About this time last year, we experienced what can best be described as an epic failure of our engine. It's one of those gut wrenching fears I'm sure many of us have running in the back of our minds. And it happened to us on one of the most treacherous highways in the country. Like I said, epic.
I write this rather long saga down mostly as catharsis but also to share with the group our experience so that maybe someone can avoid our mistakes, and to provide an update since we had essentially (unintentionally) disappeared from this community and I wanted to once again reconnect and if nothing else express deep gratitude for those that have provided guidance, support, if not outright help!
This is lengthy and yet doesn't really scratch the surface of what all I could write. So I apologize in advance for that.
Many different events, many different choices, and many different paths were before us that we had to choose, and we had to do so rather quickly. We attempted to do as much homework as possible on each decision, but at some point one must .... or get off the pot. Those decisions were even more pressing as this is also our home.
Fate settled us on a shop in Farmington NM and off we went. We researched as much as we could about the shop to make sure they could actually do the work. Once we got there we had our first experience, where we had their mechanic diagnose the immediate problem. That actually went fairly well and he was able to diagnose the problem quickly. And frankly that experience was one of reasons I stuck with this shop. He had previous bus experience, worked on a fleet of GMs in a previous job, and seemed quite knowledgable. Little did I know, that even though he was the one promised, he was not the one that would actually work on the bus. When I asked why, I was assured that he was constantly "checking in" on the other guy.
It became obvious the problem was serious and pointed to other potential issues this particular engine could also have. I'm not going to go through all of that here, as most of that is in my previous 'engine toasted' post. But needless to say an engine rebuild was now one of our narrowing options. (Cutting our loses was perhaps another option, but c'est la vie).
We had the choice of having this shop here do the rebuild, order a remanufactured one from somewhere else for this shop to install, or just take our bus elsewhere to be worked on. At that time we viewed those options as being equals.
We could not have been more wrong.
As the options narrowed we had to make a decision and so we decided to order a remanufactured engine (as I no longer trusted this one) but would have the shop in Farmington install it. When we discussed this option with the shop, they assured me they had the skill and ability to do the work, hell they were "looking for work and would be happy to do it".
Thanks to the advice of some on the board, and my own interaction with them, we decided to get the engine from American Fleet in Springfield, MO. Right off the bat my experience with them was a positive one. They were very up front about the entire process -what they would deliver for what price, and how to move the process forward. And that they could also do the install and gave me an immediate bid for how long it'd take them to do the install. They also made themselves readily available for questions (before and well after the sale). So based on that experience I felt confident moving forward with the order.
That would perhaps be the only good thing during this ordeal!
One of the options we had on the table was to tow our bus to Springfield for American Fleet to do the work. And I strongly considered that option. I especially liked it since buses are pretty much "what they do" and after all they're the ones building the engine. But after incessant and repeated assurances from the shop in Farmington that "they've got this", I figured why lug it halfway across the country?
That would be a fateful decision indeed.
Anyway, I got several bids from places for the amount of time required to complete this work, and all came to about 48-60 hours. That was to take out the old engine, disassemble the accessories on it, send the core back, and reassemble and install the new engine. That was also what the shop in Farmington promised. "We can have it out in a day, maybe two, then 2-3 days to put it back, and a day maybe two for troubleshooting", was the exact quote I got.
Can I get that in writing, I asked? "Well no, I don't think so. We just don't know what'll happen when we get in there and I'm not going to do that", was the reply. "But it'll be fine, it doesn't look that bad".
So off we went.
It should've become abundantly clear to me things were not as expected, when it took them over a week just to disassemble the engine components in prep for shipment back to American. But by that point inertia was well in charge and things were moving. "It took a little longer than we thought, but we'll make this right", he said.
We finally sent the engine to American.
American wanted the old engine first to make sure that what we got back would slide back in without too much problem. We agreed and sent them the old engine. It took them a couple of days longer than expected. They ran into a turbo problem while dynoing it. And also needed the shop in Farmington to answer some questions about the alternator, that eventually needed American telling them explicitly what to do to get the answer. But overall the rebuild moved smoothly and I was kept in the loop about status the entire time.
Now our engine was on a crate headed back to Farmington.
Finally, I thought; we might be leaving here soon! Ha!
The engine arrived and the shop that was "looking for work" now didn't have time to work on it. That's ok, I thought, and I tried to remain positive. "We'll get to you next week. You'll be out of here in no time", he said. So the next week came and went. Eventually by mid the following week someone started putting the pieces back on. Week ended. How are we looking, I asked? "We're almost there, we've almost got it, just a few more things". Another week, repeat. Another week, repeat. Another week, repeat? Another?? Things just kept sliding and sliding and sliding. And every time I would call and ask about status I would keep being told that "we're almost there, we've almost got it, just a few more things". And of course the tab was running the whole time. Couple that with the fact that we were living in a hotel now for over 2 months, and you can imagine the stress level.
I won't go through all of the agonizing details, because frankly someday I'd like to black this whole experience from my memory. But I was, of course, highly concerned about just how much all of this was going to cost me. I had a long and heated exchange with the shop manger. He acknowledged that "things are going much slower than they should be" and he assured me he'd "take care of me". Another two weeks later and it was finally "done". And, of course, along with that came the bill.
The shock that was on my face is needless to describe. His "taking care of me" amounted to a 10% discount on labor -never mind that it was over 4 times what he'd promised, and four times what anyone else said they could do the exact same work for. And that was after claiming that they "didn't even bill all the time they could have working on it".
As an example, perhaps to plead his case (or professs his ignorance, you decide) he told me it took 3 guys over 5 hours just to slide the engine up and into the engine bay! That's right, 15 man-hours just to place the engine up in the bay.
I honestly do not know if these guys were intentionally trying to screw me over. I like to think the best in people. Perhaps that's naive, but I like thinking that in people -albeit that has now been amended accordingly.
Ultimately I really think it came down to them having no clue what to do with this engine and this bus. But whether through pride, need, or greed decided to keep on keeping on, running the meter the whole time.
In addition to the usual engine swap, I did have them run new hoses for the oil and coolant. I also had the radiator recored (not by them, but a radiator shop). I also had the power-steering piston removed and replaced with a rebuilt one from Luke. So I guess in his defense he tried to "do what he could", but "his hands were tied beyond that".
So I paid the bill. What else could I do? I was being held hostage, and my home was being held hostage, and frankly what else could I do?
After paying the bill (when they finished it on a Friday afternoon at 4:30) everyone in the shop took off, and I was left there in the parking lot, alone. You can imagine what that felt like...
We left the shop but tried to stay local to the area to shake out any outstanding items.
First item, the tach doesn't work any more. I called the shop. "We didn't do anything with your tach". Well I had a working tach when I got here and now it doesn't work. "Talk to the engine people", they said, "maybe they know what happened". After several rounds of back and forth their answer is basically the tach must've just gotten eaten by gremlins. Because the wire that attaches to it is gone, the sender for it is gone, and the drive for it is gone. Fortunately in my conversation with American they said they'd look at it and figure it out, when I was in their shop next.
And that they did. When we were in their shop last month, they found the sender wire, wrapped in wire-loom, and tucked up into the engine bay. They traced it, reattached it, resynched the tach, and now it works perfectly.
That was of course after figuring out that the Farmington shop had broken the stud on the alternator that wire attaches to. It is fortunately still attached inside and a little creative engineering by yours-truly allowed them to place the wire back on the alternator.
Second item. The air seems to vanish from (all) the tanks about 45 minutes to an hour after we stop. When we rolled in there, I could hold 100 lbs of air overnight, and 50+ for a day or two. Again talked to the shop. "We don't know what happened. We didn't do anything to the air. We just unplugged this and that. Must be your compressor". No, all of the tanks have one-way valves so even if the compressor did now develop a mysterious leak, it wouldn't leak back out of the tanks. "Well we don't know what happened". And that was that.
Third item: The morning we were planning on leaving, about 30 or so minutes into the trip, I noticed that the volt meter was only reading 12, not the usual 13.7 when the engine is running. Great, now the alternator doesn't work!
So I tried to troubleshoot it, but I couldn't figure out what was wrong. So I called the shop. Told them I was coming by for them to look at. They looked at it, and I think you know what's coming next. "We don't know what's wrong with it". We unplugged these wires and put them back, and it should be working". So after going round and round on that, they said I would need to go to an alternator shop in the morning and have them take a look.
Frantic I reached out to Clifford, who (thankfully) quickly informed me it's likely the field wire isn't hooked up. So I traced the wires, using a tone generator, and found the field wire... you guessed it, wrapped in wire loom and tucked up into the engine bay. So I reattached it and magic, the alternator works again!
Fourth item: I have not solved this yet as I did not discover it until we were well out of that hellhole, but there appears to be a leak from the transmission, around what I assume to be the pneumatic actuator for the transmission. The transmission works and shifts fine, but it's leaking around the hole where that thing is inserted. I've messed with it some (rotating it to see if it seats better), but that seems to make no difference. It's a slow leak, but over time (weeks) does lower the fluid level in there.
So that's the story as I can best distill it. I can of course write an entire novel about this experience, but that would be depressing work and no one would read it.
But it's not all bad. I try to view every experience in life as learning oppertunities. And a year later, I'm still digesting the lessons to be learned here.
On the positives,
-The new engine looks and sounds great!
-It also runs great too. No huge plumes of smoke starting from a stop. Relatively zippy response from a dead stop (it is a bus, not a Porsche, after all :) ).
-It fires right up (second crank attempt at above 50 degrees outside temps).
-The temps look great. We barely broke 175-180 on a climb. With occasional peaks into the 185 territory on a climb with 85 degree outside temps. Granted this wasn't a huge climb, but decent.
-Having installed all new hoses (something I was unaware of at the time would cost me a small fortune in parts), look great and should hopefully be better than some of the old and dry-cracked ones they replaced.
I feel better and more confident about our bus. I do go back and forth about this. This is still a 50 year old bus, with equivalently old technology (even if the engine is "new"). The warranty on the engine will expire in a couple of months. And due to a series of coinciding family issues, we have not been able to put nearly the miles on it that I would've liked. So we'll see what time will bring, going forward.
Lessons learned,
-GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING. I know it sounds like an almost simplistic cliche, but do it. Everyone is smiles and handshakes at the beginning, saying "sure we can do that, no problem". But without a clear understanding of what's being done, when; if there's any "confusion", you'll be the one holding the short end of the stick.
-Have a clear scope of the work being done. Know what's being done, when, where, by whom, and for how much!
-This one is less doable, especially if you're broken down and have few options but, work with people you can almost implicitly trust to do the job.
-Plan on everything going horribly wrong and out of kilter. It might just be what saves your sanity!
-Know when to say "when". I let inertia run this process for quite a while. A smarter monkey might've said, "done, I'm taking my toys and leaving" (especially after it took them a week just to get the engine disassembled for shipment). But I allowed myself to be trapped by inertia.
If I had a time-machine, I would, without any doubt in my mind, have put the bus on a trailer and had it towed to American fleet. My experience with them so far shows them to know what they're doing, easy to work with, and committed to service. Now granted, I have no idea what would've actually happened; if I had this bit of foresight and taken it there. And I obviously never will. But I am eternally thankful that I at least chose to order my engine from them and not had that rebuild also done in Farmington (I might still be there with them still "really really close now, to getting it done")!
All in all this was a painful, exhausting, time consuming, mentally draining, soul-sapping, and of course quite expensive experience. But, this too shall pass. I hope that someday I'll look back on this as a great learning experience and good story (as all good stories have horrible crap that happens in them). But for now, it still stings, albeit slightly less with each passing day.
Above all, thank you all for your help and guidance and advice. Honestly I'm not sure how well I would've managed if I didn't have your help.
Thank you!!
George
Good article but I guess I missed the "WHO" part. :o
A huge thank you to you for posting this very professional recap. It is certainly not the first one of it's kind that I have heard. I have over 40 years experience owning my own truck and bus fleets and personal converted coaches. My heart bleeds for those of you who somehow get caught up in these situations, held hostage through no fault of your own. I urge anyone who is thinking about owning these older coaches to think seriously before you jump in. The exceptions of course would be the independently wealthy or someone who has vast mechanical ability. This hobby is not for the faint of heart. And as time marches on, the buses keep getting older, the parts keep getting harder to find, and qualified mechanics keep disappearing. So sorry for your experience.
George,
Sharing your experience is invaluable for many here, me included. Clearly, this episode was very painful, then and probably still now. It's not often one recounts and shares the gory details after the fact. You had the resources and will to see the project to the finish line; I suspect many more projects came up short and just a statistic to another stalled conversion.
No matter how experienced a busnut is, experiencing a major mechanical breakdown far from home in unfamiliar territory is a daunting challenge. Most likely a reputable and respected bus mechanic is a long way away and an expensive tow.
Getting a reman from a reputable rebuilder is the preference if the engine was pretty well beat. I've only recently bought my first conversion and so, so, so many advertise "rebuilt engine" with various level of documentation and detail, the risk is quite significant to the true state of the motor. At least you can sleep well knowing the motor is as solid as possible.
It can be a tough decision on who you choose to replace the motor. Likely a shop with a solid reputation is a long tow away. Choosing a convenient shop is another big risk factor.
Time. Having the problem blow up and no time to casually mull over the options often leads to a less than stellar path forward. Did you consider having it stored locally or towed home then figure things out with less pressure and the luxury of time? Recently, another busnut here found a good motor in another coach at a very good price, put that motor in his coach and disposed of the coach, and still ahead.
Lots of things to ponder when faced with such a situation, so thanks again for sharing. don
WOW ! glad its all over and running great
when I started looking for a bus to convert the 1st thing I told myself was that the engine had to be rebuilt and if one does that before it dies on the road the cost was not that bad and it was in my back yard and on my time . total time from the removal to drive it away was about 1.5 months and again on my time and I sent the engine out for full rebuild
yes the cost was a lot but only about 10 % of the complete build to a rv
it is always sad to see this happen on the road when you are not in control
again glad to here all is good now
dave
I am about ready to sell my bus and crap like this is weighing heavily on my decision.I have come up with some great folks but I can tell you ,the people that don't know a bus from a billy goat far out weigh the Good ones .I am beginning to think I have the word "SUCKER" tattooed on my forehead.And I mean these are not fly by night out fits either .But so far I have paid out good money and either got nothing for it or the job was botched and I had to either take the bus back repeatedly or had to get some one else to fix it. These outfits include Piedmont Truck Tire ,WNC Freightliner,Ken Wilson Ford ,Clarke Power Service,Carolina Transport Air service,and just last week Snider Tire and the list goes on .And I have found out one thing you don't say To these folks.That is "I am in no hurry".
Glad that you are are the road again, but boy that sounds like it was a nightmare.
Even the shops with experienced techs take a long time on these, at least from what I've seen. The Interstate location in Milwaukee has a tech with 40 years' experience working on DD 2-strokes, and it took him over a month to do a rebuild on a marine version of an 6V92. Each time I went back for more work on my coach I was able to watch him meticulously take apart and rebuild the engine. Seemed like he did nothing but that rebuild for over a month. It sure was pretty in the end though, all dressed in bright white paint and chrome trim!
I'm at the starting phase of bus life, but I hope that I'm able to avoid your experience. There's only so much preventative work that can be done however, as things happen on 53-year-old equipment at the worst possible moment and usually in the most inconvenient and dangerous places.
I hope that you have nothing but enjoyment from here on...
Richard
You need a passion for old buses like Boomer says it is not for the weak,working on old buses now has became a restoration project now it takes weeks to do a 1 day job just chasing parts.
Shop prices are out of sight now I have saw bills from Williams for engine rebuilds on 8v92's ranging from 30k to 50k same with the series 60 engines,your average shop labor now is over a 1000 bucks a day just for labor for 1 person
Quote from: luvrbus on August 31, 2017, 08:55:16 AM
Shop prices are out of sight now I have saw bills from Williams for engine rebuilds on 8v92's ranging from 30k to 50k same with the series 60 engines,your average shop labor now is over a 1000 bucks a day just for labor for 1 person
Exactly right and maybe $1000 per day is OK if the guy knows what he is doing. We thought we got really good value from Luke & the 2 Oscars all those years ago in Vineland. It wasn't anywhere near $1000 per day but it wasn't cheap either. It sounds like George got caught in an earn as you learn program and those really p*** me off. But its not always easy to recognize them going in. And its a given that when disaster strikes you are going to be a long way from home, likely in unfamiliar territory.
Luke is close to a 1000 bucks a day now Bob his friggn insurance went through the roof
Quoteworking on old buses now has became a restoration project now it takes weeks to do a 1 day job just chasing parts
Clifford, This is so true. Awhile back while searching for the bus, one of the sellers spoke highly of the shop that did all his bus work. While speaking to him a couple times about the bus, I mentioned I'd look him up when I got a bus and needed some work. His statement . "I'm not working on buses anymore", conveying his frustration that these things are restoration jobs rather than repair jobs anymore. Same comment about spending far too much unknown time searching for parts or always opening up a can of snakes when going to fix one thing and finding a bunch of other stuff. Unhappy shop owner losing money and unhappy spending more and waiting longer. Busnuts need to ban the word repair and start using restore for anything that needs fixing. LOL, but actually true
I would like to have a rebuilt engine and transmission ready to ship on a pallet. So if I had a catastrophic failure on the road, I could ask the neighbor to send it out to me.
Breaking down thousands of miles from home would be stressful for sure...
The last time I brought a bus back to the shop where I drive, the mechanic started taking off an idle pulley at the back of the engine. I said: "there is nothing wrong with this pulley, why are you taking it off". He said:" it's been on here long enough, our history with other buses tells me that it is close to the end of its life. It is easier to replace it here at home than far away in the middle of a tour". They replace a lot of parts like this before they fail. I guess that is why it is called "preventive" maintenance.
Replacing parts, or rebuilding an engine or tranny before it fails has a lot of merit...
Of course you could still break down, but preventive maintenance lessens the chances.
This thread sure makes you think what would I do if this happened to me...
Good post. Thank you.
JC
While we all love the success stories, I appreciate you sharing your story in such detail Geoff. I think about this exact scenario as we live and drive our bus around. Even minor stoppages make you question if you are making the right decisions. At some point I don't doubt my engine will need a rebuild and without any experience, this board and a post like yours are invaluable. I hope you have many happy years with that new engine. Craig
This is why I paid $750 to have my bus towed from L.A. to Bakersfield for Don Fairchild to work on it.
And this is also why I'm switching to a truck conversion. Easy to work on it, everyone knows the Caterpillar 3406B mechanical AND Cat still makes the nearly same engine-3406C. Good Luck, TomC
Thank you all for the kind words and well wishes.
I am happy with our new engine and hope for many many long years of using it without issue. I had hoped we'd've put a lot more miles on it, while it was still under warranty; but alas other life realities prevented that. SO we'll just have to hope for the best.
For reference the shop in question was Stewart and Stevenson in Farmington, NM. Another reason I even considered letting them do that work was because they're not exactly a no-name outfit. I mean "repowers are what we do" is something that they want to be known for. At this point I wouldn't have them repower a go-kart, let alone something like this. Other locations might be different, so I don't know.
I do think I got trapped in a "learn as you earn" type of setup, all on my dime. I feel that if I'd gotten the original mechanic promised, it wouldn't have taken nearly this long. But he was "busy" working on other stuff, is what I kept getting told.
As Clifford said, you do have to have a passion for these things. And I do love this little bus... albeit with a twinge of growing regret now 3 years into it. And we tried to do it "right". We researched the models. We researched the engines. We researched this specific bus. We even researched the previous owners (whom we love by the way).
And while we were going through this mess, I called the previous-previous owner. And he assured me that this was a "rebuilt crate" engine he bought from the Dallas Area Transit fleet -when they switched buses. I reached out to him for help in researching some parts. He really had no reason to even say anything at all, but he made a point of telling me that and was shocked at how long the engine lasted.
But I guess it all came down to s***ty luck. Whatever genius adjusted those valves, adjusted it like it was a 4-stroke and not a 2-stroke. Over time that caused gradual damage, that eventually ended catastrophically as it did.
Frankly I'm shocked the thing ran at all, configured that way. But it ran fine until it didn't any more.
It didn't help that at the same time, I'd started noticing it smoke a LOT more and that its get-up-and-go had gone up and went. But we were in CO at the time and I attributed that to altitude. And of course it was that same s***ty luck that put us in the clutches of that shop.
But anyway, I'm hoping to put all of this behind us now and get back to what we bought this thing to do.
Thanks again,
George
When I read stories like this, it reinforces my belief it is the specific mechanic that matters most, not the company reputation. Maybe for newer stuff that works but there is no substitute for a truly experienced 2 stroke diesel and bus mechanic.
Luckily when we blew our engine we were 30 miles from home and 90 miles from Geoff. Had it towed to his place, no charge AAA Plus paid the bill. Pulled in the back side of his shop and the tow truck went out the front, dropped it and reloaded things in to the truck and off to Lave Powell. He did one hell of a job a great big thank you Geoff and he has also rescued us in Ash fork, 75 miles from his house with a rebuilt fuel pump.
Quote from: windtrader on September 01, 2017, 11:47:58 AM
When I read stories like this, it reinforces my belief it is the specific mechanic that matters most, not the company reputation. Maybe for newer stuff that works but there is no substitute for a truly experienced 2 stroke diesel and bus mechanic.
an apprentice should be able to R&R a motor in in less than 24 hours..much less.
After my experience with a guy that put 'con' in concrete finisher, and reading about your experience -- I have come to the conclusion that if they won't put it in writing that you agree with, it is because they KNOW they will be charging you more, LOTS MORE - or- providing less, lots less . . . .
Sometimes, I am my own worst enemy. Hopefully, I'll learn from my mistakes & not repeat them ( well , not very often . . . . )
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 01, 2017, 05:52:09 PM
an apprentice should be able to R&R a motor in in less than 24 hours..much less.
the point is avoid having someone learning at your expense, an apprentice falls into that category.
George,
I hope one day we will meet up. We can compare experiences over a beer or two. We have a 1970 PD-4108, very similar to your coach. We were stuck in Modesto CA for 7 weeks going through the same fun and games. We even had the same experience with our tach because the shop knocked a wire loose on the alternator. We barely made the 1000 mile trip home as our charging system was not working. I was so frustrated I couldn't look at the bus when we got it home and immediately put it up for sale. We got no decent offers and now that I've calmed down, we've been enjoying the rebuilt engine and are no longer interested in selling it.
So much of your story mirrors ours that it's scary. We weighed all our options like you did and chose an inframe rebuild. If I was to do it again, I would have put the bus in storage, gone home and taken my time with the decision. The financial aspect was the main stressor in the whole thing.
We were lucky that the shop stuck to their original quote, but they were busy and often put us aside for regular customers. At the time Modesto had the highest per capita crime rate in California and although the shop offered to let us stay in our bus, we didn't feel safe in their location. Add 7 weeks of (dog friendly) hotel costs to the rebuild.
Bryan
Quote from: qayqayt on September 02, 2017, 05:53:12 PM
George,
I hope one day we will meet up. We can compare experiences over a beer or two.
...
Bryan, you're on! A beer or three to commiserate our mutual misfortune and soak our shared sorrow actually sounds fun :D
And wow, our stories are sadly eerily similar indeed -right down to scrambling to find a hotel (at 4:30 on a Friday when we were first told we couldn't actually stay in our bus while they worked on it, after we were initially told we could). We had 30 minutes to find a hotel that would take us and our 100 lb Great Dane :/
Fortunately we were able to find one. But man oh man, I've spent enough time living in a hotel room to last me multiple lifetimes!
Hopefully when we next meet, we'll also be able to share some good times -to balance out the not so pleasant ones.
We're in the Saint Louis area at the moment.
Not sure when we'll be heading out again, but when we do our plans will take us west.