The wife and I are looking at getting a coach. The debate is between remodeling/updating one that is already converted or starting with a blank slate.
Anyways, one we're looking at, that is a strong contender, is a 91 102A3. It was converted to a Series 50 before it reached the current owner and details are limited. Trying to find more info on-line, I read somewhere that Greyhound did this to some of their 102A3s. Per the VIN, it was originally a 6v92ta. Beyond being an Allison, I couldn't begin to guess at what the transmission
could be. First gear from a stop felt like maybe a parking brake was sticking, but my experience is extremely limited in the "driving a bus" department. What should I expect in the drivetrain department with this having the S50?
This also has a wheelchair lift further back on the side. Has anyone completed a conversion keeping that door, but removing the actual lift equipment? I am a fan of the idea of a larger door to maneuver larger stuff in and out as necessary.
Finally, what is the approximate tonnage, or BTU, of the OTR A/C? It's a 47 seater w/o restroom. At high, or fast, Idle, it took 90 and humid to tolerable in about 30 minutes while sitting in the sun.
Thanks in advance!
Welcome,
I still a noob in search of my first bus. The initial thought was to DIY convert a passenger bus. Quickly the folks here put the light on that option - mucho time and much mucho $$. For whatever reason, or in fact, many reasons, the current already converted bus market leans heavily in favor for buyers. Unless you have an unwavering vision of a custom design for your bus, you will get far more for your buck in a far shorter period of time by picking up an already converted bus. Take the time and learn first before jumping.
Or you could do what I did....found one that was partially converted makes it useable while we add what we want mines a 1988 102A3 gave $7k for it and it has the wheel chair lift door as well ...plans are for keeping it. We play in a blue grass band so loading our instruments MUCH easier with the door....good luck
J_E, welcome to the board. I'm sure you will get more opinions than you asked for, but weigh them all equally as only you know what you're capable of and what you want to tackle. I thought converting from scratch was the way to go and ended up buying a factory converted one. Now we're just remodeling all the time. ;D
Whatever you decide, good luck,
Will and Wife
Thanks, folks!! It's weird, but the best advice I have been given so far is to "buy a bus like you drive a bus: slow and deliberate."
In all honesty, I am more concerned about our trips bearing any resemblance to a Nation's Lampoon movie than I am worried about difficulty. As far as cost, spend more now or spend more later. I am capable enough to accomplish my goal with everything except upholstery, but my wife has that covered (literally).
Here's my take, if it has a fresh 50 series swap and it runs good, and the price is good, buy it. 4 stroke buses command a premium.
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I have a 102C3 with the series 50 engine. Love the way it runs. I would want to find out what transmission and rear end that the bus has. The series 50 wants to run at a lower RPM than the 6V92.
Jack
As to the over the road A/C performance, I can walk in my bus with the temp being 90 inside, fire up the generator, turn on all 3 roof top A/C's and have it comfortable in less than 15 minutes. Sounds like a long time for OTR A/C to work. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on June 06, 2017, 09:23:12 AM
As to the over the road A/C performance, I can walk in my bus with the temp being 90 inside, fire up the generator, turn on all 3 roof top A/C's and have it comfortable in less than 15 minutes. Sounds like a long time for OTR A/C to work. Good Luck, TomC
So you are at about a ton of cooling per 100sqft of floor space? Seems like you would hit set point rather quickly and not get any dehumidification. Depending on location, I guess that could be a good thing.
From what I am seeing though, it seems like it is common practice to have nearly double the BTU per sqft than is recommended for residential applications. I had figured removing some windows, spray foam insulation, a 15K btu ducted unit for the rear bedroom/bathroom/bunk area and a 13.5k btu unit for the kitchen and front area would probably be sufficient. Especially since my wife will wear a sweater when the thermostat is set at 76.
We should know in the next day or so if we are going with the '91 or if the search will continue. There was a Neoplan Megaliner listed on CL, but over 13ft tall and 48ish ft long seemed a both a bit over the top and more than a bit limiting on where it could be taken.
It is sad to admit but we are considering selling our bus (1985 MCI102A3) at this time. Over the course of the last couple years our idea of what we want in the near future has changed and we don't think the bus fits into that future any longer. If we do sell it I will likely get another bus someday when I have the space to completely convert the thing.
Anyhow, if you are interested I would be happy to show you where we are at with the conversion. We aren't looking to make money out of it, hopefully just get some of what we put into it back. We have a ton of documentation of the entire build process; it has been extensive. Just thought I would throw it out there! Best of luck with your search.
J_E, the opposite of what you are proposing might work better. After converting and living in two buses, I can honestly say that the front a/c needs to be the 15k btu and you can easily get away with a 13.5 for the rear. The windshield, side glass, entry door all really bring in the heat. A 13.5 will be working hard all the time to keep up. We are spray foamed and well insulated and we run a 15 in the rear and a 15 in the front. Keeps us very comfy (we have it set to 67 during the day lol. We like it chilly. We generally only need to run one at a time too.
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Well that is the exact set up that we started with. We have kept the side door with a side hall setup with a separate bathroom between 2 bedrooms. You are right about the side door being use full for getting conversion items in such as a 10 cf fridge and the double bed raised storage platform in our case.
We get 10 mpg to a canadian gallon without the toad. The time it took us to get it usable (no kitchen cupboard doors ) for our first summer trip of 55 days was only 3 months. Second summer saw a kolar rv genset and 1 13 500 ac unit and upper cabinet doors on . 3rd year hopefully new covering on the re purposed dinnet and copilot seats.
Good luck with your search .
Chuck
Maybe I am confused. Are these photos of the S50 or a 6V92TA? It idled much smoother that I was led to expect from a S50.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7wToc0YVZbxdmtDYlVwZWo0blE/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7wToc0YVZbxWlIxbUVob1hRWXc/view?usp=sharing
If the links don't or won't work, I will get the photos resized and attached, or upload them to photobucket and re-linked.
Looks like a series 50 to me, also needs a new fuel filter.
Looks just like my s50 and if you see the rectangle plate top center just to the right of blue intake of side pic, it will tell you the rating for motor , 275 hp in my case.
I don't see why some think they idle so bad but I don't find it a issue .
Chuck
Two things with S50 idle-they make special soft engine mounts. And S50 has twin counter rotating balancing shafts under the engine in the crankcase. Since the balancing shafts also drive the oil pump, the S50 is the only engine I know that you have to time the oil pump (LOL). Suggested rebuild/replacing of the balancing shaft assembly-300,000mi. In my opinion-S50 is the perfect bus conversion engine. Good Luck, TomC
Thanks for all of the feedback and info guys. We've decided to get the '91. We decided to start from a blank slate. I'll get some more pics up when I get everything finalized. The adventure is about to begin.
Dbldragon: It sounds like we are planning a similar floor plan to what y'all have going. How did you set up the actual hitch for your toad? I've read that Prevost built heavier hitched for some of the models that get converted to RVs. I don't suppose that MCI ever did that.
TomC: I've read a little about the balance shafts, but missed the oil pump bit. Is there a way to tell when they are due if you are not sure of the mileage on the engine? The odometer is showing 323K, and since this is a replacement engine, I think I might be ok for at least a while.
jcdillin: In person, it almost looked like bio growing on the filter. Servicing/replacing the fuel filter is high on the list of things to address with new to me vehicles. I also figure a dose or two of Bio Kleen from Power Service wouldn't hurt.
Scott&Heather: I keep forgetting about all of the glass in the windshield when taking a stab at a plan for AC. Using 110V 30A as a power limit for everything is keeping me from getting too creative, which is probably a good thing.
EDIT: I keep forgetting to ask if anyone has experience with Rush Bus Center or with Americorp Diesel repair on the North side of Houston?
You don't want 30amp service. Do 50 amp with a 30 amp pigtail.
--Geoff
Watch the oil pressure when the balance shafts are going bad the oil pressure will drop.
They don't idle rough if the RPMS are set a little higher you set it 450 or 500 rpm it will shake the sheets from the bed so will a series 60,2 stroke owners all think they idle rough and they do compared to DD 2 stroke I don't like the idle on my 60 series
If you are going to start with a passenger bus, look into the '95-'97 ish 102D3, 40ft Series 60 Allison B500 and DDEC III, pre-EGR 12.7. Since you made the decision to do a full conversion, you've chosen the most costly path. May as well start with the best coach. The difference in the coach cost will disappear once in the entire pile of receipts are stacked up after you've completed the conversion. I would no way start with a two stroke in 2017.
J_E no MCI never did a heavier engine cradle for towing.
Quote from: windtrader
If you are going to start with a passenger bus, look into the '95-'97 ish 102D3, 40ft Series 60 Allison B500 and DDEC III, pre-EGR 12.7. Since you made the decision to do a full conversion, you've chosen the most costly path. May as well start with the best coach. The difference in the coach cost will disappear once in the entire pile of receipts are stacked up after you've completed the conversion. I would no way start with a two stroke in 2017.
Don the 50 Series the 91 he is going with is a 4 Stroke just like the 60 Series just lees cylinders!
Someone already retrofitted that bus with that engine.
He'll have a sweet bus when done.
;D BK ;D
jcdillin: I guess I didn't get where you were going with the fuel filter comment. I figured it out later when I happened to see a youtube video describing that type of fuel filter. Never would have guessed that the level of fuel in a filter could tell you how dirty it's gotten.
It's looking like I will just order a set of manuals for the 102a3. In the mean time, I took a look through the HVAC section of the mc9 manual posted on another site. Looks like I may have found the tonnage of the A/C compressor, if it's similar to the 102a3. It's a monster 7.5 tons or 90,000BTU. My guess was off by about half, even after having seen the compressor in person.
Regards,
Quote from: J_E on June 12, 2017, 06:03:03 PM... the tonnage of the A/C compressor, if it's similar to the 102a3. It's a monster 7.5 tons or 90,000BTU. My guess was off by about half, even after having seen the compressor in person.
Regards,
Yep, Aunt Myrtle wants to come out of the casino, slide into the bus seat, and not have sweat dripping between the cheeks of ... umm, her not-face as the bus rolls out of the parking lot.
Air - Cold - Now; that's what we want.
I'm
Jealous. You're going to love that bus when it's done. And the 50 will get amazing fuel mileage and will have great torque and power and will never overheat. If I could afford it, I'd have one in my coach. But I'm addicted to my 500hp.
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So far I'am pleased with the 50 series I put in my bus, No overheating, Good torque, around 7 MPG, even though I haven't had it turned up in HP yet (not sure what HP it set at right now) The hills slow me down but I'am pulling a 6500lb truck, but on the interstates I can run with most trucks and even pass a few LOL. As far as being rough at ideal mine isn't bad at all. I would like to get it turned up to 350hp - 375hp in the near future. Jason
Well, the deal is done. I am the proud owner of a 91 MCI 102a3. I've got a few things that I am going to address before I hit the road and head back home. I have new fuel and oil filters. I also have a couple of gages to see if I can get sorted water temp (need) and fuel (would be nice). I also have a heckuva lot of learning to do on this bus. Also, I keep forgetting to ask where I should look on the transmission for an ID plate? Currently I just know it's a 4 speed Allison.
Engine says it's rated at 275hp.
OTR A/C has been converted to r-134a. It wont currently freeze you out, but it cooled the bus off ok.
Pics:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7wToc0YVZbxM2ZibkVFTWNEbEU
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7wToc0YVZbxczB0X0NDUklsM2s
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7wToc0YVZbxWGNkTXBxckppNTQ
PS: pic are hosted on google drive, but the links should work. If they do not, let me know and I will get them resized at attach them to a later post.
Great bus! Depending on how far you go with the conversion you are going to have a lot of work on your hands and a heck of a fun time. Being that it is virtually the same bus we have been working on you may want to check out a few of the videos we have done on our conversion (on youtube). Always good to see what not to do ;D.
I don't know if you bought the manuals yet but Daveola has the digital copies for a great price; you may have already seen the ad in the classified section on the forum here.
Best of luck! Look forward to seeing the progress you make
Thanks, I bought the basic set of books from Davola, but he didn't have the S50 book and I still haven't figured out the transmission in it. Except that it is an electronically controlled Allison 4 speed.
Made the 950ish mile trip home with no major issues. Wrote about it over in the travel section.
I have about a million questions, but want to continue reading the books and search the internet before I begin asking.
Regards,
Should be a 748 if it is a 4 speed. Tag on side of tranny. Do you UNDER STAND about going under an air ride bus? SAFETY first, I cut 3" long 3x3x1/4" tubing and place on the axle stops for safety.
To be honestly blunt, I am pretty fricken ignorant when it comes to working on or around an air ride suspension system.
I had realized that an air suspension system would settle down some as the air bleeds off of the system. Well, I say that even though it did surprise me a little when the bus settled down onto the pan I was using to catch my oil. Luckily, it only made the pan a little difficult to move and didn't create a 5+ gallon headache.
Quote from: J_E on June 20, 2017, 06:33:31 PMTo be honestly blunt, I am pretty fricken ignorant when it comes to working on or around an air ride suspension system.
I had realized that an air suspension system would settle down some as the air bleeds off of the system. Well, I say that even though it did surprise me a little when the bus settled down onto the pan I was using to catch my oil. Luckily, it only made the pan a little difficult to move and didn't create a 5+ gallon headache.
Think of the headache it would have made if it had been your head that the bus settled onto instead of the oil catch pan. It HAS happened. (Actually, it's usually the person's rib cage that takes the pressure. The bus settles onto the person and presses the air out of their chest and until they pass out from lack of air or blood in their lungs, they struggle to scream but they can't get enough air to make even a peep come out. Air suspensions can be deadly.)
Words of wisdom here. I do not go under the 4104 without being chocked. Not worth my life for a little time. I think time is is what I have. Money that is another story.
When working under it USE blocking. If a bag went it would come down fast.
The busnut has gone underneath the coach with TOOLS...
If you disturb anything pneumatic, on purpose, or by accident....
Airlines, leveling valve arms, the air bags, the tires, sinking ground under the tires... banging rust off some place, something else lets go...
Squished busnuts have often lowered the coach on themselves.
Not a nice way to die, your last thoughts as you are being crushed, that YOU SCREWED UP, by taking shortcuts on properly preparing the coach to go underneath.
Working under the coach is a multi-day affair for many busnuts, there is no shame in using today's available energy to get the cribbing in place, and crawling under it tomorrow, and taking it back off the cribbing 4 days later because you are too sore after the bus yoga...
I have some good railway tie pieces and a selection of 2 x, 4 x, and 6 x lumber to build up the space. It needs to be a crib, not a single stack. Stacks tip over, cribs far less likely to. Pieces of rope and eyes on the bigger bits makes it easier to drag them in and out of place.
An air over hydraulic jack is a blessing as we get older, saving what's left of our diminishing physicality for the job, and not using it up jacking. Get a short one that will actually go under your jacking points, many of them won't.
The ultimate easy is a pit, but it comes with its own set of VERY significant hazards to you and everyone at your place.
Be safe and continue to be
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I'm betting for sure you have an Allison 748 ATEC trans. You have a touch pad to control it right? Open up your rear most luggage bay on the drivers side, up near the top of the bay next to the "tunnel" you should see a couple of dzus fasters you can use a screwdriver to open. A door should drop down and you should see a ton of wiring and the ATEC control box etc.
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Thanks. I have seen the ATEC box in the engine bay. I do have the touch pad with buttons for R,N,D,3,2,1 and a red warning light. I will got with 748 until I have a chance to crawl under and find the tag.
Thanks also for all of the input on the air suspension. Seems like a sticky post for how to safely work under a bus would probably be a good thing to have? Or did I just miss it somewhere?
Is there a company that will do a roof raise? At 6'4", my head is touching the existing roof and a few more inches would be nice. I could probably manage on my own, but would also like to see what options are out there to have it done. I have seen the one series of MCI conversion websites, but I have gathered that the guy that made them was not exactly trustworthy and never saw much about the guy that supposedly took over afterwards. On the flip side, being a former submariner, short ceilings and confined spaces are not a new experience.
Your bus looks like my buses twin . Same color and drive train. Did it still have the lift in it when you got it ?
Chuck
I don't know which button I pushed but I just looked at hundreds of photos of someone doing an MCI conversion and thought about how I did what they showed on their interior and it brought back memories of my conversion. I spent ten years on my conversion and it was done right and I know I'll never have do it again because it was done right the first time. I would never do another one. Just maintaining is all the work I want anymore.
--Geoff
It does still have the lift. I eventually figured out that the key on the top left of the dash also goes to the lift, but haven't taken the time to figure out how/if it works. Just finished taking 18 of the 21 seats out of the bus. Just swung the lift out and took them all out the side door. I do not envy the folks that had to take them all out the front door.
On a side note, you can fit 17 seats in the lower part of the back of a 17' U-haul. You can fit 18 if you say "eff it" and just flip the 18th on top of one of the other 17.
Make ramps to lift the bus. I used 4-2x8's nailed together and staggered to create a ramp effect. Course 4 of them are long enough to get my tandems in the air, so they are very heavy. But the shorter ones are easily manageable. Wheel blocks should raise the bus high enough so you can crawl in and out with the air suspension down. If you like chocolate cake, you'll have to make them higher to clear your belly. Good Luck, TomC
Thanks everyone on the suggestions for working under the bus. I guess that that just came sooner than later. Smells like I have a sticking brake on the driver's side. Unless the automatic transmission can make a hot brake/clutch smell.
Tom C. I am a great big fan of chocolate cake. You could probably take that a little more literally than I had in mind, but the result is the same.
Quote from: J_E on June 22, 2017, 06:00:53 AM
Is there a company that will do a roof raise? At 6'4", my head is touching the existing roof and a few more inches would be nice.
Jason -From the "NOW you tell me!" files, if you'd done just a little more homework, you'd have discovered that the MCI "C" and later models have a roof that's 3" taller than the "A" series that you bought, and all of that 3" is in interior headroom.
OTOH, since you're an ex-submariner. . . ;D
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Raising the roof isn't a really hard process. Have a good welder and some friends and some planning and it can be done. The prep work is the long stuff. 40 hours worth easy. We did our own roof raise on our 9 but bought our 102c3 already raised. Geoff, did you click on my link of my MCI conversion process? My wife and I should be in a lot of those photos. Wood cabin interior?
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