"Last week I replaced my start batteries (2 8D monsters) for two Group 31 start batteries. They fire up the motor really fine when the house and start batteries are connected via a switch in the battery compartment. When the motor starts on its own start batteries, it kicks but I concur with Clifford that having 4 Group 31 offers a lot more CCA to kick the motor over. I'm going to keep things as is for now as it works fine having the house back up the starts."If it is wired correctly you do not need house batteries at all. It is not easy being frustrated beyond belief. I would pull my hair out, but I don't seem to have any to spare. I will buy the beer if all of the free advice he gets is to replace those 8D batteries with two more 8Ds or 4 group 31.
Instead there will be people who will say the 2 group 31 are all you need, some will say you need 4 and some will give him a round of applause for tying the house to the start batteries.
The house is not backing up the starts. The house has become the starts and I will buy you two beers when at some point this guy ends up with 15 year old batteries for his house and chassis and wonders why his bus won't start or he is stuck in the back of the lot in Tucumcari.
After reading the thread about the guy who thought cold temps made his tires lose pressure I am further convinced that trying to post valid information on BCM and BNO is the equivalent of trying to cross breed a goat with a fifty-year old bus owner ... it just produces a weed eater that won't work.
Two things leaped out at me.
Not a single soul mentioned how if those tires had been driven on with low pressure they are junk. Not a single tire manufacturer disagrees with the policy that tires that have been driven at 20% less pressure than what was required based on weight should be removed from service. Driving on low pressure converts a good tire to scrap.
Nobody said that and one guy even said when he had low pressure he just put air back in his tires and he was good to go.
The second thing that got my attention is the Windy guy stating how he thinks valve stem caps are a pain in the a** and that he was OK just screwing a valve cap on a tire if the Schrader valve is leaking.
I should not have high expectations because these are the type of folks that will justify driving on 10 year old tires because they still haven't had a blowout that tore up a brake chamber or body panels.
Now here is MY problem in a nutshell.
I am going to polish my wheels this weekend and I always put a small nut inside the plastic container to break up the material inside. I think this is called "viscosity" but I am not all that sure, as I have not stayed in a Holiday Inn for a long time.
But I was told by the guy down the street who owns the Winnebago that NEVER goes anywhere. When you shake the vessel vigorously it breaks down the material on the inside that is sticking to the walls, and therefore, efficiently improves product flow to the rag. Using this method and huge amounts of elbow-grease, will produce the desired impact on the driving public at large ... and of course ... shiny wheels.
So using a 1/4" or 3/8" nut, which would be better? I have some ball bearings I have been using to shoot the neighbor's cat with, would they work just as well?
Watch those Right-handers. *
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* No actual cats were harmed in the fabrication of this post Dave. Please do not send me any letters.
The guy with the low tire never said he drove on it with low pressure.
"The guy with the low tire never said he drove on it with low pressure."
Okay, I stand corrected, thanks for pointing that out.
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Big rig trucks with sleepers always use 4-31 batteries. And most all are 12v (no 24v starters-unless custom ordered). Now what they do is to have a low volt cut off of the cab lights at 12.2 volts so you can still start the truck. Another truck manufacturer, isolated one 12v battery just for cab lights leaving 3 batts for starting.
I still believe in separate starting and deep cycle batteries. The two are completely different strains on the batteries. I also believe in a jumper solenoid that you can control from the driver's seat to either charge both sets or jump if the starting batteries are low. But-do it your way-that's why we have our buses. Good Luck, TomC
Larger nuts would produce greater flow!
Yes they do! ;D
Quote from: lvmci on August 04, 2017, 07:54:00 AM
Larger nuts would produce greater flow!
But only up to the point that they are too large
I'm now pondering if I am a 1/4 or 3/8 nut ??? I'm always mixed up
@Tom
QuoteI still believe in separate starting and deep cycle batteries. The two are completely different strains on the batteries. I also believe in a jumper solenoid that you can control from the driver's seat to either charge both sets or jump if the starting batteries are low
I have a manual switch for that same thing. I'm fine with leaving the house/start disconnected but that means my house battery bank will not charge via the bus alternator.
And that may be a good thing. I've just replaced the house battery bank and reviewing the inverter/charger calibration. While doing this, it made me reflect on how the bus' alternator regulation is nothing like a 3 stage bulk/absorption/float function offered when charging via the Vanner. In fact, it makes me wonder if charging directly off the alternator does damage (long term) to the house bank since it is not being charged and maintained as recommended.
May be a moot issue for me as my next project is to size a solar panel array for charging the house bank, hoping to eliminate the need for the generator to supply the charge. I'll be OK if I use it for the bulk charging and let the solar do the rest but will see how it goes.
Quote from: niles500 on August 04, 2017, 10:00:37 AM
I'm now pondering if I am a 1/4 or 3/8 nut ??? I'm always mixed up
Easy to measure with a caliper
If the bus alternator has the regulator adjusted appropriately, it won't damage the house batteries. I discussed this with an engineer at US Batteries when I was setting up my house/start combiner system. The alternator puts out a constant voltage but current flow varies with load and battery charge state. It's a constant high current charge that fries batteries. Also, you don't typically drive the bus for days and weeks without stopping. Charging the house batteries at alternator voltage for 4 or 5 hours is actually very good for them. I start the bus first thing in the morning with two gp 31 batteries, and throw the bridge switch after the alternator has turned on and has charged the start batteries for a few minutes. For starts all day, I leave the bridge switch on. At the end of the day, I open it so inverter and house use doesn't draw down the starts. If my starts are low or go bad, I throw the bridge and boost them with the house bank. I had a start battery completely fail on the first day of a trip, I just disconnected the starts with the master switch, threw the bridge switch and ran off the house bank for a few days until I could buy and install new batteries. It's good to design in a lot of flexibility and redundancy.
I call the valve stem cap a dust cap. For me, it's there to keep spiders and crap out of the valve stem. The schrader valve seals the air in, although I admit a good cap will help keep air in just fine. Anecdotally, I just moved my car hauler trailer for the first time in two years, so I checked the air pressure in the tires. All four were exactly where I set them two years ago, within the accuracy of my air gauge. Not what I was expecting, to be honest.
Good to hear from you again, BCO
Quote from: windtrader on August 04, 2017, 11:42:33 AM
@Tom I have a manual switch for that same thing. I'm fine with leaving the house/start disconnected but that means my house battery bank will not charge via the bus alternator.
And that may be a good thing. I've just replaced the house battery bank and reviewing the inverter/charger calibration. While doing this, it made me reflect on how the bus' alternator regulation is nothing like a 3 stage bulk/absorption/float function offered when charging via the Vanner. In fact, it makes me wonder if charging directly off the alternator does damage (long term) to the house bank since it is not being charged and maintained as recommended.
May be a moot issue for me as my next project is to size a solar panel array for charging the house bank, hoping to eliminate the need for the generator to supply the charge. I'll be OK if I use it for the bulk charging and let the solar do the rest but will see how it goes.
There are a lot of points you need to understand based on what you state above.
You can charge both the chassis and house simultaneously automatically by the use of an isolator or a circuit with a solenoid (relay) that opens the circuit when there is no alternator output. Having a manual switch is the same thing and does the same right up until you forget to close the circuit and the house batteries don't get recharged by driving.
Assuming 24 volts, most chassis alternators with a voltage regulator that is adjustable charge at about 27.7 volts which is perfectly fine. even on excessively hot days. It is not the ideal charge like you get from an inverter, but it does keep your house batteries adequately charged. The inverter connected to shore or generator power is the ideal way to charge but not always desired or practical.
What is important is to understand the correct batteries and charging protocol for the application with deep discharge being the type required for the house and start batteries for the chassis. Keep temperatures in mind and don't plan on anything other than flooded lead acid for high temp locations and if gel or AGm are used for the house try to keep temps within a range in which you will be comfortable. Also the type of house batteries will determine the charging protocol the inverters will be set to provide, and learn what the inverter cycle will be and if it is satisfactory for the type of batteries.
27.7 volts is good for a float charge on the LifeLine AGM batteries,LifeLine is telling me to reach 100% of rated amp hours of their deep cycle 8D's the absorption (bulk) charge rate needs to be 28.4v or higher,now I am more confused since paying big bucks for a new Balmar multi stage regulator
I think the redeeming factor relative to alternator charging of Lifeline (or any AGM batteries) is the 27.7 volt typical alternator regulator setting is it is a safe value with respect to temperature variations. At that voltage level even hot temperatures are not going to make it too high.
But no AGM batteries should remain in bulk such as for a day of driving so the lesser value is unlikely to cook them.
Further, at least for motor homes with inverters when shore or generator power is available the batteries are going to receive the correct voltage for a charge and then drop to float which is somewhere around 27.2 (13.6)
What in the world are these peope talking about?
Quote from: bevans6 on August 04, 2017, 12:43:35 PM
Good to hear from you again, BCO
Thanks, it always nice to know that you have been missed. As you are aware, I am not always welcome in some social circles and as I am no longer wanted by the FBI (I have registered as a convicted used bus owner) and they now know where I be, I decided to post something.
For what it is worth, I decided to go with the ball bearings. I did check out the nut size and all that, but the third one was bigger than the other two, so I got on the phone ..... oh well, you know.
No word from the doctor at this time.
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BCO,
That's the first I've heard of a tire being junk if driven on with low pressure, but considering how much(litttle) I know bout heavy duty vehicles like the otr trucks and buses, that is unsurprising. It's also mainly why I am a member here, to learn as much as I can from those with more experience and are more knowledgeable about these vehicles.
A metal cap with a good o-ring is an accepted fix for a leaking schrader on a refrigerant system, but that is probably because of how much more is required to replace the schrader valve in that sort of system. If I didn't have the means on hand to fix a leaky schrader on a tire, and all I had was a metal valve cap, it would serve until I could replace the core.
For your mixing question, use what you've got. It's not really rocket science, throw the small one in and shake it up. If it doesn't seem to work, drop the bigger one in and give it another go. Just make sure whatever you use is clean. I always preferred bb's for keeping metallics mixed in smaller 1 or 2 oz containers. The larger the container, thicker the material or the deeper the solids on the bottom, the bigger the item used to keep it mixed. I would shy away from using a ballbearing in a container with a smaller opening that you would pour from. You run the risk of pouring the ball bearing out, or blocking the opening with the bearing. The second would get more annoying as the container gets emptier.
You get a double whammy on bus tires the valve stems (schrader) will leak and I have never been able to control leaking with a cap. The stem is installed with a nut and 2 thin rubber gaskets that start leaking over time if they are disturbed when checking air pressure air it up and check both.
Someones Disturbed! :o ::) ;D
Quote from: J_E on August 04, 2017, 06:00:28 PM
BCO,
That's the first I've heard of a tire being junk if driven on with low pressure, but considering how much(litttle) I know bout heavy duty vehicles like the otr trucks and buses, that is unsurprising. It's also mainly why I am a member here, to learn as much as I can from those with more experience and are more knowledgeable about these vehicles.
Odds are if you run it low, you will blow it, then it would not be a whole lot of good to anyone ... wouldn't you agree. Kind of like an Ice Berg, nine times out of ten, what is going to get you is well hidden below the surface. But don't take my word for it, research the information, you can find it just about anywhere.
"One of the most common causes of tire failure is under-inflation Tires that are underinflated experience excessive flexing in the sidewalls which causes them to run dangerously hot, especially at highway speeds during hot weather. The buildup of heat can lead to tread separation or a sudden blowout. The underlying cause here may be lack of maintenance (not checking the inflation pressure of the tires regularly) or a slow leak that has allowed the tire to lose air. The main responsibility for preventing this type of failure is squarely on the shoulders of the vehicle owner." http://www.aa1car.com/library/tirefail.htmHave a good weekend.
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I'm so confused, had to read the original post to see what is on topic. Since it was about batteries, here's my daily report.
With the new house and starts, both from different companies and different specs, I completed making the inverter/charger adjustments for the house bank. The alternator is the primary source for charging the start bank.
HOUSE - Interstate GC2, 6v deep cycle 210Ah. Bulk 7.2v/28.8v, Float 6.7v/26.8v
START - Napa GRP31, Model 7237. 12v 950CCA, Bulk 14.6v/29.2v Float 13.4v/26.8v
Since bulk and float voltages are similar between the two banks, my feeling it's fine for the inverter to charge both banks if connected. Charging the start bank with the alternator seems fine.
Charging the house bank with the alternator through the bridged switch seems acceptable too. Even though the voltage regulation is single stage, I'm OK with it connected to the house as most of the time, it should be only floating them since the regulator sends both house and starts the same 26.8 float voltage. If house batteries were often low and should be charged via 3 stage, I'd have to rethink this one.
The optimal values for the house and start bank are not exactly the same but close enough for me to give it a go and watch how they perform.
Based on how the house bank with be drawn and charged (solar panel coming) and via inverter as needed (rather avoid using the genset), there won't be much need to connect both banks. then again, as stated above, based on my expected usage, I'll likely keep them connected for the benefits mentioned earlier.
AGM batteries have a maximum of (12v batteries) 14.3 volt on charging (at 77 degrees)-amps don't matter. Then bulk at 13.3 (resting charge). A normal alternator can do this also. I have never had a problem charging my AGM batteries with the solenoid closed connected to the giant 50DN alternator. Like everything else, you just need to keep an eye on the volt meter. Good Luck, TomC
Ok with 6 -8D's Lifelines at 70% how long would you need to charge the batteries back to 100% capacity at the float charge with a 270 amp 24v alternator ???
Battery makers sell a lot of batteries to people that choose to ignore the charging voltage values.
Each type of battery, lead acid, AGM, Gel has it own charging protocol and some are more sensitive than others to those stated values. Mixing batteries of different ages in a bank of batteries is a definite no-no, and I can only imagine how bad it would be to mix types such as start batteries and deep discharge as Wind seems intent on doing.
Quote from: luvrbus on August 05, 2017, 04:58:20 AM
Ok with 6 -8D's Lifelines at 70% how long would you need to charge the batteries back to 100% capacity at the float charge with a 270 amp 24v alternator ???
I have no clue if only applying a lesser charge would bring a set to 100%, but I think the bus alternator puts an adequate charge into the 8D batteries at the 27.7 volt output to allow them to approach a 100% charge. Then when the inverter has shore or generator power it will provide the 100% charge.
I think the typical alternator with a conventional voltage regulator is set so it doesn't fry the batteries because if you keep applying the 28.4 volts of a bulk charge and never going into float it won't be long before those batteries are ready to pop. Add in hot temps due to outside ambient temps or because they are not located in a cool area of the coach and even 27.7 volts might be too great.
Jon, that is about the same that LifeLine is telling me the chassis alternator will never bring the batteries up to 100% capacity.
So I installed a separate 160 amp 24v alternator with the 4 stage Balmar regulator,the inverters will charge the bank when on shore power or generator power.
Buying 6-8D Lifeline batteries can get into the wallet in a hurry and my luck with AGM batteries has not been that great over the years
Clifford if you turn the clawfoot tub over on top of the batteries it should keep them a lot cooler and then they won't have that problem, Just sayin ;D
Jon,, it's NOT like putting water in a bucket until the bucket runs over.. Batteries have an internal resistance and when charging this resistance INCREASES as the charge increases,, when the two forces balance the battery is full.. An unregulated charger CAN over charge a battery,,and because the battery is RESISTING this overcharge,, the battery gets hot and the damage begins..>>>Dan ( This high resistance in the final phase of charge explains why the last few percent of charge takes so long to achieve 100%)
Quote from: Dave5Cs on August 05, 2017, 06:15:28 AM
Clifford if you turn the clawfoot tub over on top of the batteries it should keep them a lot cooler and then they won't have that problem, Just sayin ;D
Wise @$# I am trying to forget about that tub ;D
Cliff,, you need two tubs,, so you can sit side by side as in the ad.>>>Dan ::)
Quote from: Utahclaimjumper on August 05, 2017, 06:16:02 AM
Jon,, it's NOT like putting water in a bucket until the bucket runs over.. Batteries have an internal resistance and when charging this resistance INCREASES as the charge increases,, when the two forces balance the battery is full.. An unregulated charger CAN over charge a battery,,and because the battery is RESISTING this overcharge,, the battery gets hot and the damage begins..>>>Dan ( This high resistance in the final phase of charge explains why the last few percent of charge takes so long to achieve 100%)
Isn't that what I said? Turn up the regulator to supply bulk charge and then drive all day. When you shut down for the night the batteries will be bulged out like a balloon and will smell like rotten eggs.
EXACTLY!!
Quote from: lvmci on August 04, 2017, 07:54:00 AM
Larger nuts would produce greater flow!
Exactly what I was telling my Psycho Analyst the other day,just sayin. Hey Oakster!!
Keep shaking the can, if you can hear that rattle, it still isn't ready to use.
;)
Where are we going to meet up and drink beverages, BCO?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I float my house bats at 13.2V and they are now going on 8 yrs and still hold at 6.56 to 6.59V when off the pole for a few hours with minimum use. As for using nuts to keep it flowing, I find a good wrist action without the nuts works just as well.... ;D
LifeLine has some good info about the bulk charge and equalizing the charge to bring the batteries to 100% capacity to prevent the lead sulfate from forming crystals,anyone should know a non regulated bulk charge @ 28V + would cook a battery in a few hours
8d AGM's DEKA told me 13.3v.-13.5v
do not exceed. ever.
Xantrex agreed.
so i don't.
Like I said befoe, I am constantly amazed with your candor in all your writings. Thank you for sharing. I hope that by doing so, you've found a measure of peace. Here are a few samples:
I'm so confused, had to read the original post to see what is on topic. Since it was about batteries, here's my daily report.
(Yawn)
Mixing batteries of different ages in a bank of batteries is a definite no-no, and I can only imagine how bad it would be to mix types such as start batteries and deep discharge as Wind seems intent on doing.
Who knows?
Claw Foot tub?
Cliff,, you need two tubs,, so you can sit side by side as in the ad.
What in the world do people, two people of different genders relaxing in a clawfoot tub, have to do with sexual enhancement or male proficiency in the boood-wha? AND WHY FOR THE LOVE OF PETE ... IN A CLAW FOOT BATHTUB.
I could make inquiries at the Sperm Bank, but then again, there is the matter of that restraining order and all .... While we are at it, and because MY bus batteries are FULLY CHARGED and working correctly ... here is my question ... Are there trans gender bus owners in this country, inquiring minds want to know.
(nice blend eh?)
(the batteries) will be bulged out like a balloon and will smell like rotten eggs.
Been there --- done that --- got the T-shirt Jon, but it was pickled pigs feet and devil eggs washed down with Budweiser that did it, not over charging. As a matter of fact, "it has been so long since I got a charge, I forget where you hook up the jumper cables" (If I do discover the exact location I will let you know in my daily report)
EXACTLY!!
Larger nuts would produce greater flow!
HUH?
Exactly what I was telling my Psycho Analyst the other day, just sayin. Hey Oakster!!
EXACTLY?
Where are we going to meet up and drink beverages, BCO?
Geographically speaking, you are very far way away from our domicile. We have folks coming in this month from CA. and next month from AZ and one is stoppin' by on the way home from the Grand Canyon. Come on down, we will throw another can of beans in the fire (you thought I was going to say shrimp on the barbie didn'tya?). When I drink I kind of turn into a whole nother person, and HE really drinks A LOT, so I have to be careful.
Maybe Arcadia in December?
Watch those right handers
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Aye, Arcadia sounds lovely.
I will bring duty free beverages.
happy coaching!
buswarrior