I just had a concrete floor installed in my bus garage.
I had seen some nice work he has done, so I let my guard down. :-[
I would like to share some important things I learned -
- - Make sure the contractor is bonded & insured & registered/ licensed
- - Ask for references from jobs where he made a mistake he had to fix (Also verify they actually did the work claimed)
- - Specify max depth of puddles you will accept in the contract
- - GET IT ALL IN WRITING
I asked for a flat floor with no pitch & was assured it was no problem. What I got was 1 inch in 10 feet slope to the center of the building. Contractor agrees that while it is excessive, he insists it is normal & acceptable acceptable.
He dug his heels in super deep & kept making excuses & threats.
After all this, I determined the contractor who was so easy to work with & gave plenty of assurances he was the best for the job -- is all hat & no horse. I sure can pick 'em. :(
The deal is closed & I hope the drama is done.
I hope someone can benefit from my mistakes.
I know what you're talking about. I've had a couple of basement floors in houses where the drain was the highest point... You really do have to know who to hire.
JC
The cowboys either come with the best prices or the best faked credentials.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Most concrete guys will add a pitch to a floor because a flat floor will puddle water then the owners are unhappy thinking a flat floor shouldn't have puddles.1 inch in 10 ft shouldn't be that noticeable.You ask for a flat floor he should have poured it flat even if he didn't want to and explained to you that it was going to puddle
Quote from: luvrbus on August 08, 2017, 12:51:39 PM
Most concrete guys will add a pitch to a floor because a flat floor will puddle water then the owners are unhappy thinking a flat floor shouldn't have puddles.1 inch in 10 ft shouldn't be that noticeable.You ask for a flat floor he should have poured it flat even if he didn't want to and explained to you that it was going to puddle
I agree with all that. And that is what he said he would do - a little high in the middle.
I installed a perimeter drain, so is it reasonable to slope the floor to the center, away from the drain?
I wouldn't have fussed about the slope if it had been towards the edge.
He claimed to have his own crew, but the guys that showed up to help with the pour had never worked together. And, they didn't put in any grade stakes until after about 4 yards had been poured - then they were in a rush. I believe they set the grade stakes too low. no good way to check when a cement truck is in the way . . . . .
I have dealt with a lot of concrete contractors over the years and my general impression is that they're all haywire. Even the good ones will f*** up if you don't watch them like a hawk. And concrete finishers are a completely whacko subset of the general haywire group. Too much gas fumes off wore out power trowels is my theory.
The problem with concrete is once its done its done. If a stick builder screws up it may be a horrendous task but it can usually be fixed. Hell even when I put a 16 foot hole and bought an 18 foot door I was able to fix it so nobody has ever noticed until I point it out. But concrete is another matter. When I did my current shop I wanted it in one continuous pour but let myself be talked into 3 separate lifts plus the apron. Now when it rains I get water running in off the apron about 6 feet and when I wash there's two ridges plus the doorway to wash past. I'd be happy if I only had one puddle.
If your slab in depressed in the center, If it were mine (& it wouldn't be because I do my own concrete work just like all my own bus work) I would core a hole at the lowest point in the depression so that standing water can drain into the ground there. Too bad for your misfortune., there are just too many people out there that don't give t a flying flip. In this world we live in ASSUME NOTHING!
Quote from: kyle4501 on August 08, 2017, 11:06:28 AM... I hope someone can benefit from my mistakes.
Sorry for all that mess in your plans, Kyle. I kinda lucked out -- a guy that I went to high school with at home worked in his dads concrete (back then his dad had big concrete mixing tower and his own redi-mix trucks) and earthmoving business. When I got ready to do my garage floor, he was just in the process of moving and passing the business on to his sons. Esp. one son was on a summer break from college where he was studying civil engineering. My friend said "if you'll give us some slack in the timing" (and hey I was in no hurry) "and let me get Jody involved in this, we'll do it right for you at a good price". I do believe that i got it for very little over his cost, it was done well because he was checking Jody like a hawk, and it didn't hurt me at all to have it done in four weeks versus two.
Just lucky ... (for a change).
With the laser technology of today there is no excuse for screwing concrete up.I hate to say it when a concrete contractor drives up in a $60,000.00 pickup with $1500.00 sunglasses named John Doe and starts his BS with me in Scottsdale
I start looking for Jose, Javier or Jesus with 10 family members in a pickup they get done. They never complain that I won't let them use a jitter bug to push the rocks down to make it a easy finish and price is about the same with less BS. I told them rip a handicap ramp out and redo it no problem they just done it
Friggn concrete is getting expensive since Mexico,England,Germany and Ireland control all the cement plants and most redi mix plants here, then the EPA wants fly ash gone by doing away with coal fired power plants
As a Retired Building Contractor in California I had many Concrete jobs done for me as well as doing a bunch myself its all in the screeding. Some of the problems in any job is the first words out of peoples mouth is," So what is it going to cost me to do this job" even before the job is presented other than I need a bid. Or they don't get it in writing. The contractor doesn't present a build sheet. ( sheet with every sub named, license number etc. and all the materials to be used on that sheet.
Most just want to save or expect you will give them a deal. I used to tell them I am in business to make a living not to give handouts. I did give discounts if i reasonably felt it was needed and often over priced it by my mistake and took it off at the end as I told them I would.
If that job was in writing the way you wanted it and you had their license number, bond number and at least 3 jobs done and able to go look at it and talk to the people with proof that it was really their job Then at that point if they screwed up I would have told them they have "X" amount of days to tear out that concrete and re-pour it to your satisfaction at their cost and give them reasonable time to do so.
If that doesn't happen then you have the right to go to the Contractors state License board if your state has one and file a complaint or an action against said contractor.
Yep also hired Jose" and his family and never had the problem and always gave them a tip.
If you can prove it in California that they do not have a contractors License in California or Arizona and they are stating they are one then the CCLB will arrest that person for acting in the capacity of a Contractor without a license.
HTH Dave
FYI
It is noticeable to me.
Hopefully, I'll be able to resolve the drainage issue & manage a way to have the coach sit evenly when aired down
Quote from: luvrbus on August 08, 2017, 05:30:26 PM
With the laser technology of today there is no excuse for screwing concrete up.I hate to say it when a concrete contractor drives up in a $60,000.00 pickup with $1500.00 sunglasses named John Doe and starts his BS with me in Scottsdale
I start looking for Jose, Javier or Jesus with 10 family members in a pickup they get done. They never complain that I won't let them use a jitter bug to push the rocks down to make it a easy finish and price is about the same with less BS. I told them rip a handicap ramp out and redo it no problem they just done it
Friggn concrete is getting expensive since Mexico,England,Germany and Ireland control all the cement plants and most redi mix plants here, then the EPA wants fly ash gone by doing away with coal fired power plants
This! Just had a 50' x 60' bus barn poured. Perfect. Used lasers to set board foundation for pour. Paid $6. 50 per foot for 3500psi concrete and 6" deep. Spend a little money and hire a lawyer and sue the turd! Take his truck and sunglasses.
Quote from: kyle4501 on August 08, 2017, 05:36:13 PM
FYI
Did he pour that in stages?? Should have been your first clue.
Sorry about your concrete woes. Many years ago I hired a contractor to remove and replace my drive and entry cement with colored stamped concrete. The finishing guys were fine but the truck driver got lost and went to a South address rather than my North address. Colored mud kicks off faster than non colored and the result of the delivery error was that by the time the mud was on the ground it was too hard to work with the stamps. I immediately set the crew to work with pics and shovels while the mud was fresh and had the whole mess removed. I lived with a dirt drive and entry for a month while I fought the concrete company. They finally capitulated and replaced the bad batch of mud--I did eat the labor for the first delivery though. Thirty odd years later I am still pleased with the look of my drive and I know that had I just let it go I would still be kicking myself. Kyle, if you really are stuck with the work I think the suggestion of drilling a drain hole in the low spot makes sense. Jack
Dave5cs - good points, I added some of them to the original post.
Cliff, I used a laser to set the perimeter forms - they are within 1/16"
Since I usually do everything myself, I don't have much experience with contractors.
Was done in a single pour
Problem with the drain hole is I have done a lot to eliminate water from under the slab. I think I can saw a slot with the bottom sloping to the side drain & just squeegie the water out if there is a puddle
Quote from: muldoonman on August 08, 2017, 05:40:08 PM
This! Just had a 50' x 60' bus barn poured. Perfect. Used lasers to set board foundation for pour. Paid $6. 50 per foot for 3500psi concrete and 6" deep. Spend a little money and hire a lawyer and sue the turd! Take his truck and sunglasses.
You can't get anything out of a naked man's pockets - his truck ain't hitting on much and, as I found out after the fact, his tools are all borrowed.
I didn't get the correct things in writing - therefore I have to accept some responsibility. At least I don't have to deal with lawyers. ;D Always been cheaper for me to leave them out. . .
You don't really want water getting under your slab and reaching the base by coring the slab,you seal (chauk) concrete to prevent that
Be careful about draining water under the slab. Concrete is only as good as the base it is poured on. You don't want to get the base wet.
Wayne
flat floor .. ya right !
the last house I built I told my " floor guy " I wanted a 2 " drop to each floor drain in the garage I park the cars so I could wash them inside in the winter ( some of you guys do not know this .. snow and cold crap .. )
he said I was nuts ! that is to much . but it is the only floor in all the years of building that ALL THE WATER goes to the drain that gets on the floor .
best decision I ever made as all the other floors I have had installed the water has to go over the high spots in the floor to get to the drain and only happens if I use a push broom to due that
we used to use a por rock floor capping product to level out the floor in the old days
dave
A "failsafe" way to level a slab as shown in the attached photo of our carport we (personally) poured last Friday is to set all the forms to your liking (I use a laser) in this case there is a 1" slope. Then using a vibrating screed across the top of the forms - it is what it is... There are mixed guidelines for moisture under slabs. Up north may be voodoo for frost heave. The photo looks to be "inside a building" but never the less - could cause problems. Here in Florida, no frost heave & plenty moisture everywhere. By the way the reinforcement in the slab in the photo is #5 rebar at 2' O.C. both directions @ 4" thick. The bus barn is 16" O.C. both ways with diagonal bars at corners @ 6" thick. 6" x 6" "roadmesh" or reinforcing wire is useless as a "good" reinforcement except for if the slab is ever demolished it helps in pulling out bigger pieces! The addition of "fibermesh" - "helps" but in itself is useless. Like most of our bus work - if you want it done right, doing it yourself or someone you can trust, ASSUME NOTHING.
I'm curious if a self-leveling pour of concrete on top would work, or if it would be too thin and fragile at the edges, or not bond to the existing? I've seen that used to level in basements.
It works great & is done all too often. Use bonding agent and the proper mix that will "feather" to nothing. A thin set may be required for edges but pay attention to "max." Thickness. Just read the label - there are products for that. Keep in mind that the built up section won't take a beating like the solid slab...
Quote from: bevans6 on August 10, 2017, 04:34:05 AM
I'm curious if a self-leveling pour of concrete on top would work, or if it would be too thin and fragile at the edges, or not bond to the existing? I've seen that used to level in basements.
I have had mixed reviews about that - especially when you let them know you are parking a diesel pusher on it. Then there is the price - at least as much as the original pour. . . . :'(
I'm going to cut the floor to put in a small drain & see how that reduces the pond dry time (It hasn't dried yet).
I'll shim up where the coach tires are so it will be level.
I'll get one of those heavy duty mats that are for wet areas & then decide what next.
Quote from: dtcerrato on August 10, 2017, 12:43:16 AM
Like most of our bus work - if you want it done right, doing it yourself or someone you can trust, ASSUME NOTHING.
AMEN
Dan you would of loved pouring Concrete with us in Colorado Springs. 8% CC and all hot water in, 5 bag mix. then before leaving had to cover with 10 thick insulation blankets 25 feet wide up to 50 feet long pinned to the ground with a heater with fan running all night at an opening in the blanket. If you didn't and it dropped to -10 or less the water would crystallize and the slab would be toast and you would have to tear it out. Most days if it was commercial we would come back in two days and use a seated whirlybird to finish the top smooth. Glad I don't live up there anymore. LOL
Hi All, just finished putting CHAT, small gravel, I created a driveway on the side yard, where the bus will sit behind the fence in the back yard. I've seen this used in horse arenas and unpaved lots. Landscaper compact/pounded it down and watering it to compact it further. Next is putting a gate in the wall and moving some large pretty cacti to where the lady wants them, then can walk out to the back yard to work on the bus whenever I can, lvmci...
Hey Tom,
take it from someone who knows. Get elbow protectors and knee pads as well as rubber mats to put under bus when you need to be under there. We have small gravel in the ranch yard and it hurts this old man crawling around under there. I put down a couple of pieces of plywood with a roll out rubber pad on top of it. LOL ;D
I'm spoiled with a pit, by the way that's a great way to fix the depression in your slab and its the perfect area for a pit! :-).
Yea Dave we poured big in Michigan winters & yes lost a couple to severe cold, concrete cures like Styrofoam if it freezes before cure.
We've used all the trick ingredients like hot water, chloride, accelaguard, hay, straw, heated blankets, etc. The bridges were a real bear to insulate...
Quote from: dtcerrato on August 11, 2017, 05:56:44 PM
We've used all the trick ingredients like hot water, chloride, accelaguard, hay, straw, heated blankets, etc.
What no sugar?
;D BK ;D
Thanks Dave, good idea! Spent the day at G&R bus shop, went in to replace an air tank drain pull, air dryer was bad, they are knowledgeable and more then fair, any one needing repairs, coming thru LV, I would recommend Gilbert and families shop, behind the Palms hotel, lvmci...P.S. $50 each for DOT right angle brass fitting!
Just a thought but... cut the concrete and lay a real drain line to the center. Then fill in where you laid the drain line.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote from: Zephod on August 11, 2017, 06:43:01 PM
Just a thought but... cut the concrete and lay a real drain line to the center. Then fill in where you laid the drain line.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Short of a total tear out & re-pour, that is my only option, but it won't be a drain - more like a spillway. . . .
Pisses me off that the dumbass didn't slope it to the perimeter drain I had already installed.
Pisses me off worse that I didn't see thru his con - I really hope others can avoid making the same mistake I did.
Ask to see his insurance, license, bond, recent customers - especially the ones where he had to fix a major mistake.
Just curious, I take it you were not present during the pour and leveling? Seems like that would be a take away lesson in the future, don't trust the num nuts
I was there & I did see that it was low in the middle. I pointed it out to them & they said it just looked that way, it would finish out perfect.
There is only so so much you can do after the fact . . . . Basically, I was conned. I wanted to help a small business. No good deed goes unpunished.
That is why I posted - It doesn't matter how good they talk - get YOUR specifications in writing & check references.
If they are a real & competent company, they shouldn't need a deposit either.
Most small concrete contractors do need a deposit or a joint check to pay the reddi mix co in advance,reddi mix plants don't give credit easy they want their money, nothing wrong with it as long as you watch and be sure he paid the plant,I choose the joint check myself
Here in AZ if the guy has a credit account the concrete has a pre- lien when delivered other states have the same law.
I know one time a contractor poured a 225,000 sf pad for me that was pre-lien I flipped out because I never heard of that before all I could think of was what the hell I have to pay for 3800 cy of concrete lol I was sure glad that sub contractor paid his bills.
Sorry about the out come Kyle maybe you can do a floor grate they are not pretty but it works a 2,3 or 4 inch wide wouldn't look to bad
Yep California Pre-liens all contracted work and when the bill is paid the PL is released in writing. But you have to file it 30 days before the work starts or it holds no water in court. Then after the job is paid you file a lien release to get the check. If the paying party contests the job after you release the lien and decides not to pay until you go to court you can be stuck holding the bag until a judge decides the outcome. Not often but it has happened.
I built a commercial building 10,000 sq . feet in 2000 and my floor guy had the floor TURN to fast ( dry ) and it ended up like a floor of rolling hills . maybe 1/2 " up and down all over the floor other then near the floor drain so if water was with in 10 feet from it it would drain after that you have to use a push broom to get the water to go to the drain . as it was my buddy that built the building and did the floor no big deal . the only thing we have done is paint the floor and it has been no real problem over the years and there has been lots of water on it over the years
not the end of the world
the next floor he did for me I made the drains lower so the water HAD to go to them
dave
About the deposit, If they can't afford to prepay the concrete for a small job, how can they afford to make it right when they screw up?
I'm just disappointed that the lengthy discussions didn't mean anything & his assurances that he would make it good mean nothing after the fact.
I spent the day yesterday cutting in a drain. I didn't want to cut all the way thru the slab, so I cut a trough 3" deep at the edge & gave it a slight slope up to the puddle - will put a 1-1/4 pvc pipe to drain the puddle. I'll fill it in so I get the smooth floor I wanted & have only a 4" diameter drain grate in the middle of the lowest spot. If that fails, I still have other options.
That actually sounds like a good option, I prefer a center drain if possible. My big building is built on a floating slab, in the spring the back right corner heaves up 2" (you can see under the frame wall) and the floor is 2" deep with run-off. The ground slopes away just fine - the snow freezes and the water just runs over it to the wall, down the wall and into the building. I have no clue how to fix it, the right way to do it would have been to pour a 2 foot high stub wall and build the frame walls on that.
Quote from: kyle4501 on August 13, 2017, 09:41:35 AM
About the deposit, If they can't afford to prepay the concrete for a small job, how can they afford to make it right when they screw up?
Simple they don't plan on making it right 2 sure things about concrete it gets hard and cracks
Quote from: luvrbus on August 13, 2017, 12:23:48 PM
Simple they don't plan on making it right
Exactly.
The companies that didn't require a deposit were on the high side which put them beyond my reach - or so I thought at the time.
Brian can you put in a french drain. Trench filled with grave and a perferated drain pipe to take the water somewhere else other than your shop.
Got the spillway installed. I tested it last night. It isn't a fast drain, but 1-1/4" pipe running 12 feet at a total drop of 1/4", I didn't expect it to. . . .
The water moves slow enough that the dirt doesn't make it in the drain, which I'm good with as it is less likely to clog the drain if it isn't in there. ;D
I can now use a hose to push the dirt out the door & the water left behind finds its way to the drain. 24 hours later, the floor is dry.
Not what I was expecting, but I'll try it out for a while to see if any other issues show up.
I am poring the floor for the bus barn next week, hopefully it turns out better than yours has (no I am not trying to rub salt). If it goes crap though, I can only blame myself as I am the one doing it :-\.
Ryan
Ryan,
I'm sure you know this, but screed boards are a huge help!
I hope you have great results with no unpleasant surprises ;D
Yep set your screed fence down the middle with the bottom of the staked 2x4 on edge where you want the top of concrete to be. Then take a 2x4 the length of the first area about 10 feet or less turn your screed on edge and nail or screw a stake on the top edge of it sticking out 6 inches or so. Now the stake will follow along your screed fence and the bottom of the screed will move the mud along at the proper height. If you drag it slowly and then go back and kind of tap it, it will level out unless you have a concrete vibrator ( you can rent them) or tap the forms as you move along with your hammer. Tap not pound and on the side not the top of the form. Then as it starts setting up use a Bull float with a long handle and when the water starts rising which it will use a Fresno to take off some of the water and take out the ridges. Let setup just enough that it can be troweled by hand from there with a steel trowel. If you have one with the rounded corners like a pool trowel they work better. HTH ;D
Dave5Cs
We usually use a power screed and ride on finisher to fantastic results, but you never know what might go wrong till you pour. Municipal inspection is today and pouring tomorrow. Pics to follow.
Ryan.
So the floor got poured and it came out great. we managed to put a 1 inch slope over 12 feet to the two floor drains. It rained a little, not much since then and water goes from all corners to the drains nicely. I will post some pics once i can get them resized. In the meantime we have been busy building the arches for the steel building that is going on top of the pad and let me say it sucks putting together galvanized steel panels in the beating sun with no wind. I feel like a solar panel! Still need to lift all the arches into place and then finish the new driveway, then I can park the bus inside finally.
Hopefully pics to follow.
Ryan.
Sorry to hijack your post. I will start a new one once I can figure out this picture thing.
Ryan.
I hope this works.
Ryan
Yahoo it worked.
Ryan.
Quote from: MB LeMirage on September 11, 2017, 11:03:41 AM
Sorry to hijack your post. I will start a new one once I can figure out this picture thing.
Ryan.
I don't see it as hijacking - I see it as enhancing & adding great information!
Great job! Your building is going to be stout!
Glad to hear that concrete floors can be sloped in the desired direction. ;)
Ryan I used to do it Professionally too. And yes Power screeds and whirleybird are nice to have but I don't think your average home owner is going to rent or buy them at their cost. I was trying to give an easy lessen on how to do it simply and at a cheaper cost was all. :D Glad yours turned out well.
Dave5Cs
I can see one thing I would be scared of.
little kids with their hands on their hips looking real darn Mad if they have to move THEIR fort and swing.
by gosh I would be gone that day :D ;D :D ;D
Floyd
ps: that mad should last about a gallon of ice cream, to chill out
Thanks Dave for your advice & help on pouring the driveway ramp to the garage in Flagstaff, tom...
;D Tom looked like it came out nice.
As for renting the equipment it only cost $250 for the day and when you are already spending dough on a floor, that does'nt break the bank. We have hand screeded and troweled many a time in the past and it is never fun.
The kids you say! I had to cut a deal with them to move the playhouse and swings down by the lake front. If not there was surely a revolt in the plans. Now that they are all school age, I can let them down by the water more often, though still supervised. Kids that grow up around water seem to inherently understand the danger. Their land lubber friends, not so much.
Ryan.