Hey everyone.
Wondering what you all thought about getting a 95 D3 s60 with 630,000 on her for $8000.
Runs, moves well, airbags all fine, partial rebuild on motor (no cylinder kits), AC repairs have been an odyssey, one valve left to replace(?)...
Talked to the diesel shop that worked on the rig and he mentioned that she's getting close to a bull gear replacement (800-900K) and to redo the cylinders at that time. I was super gung ho about the deal until I got the numbers on bull gear failure or bull gear replacement with engine overhaul. That's a tough reality.
Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated.
Peace
All engines are a tough reality $$$$$ when it comes time,a buddy of mine lost a cam bearing in a ISM Cummins by the time Cummins finished cost him $37,812.18 thats more than his bus is worth
misposted
So much for the 60 series being so great.They all have issues of some sort or other. As long as the buyer is well informed on potential major issues down the road. Maybe you could pick up an engine with lower miles.
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 01, 2017, 05:12:34 PM
So much for the 60 series being so great.They all have issues of some sort or other. As long as the buyer is well informed on potential major issues down the road. Maybe you could pick up an engine with lower miles.
Easier/cheaper to do with a v71 or v92 series :)
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 01, 2017, 05:12:34 PM
So much for the 60 series being so great.They all have issues of some sort or other. As long as the buyer is well informed on potential major issues down the road. Maybe you could pick up an engine with lower miles.
The motor had work, I thought it was a top end rebuild, but some other stuff was done, don't know why they didn't do a full rebuild. It was handled in a motor pool at a large college, so I think the mechanic might have had solid knowledge and just had the work done that was necessary.
But I wish it were fully rebuilt. It kind of busted my groove.
I'm kind of looking for some pro-con stuff, hand holding and whatnot...
Been really thinking about a modern coach, but when I got the quote on motor AND bull gear it really threw me for a loop. I think they are just all ugly decisions.
Went and checked out a Prevost H3-41 today. Similar kind of ugly decisions. So much nice about the rig, then a few bummers.
Problem is we'll be laying ourselves out a bit more on the more modern coach shell.
How many miles are you going to put on this thing in how long?
If that has 630k now... in busnut use, the bull gear will come due in, oh, idk, 2055?
From the first busnut pioneers all the way to us today, buying an old coach has risk.
If the coach engine is in good shape, it is still capable of making income, and priced accordingly.
No free lunch.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Don't get frustrated and anxious. You are doing very well doing your due diligence and asking the tough questions. The answers aren't very pleasant but rest assured it is a whole lot easier than having bought a sick one that immediately becomes a bottomless bit for all your energy and money.
I looked at mid 90's D3, specifically 1995 102D3 with Series 60/Allison B500 combo and DDEC III/IV? ECM. They are out there in well maintained shape for about 15k. That is in stock OTR configuration.
The folks here guided me away from a DIY conversion to finding an already converted coach. Very good value as it will cost you much more to DIY than buy another's already done project. The problem is there are very few really good conversions based on mid 90's shells, at least in my price range.
It's just the nature of the beast., Many conversions were done in the mid 90's, based on 20 year old buses. That is why you see many late 70's, early 80's buses with dated conversions done in the mid 90's. In fact, if you bring the clock to present, you are thinking about doing the same thing. Buy a 20 year old mid 90's bus and DIY convert it. You will follow the same tracks as those before you and pour 6 figures into it and several years to get it done. Then get rudely slapped to find it is worth cents on the dollar.
Look at buses from Florida or California no east coast salt corrosion issues. I bought my 1989 Prevost on Ebay with all seats removed, picked it up in Nevada and drove home to Connecticut. It has 684,000 miles, has a Reliabuilt silver 8v92. The hub meter showed 250,000 when I picked it up so I assume that is what is on the 8V92 for miles. Cheap is not always the way to go find the best you can afford. Unless you can do all the work yourself it will cost $$$$. Good Luck !! ;D ;D
buswarrior - We'll be putting 15-30K per year on it. Thanks for the probing/leading question. Good stuff, for sure.
scanzel - bus is a SE bus, so should be much better than north or NE rigs.
windtrader - I'm not sure if a fully converted bus is going to work for us. We have about 50-60sf of crating space for the dogs that must be accessible and efficient. We are also very spartan when it comes to lifestyle -- we live in on the ground floor of a factory now, and have put together the whole 3000sf space with found items and elbow grease.
We also have access to some amazing shops and our family are capable of the technical coach work (plumbing, electric, cabinetry).
The plan is to get the bus, remove seats (if not already done), re-floor, drop our genny in, bed, plumbing for toilet/shower/sink, and hit the road.
Big work on interior to come at downtime at one of the family shops.
I'm thinking we can roll like Zephod for a while on the cheap? Is that out of line?
Without verification, that mileage figure is wind noise in the trees.
Way too low for a coach that age, unless it has been doing unusual things. To earn it's purchase price, it needed to haul @$# close on 100k a year to make the payments, and each subsequent owner had to do the same.
The engine ECM will tell the tale, or tell you how long it has been installed. That's some of the game. Swapping ECM to cover the reality is not unheard of...
IF the engine mileage can be reliably estimated, build into your business plan some engine preventive maintenance spending out in year 3 or 4 and down the road you go? Do not subsidize your doggie business model with the coach's maintenance budget...!!!
Remember, perspective: all of us with old 2 strokes are looking down the barrel of a $25 000 gun, if we blow ours up and have to pay...
At the $8k price point, I'd expect the interior is getting shop-worn, pieces missing in the overheads, nicks and dings?
If the interior is beautiful and fresh.... you need to wonder what's going on?
If this is where you go, have one of the coach re-fit companies remove the interior for their future use and barter some other stuff you need from them?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on August 02, 2017, 08:35:50 AM
Without verification, that mileage figure is wind noise in the trees.
Way too low for a coach that age, unless it has been doing unusual things. To earn it's purchase price, it needed to haul @$# close on 100k a year to make the payments, and each subsequent owner had to do the same.
The engine ECM will tell the tale, or tell you how long it has been installed. That's some of the game. Swapping ECM to cover the reality is not unheard of...
IF the engine mileage can be reliably estimated, build into your business plan some engine preventive maintenance spending out in year 3 or 4 and down the road you go? Do not subsidize your doggie business model with the coach's maintenance budget...!!!
Remember, perspective: all of us with old 2 strokes are looking down the barrel of a $25 000 gun, if we blow ours up and have to pay...
At the $8k price point, I'd expect the interior is getting shop-worn, pieces missing in the overheads, nicks and dings?
If the interior is beautiful and fresh.... you need to wonder what's going on?
If this is where you go, have one of the coach re-fit companies remove the interior for their future use and barter some other stuff you need from them?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Thanks buswarrior.
The vehicle is a large university rig, maintained at the motor pool with copious documentation -- 63 pages with mileage from 2003 -- so it ferried college students and sports teams. Big work was farmed out. Not really a money maker kind of rig, I think.
Interior is listed as a fault, but I'm pretty sure that disclaimer is for tour service, which is not applicable to us.
Love the idea of bartering with a refit company. If I pull the trigger I'll need some additional info on that.
peace~
Quote from: buswarrior on August 02, 2017, 08:35:50 AM
IF the engine mileage can be reliably estimated, build into your business plan some engine preventive maintenance spending out in year 3 or 4 and down the road you go? Do not subsidize your doggie business model with the coach's maintenance budget...!!!
The plan is to lose our monthly factory rent and leverage that towards maintenance, operation, and repairs. We've been at home, in NY at the factory, for less than 2 months of the last 2 years, and we've had some changes within the city that makes handling our pack of dogs difficult.
Anyone got some guesstimates of 20-30K per year in preventative maintenance on a modern coach? On an older model?
Here are the last 4 years of maintenance records. I had to interpret them a bit, as most of is is purchase order stuff.
This goes back to 2003:
5/9/17 - Oil 75,339
5/2/17 - Cooling Drive Belt 75,339
3/21/17 - AC Repair 74,601
1/13/17 - Oil 72,815
11/30/16 - Park Brake Control Valve - 73,011
11/10/16 - Amber Marker Lights - 72,457
10/4/16 - air dryer cartridge and purge valve - 70,701
9/27/16 - Grease Chassis - 70,214
9/27/16 - 55 Gallon Oil 70,214
9/27/16 - Air Filter #8823
9/27/16 - Headlight
9/27/16 - Oil Filter
Secondary Fuel Filter
Primary Fuel Filter
9/22/16 - Air Brake Dryer Cartridge
9/14/16 - LH Tag Tire 69,562
5/20/16 - Air System inlet schrader valve 66,441
5/18/16 - driveline joint 66,441
5/17/16 - Tag Axle Tires
4/5/16 - Park Brake Handle
2/18/16 - Oil Change - 62,856
10/29/15 - Upper Radius Rod 60,436
Lower Radius Rod
Bellow Assembly w/ Piston
10/8/15 - 55 Gallon Oil (change) 59,484
8/31/15 - AC Panel Hair Filter 59,019
Brake Lining on new shoes
8/11/15 - AC recharge, low side service, pull vacuum 58,253
7/28/15 - Rt Steering Axle Air Bag 58,211
Drive Axle Shoe (less brake lining)
7/23/15 - Air Filter 58,192
Grease Chassis
Oil Change
Secondary Fuel Filter
Primary Fuel Filter
Oil Filter
Antifreeze
7/14/15 - RH outer Drive tire 58,118
7/1/15 - Steering Axle Brakes 57,865
Reline shoes #4228 lining
6/7/15 - Rear Brake Spring 57,865
ft & tag axle brake spring
steering lh slack adjuster
rh slack adjuster
drive axle brake drums
steer axle brake drums
tag axle shocks
Tag axle airbags
rh & lh drive axle slack adjuster
8 wheels & stems
6/15/15 - Reupholster drivers seat 57,865
5/18/15 - Refurbish AC Heather Blower Motor
3/30/15 - Heater Blower resistor 55,776
3/10/15 - Evaporator / Heater Blower Motor 54,448
---
Dropped the 500,000 moniker and went to ten thousandths place... go math!
---
1/14/15 - Headlight 552,952
11/4/14 - Marker Light Bulbs
10/31/14 - Air Reducer at Dryer
Reman Air Dryer assembly
10/29/15 - AC Belt Set 551,938
9/18/14 - AC Recharge and Fix 549,907
8/14/14 -High idle repair 549,606
2 tires
7/17/14 - Trans Fluid 549,573
6/16/15 - Belt Guide Bearing 548,553
Belt Guide Shaft
Lav Slide Valve
AC Belt
Alternator Assembly
5/9/14 - Refurb Heater Blower @$# 548,377
4/11/14 - Oil Pressure Sending Unit
3/7/14 - Air Dryer Pop Off Valve 545,456
2/10/14 - Trans Shift Pad 543,811
Heater Circuit Breaker
Turn Signal Clapper
Heater Blower Resistor
12/30/13 - R&R King Pins Front End Align
11/22/13 - 2 Drive or Tag Axle tires 542,595
11/21/13 - PStrg Gearbox @$# 542,595
11/18/13 - Air Filter
Grease Chassis
Oil Change
Secondary Fuel Filter
Primary Fuel Filter
Oil Filter
10/31/13 - LH Headlight Wire Harness 540,857
Tag Light HSG & Pigtail
10/4/13 - Steering Axle Tire 539,113
4/19/13 - Repair Baldor Electric Motor 536,084
4/11/13 - Engine Repair (all but cylinders) 535,112
2 Batteries (warranty)
Power Steering Oil
I'm not sure how to read these, and oil was purchased in bulk at multiple times for the fleet. Couldn't tell when oil changes were done, but there was a lot of oil referenced more than quarterly.
Any thoughts on this insanity?
QuoteI'm thinking we can roll like Zephod for a while on the cheap? Is that out of line?
You'll need to get Zephod to report in. AFAIK, he is not travelling anywhere near the miles you plan.
One benefit of Series 60 is it is a four stroke that will go much further before rebuilds and also get better mileage than the older two strokes. The electronic control adds complexity and likely more dependence on shop labor, i.e. more $$$
$8K is very very low. It may be a diamond in the rough. Still, make sure you have it checked out by a pro. There are many more 4 stroke qualified bus mechanics around. Ah, another benefit of Series 60 - qualified service is much easier to find.
Being spartan is a big benefit with respect to what you need inside. You don't need anything done except tear out the seats, throw down a mattress, and go. Put a camp stove in, poo at the fast food store, and bath in the river. Bottled water and you're good to go.
Quote from: k9disc on August 02, 2017, 10:32:04 AMHere are the last 4 years of maintenance records. ... Any thoughts on this insanity?
Looks like careful service (good) but a lot of recent air conditioner repair -- which could mean that the system is totally up to date, finely tuned, and ready to go years ... or ... that it's about to trip and fall on its face dying like a marathon runner. If it's the latter, bring $$$.
There's a fair amount of service on the air dryer system. It's a good idea to stay on top of the replaceable parts (filter, purge valve), but "other things" could mean the brake system is tired or the air compressor on the engine is not working well.
Tires should be good but you have to check the date codes on the tire (probably the inside of the tire) -- look for something like 0714, that's the middle of February, 2014, 1-52 for week of the year and the last two digits of the year. You do NOT want to see 0706.
But the big thing is that you're looking at a vehicle that has been driven to the moon and back and it's over 20 years old. The big thing is the inspection and that's not 100% foolproof.
A good thing to do is to cultivate friendship with a small local charter outfit. If you can get on their good side, ask them about the sharpest, most experienced, and most reasonably priced mechanic. One place that might be good is Rondout Charter Bus, they're near Wawarsing on US209 south of Kingston (not too far south of Sue Sternberg's place) -- I've never met them and they might not be friendly/helpful but it's worth asking, I guess.
Get a good inspection and a consult on bull gear/bearing replacement.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on August 02, 2017, 12:58:49 PM
Looks like careful service (good) but a lot of recent air conditioner repair -- which could mean that the system is totally up to date, finely tuned, and ready to go years ... or ... that it's about to trip and fall on its face dying like a marathon runner. If it's the latter, bring $$$.
There's a fair amount of service on the air dryer system. It's a good idea to stay on top of the replaceable parts (filter, purge valve), but "other things" could mean the brake system is tired or the air compressor on the engine is not working well.
Tires should be good but you have to check the date codes on the tire (probably the inside of the tire) -- look for something like 0714, that's the middle of February, 2014, 1-52 for week of the year and the last two digits of the year. You do NOT want to see 0706.
But the big thing is that you're looking at a vehicle that has been driven to the moon and back and it's over 20 years old. The big thing is the inspection and that's not 100% foolproof.
A good thing to do is to cultivate friendship with a small local charter outfit. If you can get on their good side, ask them about the sharpest, most experienced, and most reasonably priced mechanic. One place that might be good is Rondout Charter Bus, they're near Wawarsing on US209 south of Kingston (not too far south of Sue Sternberg's place) -- I've never met them and they might not be friendly/helpful but it's worth asking, I guess.
Get a good inspection and a consult on bull gear/bearing replacement.
Thanks for the response, Oonrahnjay. Sounds like great info...
I hung out with Lou from Rondout Charters yesterday. He's got a couple of 95 & 97 h3-41s for sale pretty cheap (lancer insurance - 845 phone #). They're out of service, and a bit rough, but they were pretty cheap. Love his hoist. Holy cow! quite an experience seeing a big bus like that from underneath!
His son does most of the work on the coaches. I'm planning on hitting him up in the future on bus stuff. He seems like a good guy to know and we kind of hit it off.
Thanks again for the thoughtful and informative reply.
He's a super cool guy, thinks MCIs are junk and the Prevost is the only way to go...
Hello, I am in the process of converting a 1998 H3-41. It has 675,000 miles on it. I had someone scare me about the bull gear issue. I pulled off the alternator drive pulley and put a dial indicator on the bull gear and the play was less than 0.001 inches. The alternator drive pulley had worn bearings and the seal leaked. I put in a rebuilt alternator drive and stopped worrying about the bull gear failure.
I am very happy with my coach. Mine was poorly maintained with spotty records. I bought it because the body and structure were in good condition. I repaired the issues related to poor maintenance.
On the D3, when was the last time the transmission was rebuilt? The B500 go around 400,000 miles.
Bandsaw