I guess that it was inevitable, but today I had my first case of damage by user error. Drove a while with the hand brake engaged. It happened because I had to stop halfway down my driveway when a door swung open and I stopped to fasten it down. Guess the interruption to my normal routine was enough for me to skip a step. When I finally noticed the brake was on I stopped to check things over. I realized that the hand brake would not hold the bus anymore. Ah oh! That can't be good...
Long story short, when I got home I blocked the bus and found the hand brake adjusting point. A few turns on this and everything seems to be good again. The hand brake engages after only a few clicks on the ratchet, and once engaged seems to hold the bus still just fine.
I had thought that the thing wasn't fully adjusted before this happened since it took quite a few clicks on the ratchet before engaging, and I'm guessing that if the bus rolled along so nicely it couldn't have been set too firmly prior to my error.
Question?? Is there supposed to be a tell tale light that indicates when the hand brake is set? Seems like that would be a good idea for the next time I forget to look left...
For safety's sake, I did make an appointment next week to have the bus put on the lift at the shop so that they can fully inspect to be sure that I haven't caused damage to the hand brake or worn it to the point it needs new shoes. They'll also confirm that everything is adjusted properly.
I feel stupid for having done this, but at least it's something that should be recoverable.
Richard
My concern would be about overheating the brake and possibly causing a fire. It probably wouldn't be difficult to put a microswitch on either the brake lever (it is a mechanical brake, yes?) or brake itself, and a bright red light on the dash somewhere, maybe a flashing light or with a buzzer as well.
John
John - Apparently the brake must not have been adjusted too well to begin with, as there wasn't even the usual smell that comes from overheated brakes.
I also thought of doing some type of light, but right now I'm thinking of something more along the lines of what is done with aircraft. A bright red strip of fabric which is connected on one end to the brake lever/handle with a clip on the other end. I can just loop it through the steering wheel and clip it back to itself when I set the brake. Maybe this will force me to get into the habit of checking the brake. before going anywhere.
Richard
Your bus should NOT move with the parking brake applied - no matter how hard you press the accelerator. This is a standard test with all school busses. If you can move it with the parking break applied you shut it off, call a mechanic and take a spare bus.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
My first motor home was a 75 Winnebago Brave .It had the adjustment knob on the end of the lever and also had a light .I can't list the times I for got to release the parking brake on that thing.(and that was back when I could actually remember things )LOL
This is one good argument for switching to Maxi-brakes. My bus will not move until parking brake is released. And-it will just about put you through the windshield if applied while moving (as a test). Good Luck, TomC
Richard -
On the 4106 I owned, the fast idle wouldn't engage unless the handbrake was on.
Find that circuit and tap into it for your light.
Simple!
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Gone are the good-ole-days when I used to drive Mack trucks that allowed you to adjust the spring tension on the cable directly on the handle as bigred alluded to. Guess that required you to have some common sense when using the parking break. ;D
Quote from: Zephod on August 31, 2017, 04:13:56 PM
Your bus should NOT move with the parking brake applied - no matter how hard you press the accelerator. This is a standard test with all school busses. If you can move it with the parking break applied you shut it off, call a mechanic and take a spare bus.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
IF you cannot adjust your own clutch and brakes..u have no business sitting in the seat.
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 01, 2017, 05:47:27 PM
IF you cannot adjust your own clutch and brakes..u have no business sitting in the seat.
Don't know if I totally agree with you on this, but generally speaking I think I get your message. I feel pretty confident in doing repairs like this, and I was able to adjust the hand brake to get it to hold rock solid. However, since I don't have a pit or other good way to do a thorough examination to see how much of the brake shoe is left I thought it best to have the shop lift it and take a look.
Of course, just because I can do repairs doesn't always mean that I have the time or desire to do them myself. I also factor in the aggravation and frustration level, and since owning the bus is supposed to be fun there are just some days I'd rather have someone else take care of things.
Richard
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 01, 2017, 05:47:27 PM
IF you cannot adjust your own clutch and brakes..u have no business sitting in the seat.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should . . . .
Just because you should, doesn't mean you can . . . .
;D :o ::) ;D
Quote from: kyle4501 on September 01, 2017, 08:27:01 PM
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should . . . .
Just because you should, doesn't mean you can . . . .
;D :o ::) ;D
Exactly. I'm paid to drive, not fix schoolbusses. In fact we are told not to attempt roadside fixes.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
In commercial driving in the US and Canada, you have to demonstrate to a DOT officer that you can adjust air brakes. That is also one the prerequisites for getting a CDL. The responsibility falls directly on the driver for out of adjustment brakes. In Canada, you need an air brakes endorsement to operate a vehicle with air brakes, which includes a motor home with air brakes. So the same applies. I know that private motor-homes in the US can be driven without any knowledge of how the air brakes work, but I have to agree that if you cannot adjust your own brakes, you shouldn't be in the driver's seat.
JC
Quote from: lostagain on September 02, 2017, 06:33:09 AMIn commercial driving in the US and Canada, you have to demonstrate to a DOT officer that you can adjust air brakes. That is also one the prerequisites for getting a CDL. The responsibility falls directly on the driver for out of adjustment brakes. In Canada, you need an air brakes endorsement to operate a vehicle with air brakes, which includes a motor home with air brakes. So the same applies. I know that private motor-homes in the US can be driven without any knowledge of how the air brakes work, but I have to agree that if you cannot adjust your own brakes, you shouldn't be in the driver's seat.
JC
Yup. I remember my CDL test, rolling under the work bus, identifying all the parts and talking my way through checking and adjusting them.
I'm not allowed to maintain my work bus.
My work bus has pita brakes. They're either on hard or having no effect. Then there's the air leak because of a faulty valve that means I have to stomp the footbrake a few times after releasing the parking brake. And the blasted interlock that comes on randomly even though I release the parking brake with the footbrake applied. Maintainence won't do a thing to it saying everything is within parameters yet other busses have way better brakes.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: Zephod on September 02, 2017, 07:05:49 AM
Yup. I remember my CDL test, rolling under the work bus, identifying all the parts and talking my way through checking and adjusting them.
I'm not allowed to maintain my work bus.
My work bus has pita brakes. They're either on hard or having no effect. Then there's the air leak because of a faulty valve that means I have to stomp the footbrake a few times after releasing the parking brake. And the blasted interlock that comes on randomly even though I release the parking brake with the footbrake applied. Maintainence won't do a thing to it saying everything is within parameters yet other busses have way better brakes.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I hope you ain't driving kids around with that problem. I for one wouldn't drive something that has trouble stopping and all I use to drive around were cattle.
I "grandfathered" on my CDL way back in 1988 or 1989 before they even became MANDATORY by law but the lady that owned the towing service I worked for wanted ALL her drivers to be CDL compliant well in advance of the requirement.
So I never had to take the skills test only the written tests which I passed ALL off and got ALL endorsements on my class A CDL.
But I do know that once during an inspection at the Truckee, CA scale house the only thing they found wrong was a trailer brake slightly out of adjustment and told me I'd have to call a service truck out to adjust it.
But while the officer was off doing his paperwork I crawled under the truck and adjusted it myself.
When I told him it was fixed he got angry and asked for my air brake adjustment certification card. I told him I didn't have one and had never even heard of one.
He told me that without it my adjustment was not only invalid but also illegal!
he then wrote me another ticket for unauthorized tampering with a commercial vehicle brake system.
I blew a gasket and came very close to going to jail before the superior officer overheard the commotion and came to see what was going on. After a brief period of me arguing with both officers, the superior officer asked me how I knew what I did to the brakes was correct and safe?!?!?
I told him "I had grown up working on vehicles, had been a class 8 wrecker driver and had worked on hundreds of trucks over my working career."
He agreed to check my work, and after doing so told the other officer to tear up the tickets and let me go.
After that the next time I heard of it was years later when our bus company was getting a safety audit by the TN Highway Patrol DOT Division. When the officer asked dad who did our brake inspections. Dad told him I did. The officer then asked for my "certification card" and I didn't have one. To which he asked how we knew that I was qualified to do so. Again I told him " I had grown up working on vehicles, had been a class 8 wrecker driver and had worked on hundreds of trucks and buses over my working career."
To our surprise to that he responded "Well let's get you a certification card then." And he started working on his laptop computer and asked several questions while typing answers. After a few minutes he excused himself for a minute and went out to the trunk of his car. When he returned he put a piece of "card stock" in his portable printer and printed off a copy of a "card" for me along with the supporting documentation for us to keep in the companies files.
He suggested I "cut" the card off the page and laminate it to carry in my wallet, but admitted he knew a lot of people just left it intact and in the company files. (which is what I did, and I have never been asked for it since!)
;D BK ;D
Quote from: muldoonman on September 02, 2017, 04:21:42 PM
I hope you ain't driving kids around with that problem. I for one wouldn't drive something that has trouble stopping and all I use to drive around were cattle.
I do. It stops well enough just not gently enough for my liking.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Its an advantage to be able to adjust the brakes, and or slack adjusters.
Here in the USA a CDL walk around inspection doesnt require one to describe how to do the adjustment on brakes.
You do however have to point to or touch the particular parts your inspecting and describe what they are and what your tested on in the written parts of the exam.
I.E. point to slack adjuster and describe what it is and how you may test the slack and the distance it can have. In this inspection some rods may have the colored plastic washers for this specfic, also to helps protect the chamber from debris. Getting on with it describing to pry by hand or in a safe way using a pry bar useful for the task, and taking the measure. Making sure to describe it is secure both structural and in its standard fasteners mounting.
Not required here but having aspectsof this in the great north one may have to perform securely a standard brake application with pressure, this starts to with chocking wheel. Then by using particular block they may have made or such equipment for holding pedal down.
In any event aplying treadle pressure to above 90psi and placing block or a secure method to keep the pressure. Getting out and to a particular test wheel and checking distance of slack, from a discussed place of measure. Hope this can help some, I would say as i have before the freinds up in the great north, Canada have been instrumental in their testing in more than just CDL type, In an engineering and mechanical way. Many of these particulars have been known here in the US but with their implementation they have since or in following made law here.
With that thanks
Floyd
Lots of interesting information about air brakes in this thread, but I wanted to remind people who may not know that the hand brake in a 4106 is a mechanical drum brake mounted on the driveline and not part of the air brake system. The adjustment consists of turning a nut to bring the shoes within a specified distance from the drum. Pretty simple stuff. Problem is getting to it close enough to do a thorough inspection when I don't have a safe method of lifting the bus yet.
Richard
1964 PD4106-2412
Quote from: richard5933 on September 02, 2017, 07:46:51 PM
Lots of interesting information about air brakes in this thread, but I wanted to remind people who may not know that the hand brake in a 4106 is a mechanical drum brake mounted on the driveline and not part of the air brake system. The adjustment consists of turning a nut to bring the shoes within a specified distance from the drum. Pretty simple stuff. Problem is getting to it close enough to do a thorough inspection when I don't have a safe method of lifting the bus yet.
Richard
1964 PD4106-2412
Lifting it? You can't just roll underneath?
With my school bus I can sit upright once I'm under the skirt.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
My first case of "user error" I titled "My Shortest Most Expensive Trip Ever!"
I left my 50 AMP cord plugged into the garage, and... ripped the cord, and bent a baggage bay door beyond repair, and only went 15 ft! If I hadn't backed onto the cord with the front wheel, all I might have needed was a new plug.
Luke had a good laugh when I bought the door from him a few years ago.
Steve
Quote from: pabusnut on September 02, 2017, 10:21:34 PMMy first case of "user error" I titled "My Shortest Most Expensive Trip Ever!"
I left my 50 AMP cord plugged into the garage, and... ripped the cord, and bent a baggage bay door beyond repair, and only went 15 ft! If I hadn't backed onto the cord with the front wheel, all I might have needed was a new plug.
Luke had a good laugh when I bought the door from him a few years ago.
Steve
That's the only thing I don't like about the Hubble locking plugs that I've used.
A TT30 inlet can't be found under $80 and I'm not prepared to pay $75 over the odds just to line some $41ts pocket. Thus I have Hubble NEMA 6-30 inlet. Oddly, a TT30 connector is dirt cheap. Thus I have a short lead from my 6-30 that ends in a TT30 connector though what I use most of the time is a 6-30 to 5-20 adaptor and an ordinary extension lead.
I'm hoping that if I ever just forget that the plug and connector will just separate. Those 6-30s are hard to find!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: Zephod on September 02, 2017, 10:11:16 PM
Lifting it? You can't just roll underneath?
With my school bus I can sit upright once I'm under the skirt.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Sounds like you've got a lot more clearance than I have. Even if I block the suspension to make it safe to get under, there is not enough room for me to see into the brake drum from the inspection end.
Now twenty years ago when I was younger and not moving like molasses on a winter morning, things would possibly have been different.
Richard
1964 PD4106-2412
The only places I can't sit upright.... under the engine, the differential, the battery compartment, the fuel tank and the two grey tanks I installed. I can still roll underneath it all to work on it though.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: Zephod on September 03, 2017, 06:33:40 AM
The only places I can't sit upright.... under the engine, the differential, the battery compartment, the fuel tank and the two grey tanks I installed. I can still roll underneath it all to work on it though.
Zephod you tend to forget that most of the other buses on this forum are OTR coaches with low ground clearance, large luggage bays and air suspensions.
Whole different animals than your skoolie.
But the fact remains we're all busnuts regardless of the bus we're nuts over!
;D BK ;D
Quote from: B_K on September 03, 2017, 12:49:50 PM
Zephod you tend to forget that most of the other buses on this forum are OTR coaches with low ground clearance, large luggage bays and air suspensions.
Whole different animals than your skoolie.
But the fact remains we're all busnuts regardless of the bus we're nuts over!
;D BK ;D
Yes lol. I think I can get my schoolbus over rougher terrain than most coaches. In fact I drive over one rail crossing in my work bus that has me wondering what kind of drugs the people that made it are on!
Try to get street view of this rail crossing!
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9770699,-81.1012986,20z/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en-US
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: Zephod on September 02, 2017, 02:15:59 AM
Exactly. I'm paid to drive, not fix schoolbusses. In fact we are told not to attempt roadside fixes.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
i can assure you...in a liability situ...the mechanic will say he did and the lawyer will say you should have.
there's a big difference between operator maintenance and repairs.
that said 99% of the people here aren't in and out of a shop every day...brakes can need adjusted (clutches too) 300 miles from a "mechanic" who probably looks at a slack adjuster and says..they're self adjusting...aren't they ? :(
if you can't adjust your brakes you would not drive for me.
typical lunchbox carrying attitude.
Don can you share what your career is or was like.
Im not sure if its joking or what, it sounds like your saying a mechanic would lie in that situation..
I could help some in their business's, I would Fire every dam wanna be mechanic that thought that way. And wonder who thought they were qualified highering them.
Honesty has alway been the first decision maker in my rule book.
A qualified mechanic will or should have and maintain records, if the business doesnt have them or make proper time to train that. Its not much of a business.
I mean in these days record keeping of the technical level as that is elementary. I had to maintain records in "pen" in the early 80's and that did change quite a bit, I could go on extensively.
Labor day has been good, honestly!
Floyd
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 04, 2017, 02:16:15 PM
i can assure you...in a liability situ...the mechanic will say he did and the lawyer will say you should have.
there's a big difference between operator maintenance and repairs.
that said 99% of the people here aren't in and out of a shop every day...brakes can need adjusted (clutches too) 300 miles from a "mechanic" who probably looks at a slack adjuster and says..they're self adjusting...aren't they ? :(
if you can't adjust your brakes you would not drive for me.
typical lunchbox carrying attitude.
It's not an attitude - it's instructions. Drivers are not permitted to do any maintenance whatsoever. No modifications and no maintenance. We are allowed to inspect but instructed to limit that to tires, lights, seats, doors, windows, mirrors, horn, brakes (operation only) and floor.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk