I've been researching both on this site and the internet the best prices for deep cycle AGM 8D batts and just was hoping to get input. TomC loves his lifelines. They are definitely not cheap...are there other sources that anyone has had good performance from that are less $$$ than lifelines?
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If you read the specs good you get more bang for the dollar with the 4D's, Lifelines are good batteries so are the others like Deka, the problem with the LifeLines you pay dearly for the warranty.
You can buy the same battery under the Sun Extender label from Lifeline for less money because you are not paying for the warranty.
People I know are having good luck from the Fullriver brand but I don't have any experiences with Fullriver.The Trojans wet cell 6 volt 105 are a tough act to follow for the bucks
Cost wise, this is what I came up with for battery size. Using 1200amp/hrs Lifeline batteries. For 6v the 6CT 300ah would use 8 batteries at $389.99 ea for a total of $3,119.92. Using the L16T 400hr would use 6 batteries at $579.99 ea for a total of $3,479.94. 12v batteries- 8D 255hr you use 5 for a total of 1,275hr at $639.99ea for a total of $3,199.95. 4D 210hr you use 6 for a total of 1,260hr at $539.99ea for a total of $3,239.94.
I use 2-8D's and hate them-way too heavy at 156lbs ea to handle. I'm leaning towards the 6CT batteries at 90lbs ea. Lifeline are made in the USA-which is why they are more expensive. 5yr warranty, but my first set lasted 7yrs. Many Chinese batteries. Good Luck, TomC
Thanks Cliff. I'll check out those other brands. Thanks Tom. Good calculations to go by. I guess it would indeed be easier to toss around 90lb batts versus 150lb batts for sure.
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DEKA regional distributors can get blems...at significantly reduced costs. IIRC I paid less than $130.00 ea for two AGM 4D's and less than $100 for a AGM grp 31.
I bought a cheap AutoZone GM side terminal (3 year free repl. warranty tho) yesterday for $107.00 :(
Find a DEKA jobber :) and ask. they normally don't stock them but can get in a few days. I get mine in Ft. Myrers, FL
ps find the distributor not a retailer.
Deka is a American made battery so is the Trojan, ::) I don't have good luck with Lifeline AGM in the heat of AZ
First, I do not know nothing.
8D's were in the 4104, so I replaced them with 8D's from NAPA.
Been good me so far. About 4 years. Man they are heavy.
I used a motorcycle repair jack to remove and reinstal them.
Worst part was getting out of the truck and on the ground to get them on the jack.
Taking them out and putting them back in was no problem.
I also removed them, cleaned and painted the battery box area.
Again with the jack no problem.
Napa battery has been good, was not cheap.
Love my Lifeline 4D's ...the golf cart batteries are a real pain to service. Lifelines are clean and trouble free.
Just today, I picked up four Interstate GC2 6v 215Ah deep cycle batteries for the house battery system. The stack of scratch paper full of calculations convey the amount of head scratching done to decide which way to go.
The expensive batteries were beyond what I wanted to spend. Start batteries were out. Marine batteries for the most part are hybrid start/deep cycle. I tried very very hard to make a lithium system work but was more than I wanted to spend.
Finally, the garden variety 6V golf cart batteries offer very good value; that is, deep cycle design (i.e. thicker plates), low cost per watt of storage, and good life (not going more than 50-70% DOD).
Costco has them for $84, $340 for four, very hard to beat to get my energy storage back in the house system. Plus they weigh a whole lot less than the 4D that came out.
Don, How will 4 6volt batteries work for you...that's just 2 banks of 12volt?
Yes, all in series for 24v 210Ah
5040 Wh total capacity
4032 Wh 80% DOD: 650 cycles
2520 Wh 50% DOD 1220 cycles
I got the bus so my daily consumption is not known but estimated to be on the low side as the refrig, stove, oven are LP. LED TV, water pump, lights don't draw much. Also, planning on solar panels to charge batteries during the day, so hoping the stored energy will be enough.
Costco Golf Cart Batteries
Group Size GC2
Interstate Part # 9-GC2-UTL
Costco Item # 850284
Volts 6
RC @ 75A = 105, RC @ 25A 383, 210 Ah @ 20Hr., 175 Ah @ 5Hr
Quote from: windtrader on August 01, 2017, 05:20:00 PMJust today, I picked up four Interstate GC2 6v 215Ah deep cycle batteries for the house battery system. T
....
Costco has them for $84, $340 for four, very hard to beat to get my energy storage back in the house system. Plus they weigh a whole lot less than the 4D that came out.
Nice. Good work.
Ok now
I'm confused. How many do I need? 6v batts...I am using them for start batts.
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Quote from: Scott & Heather on August 01, 2017, 08:15:27 PM
Ok now
I'm confused. How many do I need? 6v batts...I am using them for start batts.
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i think your thread drifted...clear out to sea...
you do not want any combination of 6v batteries for starts... imo.
my post refers to 4D/8D/GRP 31 12v start batteries AGM DEKA.
do they even make 6v AGM START BATTERIES ?
You don't want 6v deep cylce batteries for starting go with 4 group 31 for the convenience or 2-8D's since you are young,me along with the others just presumed you were talking about house batteries sorry about that
You don't stay young for long, and 8D batteries speed up the aging process.
If you can figure out how to fit 4 Group 31 batteries, do your future-self a favour now, and make them fit now.
Group 31 are the batteries of choice for the big trucks. Same as golf cart batteries, competitive, plentiful, lots of suppliers, and prices stay driven low.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Oops, sorry Scott. Yes, thread drifted to house batteries. Last week I replaced my start batteries (2 8D monsters) for two Group 31 start batteries. They fire up the motor really fine when the house and start batteries are connected via a switch in the battery compartment. When the motor starts on its own start batteries, it kicks but I concur with Clifford that having 4 Group 31 offers a lot more CCA to kick the motor over. I'm going to keep things as is for now as it works fine having the house back up the starts.
That's what I have in mine for start (4) group 31's. Thinking about AGM's next time as I have a couple 8D's under coach and those have been trouble free for about 3 years and like the fact that you don't have to check water level in those puppy's. It's a pita to remove hold downs to just check water on my start batteries. ;D
I am 3 years into a set of 6 L-16 fullriver batteries. I have not had any problem with them but I am not hard on batteries, do not boondock a lot. Will see in 3 or four years.
Wayne
He needs to look past a deep cycle battery for starting no matter what brand he chooses,I pay $89.99 for group 31's at my local Batteries and Bulbs and I paid $40.00 for a friggn lawn mower battery at Napa
Quote from: luvrbus on August 02, 2017, 06:30:05 AMHe needs to look past a deep cycle battery for starting no matter what brand he chooses ...
Can't put it any plainer than that. Deep-cycle batts aren't made to be start batteries, won't do the job very well, and will likely be damaged by the stresses of using them for starting. Just don't. You could look for a very good alternative -- if you search really hard, you could probably find an excellent battery for starting your engine -- check for the ones marked "start battery".
Re: the mysteries of battery types and starting the engine...
Some time ago, a few peeps, Sean Welsh was one of them, were pondering just building a coach with a big house bank and calling it a day.
With the size of house bank that some of us carry, it was figured that the start load is not going to do anything harmful, and carrying and maintaining/replacing batteries and associated duplications of charging/combiner equipment, that basically do nothing that the rest of it could readily do, was a cost and complexity that could be avoided.
Yes, you lose redundancy, blah blah blah, the school of thought was, if you end up with dead batteries, it's your own fault and the predicament is part of the punishment for being foolish?
One battery bank, one engine alternator, one solar charge controller, one inverter/charger.
Job done?
Who knows how to alert Sean from his marine pursuits to revisit the coach board for some current thoughts?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I don't recall Sean having just one battery bank ,I seem to recall he had some G27's for the starting of his 8v92, if Scott has the 42 MT starter that is a high amp draw starter like 800 amps for the 24v system
Quote from: luvrbus on August 02, 2017, 09:11:02 AM
I don't recall Sean having just one battery bank ,I seem to recall he had some G27's for the starting of his 8v92, if Scott has the 42 MT starter that is a high amp draw starter like 800 amps for the 24v system
he didn't...
but he later wrote that he should have.
i did, and do.
one battery bank since day one.
my generator has it's own battery
and i have some really nice jumper cables
and coach-net or progressive road service will send a jump start.
i get about 5-6 years out of my batteries.
all of my 110v outlets are sub panel off the inverter/charger
i have no propane
but, i am 12v.
not sure i would do this 24v.
I know nothing about battery design but one of the key differences between start and deep cycle design is the lead plates are thicker in deep cycle batteries. The start batteries use thinner plates to get more CCA.
What is most reported is using start batteries as deep cycle. The lifespan is shortened as the thin plates are not designed for deep cycling.
It seems if you have sufficient capacity (CCA) in the house deep cycle bank, same as the starts, then it doesn't seem there is harm to them, short or long term.
One key factor affecting lifespan of deep cycle batteries is DOD (Depth of Discharge). The deeper you draw them down between recharge the fewer cycles you get. Since start is a very quick event, I don't think DOD would be an issue. That assumes you have plenty to start with.
Guys, several threads on the site about using a single house system that can start your coach. Bob of the north discussed it and several have done it. That's what I want to do.
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Scott, people do it different ways I don't care for the 1 battery bank myself and the problem people never talk about is the AGM batteries require a higher rate of charge than a conventional automotive charging system does.
Without the high dollar regulator the 8D's will never be fully charged unless your are plugged in with a good charger.
I have sit in on several battery manufactures seminars and a few of Dick Wrights seminars,not a 1 recommends the single bank system for a RV . ;D Food for thought your bus being a DDEC ll no way would I go to a single battery bank what can happen will happen with a DDEC and the ATEC so it is a roll of the dice for you
good luck
Perhaps the difference is being a full timer vs weekend/monthly roadwarrior?
Systems under constant supervision.
If the parts don't match, battery type, charge rates, then the whole thing is a waste of time.
If nobody on board has "Battery OCD" then redundancy is required.
And with only one system, maybe more peeps on board might take an interest?
The discussion is a good one to have, so long as peeps know what they are doing, and have the correct equipment set up, there is no need for all these different battery systems and their associated ongoing costs to maintain.
I know peeps who connect the DDEC to the house system for that very voltage issue....
"Traditional thinking" comes from the herd's collective stupidity, defended against?
Buck the trend! save money, be different, be smart?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Keep in mind his DDEC ll is 12v only not like Bill's DDEC IV which is 24v, they give enough problems on a 24v to 12v step dwn system without creating 1 IMO
Good advice for sure. I know it's outside the box, but it seems silly to and I quote "have a $400 set of batteries that only get used a few seconds every couple of months when it could all be part of a house bank"
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if you have just one battery bank for both starting and house loads, how do you know how many amp/hours of deep-cycle battery equates to how many CCA of start battery? Is there a formula to convert between the two? A Group 31 and a golfcart battery each weigh about the same and are about the same size, so would they have equivalent energy storage capacities (bearing in mind the GC is only 6V)? How big does the house bank need to be to provide 2000 CCA and a decent Reserve Capacity?
John
Quote.....seems silly to and I quote "have a $400 set of batteries that only get used a few seconds every couple of months when it could all be part of a house bank"
I'm laughing since this thread came along just recently. I never knew about the single battery bank approach so I just looked at what works today for starts. Put in the two Group 31 and it starts fine. Especially now that I just replaced the house bank and with them connected to the new house bank, it a hybrid in that the house bank backs up the start bank but both still server their primary purposes.
I did swap two Group 31s for the two 8D, and swapped in 6V GC2 deep cycle in for the four 4D house bank. My banker (wife) thanks me, hoping the new configuration will work out. The house battery metal box has plenty of space if I need to double up.
I have two 31's for starting (like Clifford from Bulbs and Batteries) and 2-8D AGM Lifelines. I also have a 300amp solenoid that connects the two sets together for both charging and for emergency starting off the deep cycle. Good Luck, TomC
all in one battery bank ?
I have 4 x g31 's to start the coach and 4 gulf cart 225 batteries for the house and a 400 amp contactor to add house batteries for starting the coach if there is a problem on starting
I do have more space on the slide out dwr that holds the house batteries ( 2 more could be added ) but it would be easy to replace the 4 start batteries with 6 v gulf cart batteries and tie them together . that would give me 8 x 6 volt ,s at 225 amp = 1800 - 50 % ( 12 volt system ) = 900 amps at 12 volt
would that be lots to start the cat ?
thanks dave
Quote from: luvrbus on August 02, 2017, 06:30:05 AM
He needs to look past a deep cycle battery for starting no matter what brand he chooses,I pay $89.99 for group 31's at my local Batteries and Bulbs and I paid $40.00 for a friggn lawn mower battery at Napa
I paid the same for one at O'Riley's ,And 20 dollars for a single can of R-134 .Didn't want to drive across town to a Walmart where they had it for 4.58 a can lol
Even though I've had no problems starting my 892 with just 2 grp 31's, after reading this thread, I'm wondering if I should set up a connection to the house bank also just for starting assistance before I damage my starter. It starts so quick it doesn't seem like it would be a problem, but....
And then again, if it ain't broken, why fix it? ???
If you want to see Sean Welch s Battery Banks. ourodessey.com
he has diagrams on his site even though they are writing about their boat now the bus stuff is still there.
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I never read Sean's blog but if remember he had the batteries inside the coach something the battery manufactures say not to do now,LifeLine completely changed their installation process now after a couple of law suits
I don't think Sean had batteries inside the coach but the Neoplan he had/has had lots of little storage areas and he had batteries in lots of them.
Quote from: Lee Bradley on August 03, 2017, 11:45:33 AM
I don't think Sean had batteries inside the coach but the Neoplan he had/has had lots of little storage areas and he had batteries in lots of them.
I'll call Sean and ask him but I thought he had a couple inside under the bed at one time when Bob Lewis was doing the conversion for him
Nuts, I have to vent.
This thing has grown a life of its own ....
"I don't know a thing about batteries ..... but" That should be a good clue right there about what is coming next.
Personally I believe the green M&M's are much better than the brown ones, so all of you are missing the boat by eating the wrong colors! So here is my somewhat valid concern .... I am wondering if we will EVER find out why this mystery bus
did not start, some four or five pages ago.
Hey Clifford? I was thinking about Sonny today, how he used to laugh about how all these bus guys over-analyze everything out the wahzoo. He used to go down to the truck wrecking yard, buy batteries out of wrecked trucks, and run them five or six years.
For a measly $45.00 each.
My 892T takes a lot of juice, I run FOUR of 'em to start it (that should give you something to think about). All built in the USA by Interstate, it starts just fine most of the time, if it don't I will make a video and post it, that way, someone can tell me how to fix it, and I won't have to do it myself and share it with the rest of you.
Good gawd, if it is done right, you don't need house batteries to start it, or a wrecker to jump it. What you need is basic mechanical skills, a little common sense and a little luck now and then. House batteries --- AGM --- Drip Dry left-handed threads --- 14 million CCA's --- my _____ .
THIS AINT ROCKET SCIENCE FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD.
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http://www.ourodyssey.us/bus-e-house.html (http://www.ourodyssey.us/bus-e-house.html)
My bus came with four group 31 starting batteries from the factory and I have kept it that way. To date, I have not had a starting problem on the road due to batteries. I have killed several sets of starting batteries at home due to my own negligence. For my use I could probably get by with two group 31 batteries, but it hasn't been worth rewiring things.
Sean is truly a talented electrical engineer. His electrical system on his motorhome was easy to operate, but incredibly complicated wiring wise. Also having 8-8D batteries (should read his adventure of replacing those beasts), is 1250lbs. Course, most buses are not near the weight limits.
Choose your electrical system. I believe in simplicity with manual switching for everything-but then you need to know what you're doing and teach others what to do. Sean's systems were aimed at anyone capable of turning a switch. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on August 04, 2017, 07:58:23 AM
Sean is truly a talented electrical engineer. His electrical system on his motorhome was easy to operate, but incredibly complicated wiring wise. Also having 8-8D batteries (should read his adventure of replacing those beasts), is 1250lbs. Course, most buses are not near the weight limits.
Choose your electrical system. I believe in simplicity with manual switching for everything-but then you need to know what you're doing and teach others what to do. Sean's systems were aimed at anyone capable of turning a switch. Good Luck, TomC
He had a lot of bucks in that bus that he didn't even come close on getting back when he sold it and it cost him a bundle to keep it going over the years
Quote from: luvrbus on August 04, 2017, 08:15:31 AM
He had a lot of bucks in that bus that he didn't even come close on getting back when he sold it and it cost him a bundle to keep it going over the years
Clifford, isn't that the standard saying for every busnut. Maybe we should make bronze placards with that saying and sell them to every busnut to put on the front of the coach. Hey, I'd even offer a great discount to make it less true. LOL