I have read a lot of posts about batteries here, thank you so much to all of you who have posted over the years. I am learning. I have found that it is very difficult to find 8DAGM batteries locally, and they are very expensive to ship. Would I be wise to use 4 group 31 batteries as my start/house battery bank? It won't be the end of my battery bank it is just the beginning. And for now they will only be used as start batteries until I actually get an inverter. I have read the arguments against using deep cycle batteries a start batteries, but I am confident that there is enough cold cranking apps for this to work. Plus I will be adding more batteries to the max very soon. I also know that it's not conventional to use your start batteries as house batteries in a combined battery bank, but once again I am taking a slightly different road as I have done many times with this bus and it has worked for me. Well I want to know is if for group 31's will do the trick? I have read several times were people used three group 31's? I'm not 100% sure why they would use that configuration?
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I'd be one of those who would urge you to separate the start & house batteries.
If you have room for 4 batteries, couldn't you use two for house and two for start? For so many reasons your proposal seems fraught with potential for problems, and the main one I'd always fear is being left with batteries too weak to turn the engine and start. All it would take is accidentally walking away or falling asleep with power on to something and coming back to a bad situation.
Richard
3 group 31's are for a 12 v system wired in parallel for a 24v system you use 2 or 4 (12v) batteries wired in series
What Richard said. Owning a bus and doing it right means you have to spend a dollar or two.
I would be more inclined to use start batteries as a combined temporary house/start bank. Without that big inverter the deep cycle loads on the batteries will be very small, and start batteries can handle that just fine. Start batteries are optimized for quick delivery and acceptance of power during and after starting, will handle the small house loads fine, and you can add deep cycle batteries when and if you decide to.
Brian
Thanks cliff. That's what I needed to know. Guys, there are several on various bus forums who have successfully built only one combined bank for starting and for house. I'm headed that direction and in that camp. Definitely appreciate the heads up for the issue this could cause and I might be back on here eating crow soon (and I will own up to it if this is a huge mistake) but I've done a few things really unconventional on my two bus conversions including a combined black grey combo tank with grey diverter valves as well as things like putting drywall in my bus and other things many said shouldn't be done, and yet it works for us perfectly. I have twin Honda generators that can charge my batteries if they get low for a start situation and I will eventually have such a large bank that even at a 50% discharge they should start the coach no problem. Again, reading through the history on here there's a good few who have done this...bob of the north I think is one of them. Also, 4 group 31 deep cycle batteries even with the slightly reduced CCA will still start my coach. Remember, for two years I've been starting my coach with TWO group 31's even in the dead of Michigan winter (no block heater installed yet) so I should be ok in that area. Thanks again for the advice, I always appreciate it. I'll report back how I like or hate this setup. That being said, I am installing a dual group 31 batter setup in my toad that can and will be used to start the bus in a majorly messed up situation if ever needed.
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I have talked directly to Lifeline AGM battery factory. They said that the power and output of the batteries are directly in relation to how much they weigh. Two 8D's will give 510amp/hr. 5-31 batteries will give about the same. Plus size 31 batteries are a whole lot easier to handle then the 8D's. Good Luck, TomC
Scott,
If you placed your order, i'm too late. Having just spent many days deep diving into battery technology, I'm hoping to have made solid design and purchase decisions for my RV requirements.
Start, marine, and deep cycle are designed differenty, each optimized for the type of use. Start batteries provide high amps for short durations, deep cycle batteries draw less amps for longer durations, and marine batteries are hybrid to serve as both start and deep cycle.
The plates in start batteries are thinner while deep cycle are thicker. You can actually see the difference if you look into the holes.
SOC (State of Charge) and DOD (Depth of Discharge) indicate how much power is in the battery. 100 pct SOC and 0 pct DOD indicate battery is full.
Starts are designed to remainn above 80 pct SOC, so you really have only 20 pct usable power from the battery. Deep cycle can go to 50 pct DOD with little damage, Both types suffer from reduced cycles the more you draw them down. Refer to charts showing this characteristic.
The main advantage of starts is you get more power with less battery; this works perfectly for starting motors in the most cost effective manner.
There is no technical reason that I can discern that a deep cycle bank offering the same cranking amps as the start should work fine. Naturally, most do not choose this path due to increased cost, weight, and maintenance.
Using start batteries for deep cycle purposes is a bad idea, plain and simple. If you plan on using the battery bank for house use then choose deep cycle. Deep cycle can start, starts as house will unperform.
On the topic of single bank vs seperate. The most important and critical functtion in your coach is the abbility to start. Unless you can guarantee your single bank will never get drawn down to the point of starting your coach then you are ok. If not, then seperate banks are needed.
Two banks tied together is how I'm currently configured with two disconnects. Between the house and start there is a disconnect sepearting them so the start will always keep a charge. Between the coach and the start is a disconnect to protect the start from any draw from the coach, again protecting the start.
When underway I connect the house and start if I want the alternator to charge both banks. Under certain circumstances I'll let both banks serve house needs. If ever the start gets run down, my generator can charge up both banks so the bus will start after a bit of charging.
Without a house bank disconnect, it is possible to draw the batterry down to zero, a fatal condition. I'm planning to add a disconnect in the house bank to prevent such a total draw down when unattended. This did happen to me as the refrigerator uses some DC while running on propane, so it is a real world event.
Don
Any advice at this point is too late. 4 brand new group 31 AGM's are sitting in the back of the land cruiser waiting for me to install tomorrow (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170822/2e703d68c149c27710aa948df6658310.jpg)
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Quote from: TomC on August 22, 2017, 08:21:00 AM
I have talked directly to Lifeline AGM battery factory. They said that the power and output of the batteries are directly in relation to how much they weigh. Two 8D's will give 510amp/hr. 5-31 batteries will give about the same. Plus size 31 batteries are a whole lot easier to handle then the 8D's. Good Luck, TomC
I don't know how the new lithium technology works but with any battery based on lead plates this is absolutely true. Weight equals capacity. More weight is better.
These suckers are crazy heavy. Stupidly so. And I'm young and buff. Ok last question, can someone draw me a diagram on the best way to set and wire these? I know three fit width wise across the battery bay of my MCI and one has to go long ways in the back behind those three. Something like this, but i keep drawing wiring diagrams and my head is spinning. I have to do this right. Can someone help? 24 volt bus. 4 group 31 12 volt batts. I left out the polarity of the other batts because I honestly don't know how to sit them?? I know two in parallel and then the two sets get wired to each side of the bus negative/ground and positive:(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170823/e5170e462803c53cd9c15bbd73ce6293.jpg)
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This is the best configuration I could come up with...right? Wrong? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170823/9e724f8e8df91a42bf602d47ab7f7dea.jpg)
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That makes sense to me Scott. You'll also have to connect the middle negative to the top positive but you already knew that.
The goal is to keep the total cable length on the negative and positive paths as equal as possible. I'm not convinced it makes much difference on that short of cables but some know it all will question it if they are obviously different.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.batterytender.com%2Fhubfs%2Fimg%2Fseries13.gif%3Ft%3D1502980515821&hash=6387ac5637ddff2fe494400458bee0280fe156b7)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.batterytender.com%2Fhubfs%2Fimg%2Fseries12.gif%3Ft%3D1502980515821&hash=d98dc26e138809bc5891e8615714d0a31ead42c0)
Thanks Bob...forgot about that last connection lol. Don, your diagram is easy to read, I just have a hard time re-situating the batteries in my mind from your configuration to mine. Physically they'll only go into the battery bay in the configuration of my diagram.
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Ok they are in and the coach starts like someone stepped on it's tail!!! Holy cranking turnover! So I have 4 group 31 agm deep cycle batts in there and I don't perceive there will be any issues starting it in the cold when I've been cold starting on two group 31's for two years
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Good on you Scott! I like your setup and when my bats need replacing, I'm going to give it serious consideration. Will
I am firmly planted in the combined house/chassis battery camp.
my generator has a separate start battery tho :)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170824/059357894e16ef2e20ae36b5ac57a0ab.jpg)
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Yep my generators have their own batteries.
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I love the new cables and terminals you cleaned it up nicely
Lol. It looks a little chaotic to me but it was the only way. I'm out $80 for the cables and crimp ends. Also for everyone's joy, I bought these group 31 AGM's for $179 each at sams :)
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Quote from: Scott & Heather on August 23, 2017, 08:12:12 PM
Lol. It looks a little chaotic to me but it was the only way. I'm out $80 for the cables and crimp ends. Also for everyone's joy, I bought these group 31 AGM's for $179 each at sams :)
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Those batteries are made by DEKA so they should be a decent battery
Quote from: luvrbus on August 23, 2017, 08:15:43 PM
Those batteries are made by DEKA so they should be a decent battery
I have been told that LOWES is becoming a DEKA vendor... we'll see ;D
Maybe some dielectric grease coating those terminals will stave off the corrosion build up a while longer.
Good idea Jim. I'm on it
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Since you have an on-board generator - and presumably some form of mains battery charger, any concerns about not being able to start because of depleted batteries were never all that relevant
I also have four AGM group 31 batteries for starting my bus. I have replaced my starting batteries three times in eleven years. The AGM batteries have been going strong since 2010.
I just ordered a group 34 marine AGM battery for my generator last night. It was the least expensive AGM battery I could find. It has more than enough cranking amps to start the generator.
Quote from: Tony LEE on August 26, 2017, 11:58:10 PM
Since you have an on-board generator - and presumably some form of mains battery charger, any concerns about not being able to start because of depleted batteries were never all that relevant
My thoughts too until the start and house batteries were drawn down and I went to start the generator to charge them up. Generator battery was dead too. Dead in the water until generator battery got charged. LOL
I have 2-31 starting batteries. Since 1994, I'm on my third set (just installed 3 months ago). Using Duracell regular wet battery. Got them for $185.00 for the two at Bulbs and Batteries. Starting batteries can be jumped through a dash switched relay to the 2-8D AGM batteries for both charging the deeps going down the road, and for starting boost. Good Luck, TomC
Tom,
I have a manual coach to house battery bank disconnect. I've thinking about converting to a switching relay with the cobtrol inside the coach like you. I'll find a lighted switch, a lot easier to know state of battery banks.
Quote from: Scott & Heather on August 26, 2017, 09:26:38 PM
Good idea Jim. I'm on it
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5 years post AGM install, no battery terminal coating and no corrosion. nada, zip, none. they don't.
This isn't an issue at all for me just as Tony said. My generators both have a pull start option if each of their batteries die. I mean think about it, what are the odds that my combined house and start battery bank gets depleted, and both of my twin paralleled generator batteries die? Not going to happen. But if it does, I can pull start both of them. I am fully and completely convinced that I made a smart move spending my $900 on 4 deep cycle AGM group 31's and creating a combined start and house battery bank. Just makes perfect sense to me.
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What are planning on running off your battery bank I looked at those dual service batteries they were only 105 amp hrs ea, so you have a 210 AH battery bank @ 24v that is not going to run much for any length of time through a inverter you better keep the little Honda tuned up ;D
This is just the start of my bank. I'll add more later. I only want to run my LED ceiling lights and my samsung fridge which is rated at 1 amp. Literally. I don't boondock much, but sometimes on tour I like to shut the gennies down at night. With a big enough bank I might be able to go a partial weekend generator free.
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Quote from: Scott & Heather on August 27, 2017, 06:21:02 PM
and my samsung fridge which is rated at 1 amp. Literally.
Tell me more. I've never heard of a fridge that needs only one measly amp. With a fridge like that I wouldn't need to use a fridger (a chest freezer converted to run as a fridge) instead.
John
Quote from: Iceni John on August 27, 2017, 09:42:08 PMTell me more. I've never heard of a fridge that needs only one measly amp. With a fridge like that I wouldn't need to use a fridger (a chest freezer converted to run as a fridge) instead.
John
Yeah, one amp of what???? My Novacool is rated at 48 watts, steady state; 60 watts, max cool. That's 4/5 Amp @ 12.8V or 1/2 Amp @ 120V.
I'm guessing he meant 1 amp @ 120v. That battery bank won't last long running a fridge.
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Correct once compressor has started it uses only about 1 to 1.5 amps at 120v. Many people on various forums have said that this inverter Samsung fridge uses something like 70amps a day. I haven't worked out the math but if I get another 4 of these deep cycles for a total of 8, that would be 440 amp hours which I would think could get me through a day or two of led lights fridge and LED tv?
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Scott, I like the question mark. Same as mine. I' still trying the best ways to do an energy audit to ensure sufficient energy is both generated and stored. There are many variables to consider beyond raw watts drawn down. Long subject for some other threads but my first easy step is connecting a device that reports energy used over time as well as real time. At least that way, I'll can get a gross number of watts used over specific periods of time. Will feed future purchases for more house batteries and sizing of solar panels and charge controller.
Yeah I have a kill a watt meter. Time to get it out and put it to use I suppose
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There's so much you don't know until you do it and get your own real world numbers. I don't remember whether you have a state of charge meter Scott. If you don't you really do need one. Batteries don't die - they get killed. Just the idle load of the inverter can be a significant draw. Unless its really hot overnight your fridge will likely hold through the night without any power. We used to shut the inverter off completely overnight on the boat. Our bus had an absorption fridge so we ran it on propane when we needed to conserve power.
We've killed our fridge overnight before too. It stays cold. Again as long as ambient temps aren't hot. My question is how to reconcile a 24 volt battery bank when I'm giving away half the amp hours because they are in series.
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Simple, double up and run a parallel bank. :o
Quote from: Scott & Heather on August 28, 2017, 07:55:35 PMMy question is how to reconcile a 24 volt battery bank when I'm giving away half the amp hours because they are in series.
I'm sorry - I don't understand the question. Are you saying you have a 24 volt bank with a 12 volt tap for your inverter?
Quote from: bobofthenorth on August 29, 2017, 04:03:58 AMI'm sorry - I don't understand the question. Are you saying you have a 24 volt bank with a 12 volt tap for your inverter?
Yes, I couldn't quite figure that out, either. Amps and volts don't matter -- what does your work is watts. Switching from 12V to 24V has effects (battery cabling, wire sizes, etc.) but when you're dealing with energy storage and work, it's the watts and it's all the same. Scott isn't "giving up anything" in terms of watts.
Sorry for my muddy response. Since my coach start system and house system are technically one bank, I have to keep it set up in terms of 24 volts right? Batteries are in series which cuts my amp hours in half. I only have it this way of course for the coach 24 volt side. So if I wanted to get a 12 volt inverter and use it how do I do that while also providing 24 volts to the coach? I other words is there a magic way to have my four 12 volt batteries wired as four 12 volt batteries (105 ah each which totals to 420ah) versus 24 volt which cuts that in half. Or is this the precise reason to run two separate banks grrr
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You are using the wrong units and math.
the wattage of that collection of batteries does not change, whether you wire it up properly in 12 volt or 24 volt.
You have the same energy available, work out the math, your voltage number doubled, when your amp/hour number halved, in the equation for watts, it will work out to the same total.
I am a fan of single battery bank, busnuts haul around way too much wasted money in redundant lead.
Dead batteries are the result of carelessness, ignorance, and/or insufficient funds spent on over-seeing electronics.
Each of us can manage to regulate our breathing? Then regulate your batteries similarly?
Don't screw around, put the kids on Kraft Dinner, and go get that big Magnum 4024.
Manage available incoming power, really convenient when all that is available is a 15 amp extension cord. Use the power in the coach at will, the Magnum will just take what it is allowed from the cord, and make up the rest from the battery bank, and goes back to charging when the power consumption drops sufficiently to allow that. No more blown breakers inside that locked facility during the night... built-in superior multi-stage charger...
You buy how many hundred dollars of batteries, try to take care of them with inadequate collection of mismatched pieces, and have to prematurely spend more hundreds of dollars replacing them.... the Magnum can be readily justified as battery protection money well spent?
You will end up with one later, after pi$$ing money on inadequate solutions...
You will have to "centre-tap" the bank for your other 12 volt needs. Battery health dictates that you get a battery equalizer, Vanner is the big player here. This magical box connects to the ground, 12 volt centre and 24 volt side, and keeps the two 12 volt pieces balanced, as you drain away from the middle. Always connected.
Without a Vanner Equalizer, you will be a battery murderer with a centre tap, even a load as small as the retrofitted car stereo will start the tumble.
As you are doing, choose your own path, and tell the rest of us to sod off!
happy coaching!
buswarrior
A good thing about a small battery bank is the charging time required to bring it back to 100% and they need to be 100% or you loose the amp hrs.
We have a friend with a new Prevost he has 10-8D Lifeline AGM batteries just for the house system it take 8-10 hours of generator time to charge his system
QuoteWe have a friend with a new Prevost he has 10-8D Lifeline AGM batteries just for the house system it take 8-10 hours of generator time to charge his system
That drives me nuts, running a huge generator to float/trickle charge a battery bank. I gave up trying to top mine off with the generator after installing the new house bank. Went to an RV park and plugged in for 24 hours and batteries and I are happy as can be now.
I have much to learn about flooded batteries and charging. I believe multi stage chargers minimize abusing batteries that suffer with primitive charging systems. The key learning is a 3 stage charger will quickly get the battery back to 90% of it's previous SOC not the full capacity of the battery.
For example, a battery with 80% SOC is drawn down to 40% DOD. Start the charger, it will bulk, absorb, then float the battery back to 80%. The remaining 20% DOD will be filled during the float charge cycle which can take many hours.
This is why it is critical to ensure you have your batteries topped off when you start using them as the 3 stage charger will get you back to about 95% SOC rapidly and the float then only needs to trickle that last 5%.
What happens is people don't realize this charging pattern so the battery slowly loses its capacity a few percent at a time unless letting the float cycle run to top off the bank. For those on shore, this is rarely even observed since the charger is always on. As I boondock 95%, there is a whole different set of conditions to deal with.
As in this case, there is a strong tendency to shut off the generator once it floats thinking the bank is fully charged, not knowing each cycle you are down a few %.
Don, think your a little confused: Bulk charging will bring the batteries to 80-90% ; Absorption brings them to full charge ; Float simply maintains the batteries at full charge HTH
Niles, that is precisely the misconception most have, including me until I figured it out. That is why the battery charging cycle is 6-8 hours on golf batteries. Most of the bulk charge happens quickly, most of the time is spent topping off on float.
Here's the math. I have a 24v 210Ah bank (4x 6v 200Ah in series). The charger is set to charge at 40 amps. With a DOD of 50%, it needs to replace 100Ah. At 45 amps it's 2.0 hours to get 90% back in, the remaining time spent on float is taking care of the last 5%-10%
Bus warrior, I loved your post. Really actually resonated with me because we are sometimes in those exact situations needing to plug into a 15 amp outlet and setting off breakers inside a locked building. Totally my life sometimes. I am saving up $$ for that magnum...i absolutely cannot wait to own it. Will really make life easier for us! I'm still lost on the 24/12volt amp hour deal but I'll study up on it using the mighty google. Not trying to "sod off" anyone,...I just like having one bank and was just making that clear...
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Don I respectfully disagree, you have too be careful with the Net there's a lot of bad info out there, here is a white paper from Xantrex, a well respected company - HTH
http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Battery-Chargers/TRUECharge/MS20070308_3-stage-whitepaper.pdf (http://www.xantrex.com/documents/Battery-Chargers/TRUECharge/MS20070308_3-stage-whitepaper.pdf)
Niles,
That same document, except printed by Vanner on their 3/4 stage inverter/chargers, is what had me MISdirected for some time. It is misleading.
Go back and reread it carefully. Nowhere does it state it bring the battery back to 100% SOC in x time, just that it fully charge with enough time on float. And all that stuff about 100% charge is what the battery is capable of accepting during those bulk and absorb phases.
The literature assumes battery had a full charge before being drawn down. Then the phased charging make sense as the battery does return full again.
It does not work the same if you started drawing off a 80% SOC battery. Maybe if you set the bulk voltage to the max, lowest current for absorption, etc. to maximize charging then it would be closer to 100% SOC once it hit float. However, the faster you charge you run the risk of overheating and gassing too much.
I can't add much to what Ewen said but I can reinforce his advice to forget about amp hours and think in watts. You don't lose or gain anything by connecting in series or parallel - a watt is a watt is a watt. Get you a 24 volt inverter and life will be even better than it is already.
Ok good info. Thanks guys
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You guy confuse the heck out of me ? when talking to the Lifeline rep he made mention a battery will only produce so many watts in a 20 hr period according to amp hour rating on the battery what did I miss here :o
luvrbus, you need to read more internet...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
LOL could be since Goggle is not a big part of life
Quote from: luvrbus on August 29, 2017, 07:54:40 PM
You guy confuse the heck out of me ? when talking to the Lifeline rep he made mention a battery will only produce so many watts in a 20 hr period according to amp hour rating on the battery what did I miss here :o
Clifford,
Deep cycle batteries have an Ah hour rating. That number is the number amps that can be drawn from a full battery in twenty hours. When someone mentions the number of watts, a simple calculation is done to the Ah number. Take the battery voltage and multiply by Ah. An example is a 12v 100Ah battery will have 1200 watts (V*A=W). Practically, the battery can never deliver this amount of energy for long as the rating is done until the battery is at 100% DOD. A deep cycle battery should not be drawn down beyond 50% DOD often and certainly no more than 80% DOD except rarely.
Quote from: Scott & Heather on August 29, 2017, 12:10:45 PM
Bus warrior, I loved your post. Really actually resonated with me because we are sometimes in those exact situations needing to plug into a 15 amp outlet and setting off breakers inside a locked building. Totally my life sometimes. I am saving up $$ for that magnum...i absolutely cannot wait to own it. Will really make life easier for us! I'm still lost on the 24/12volt amp hour deal but I'll study up on it using the mighty google. Not trying to "sod off" anyone,...I just like having one bank and was just making that clear...
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if the only 24v load is your starter...u can incorporate a series parallel switch.
someone smarter than i could probably solve for other 24v loads under way...
https://www.google.com/search?q=series+parallel+switch&oq=series+parallel+switch&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=series+parallel+switch&oq=series+parallel+switch&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Fthumbs%2Fimages%2Fg%2F8QQAAOSwHQ9WVLyE%2Fs-l225.jpg&hash=175fda99c17c0fb5fb5fa9c57397b24cfc90f0b5)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/132116273372?chn=ps&dispItem=1 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/132116273372?chn=ps&dispItem=1)
Don if you have a problem comprehending the chart, I will decline responding, take your best toe hold, i'll go with the engineers - FWIW
Now that 24 volt switch is cool. That would be amazing to have and make work...my interest peaketh
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Quote from: Scott & Heather on August 30, 2017, 04:26:41 AM
Now that 24 volt switch is cool. That would be amazing to have and make work...my interest peaketh
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Mack trucks used that switch back in the 60's they can be a real PITA
Do you like staying married?
Don't screw around in an area such as this, where it is all new and exciting, and there are many, many sharks wanting to take your money, and peeps with little clue, but just as emphatic as the ones who know.
Supply of power needs to be invisible, consistent, understandable, and not require the sacrifice of animals or small children to the Gods...
It also needs to be cost effective.
"Unique" means no support, nobody understands what you've done, and you might not either?
SHE is only going to put up with our "man shyte" for so long, and we fellows aren't too good at receiving the signal that SHE is pissed off.
Unreliable power, having to go through any more steps than plug in and throw a switch, YOU ARE ON BORROWED TIME.
Find another outlet for your creativity and new learning, this topic has a ton of electrical engineering theory, then there's real world experience that keeps a lot of that theory in text books, and not in our coaches...
Sometimes, on some topics, the herd wears a path for a reason?
24 volt system, centre-tap with equalizer for small 12 volt needs, Magnum 4024, maybe toss in some solar to keep generator run time down for battery re-charge.
And move on, with no need to re-visit a cobbled, unreliable, no support, on your own, power system, that you will be enjoying in the dark, cold and ALONE.
Don't believe me? Call your partner over and have them read this.
They want reliable, simple like at home power, and don't like looking at your butt crack while you scurry around into all the bays fooling with things.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote24 volt system, centre-tap with equalizer for small 12 volt needs, Magnum 4024, maybe toss in some solar to keep generator run time down for battery re-charge.
Hey, that's my plan. :) Except older Vanner charger/inverter, solar coming, 8Kw generator for backup/topping off banks.
Quote from: luvrbus on August 30, 2017, 04:37:37 AM
Mack trucks used that switch back in the 60's they can be a real PITA
only if you let someone ( a mechanic and i use that word loosely here and in reality )who doesn't understand them within 100 ft of your rig...
I always have trouble with 3 stage parallel switch they have to many relays built in that go bad
This thread has gotten funny.
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Quote from: Scott & Heather on August 30, 2017, 01:01:52 PMThis thread has gotten funny.
After two pages, they all do.
While I agree with Bus Warrior completely I often wonder what it is that makes a bunch of guys believe they are able to reinvent the wheel. I know us guys like dials and gauges and knobs and switches and we think it is a sign of weakness to have an electrical system that is easy to operate and understand. But for a long time now professional conversions required zero effort to have power in the form of 12VDC, 24VDC, and 120VAC where we needed it, when we needed it, without any action required. The beneficiary of those professional systems was my wife. It did not matter if we were plugged in, if the generator was running, or if we were driving or parked. All she cared about is could she make coffee without monkeying with a gazillion switches or look at a dozen dials. She knows the refrigerator is always refrigerating. If she want light to read, she just turns it on.
Repeat after me: Chassis batteries are for starting, house batteries are for the house. Neither should require any thinking.
But then again I know I am wasting bandwidth because the wheel is about to be reinvented.
i suppose if you have 24v loads 12v loads and AC loads... separate DC sources might be easier...but if they can put nuclear power in a submarine and operate anything they want.... a single source DC system on a bus ought to be grade school easy...
mine has served me well since ever.
but. i don't ask batteries to power AC or DC loads that it isn't capable of....
BESIDES...who would leave their wife to turn knobs and scan dials anyways...
anyone want a sandwich ?
;)
Jon people that don't think for themselves and try to learn and come up with new ways never made any progress in the world. I'm not trying to reinvent any wheel. And i don't drink the kool aid that says it's some sort of stupid sin to have a combined battery bank. I have a combined black grey tank and have in both buses and in 7-8 years of fulltiming all over the US I have found it's an awesome system...yet 7 years ago everyone told me it was a bad idea to "reinvent the wheel". I am
Learning and willing to learn but also make my own final decisions....because I'm not a sheep or a lemming. Do it your way. I don't judge others for how they do things....
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Mack wasn't the only mfr with that hare brained 24/12 switch. John Deere did it too - I think it was the "20" series tractors from the late 60's BICBW. It didn't last long and wasn't missed when it disappeared from their offerings.
Why on earth did we settle on 12 volts for automotive systems anyway? Thicker cables...
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Quote from: Scott & Heather on August 30, 2017, 07:50:34 PM
Why on earth did we settle on 12 volts for automotive systems anyway? Thicker cables...
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Beats the old 6-8v systems but you probably never saw a 6v system that all we had when I was a kid it was amazing when the 1955 Chevys came with the 12 v system they actuality started hot or cold ;D
Scott,
You did the research, figured out what works best for you, and made decisions to effect the best configuration for your bus. Great! Don't worry about the nit-picking from some. One size doesn't fit all. The one critical decision I'll bark from a soapbox is using true deep cycle batteries for house use. :)
I wouldn't call it nit-picking Jon just made his case, Scott will figure it out in the long term a battery just has so many cycles built it's life span and the dual purpose batteries have a short life span than is why they have a lousy warranty IMO
Not nit picking but trying to pass along experience. Our first coach had two sets of batteries, start and deep cycle for the house and we got good life out of them because both sets were used as intended. As simple as that coach was if we wanted to light an incandescent 120V light in the living room or watch TV we had to turn a big black knob to select the source of 120V electric. The source could either be an inverter, generator, shore power or "off".
Despite having it for 15 years my wife never could get past the frustration of having to remember to turn the big black knob to the correct source just to turn on a lamp or watch TV. She not only never understood why some of the 12VDC lights would always work and the table lamp did not, she did not care. It wasn't her job. To her our coach was a recreation vehicle, and the simpler her life could be the happier she was.
When we got the next coach with inverters I never turned off, and she realized she never again had to turn knobs or switches to do anything, and that she had power in the outlets, she could watch TV or make coffee without thinking about if she had the switch in the right position she was a happy camper.
And I was happy because she was happy. Neither of us considers our coach an adventure so hats off to those who are willing to experiment, to tolerate some sacrifice, and to not get terribly flustered with failures or problems. Our coach is our second home and we don't want to have to worry about anything when we leave on a trip. I don't ever want to make a repair while on the road. I go so far as to throw away perfectly good parts because I replaced them before they reached their end of life, and that includes batteries, air bags, brake chambers, tires, etc. My coach is not a laboratory or an experiment. And I can assure everyone that as we age our tolerance for things we accept when younger gets pretty thin.
I honestly am in love with the concept of having that hybrid 4024 magnum... the tech inside that box allows us to really harness any amount of incoming power from any source to provide power to our coach and I know I would benefit greatly from that. My wife is largely sheltered from any drama with the coach as I always have the systems working whether parked or on the road. Most of the time we can't hardly tell whether we are on the pole connected to sewer/water or not because my twin generators are so incredibly quiet, you don't know they are running from inside the coach. The power from them has a cleaner wave form than the grid power so you don't even get a flicker when on genset. My water pump currently is a house jet pump so it delivers 60psi of water pressure so we typically have high pressure while using the pump on the road. 150 gallon holding tanks and really we can take nice long hot showers, do laundry, cook pizza in our oven and run both roof airs to keep comfy while on the road. I fill the generators with fuel so again she's largely insulated from any drama or hardship. We only have 120v system in the coach. All she ever has to do is pull the transfer switch in our master bath from pole to generator power...and someday that will be automatic. But i admit if something ever happened to me, she would get it done but would probably not enjoy it very much. I'm out in the rain and snow and darkness filling those generators once every day. The worst part about having gas gensets
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It's all a learning curve people learn by mistakes made ,I wondered why you bought 2 Honda gas generators when you could have bought a good used diesel for about the same money. LOL I made a huge mistake when I bought the Attwood AC unit those are worthless in the AZ heat so now I know
Quote from: Scott & Heather on August 30, 2017, 07:50:34 PM
Why on earth did we settle on 12 volts for automotive systems anyway? Thicker cables...
Excellent question. And the answer, as Clifford has already pointed out, is that 6 volt systems were even worse. I once read about a move to 48 volt automotive systems which seemed to me to make a lot of sense. Absolutely stick to the 24 volt system. And don't get me started on household electric. North America is seriously behind the rest of the world there. More volts is better because its still all about the watts and more volts means less amps for the same watts.
Quote from: Scott & Heather on August 31, 2017, 05:36:54 AM
I'm out in the rain and snow and darkness filling those generators once every day. The worst part about having gas gensets
Do you already have propane in the bus? If so, why not convert the generators to propane? Then you won't need to be always refilling them. That was the best thing I did to my little emergencies-only generator.
John
Quote from: bobofthenorth on August 31, 2017, 08:03:28 AM
Excellent question. And the answer, as Clifford has already pointed out, is that 6 volt systems were even worse. I once read about a move to 48 volt automotive systems which seemed to me to make a lot of sense. Absolutely stick to the 24 volt system. And don't get me started on household electric. North America is seriously behind the rest of the world there. More volts is better because its still all about the watts and more volts means less amps for the same watts.
means zip when you are paying for them.. 440 volt watts cost the same as 110v watts....
Hey clifford if you decide to replace the atwood let me know i will buy it from you when i get home in october. I plan on buying one anyway so just as well buy it from you if it would help you out.
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Ps. I have a coleman mach 13.5 with heat strip i will be replaacing, still works good. If interested maybe we can work that into the deal.
Batteries to AC - what the heck. Just curious what the problem is with the Atwood AC units, not enough BTU, quality, noise..??
Cliff, I was on the side of the road in winter in my old bus which had no heat at all. So I needed some electric heaters and generators asap and was literally a short bit from Honda small engine dealer. The gens were on Sale, I had just had a major failure of my Atwood furnace which filled the coach with soot and set off my CO alarm with my wife and baby inside during the night. So in the panic moment I bought the first safe and quiet power I could get my hands on. They've been amazing. Literally the only bummer so far has been filling them with gas daily. I'll use the daylights out of them and then upgrade to a little diesel genny when I have time to build a proper cooled quiet box for it too. As for converting them to LP, I've thought about it but I have also read that the hotter head temps that result can shorten their lifespan. There's some interesting experiments people have done with my gennies.
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Quote from: thomasinnv on August 31, 2017, 11:09:17 AM
Hey clifford if you decide to replace the atwood let me know i will buy it from you when i get home in october. I plan on buying one anyway so just as well buy it from you if it would help you out.
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Ps. I have a coleman mach 13.5 with heat strip i will be replaacing, still works good. If interested maybe we can work that into the deal.
It is going to be replaced I can tell you for sure,lol Gary Hatt the chief in command here found out also his 2 Atwoods didn't work in a 106 degrees but his shut down mine will still blow hot air but who needs hot air when it a 106
That is odd clifford i was in kentucky earlier this summer it was 108 and over 95 percent humid for a few days and it kept on ticking
Earlier this week it was 100 for a few days, and just the one Atwood running kept it down to 80. Maybe it has to do with insulation, I don't know. Maybe you got a faulty unit? Or maybe I just got an exceptionally good one? Now I'm not so sure I want to take a chance on another one. I will have to think about that
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Derrick is yours a heat pump model both Gary's and mine are ?
Yes it is the 15k heat pump non ducted 15026. Scott is yours the same model?
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I have the Atwood air command 15kw's and I have used them successfully in temps up to 107°F. I also get heat from them well below freezing. I have posted photos of my temp gun on them blowing 90 degree air out when it was 0°F outside.
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LOL Gary Hatt and myself have the only 3 that don't work in high temps,must be the AZ and NV heat because it is a dry heat you think ;D.I am not happy with mine
Cliff have you called Atwood? They were super helpful to me when I had questions about wiring mine up. I was in San Antonio this year and we hit triple digits several times while we were there. Granted our units were running non stop but they kept it cool in there.
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