until I had removed a full 70 gallons of almost pure gas. It was fuming and clearly just gas. Then I put in a big container of power service diesel treatment/pump lube and also dumped in a gallon of 40 wt oil. Then I put in no less than 84 gallons of fresh diesel into the tank and I've been driving so far with zero issues. I am completely wiped and have to visit the restroom to vomit or the other end every 20 minutes or so. Somehow I mustered the energy to get this taken care of. Hope none of you ever have this happen to you. Just plain sucks.
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That is quite an adventure.
Congratulations! You have some handy new tools and you're not out $2000. You can probably use the gas, half a tank at a time, in the toad.
But Diesel engines run quite well off gasoline. I don't see the problem. In fact the Diesel engine can take just about any liquid fuel. I know a guy in Europe that runs his Diesel transit off corn oil.
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Go ahead. Let us know how it works out for you.
Any dumb @$# that would run a 17 to 18 to 1 diesel engine on gasoline would deserve the explosion that would result.>>>Dan
Quote from: Utahclaimjumper on September 20, 2017, 03:11:54 PMAny dumb @$# that would run a 17 to 18 to 1 diesel engine on gasoline would deserve the explosion that would result.>>>Dan
Kinda like anybody who would run gasoline through his diesel pressure pump and injectors would deserve the damage that he'd get. (Mostly. Some diesels have pump/distributor systems that are lubed by engine oil -- anybody know about the DD 2-stroke? Is is lubed and cooled by the fuel?)
DDs use a common displacement gear pump that is lubed by the fuel ( not the high pressure pumps that todays diesels use,)>>>D ( Scott did the correct thing under the circumstances)
I'm glad you made it out of that mess and will feel better soon.
Gasoline in a diesel engine isn't a good idea. I remember one time a stupid lady was putting gasoline in a diesel FORD SUPERDUTY pickup. I was going to say something but I figured if one is that stupid...
The way that engine sounded when she pulled in it probably wasn't the first time.
Quote from: Utahclaimjumper on September 20, 2017, 03:24:23 PMDDs use a common displacement gear pump that is lubed by the fuel ( not the high pressure pumps that todays diesels use,)>>>D ( Scott did the correct thing under the circumstances)
That's what I thought. Thanks.
LOL that wasn't the $20.00 pump I was talking about,you have to love Tractor Supply good job Scott
Bonus points should be awarded for your resourcefulness. Glad that you got it worked out and that you're on the road. Hope you have a full and quick recovery.
Richard
Quote from: Utahclaimjumper on September 20, 2017, 03:11:54 PM
Any dumb @$# that would run a 17 to 18 to 1 diesel engine on gasoline would deserve the explosion that would result.>>>Dan
You mean like this guy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL9-i9tcESU
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Thanks so much guys. I always panic first and I'm so ill I can't think straight hence putting gas in my bus. Heather is starting to feel better and she was ahead of me on this illness by about 12 hours so I'm crossing my fingers....
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And yeah cliff, I wasn't about to dink around with a pump that would take years to transfer the fuel, this pump was ready for the job. Total about $480 to save $187 worth of fuel and $2000 worth of pump out fees feels pretty good to me. I'll probably sell the tank once I empty it into my toad and generators. I'll prob keep the transfer pump. It's real nice
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Quote from: Zephod on September 20, 2017, 03:58:33 PM
You mean like this guy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL9-i9tcESU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL9-i9tcESU)
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Having had a 3206 Cat diesel in a F8000 Ford truck fueled wrong (gas) in one of my field trucks years ago and the gas was a killer. New motor was the result. One piston collapsed and scored all the other cylinders. This Wanker on the you tube is full of crap. He talks funny also. ;D
Glad to hear you're feeling better and your fueling issues are resolved.
Zephod:
You remind me of many I know- a contrarian and always trying to do things on the cheap and by patching this and that together.
Petrol as a fuel in itself in terms of compression ignition can burn ok but there's still a question mark over the exhaust temps when using an alternate fuel, and ideally the injectors and piston design need to be designed for it, however the fuel system itself is the unknown. A common rail system which uses diesel as a lubricant will be toast even with a small level of petrol dilution. Petrol is a solvent. Even a pump-line-nozzle system will be toast.
The DD fuel system is very low pressure, and very durable and more tolerant to abuse- but how much dilution can it tolerate? 10%? 40%?
What damage will be done in the longer term? I don't know and wouldn't want to test it. I would feel much more comfortable running multigrade in a 2 stroke Detroit than this.
Holy cow Scott what a adventure, Hope you get feeling better soon, I know that flying J very well, we stop and fuel up there on our trips south, it's mostly the cheapest place for fuel but also the busiest that they built a 2nd one on the other side of the exit. You did the wright thing by pumping the gas out, to much money involved with these engines. Good luck Jason
So she's been running perfect all day no problems at all. Just shut It down to add more diesel and now she won't start!!??
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Quote from: Scott & Heather on September 20, 2017, 05:52:37 PM
So she's been running perfect all day no problems at all. Just shut It down to add more diesel and now she won't start!!??
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Dang Scott, when it rains it pours. Heck I don't even shut my gas rigs down when I fill. Hope you get it running.
I'm in North Carolina between Benson and Dunn. Anyone nearby here with a DDEC II code reader?
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Praying for ya man, hang tough! Sick, the bus issue AND cancelling dates, thats a bad run right there!
Might check the fuses in the battery compartment area.
With this page link a careful jump the terminals for the dash light blink code "count".
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&channel=iphone_bm&ei=NSfDWd2oCqaD0wLx-7LoAQ&q=ddec+2+ecm+terminal+jumper+for+blink+codes&oq=ddec+2+ecm+terminal+jumper+for+blink+codes&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3...5431.21777.0.22751.32.32.0.0.0.0.392.6288.0j24j6j2.32.0....0...1.1.64.mobile-gws-serp..0.29.5772...0j0i22i30k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i21k1j33i160k1.0.j5Jk6OPyJ0M#imgrc=qRgAwukFVTUU6M: (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&channel=iphone_bm&ei=NSfDWd2oCqaD0wLx-7LoAQ&q=ddec+2+ecm+terminal+jumper+for+blink+codes&oq=ddec+2+ecm+terminal+jumper+for+blink+codes&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3...5431.21777.0.22751.32.32.0.0.0.0.392.6288.0j24j6j2.32.0....0...1.1.64.mobile-gws-serp..0.29.5772...0j0i22i30k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i21k1j33i160k1.0.j5Jk6OPyJ0M#imgrc=qRgAwukFVTUU6M:)
Floyd
If it is a Norovirus, there is no treatment other than time and keeping hydrated. Clean and disinfect all surfaces you have touched or had body fluids in contact with by using a mixture of detergent and chlorine bleach. The percentage of Clorox to use will be indicated on the label. You can still pass this misery on to others who enter your coach, or touch things you did. I hope you have Coach Net or some other emergency service to help you out should the tips you have already gotten not work. This is very much like the sudden epidemics of Norovirus that occur on cruise ships, and other tight quarters. You probably got it from contaminated food or unwashed fruit, or contact with another person that had it, but did not know it.
Quote from: Dreadnought on September 20, 2017, 05:41:39 PM
Petrol as a fuel in itself in terms of compression ignition can burn ok but there's still a question mark over the exhaust temps when using an alternate fuel, and ideally the injectors and piston design need to be designed for it, however the fuel system itself is the unknown. A common rail system which uses diesel as a lubricant will be toast even with a small level of petrol dilution. Petrol is a solvent. Even a pump-line-nozzle system will be toast.
The DD fuel system is very low pressure, and very durable and more tolerant to abuse- but how much dilution can it tolerate? 10%? 40%?
What damage will be done in the longer term? I don't know and wouldn't want to test it. I would feel much more comfortable running multigrade in a 2 stroke Detroit than this.
How do multi-fuel engines work? Do they have to be adjusted to whatever fuel is chosen to work properly, or do they work so-so on anything without adjustment? Also, can one use other diesel-like fuels in a diesel engine, such as JET-A1 or kerosene or heating oil, or do they have a similar lack of lubrication as gasoline? Just wondering. And no, I don't plan on putting anything except diesel in my bus!
John
Some diesel engines will work fine off of alternate fuels. I have an Arctic Cat diesel 4-wheeler that is army spec with a Lombardini diesel and it is rated to run off of anything from diesel to straight kerosene to jet A or jet B. I think it lists 7 different fuels i can use. The only downside it mentions is reduced power and increased consumption if not using regular diesel. But even this one clearly states, and I quote" Gasoline or gasoline based fuels must not be used, or sever engine damage WILL occur".
Ryan.
Quote from: Iceni John on September 20, 2017, 09:09:34 PMHow do multi-fuel engines work? Do they have to be adjusted to whatever fuel is chosen to work properly, or do they work so-so on anything without adjustment? Also, can one use other diesel-like fuels in a diesel engine, such as JET-A1 or kerosene or heating oil, or do they have a similar lack of lubrication as gasoline? Just wondering. And no, I don't plan on putting anything except diesel in my bus!
John
I was involved in a military vehicle project once (OK, 40 years ago and things have probably changed) -- it was a two-stroke motorcycle and that probably made a difference -- but the deal for multi-fuel on that engine was to incorporate a super-hot electronic ignition system timed pretty late, a high-for-gas-engine but low-for-diesel-engine compression ratio, and smoothed out squish area in the combustion chamber. What we got was an engine that ran pretty badly on gasoline and JET-A and even worse on diesel but it was multi-fuel and it would meet its performance requirements with it's tepid output. Basically, the engine wasn't optimized to run well on any particular fuel, but it would run "well enough" on the range of military fuels.
To answer your question, John, about fuel types. Most JET fuels are basically kerosene/parrafine-type petroleum products (we won't get into the SR-71 gel fuels etc., but almost all the common ones). Particularly JET-A is almost entirely kerosene -- kerosene and products in the same petroleum cracking genre are "spirits" to use the old descriptive term. They act more like gasoline -- almost no lubricating qualities and a tendency to evaporate; diesel fuels and home heating oils are "oils" -- they don't evaporate much and they have basic lubricating qualities.
In the VW TDI world (at least up through the VE/"distributed injection"* engines of about 10 years ago), they'd run like a champ forever on home-heating oil because that product was almost identical to diesel #2 fuel. The small differences were almost entirely that road fuels were restricted in sulfur content but for the car engines of that time, the difference in actual use was insignificant. In about 2006, Ultra low sulfur fuel came in and the two products diverged even more but until the highly regulated, high pressure common rail, DEF-type engines came in, there still wasn't much difference.
JET-A and kerosene would "run" just fine in those engines, about all you'd see was a slight loss in MPG numbers, because -- although kerosene products are across the spirit/oil divide in refining terms -- kerosene is as close to the oils as you can get. The issue was "run just fine" but because of the lack of lubricating qualities, the medium-pressure diesel pumps of the day, the "distributing" mechanisms, and the injectors would suffer extreme wear and fail. In truth, petroleum product production isn't very precise and any "kerosene" you buy is going to have some "oil" molecules in it (JET-A actually specifies a small amount of oil to lubricate pumps and similar components) so on-the-road, the pre-highly-emissions-controlled VW's would typically go further on kerosene-type fuels than you'd otherwise expect but the end result of worn-out fuel components would still be where you'd end up.
Some diesel engines (I think but not sure) like some medium pickup diesels, had fuel pumps that were supplied lubrication for the engine oil pump system and they were practically tolerant of low-lubricity fuels. But that's kind of beside the point.
Unless there's some special design feature put in for some purpose, diesel engines were designed to run on diesel fuel and that's what we should be running in them. Yes, there are some grey areas -- some "yah kin git uhway widd it" room - but basically diesel engines should be run on diesel fuels.
(* Those VW "distributed" systems -- described as "VE" systems by Bosch -- were called that because the pressurized and metered fuel was separated and distributed from the engine-driven fuel pump through individual high-pressure pipes to individual injector nozzles in each cylinder. Other manufacturers used slightly different mechanisms before high-technology changed everything, but the basic results stands.)
Wow, thanks Bruce, that's much more answer than I was thinking I'd get! That really helps me. I didn't realize that kerosene is more "spirit" than "oil"; old British diesels were often called "oil engines".
Thanks, John
#1 fuel or kerosene was the primary fuel for the older 2 stroke engine for years till the refiners wanted just the 1 type diesel fuel to refine.FWIW the old IH diesel engines had 2 systems you started on gasoline then switched over to diesel once the engine was warm what a nightmare they were
Quote from: Iceni John on September 20, 2017, 09:09:34 PM
How do multi-fuel engines work? Do they have to be adjusted to whatever fuel is chosen to work properly, or do they work so-so on anything without adjustment? Also, can one use other diesel-like fuels in a diesel engine, such as JET-A1 or kerosene or heating oil, or do they have a similar lack of lubrication as gasoline? Just wondering. And no, I don't plan on putting anything except diesel in my bus!
John
I was once involved in a military project that stipulated using JP8 as a fuel. If I were tasked to engineer a HD diesel engine to run on iso-octane , gasoline/petrol, I would make sure the common rail fuel system lubrication was done using the engine oil rather than diesel itself.
I would then optimize the fuel injection system, that's the number of holes in the nozzle the, sac volume, and spray angle for the new fuel, and then design a piston bowl ,compressionrati o, to suit. I would pay special attension to the liquid length of penetration, and how it mixes. The work may also involve looking at the port design and the amount of imparted swirl. I would use in cylinder CFD in league with single cylinder test work to correlate and ground the smulation
There would be extensive testing ,looking at emissions, power and torque level, and then looking at exhaust temps over the required duty cycle to make sure everything was durable. That would be most of the work.
We had an old dozer that ran on diesel but started on gas. It was the neatest sounding engine when switching from gas to diesel. We would run it on gas for a few minutes to warm it up, then pull the fuel shutoff handle and increase the diesel valve handle and it would run on gas, then gas/diesel then diesel. Wish I had a video of it, as it was so kewl to see and watch as it blew smoke rings into the air.
Quote from: MB LeMirage on September 21, 2017, 05:28:12 AM
Some diesel engines will work fine off of alternate fuels. I have an Arctic Cat diesel 4-wheeler that is army spec with a Lombardini diesel and it is rated to run off of anything from diesel to straight kerosene to jet A or jet B. I think it lists 7 different fuels i can use. The only downside it mentions is reduced power and increased consumption if not using regular diesel. But even this one clearly states, and I quote" Gasoline or gasoline based fuels must not be used, or sever engine damage WILL occur".
Ryan.
none of those are gasoline....
Coach has been running like a champ for a day and a half now. We keep stopping and filling with diesel to keep any gas remnants to a really low concentration. No hard done. Almost to Orlando
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The military used the Continental engine that used any type fuel it was called the "hypercycle" engine it used a fuel density compensator. I have one in a military generator and a 6x6 truck
Quote from: Iceni John on September 21, 2017, 09:45:05 AM... old British diesels were often called "oil engines".
Thanks, John ...
Like the Leyland O-600/O-680 series??? Yeah, like that, like the one I have in my garage!
Quote from: luvrbus on September 21, 2017, 09:56:25 AM
#1 fuel or kerosene was the primary fuel for the older 2 stroke engine for years till the refiners wanted just the 1 type diesel fuel to refine.FWIW the old IH diesel engines had 2 systems you started on gasoline then switched over to diesel once the engine was warm what a nightmare they were
Cliff & Gary, I had one of those International engines in a twenty-ton bulldozer (TD18A). It was a nightmare in that it had many parts, but it was super cool when you switched from gas to diesel. I've never experienced anything like it since. In the case of this Scott dilemma, (how do we count them all ::)), it does not apply because there were two fuel tanks, and they did not mix. On one side of the engine you had an intake manifold with a carburetor and a touchy magneto firing six spark plugs which fired in a small pre-chamber that sent it's expanding gases into the main chamber to turn the engine over. That would warm the engine up, and it had just enough power to actual move the bulldozer, but not push anything. After a few minutes of warmup, you pulled the diesel fuel valve open a little until you see smoke coming out of the twin stacks, then you pull the compression release lever suddenly to close off the pre-chamber, and then, fa-fa-boom, the diesel fuel fires under compression, and the whole machine shakes and comes to life. I always thought it would be a great training aide for beginning mechanics because it had all of the components of a gas and diesel engine in one block, with two heads.
LOL I spent many days working on TD-6's up through TD-18's IH's that is all dad would buy for years and still have nightmares even thinking about one.The lever tripped baffles like in a carburetor in the intake manifold so the engine would make vacuum to pull the gas up from the down draft carburetor those were always hanging and not tripping on the TD-9's
Quote from: luvrbus on September 21, 2017, 05:55:48 PM
LOL I spent many days working on TD-6's up through TD-18's IH's and still have nightmares even thinking about one
I did not have too much trouble with the engine or controls, the magneto was very touchy about delivering a good spark though. I do remember that finding replacement pre-cups was difficult. The main problem I had when working in rocky soil was the track chain cracking and busting, over and over. Getting the tracks back on was misery on rough ground. When it worked well, it would start in sub-zero temperatures and do a lot of hard pushing. It was a great exercise machine, both legs and both arms had to work the clutches and brakes.
The TD-18's sure sound good under a load with the dual mufflers though,those were only 75 draw bar hp
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on September 21, 2017, 11:27:11 AM
Like the Leyland O-600/O-680 series??? Yeah, like that, like the one I have in my garage!
I love the sound of an O-680 pulling hard in a Leyland Leopard with the Pneumocyclic transmission - I rode many a mile in them between London and Norfolk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKKKgjzKcsw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKKKgjzKcsw) Great buses. (Almost as good as a Bristol RE.)
John
Quote from: Iceni John on September 21, 2017, 09:01:58 PMI love the sound of an O-680 pulling hard ...
I have to say that I loved the sound of mine but after losing the Daimler transmission twice after 500 miles and having no rebuild service except in Britain (and parts becoming scarce and expensive), I felt I had to go to a N. American powertrain. There were a couple of British buses in Charlotte NC in the '00s with Gardner engines ... just not the same.