I am considering replacing my propane fridge with a small apt sized fridge. I wonder if it is feasible to run this fridge from a small(under 1000w) quiet generator running it for a couple of hours every day. Of course one would have to be careful in how often your opened the fridge door.
I have seen many campers using a small, portable quiet Honda generator that they place away from their motorhome instead of using a big mounted generator.
Anyone done this.
Thx
Fred.
With the right battery bank and inverter, it's totally doable.
I use a small apartment fridge in mine. I typically run my generator once a day when boondocking to recharge the batteries and we don't do a lot of energy conservation.
I was thinking of doing it without a battery bank and inverter but instead powering it directly off the generator.
Sure, why not?
It'll work.
Run it in the am, run it in the aft or evening, depending on the temp loss thru the day, or how much open door time you have,
I would drill a hole somewhere safe, and put a temp probe for a mechanical thermometer, so you can see the temp without opening the door.
And add insulation to the outside of the box, everywhere, except where the heat exchanger is. Adding a fan to blow on the heat exchanger can help speed the process, if the ambient temp is hot.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Maybe something like one of these. Start your generator when the batteries get low.
http://www.roadtrucker.com/temperature-controll-coolers/koolatron-temp-controll-12-volt-coolers.htm (http://www.roadtrucker.com/temperature-controll-coolers/koolatron-temp-controll-12-volt-coolers.htm)
Seems quite doable. The key variable is the amount of insulation it has, the better insulated the less power you need. Allow extra space around it to really pack around insulation while still allowing the various elements to get proper circulation.
I have an old hair fridge myself. I'm sure it can be run from batteries. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170831/a4f3fa52a13e5e5e6b83b2a348565d07.jpg)
I suspect it's a power hog
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NovaKool dual voltage refrigerator. Not cheap, but pulls only 5.5 amps at 12v. I have the 9cu/ft and really like it. Quiet. Good Luck, TomC
Now this looks interesting..
http://www.novakool.com/products/conversion_units.htm
Build your own fridge with a handy kit.
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Check the price Z. almost a grand for the kit
Quote from: TomC on August 31, 2017, 04:56:22 PMNovaKool dual voltage refrigerator. Not cheap, but pulls only 5.5 amps at 12v. I have the 9cu/ft and really like it. Quiet. Good Luck, TomC
Mine's a bit smaller than Tom's (I think 7.9 cu ft. but not sure of exact), slightly less 12V current draw, not dual, only 12V. I like my NovaKool, too. The fridge is good, the freezer GREAT!!
Quote from: windtrader on August 31, 2017, 06:08:36 PM
Check the price Z. almost a grand for the kit
I couldn't find the price for that but... I did find condenser coils and evaporator coils online. Combine them with a 12v pump, a fan, thermostat and an expansion valve and you've got a fridge, freezer, air conditioner. Give it some rubber hose and you've got a mini split. For refrigerant.... the stuff in the car parts store. Easy easy.
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I just priced components for a DIY fridge. Using just car components available via eBay it's $110 excluding refrigerant and the pump. That's...
Evaporator coil
Condenser coil
Dryer
Expansion valve
Add in the pump, refrigerant, thermostat and rubber hosing and you have any one of the following...
Fridge
Freezer
Air Conditioner
A fan to blow heat away and another to circulate cold air might be helpful too.
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NovaKool is on my list for when my current electric fridge finishes dying.
If you read through their info online, they advise adding solid foam insulation during installation to further reduce electricity usage.
Richard
1964 PD4106-2412
Quote from: richard5933 on September 01, 2017, 04:16:24 AMNovaKool is on my list for when my current electric fridge finishes dying.
If you read through their info online, they advise adding solid foam insulation during installation to further reduce electricity usage.
Richard
1964 PD4106-2412
Price is stunningly high but mine has been solidly dependable and useful for about 6 years. If somebody stole mine, I'd replace it with another one even if the price had doubled.
Yeah, adding extra foam insulation is good for about anything. I've also found that directing a small fan into the (built in from the factory) air circulation vent at the bottom helps a lot in triple digit temps. As much as anything, I'd also suggest a layer of insulation against the inside surface of the side wall (i.e. with the air circulation channel and condenser area still free) -- I forgot to do that on my bus although I can retrofit it.
The unique thing I like about the NovaKool 9cu/ft is the compressor is on the bottom venting out the front. This means no rear or roof venting needed. Can build it in tight conserving space. I replaced my Norcold compressor type (that required rear venting) with the NovaKool and love it. I like it so much, I'm also using the 9 in my truck conversion. Now if it was self defrosting....Good Luck, TomC
How big of an inverter would be required to run JUST the fridge.
Length of time, of course, would depend on the battery bank.
Fred.
Quote from: Fred Mc on September 01, 2017, 09:46:20 AM
How big of an inverter would be required to run JUST the fridge.
Length of time, of course, would depend on the battery bank.
Fred.
If it's 12V, no inverter needed. I was afraid that 12V wouldn't give the punch needed -- no worry, it's fine.
We just replaced our fridge, as our old one was quite a pain with the freezer constantly frosting over and requiring defrost. And it wasn't really keeping stuff cold enough.
We went with a Danby 7.2 cuft, two door, apartment fridge from Amazon (Best Buy has them too).
That was primarily due to the space we had available. Slightly larger ones are available.
It was ~$400 shipped.
It works pretty well (sometimes too well as it can freeze stuff in the fridge if set too high).
It sips electricity (using ~1amp AC when running) and holds temp pretty well.
It did require a full run cycle when we first got it, requiring ~12-18 hours while set at highest setting.
After that, I'd say it comes on 3-5 times a day for about 15 minutes.
And we're constantly opening and closing it.
I have a wireless thermometer in there to give me fridge temp. On a setting of 4 it keeps the warmest part of the fridge to about 40 degrees. Which is sufficient to keep the other areas plenty cold, without freezing stuff.
I love having a separate freezer. And it's cold enough to actually store ice cream.
And it does not frost like the old one did. It'll collect some ice on the fridge side, but it's supposed to defrost that on its own.
The freezer requires manual defrost, but that has not been an issue so far (likely because it's opened and closed so much less now being a separate door).
I was planing on a 110v apt sized fridge so if I want to run it off batteries how large should the inverter be. I see Harbor FReight has a 750W inverter for $40.Would that handle the fridge?
Thx
Fred
Quote from: Fred Mc on September 01, 2017, 01:13:33 PM
I was planing on a 110v apt sized fridge so if I want to run it off batteries how large should the inverter be. I see Harbor FReight has a 750W inverter for $40.Would that handle the fridge?
You want to make sure that it's a pure sinewave inverter.
It doesn't have to be especially large (1 amp = 120 watts) for this fridge.
Of course that depends on the power draw for a different fridge.
But you don't want to buy one that's underpowered either.
So min 500w if you want to run this fridge and maybe a laptop.
I don't think something that size and that cost, will work. While it might (unlikely) be able to power it, it will be he** on the compressor (or any other regulated power device).
QuoteYou want to make sure that it's a pure sinewave inverter.
I don't think it's all that necessary, I ran a cheap 120V fridge on a modified inverter for 10 years in my semi with no problems. Until I switched my bus over for other reasons the fridge ran just fine on a modified. My toyhauler trailer has a 120V fridge that runs fine on a modified.
Quote from: somewhereinusa on September 01, 2017, 02:58:57 PM
I don't think it's all that necessary, I ran a cheap 120V fridge on a modified inverter for 10 years in my semi with no problems. Until I switched my bus over for other reasons the fridge ran just fine on a modified. My toyhauler trailer has a 120V fridge that runs fine on a modified.
me too. except 14 years.
if the refer is bluetooth and orders butter and eggs and sends text messages, you probably need the PSW :o
The Danby 7.3 Apt. fridge has an energy consumption of 343KWh per year.
How does that translate into what size generator you would need to run it?
Thx.
Fred
Quote from: Fred Mc on September 01, 2017, 09:33:58 PM
The Danby 7.3 Apt. fridge has an energy consumption of 343KWh per year.
How does that translate into what size generator you would need to run it?
There's really no linear relationship between those numbers.
The consumption rating is an aggregate average of power usage over an entire year.
When sizing a generator, however, your primary concern is its point in time output as related to an equivalent required load.
A 1000 watt generator can produce a max 1000 watts of power over a one hour period (most things in electricity consumption are based upon an hour's worth of use).
Respectively a 1 amp rated device will consume one amp of current in an hour.
To get watts from amps, you multiply amps by the line voltage.
In the case of US house line AC current, that is 120V.
So a 1 amp AC device consumes 120 watts of power in an hour.
As you can see, even the smallest generator has plenty of room to run a fridge of this size (as it is rated at 1 amp. For some reason danby makes finding this number a pain).
Keep in mind that motors do use more power on initial startup than when running.
So you would not want to have a fridge that is rated at 500 watts on a 500 watt generator, for example.
Also a generator running at full power will consume substantially more fuel than at 1/2 power.
...or in short, your average 1000 watt Honda generator would be perfect for running this, charging a small battery bank, and perhaps a operating light or two.
Somewhere on the fridge should be a sticker or plate of some kind with the power usage listed. Look for locked rotor amps. That is the maximum current that the compressor will pull in full locked rotor. The startup current usually will be equal to or less than this rating. I would take that number into consideration when sizing a generator or inverter for the surge capacity. I have a 10.1 cuft refer that draws around 65 watts. Locked rotor is rated at 8 amps. When it starts it will surge right to 8 amps for a fraction of a second, so pretty accurate.
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Curious why you are contemplating replacing your propane refer. I always heard they keep food good and cold and use little or no electric.
Rv refers (propane/electric) can sometimes be problematic, especially in hotter climates. I got tired of fuddle farting around with them years ago and replaced it with an electric house style refer. No comparison, i would never go back.
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I have a Summit bottom freezer. It is pretty tall but a small foot print. I think it has been discontinued but this one is close.
https://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/FFBF191SSX.html (https://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/FFBF191SSX.html)
Quote from: chessie4905 on September 02, 2017, 10:28:03 AM
Curious why you are contemplating replacing your propane refer. I always heard they keep food good and cold and use little or no electric.
My parents were donated one, many years ago and that ran with an electric heater element. It ran for years and years and they replaced the element once. I'm not quite sure why they didn't replace it with another when it stopped working the last time. Bear in mind, they had it for close to 30 years and it was probably just as old when they were given it.
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Our propane/electric frig has been fine for the 11 years we've had the bus, and it was old when we got it. We did have one problem some years ago when it did not seem to be cooling right on gas. It turned out that our main propane tank regulator had failed. I should have noticed that the cooktop flame was really low! Considering that we live in a desert, I did put in a small 12v fan to blow over the coils. It does help with the cool down, but I think the frig would work anyway since it did before the fan.
I really have liked it for dry camping. However, if it did fail I would look into other options also.
Quote from: chessie4905 on September 02, 2017, 10:28:03 AM
Curious why you are contemplating replacing your propane refer. I always heard they keep food good and cold and use little or no electric.
I got rid of my properly working propane fridge that was less than a year old because I don't want that much ammonia inside my coach.
I know it is rare to have that leak, but since I knew 2 people who were inside their camper when the ammonia leaked out. One lived a while, but his lung capacity was such that there was no quality of life.
So, that and the soft ice cream . . . . .
Samsung 26 cubic foot fridge was in our old bus. Similar but slightly smaller model in our new bus. Works perfect. Not much boondocking for us, but I like lots of food and I like it kept cold.
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Quote from: kyle4501 on September 02, 2017, 08:13:54 PMI got rid of my properly working propane fridge that was less than a year old because I don't want that much ammonia inside my coach.
I know it is rare to have that leak, but since I knew 2 people who were inside their camper when the ammonia leaked out. One lived a while, but his lung capacity was such that there was no quality of life.
So, that and the soft ice cream . . . . .
You could get hit head on by a Mack truck loaded with frilly undies and piloted by a driver too busy with his lot lizard to drive properly. That's probably more likely....
I don't have to worry. My bus currently changes all the air every 10 minutes and in a couple of weeks it will be every 5 minutes.
Had I realized earlier that there's zero advantage in any one kind of fan, I'd have gone for a pair of 7 inch fans and changed the air in 45 seconds.
As an afterthought... the refrigerants commonly used when combined with hydrocarbons e.g. Cigarette smoke become phosgene. That's a nerve gas and is quite toxic hence its use in war.
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Quote from: Zephod on September 03, 2017, 04:27:41 AM
I don't have to worry. My bus currently changes all the air every 10 minutes and in a couple of weeks it will be every 5 minutes.
I can't hold my breath for 5 minutes.
Ammonia is some seriously nasty stuff. It is very corrosive where other refrigerants - not so much.
It all boils down to personal choice - some like it, others don't. . .
BTW, almost $1500 for 9 cu ft propane -vs- 500 for 12 cu ft for 115v . . . .
Nobody has ever died from an absorption fridge. The worst apparently are norcold fridges that catch fire. I did a hunt and can find no evidence of anybody being killed by their fridge.
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Ny Norcold is on propane 100% as the bus is in boondock mode. It uses a 5 gallon tank every two weeks, a lot more than I assumed. Currently, planning on adding solar and assessing the size of the system needed. If the electrical use is not much, I'll switch to AC and save the LP, leaving the oven and stove as the only LP in the coach.
Quote from: Zephod on September 03, 2017, 06:29:57 AM
Nobody has ever died from an absorption fridge. The worst apparently are norcold fridges that catch fire. I did a hunt and can find no evidence of anybody being killed by their fridge.
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I'm sure the widows will be comforted by the results of your search.
The other fellow may not have died immediately, but the complications from the exposure led to his death within the next year or so.
Just because the instances are rare, does not mean the concerns aren't valid.
I have worked in plants that use ammonia as refrigerant for their freezers. The safety precautions for ammonia systems are substantial.
Propane explosions are rare, yet many shops will not allow propane tanks inside - they work on RVs outside. . . . .
Propane fridge fires are definitely a thing...google that
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Nowadays I would think an electric fridge would be the way to go. Hands down!
Of course there is a plethora technology behind that.
In my experience, I found propane fridges quite finicky.
Without seeing any news articles about people being killed by absorption fridges, I'm forced to assume this is another urban myth.
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Quote from: Zephod on September 04, 2017, 02:30:15 AM
Without seeing any news articles about people being killed by absorption fridges, I'm forced to assume this is another urban myth.
Exposure to high concentrations of ammonia in air causes immediate burning of the nose, throat and respiratory tract. This can cause bronchiolar and alveolar edema, and airway destruction resulting in respiratory distress or failure.
And you are allowed to make your own assumptions - even if they are wrong and misinformed. It isn't the absorption fridge that caused the problem, it was the concentration of ammonia that was between them & the door. Might not be a big deal for young healthy people, but folks with certain health issues are more prone to complications. Ammonia may not be the cause, but it certainly can contribute.
I can't imagine why one would base assumptions based on what was not in the news. Having to sell their camper because they can't use it anymore because of the complications from exposure didn't make the news either.
Recently, there was a house fire in my neighborhood. Nothing in the news about it, a murder suicide - also not in the news. . . . . Based on your logic, both of those events are urban myths.
Enjoy your bliss ;)
so has anyone found a high efficient 120 volt fridge and freezer ? ( low amps and more insulation )
dave
These people have several
http://www.conservrefrigerators.com/conserv.html (http://www.conservrefrigerators.com/conserv.html)
Quote from: kyle4501 on September 04, 2017, 05:43:47 AM
Exposure to high concentrations of ammonia in air causes immediate burning of the nose, throat and respiratory tract. This can cause bronchiolar and alveolar edema, and airway destruction resulting in respiratory distress or failure.
And you are allowed to make your own assumptions - even if they are wrong and misinformed. It isn't the absorption fridge that caused the problem, it was the concentration of ammonia that was between them & the door. Might not be a big deal for young healthy people, but folks with certain health issues are more prone to complications. Ammonia may not be the cause, but it certainly can contribute.
I can't imagine why one would base assumptions based on what was not in the news. Having to sell their camper because they can't use it anymore because of the complications from exposure didn't make the news either.
Recently, there was a house fire in my neighborhood. Nothing in the news about it, a murder suicide - also not in the news. . . . . Based on your logic, both of those events are urban myths.
Enjoy your bliss ;)
The house fire in your neighborhood and the murder suicide, tragic as they were, are one-off events. Samsung Galaxy 7 fires are known hazards. Absorption fridges killing people are not known events. In fact the last time somebody was killed by a fridge was yesterday but it was not ammonia poisoning - it was carbon monoxide.
On August 20 somebody was killed by a flying fridge door (after shooting it, after filling the fridge with tannerite).
Wikipedia lists refrigerator death as being suffocation caused by being trapped inside a fridge with a latch.
Nowhere can I find any information on people being killed by absorption fridges. This leads me to conclude that like your neighborhood, this is so incredibly rare that it's not worth counting. I'd say more people were killed by the Samsung Galaxy 7.
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Look, whether there are hard and fast statistics to support any claim, at the end of the day, every one of us has a comfort zone with all aspects of life including buses. Some busnuts do not want any LP in the coach for house systems, fine. Some run down the road with the LP refrig running full tilt (me). I'd bet if we agree to meet up 10 years from now, none of us won't be showing up because of something directly related to our buses.