Hello bus friends! Jen Martin here (Billy's wife)-- we are about to set sail to our next location and we just realized our house batteries have exploded!! Any ideas as to why this would happen?
Thanks in advance!!
Battery gas and a spark in an enclosed area.
--Geoff
HI;
I noticed holes in the plywood to the left. Some one was thinking about gas and
ventilation issues. Also noticed there is/was no water in the battery that blew
up. Might want to check the water in the other batteries. Mean while, I think you
need another group 31 battery.
Merle.
Batteries release hydrogen when being charged; this is explosive/flammable in concentrations over ~4% of total air volume. General safety would be to keep concentration under 2% for a little bit of a buffer.
When batteries are charged improperly hydrogen sulfide can be produced. This is a toxic gas but you can tell when it happens (you can smell the sulfur like smell from the sulfide)... not all that common. If your battery releases hydrogen sulfide it is because you are literally cooking them/failing to water them.
Doesn't take much of a spark to cause a minor "explosion" if the concentration of hydrogen is right which is why typically ventilation is required; or just don't stuff them into a little box and put the lid on it ---> larger air volume means larger amount of hydrogen require to get to the 4% threshold.
Also, make sure you are watering your batteries! Very important to check periodically.
Some of the maintenance free batteries can be tough checking water levels.
These in the pic look to be tough. I would use a box or two of baking soda to neutralize the spilled acid. Then a good follow up with a water hose the area somehow.
Floyd
maybe overcharged or vented out through plywood box but should also have some holes in the bottom to the outside so it doesn 't build up inside the bay with nowhere to go. Look around near it is there anything that might create a spark? if so put it in another bay. A good 3 stage charger works well but not in that same box.
Had there been a build up of hydrogen outside the battery, in the box, the box would have been in pieces. The battery was low on water and had room for hydrogen to build up and it doesn't require a spark just a hot spot on one of those exposed plates. When you get new batteries, change the wiring. There are much better ways to wire the batteries for longer life and better charging.
Baking soda, check! We've cleaned up and I've heard Sam's Club is a good place to get deep cycle batteries. What kinds do I need? Currently I have three, well make that two and one exploded to bits. And how should I wire them that's different than before? Anyone have a diagram or reference?
Looking at your photos you need to toss the converter charger and small inverter you are running the fridge on and buy a inverter with 3 stage charging capabilities ,DC converters are nothing but problems when it comes to charging house batteries.Sam's deep cycle batteries are as good as any for flooded batteries
They're expensive but I have 3 (8D) Lifelines under mine. AGM's. no gas. Been there a few years now. A good Magnum inverting/charger .
Quote from: muldoonman on June 17, 2017, 05:50:50 AM
They're expensive but I have 3 (8D) Lifelines under mine. AGM's. no gas. Been there a few years now. A good Magnum inverting/charger .
Trust me AGM batteries can be a problem also with thermal runaway I have 6-8D's to prove it ;D
Granted, there can be problems with any kind of battery. I've had good luck with Lifeline AGM batteries. No water to check (they're sealed), can operate in any position (except upside down), normally do not gas as long as the charging voltage is under 14.1v, can be charged very fast due to the less resistance inherent to AGM. My first set of 2-8D's lasted 7 years-good considering they have a 5 year warranty. During those 7 years, because of AGM's don't gas, never cleaned the terminals. In fact, I did zero maintenance on them-it was as though they weren't even there. Good Luck, TomC
LifeLine requires spacing for air movement around the batteries and in a vented area now I just went through this and they said read the install instructions they do gas but in small amounts because it is regulated
I like the old 6 volt gulf cart batteries ( but if you are using 12 volt you need 4 of them ) easy to add water and they are hard to kill and are less money then most and my first set lasted for 10 years
I vented my wood box on the bottom on one end and on the top on the other end
dave
My battery solution is different. I run small batteries as my demands are very low....
A 5AH and a 10AH in a steel ammunition box, held in place with riveted steel brackets. Baking soda sprinkled around and packs of baking soda taped on top of the batteries (not only does it neutralize acid but it puts out fires. Those batteries run my two ventilation set ups.
Two 7AH batteries in another ammunition box. Again, brackets and baking soda.
The two battery packs can be interchanged and one or other can be used to charge cellphone, tablet, MiFi pad etc.
Lighting - that's D cell powered lanterns and the D cells are disposable. At 50C a battery, it's not worth the bother of putting in dedicated lighting.
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Quote from: luvrbus on June 17, 2017, 05:42:45 AM
Looking at your photos you need to toss the converter charger and small inverter you are running the fridge on and buy a inverter with 3 stage charging capabilities ,DC converters are nothing but problems when it comes to charging house batteries.Sam's deep cycle batteries are as good as any for flooded batteries
if u are running lead acid...u want 4 stage charger to de-sulfate/equalize...
Years ago we had a Nickel Cadmium 180 ah. stationary cell medium rate battery internal direct short out. Located in the forced ventilated dedicated battery box outside the old solar homestead cabin.
Put on quite a quick vocal noisy display complete with all the neat cool but potentially dangerous various shorting out noises. Finally had the finale with the top blowing off. Quite an event. Be safe! :)
Merle
Sorry to hear about your experience.
I had two batteries go on me in one year. The first was in my bobcat and the second was in our 182 Cessna. We were flying from Montana to Nevada and were about 30 miles from our destination. I felt a slight shudder in the plane. Then my mind wondered what it felt like when pilots planes were hit during battle. We continued to our destination without any problems. When on the ground I could smell the sulfur and when parked found leakage from the vent. Needless to say acid and aluminum don't mix well and I spent the next few hours cleaning. The case of the battery was deformed but stayed intact. The caps blew off. The batteries died due to faulty alternator on the bobcat and generator on the plane. The batteries were cooked to death. I would check the charging system before trusting it with your new batteries. The plane generator checked good immediately after but a short time later it failed.
My Experience
John
Can't thank you all enough for your thoughtful responses! Please know you were comforting in this process and we greatly appreciate you! We have removed the bad battery and are using a single (original) 12v temporarily. One reads 11.22 and the other 12.22. We connected the 12.22 battery and the generator started fine. can you help me understand something about our system that we don't understand. There's a breaker on the converter/charger that when on stops the inverter from beeping.
The fridge and a few outlets are attached to the inverter. I don't know why or if that's good or bad. What is that breaker? Is it charging the house batteries? Why does the inverter begin to beep if I turn that breaker off?
Has anybody tried lithium batteries?
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Quote from: luvrbus on June 17, 2017, 08:50:12 AM
LifeLine requires spacing for air movement around the batteries and in a vented area now I just went through this and they said read the install instructions they do gas but in small amounts because it is regulated
Have my batteries spaced and a vent in floor with a fan I bought from Grainger sucking cool air in across Inverter and batteries blowing out gen set box. If it explodes and catches fire hope I'm not in it as I have it insured. ;D
Quote from: Billysurf on June 17, 2017, 03:31:39 PM
Can't thank you all enough for your thoughtful responses! Please know you were comforting in this process and we greatly appreciate you! We have removed the bad battery and are using a single (original) 12v temporarily. One reads 11.22 and the other 12.22. We connected the 12.22 battery and the generator started fine. can you help me understand something about our system that we don't understand. There's a breaker on the converter/charger that when on stops the inverter from beeping.
The fridge and a few outlets are attached to the inverter. I don't know why or if that's good or bad. What is that breaker? Is it charging the house batteries? Why does the inverter begin to beep if I turn that breaker off?
What type of inverter do you have? Charger? Where is the "breaker" on the unit? Are the connections on the converter/charger connected to the same battery? I believe you're supposed to keep all the batteries as close to the same charge as possible. You might want to connect the charger to charge all the batteries equally. I have a PD4590 (Progressive Dynamics, 90A it's the electrical "hub"...I love it) that has three stages for charging. When all four batteries are charged, it just provides a trickle so as not to cook them.
Quote from: Zephod on June 17, 2017, 03:59:51 PM
Has anybody tried lithium batteries?
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Technomadia has tried lithium cells and has a real good article about them. Likely others have as well.
Billysurf, Your 3 battery bank, the picture doesn't show the connection points that come off the bank?
If you have them coming off one end, you are killing batteries.
Electricity takes the shortest path. The battery out the end is doing little work and getting little charge. The close battery is doing all the work and getting all the charge.
The battery with the low voltage is the furthest one out, and the middle one exploded?
Your inverter is mad at you, the voltage is too low. The breaker you are turning on will be turning some charging source on, so the inverter sees good voltage and shuts up.
My guess is you need a whole new set of batteries, and you have to do some steep learning, and possibly replace the charging equipment, or you'll murder the new ones too.
What is the charging source for this battery bank?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on June 19, 2017, 06:41:24 AM
Billysurf, Your 3 battery bank, the picture doesn't show the connection points that come off the bank?
If you have them coming off one end, you are killing batteries.
Electricity takes the shortest path. The battery out the end is doing little work and getting little charge. The close battery is doing all the work and getting all the charge.
The battery with the low voltage is the furthest one out, and the middle one exploded?
Your inverter is mad at you, the voltage is too low. The breaker you are turning on will be turning some charging source on, so the inverter sees good voltage and shuts up.
My guess is you need a whole new set of batteries, and you have to do some steep learning, and possibly replace the charging equipment, or you'll murder the new ones too.
What is the charging source for this battery bank?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
EXACTLY...You said it much better than I did.
I learned that lesson, luckily without any explosion.
Could the condition of the short bank cables be the cause of the middle battery exploding, rather than the connected one?
The good folk at SmartGauge have a useful article about how to, or how not to, interconnect batteries: http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html (http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html) You have your batteries interconnected as per their example 1. This company's technical articles have taught me more than almost any other single source of information. Their original focus was marine, specifically for narrowboats used on inland waterways, but a lot of what's good for them is also good for us bus owners.
Having an odd number of batteries can sometimes be problematic, and will make it impossible to use good ol' 6V golfcart batteries in series and parallel. Do you have space for a battery box large enough for four golfcart or Group 31 batteries?
John
Quote from: buswarrior on June 19, 2017, 06:41:24 AM
Billysurf, Your 3 battery bank, the picture doesn't show the connection points that come off the bank?
If you have them coming off one end, you are killing batteries.
Electricity takes the shortest path. The battery out the end is doing little work and getting little charge. The close battery is doing all the work and getting all the charge.
The battery with the low voltage is the furthest one out, and the middle one exploded?
Your inverter is mad at you, the voltage is too low. The breaker you are turning on will be turning some charging source on, so the inverter sees good voltage and shuts up.
My guess is you need a whole new set of batteries, and you have to do some steep learning, and possibly replace the charging equipment, or you'll murder the new ones too.
What is the charging source for this battery bank?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Thank you!!!
I think our charging source is a Paralaxx Power Systems Series 500 converter/charger.
Quote from: daddysgirl on June 18, 2017, 08:56:09 AM
What type of inverter do you have? Charger? Where is the "breaker" on the unit? Are the connections on the converter/charger connected to the same battery? I believe you're supposed to keep all the batteries as close to the same charge as possible. You might want to connect the charger to charge all the batteries equally. I have a PD4590 (Progressive Dynamics, 90A it's the electrical "hub"...I love it) that has three stages for charging. When all four batteries are charged, it just provides a trickle so as not to cook them.
Thank you Andrea!! We are learning...!
I'm very glad If I was able to give you any information or a train of thought ;D
And never forget...we are all learning.
IDK from the pictures, and THIS MIGHT NOT BE YOUR UNIT.
I do NOT want to frighten you in any way.
That said, I always look for recall info for house power systems. This came up, but again, your unit might be different. But it's good practice to look for any recall information when you get something new to you.
https://www.saferproducts.gov/ViewIncident/1352438 (https://www.saferproducts.gov/ViewIncident/1352438)