I've been thinking (Don't start! LOL) and Clifford's post ( http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=31860.0 (http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=31860.0)) just broke the dam.
I had a '72 MCI (Mike & Lori's coach now). After 3 years full time I got to where I couldn't drive it because of a bum knee, and it was old, manual tranny, still had fiberglass insulation...... whatever. When you want something else, you can find an excuse. She was a pretty thing though!
Bought an '82 Wanderlodge. WooWee! Newer, 6V92, Auto, good insulation (mostly) all metal, mostly mechanical, no DDEC. I'm on the big road now! Three years into that and IT'S TOO COTTON PICKING COMPLICATED~!!!! It's got relays to operate the relays and you GOT to keep it plugged in or run the genny. Too much stuff just running in the background. So I sold it..... Gonna DOWNSIZE! Sticks and staples here we come!
So we bought a '91 Holiday Rambler Limited 40. All mechanical... mostly. 3208 Cat, Allison auto. No tag, Smaller cheaper tires. Shorter wheelbase, I can get into my sister's drive without running over her flowers....... So, what's not to like????? Wal, first, IT AIN'T BIG ENOUGH INSIDE TO CUSS A CAT!! The aisle is NARROW. Mind you, I KNEW that when I bought it but I wasn't planning on putting on any weight and the wife is small anyhow but we can't PASS each other in the hallway! If I am headed to the bathroom and she is leaving, we got problems! Also, it's NOT 40'. It's 39 foot and 7 inches. So you're saying "For crying out loud , Tom, getta grip! It's 5 inches!" Right.... 5 inches is no big thing...... BUT about 2 foot is taken up by the fiberglass catfish nose on the front that has the the HVAC and a bunch of electrical stuff in it...... that you can't get to because the stinking hood is 8" X 24" !!!
Did I mention it's all mechanical? Well it is; BUT, all the relays that work everything plug into a COMPUTER BOARD made by INTELLITEC that's NO LONGER AVAILABLE! Now, they will REPAIR the one I have. Price ain't too bad either. You send them the board after you have disconnected and marked the 14 million little wires that connect to it that you can't reach because THE HOOD'S TOO SMALL and then you have to WAIT 4 MONTHS for them to send it back.
So, I'm a little frusterated........ ( That's NOT spelled wrong, that's WHAT I AM!)
So here's my question, particularly to folks like Clifford (the fount of all wisdom and knowledge LOL) and those of you who have forsaken the old ways and embraced the new.....
Wouldcha' go back? Well, wouldcha'? Why? Why not?
There are some very nice Eagles around for reasonable prices now. Not sure I'd buy one of them because I don't know about the suspension. but how 'bout them MCIs? Nice...... Late '80s early '90s maybe....
You know this is PURRDAYY!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/282506439221?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/282506439221?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
It's a '68 an way too much money but who knows what it can be had for?
So what say ye? Honest answers now, no blowing smoke!
TOM
This subject could be debated ad vitam aeternam, and it will be, but let me start.
That 7 is gorgeous. Too bad they put on those ugly caps, they look so much better stock...
Yea for the right price, that would be a great coach.
But the later a bus is, the more modern all the components are, the more reliable it is, the easier it is to service and get serviced, the easier it is to get parts, etc. The modern 4 stroke diesels are very powerful and torquy, the transmissions (like the Allison B500) are totally operated on their own, like you don't have to shift manually like for a HT740. That 8V71 is a great engine, but it will be slow up the hills.
I love the older buses. Particularly MCI, because that is what I used to drive in the old days. I still love my 5C. But I drive late model MCIs and Prevosts at my part time job for a charter company, and I can tell you the modern stuff is day and night compared to the older buses.
I would buy the latest model you can afford. Preferably MCI ;)
JC
Quote from: lostagain on June 05, 2017, 11:59:13 AM
But the later a bus is, the more modern all the components are, the more reliable it is, the easier it is to service and get serviced, the easier it is to get parts, etc. The modern 4 stroke diesels are very powerful and torquy, the transmissions (like the Allison B500) are totally operated on their own, like you don't have to shift manually like for a HT740. That 8V71 is a great engine, but it will be slow up the hills.
JC
Let the mayhem begin! ;D ;D
I don't know that I can agree on being more reliable FOR OUR USE. If you are and entertainer and put lots of miles on the coach, maybe. But how many or us ever put 100K miles on a coach? As far as reliable, that's why Cliffords post peaked my interest. He has a B500 giving him problems. On the Wanderlodge and Foretravel boards, there are plenty of folks with new(er) engines/trannys that have major problems. I don't know how many times I see a post about "Help, do not shift light", "Help, engine no start" , " Help, coach runs 5 miles then goes in limp mode" . I never had a mechanical engine go in to limp; and, even if the shift cable broke, I could still crawl under the coach & put it in D. You are right about 71s being slow, but 92s aren't too bad.
I guess the point I'm making is the old stuff seemed to be easier to maintain and just as reliable FOR OUR PURPOSES, as the new.
Then again, EVERYTHING was easier for me 40 years ago! ;D ;D
TOM
I have had three Prevost coaches and as they got newer they got more complicated. My first was an 87 that was only about 21 months old when i bought it and it had DDEC and ATEC. It did not have any other computerized features or systems and when I sold it at 250,000 miles my most significant maintenance issue was a couple of relays (solenoids) that never seemed to last long. If I fast forward to my present coach it can be a nightmare, but it is not. It is not the latest with respect to complexity meaning the house and chassis using multiplexed electrical systems, but it is still over the top compared to the previous 2 coaches.
Bottom line, I would not go back because the systems are so user friendly and have been so reliable that it is by far the easiest coach to use. There is one caveat and that is if anything goes wrong I am on it immediately and will not let issues pile up. So far my entire repair history with the house or chassis electrical systems is the replacement of 2 relays and I know I have the potential to have serious expensive systems repairs, such as if the Crestron control system has issues, but we consider the bus a home when we use it and we do not consider ourselves campers or willing to rough it. We are too old and too spoiled now.
But I can tell you a poorly maintained newer coach can be a nightmare.
We have a 1965 MC5a. I would not go to an older coach. Although somehow I think that question was not directed at the likes of me. I will add that I have sometimes thought it would be nice to have a newer four stroke or pondered whether a more standard motorhome would be more practical, yet I do not think I will do anything differently in the foreseeable future.
Olde Jon likes to control everything in the coach from his easy chair with a remote.The Crestron system is nice only problem they get outdated about every year and then it is $$$$$.
I hate it when ones goes down and I am paying some geek $125.00 per hr with a laptop watching the system boot up for hours
I think Dan and Scott are with me. I would not trade HUGGY for any new fangled coach made and sure not for a 40 ft beast that is 13.6 high.
Would not last where I go. and I have no need for 50 amp service except to loan to my friends when their onan quits.
Huggy has just enough of newness to drive good and be a pleasure to go anywhere I want.
uncle ned
1952 4104 gm #172
I'm deep into mechanical Eagle's, and will be for some time, but that MCI 7 is mighty attractive at the right price. I suspect the reserve is at least $50,000 or more. If you have lot's of money and can pay garages whatever they want to fix something newer and computerized, then go for four-strokes, but if you are of more modest means and like to fix things yourself, then stay mechanical. Two strokes with Allison's are golden in my opinion.
LOL I can tell you one thing a broom handle is useless on a B500 ;D ;D ;D for shifting
We're with uncle Ned, it's in the past for us. Even more over cause we are gear heads. It keeps my right arm strong since I laid off of other things... We love the simplicity at least in that spectrum of our lives cause everything is movin' kinda fast these days so when we're crawling up a steep grade we just set back & enjoy the hell out of it and smell the roses along the way.
I purposely looked for a coach that was mechanical.....no electronics. Keeping it simple makes repairs easier, and likely cheaper.
Sure the 8V doesnt get the fuel economy that a 4 stroke does, and it may be a tad sluggish up hills, but I have yet to have any issue that left us 'dead in the water'. I remember reading a few years back about a guy with a newer Prevost that he couldn't use for weeks, and he found the problem completely by accident.....a corroded ground wire that disabled the computer(s).
Mark
Old versus new is a matter of personal taste. And finances too, as newer costs more. I love old MCIs because that is what I drove in the 70s. But that is just me. But I also have stayed somewhat abreast of bus progress by driving here and there and part time my whole life. So I am in a position to tell you that the newer models are far better in terms of performance, reliability, drivability and durability (more stainless steel= less rust). Yes the bus boards and facebook groups are full of breakdowns and problem solving, but you don't hear much about the hundred thousands of trouble free miles driven with both the old mechanical, and the newer electronic cars, both in private and revenue service. My experience with buses and trucks since they started to go electronic in the '80s, is that they are increasingly easier to service and more reliable. I looked after a MCI D3 with S60 for a hockey team for several years, and never had any trouble with anything electronic. The usual maintenance related to brakes, suspension and the like remains the same as the old buses. But you don't have to run the rack on an electronic engine. You tune it up with software, and it doesn't go out of adjustment. I was reading recently how electronic engines and emissions systems are getting a lot more trouble free and reliable the last 4 to 5 years, so that buses and trucks aren't shut down on the side of the road as much as they were before. Sure, not many bus nuts on this board are in the market for a less than 5 year old bus, but this just illustrates my view of modernization in buses. The buses I drive for the charter company don't have electronic problems. They have the normal mechanical issues like any vehicle, like brakes wear out, radiators spring a leak on occasion, etc. But they are SO much nicer to drive...
JC
An old bus with a 2 stoke Detroit is great, as long as you can maintain and fix it yourself. If not, a bus nut is better off with a later 4 stroke that any truck shop can deal with.
JC
I hate paying for any kind of repairs that I can do myself. I have an '82 RTS mechanical that I have had for 25 years and I can fix any anything on the bus/conversion because I built it. Not for sale in my lifetime.
--Geoff
If you ever drive a bus with a 60 series and B500 you will love it, sure you get hiccups every so often you do on mechanical engines too.
I like the DL3 a 45 ft bus with a turning radius about the same as a 35 ft MCI 5 or GM with the air bags mounted outwards they ride and drive like a dream nothing like a older MCI or GM where you chased the dishes when you made corner to fast
I went from a 1990 6v92ta ddec at 350 hp , ht740 4 speed auto 40 ' er to a 2000 4 stroke cat 3406e and a 6 speed auto at 550 hp and ton,s of torque 45 ' er
would I go back NO WAY !
but the 45 ' er is to big for some camping sites
dave
Hello: Cant because of the money and my age.. I would love to drive a more comfortable better handling bus . BUT its not going to happen so be happy; enjoy what you have... Time is marching on and my age is catching up and starting to limit options.....
Still I am working on a smaller conversion.. a 30 foot 89 orion one with a cummins L10 ,B400R . 30 foor city coach.. needs to raise roof 16 inches and much other work..presently in the garage getting ready to cut the roof loose with the front dash. To raise..cutting the front under the lights..
SO Can I sell everything and buy a newer bus.. probably but If you look I have a newer bus under construction...WIll it finish? Hopefully ... My age is helping me downsize..Easier to drive and maintain..etc.
Regards. And happy bussin.. FWIW. My opinions biased of course.
Mike
Geoff, well put! A man after my own heart. I stay very much in tune with the ole' bus - sometimes if I want to (or not). :-)
Quote from: luvrbus on June 05, 2017, 03:27:56 PM
Olde Jon likes to control everything in the coach from his easy chair with a remote.The Crestron system is nice only problem they get outdated about every year and then it is $$$$$.
I hate it when ones goes down and I am paying some geek $125.00 per hr with a laptop watching the system boot up for hours
Clifford is right but nothing in life is free and I think the ease of use and reliability outweighs the cost when something pukes and I need to hire a geek to fix it.
I thought a few years ago a nice original Ford built in 1950 and without all the electronics of today would make a great toad. The car was as good mechanically as I could make it and it drove like crap and was not safe for today's roads. The brakes, steering and handling were lousy. I ended up completely redoing the car with a new Fatman chassis, PS< PDB, vintage air, a Tremec 5 speed, small block 302 V8, etc. and now it is as easy and safe as any car today. Go back? Nope.
I've had my '77 AMGeneral 10240B since 1993. All mechanical, everything installed by me, VERY reliable. Would I do an older conversion again-yes and am working on ...
1985 Kenworth K100E 90" Cabover with Cat 3406B jacket water aftercooled, Allison HT740, custom made Wrico 12kw with both electronic controls and mechanical override, custom made 32ft box with 13ft garage. Zero electronics on my truck and the Cat 3406B is still made as the 3406C (nearly identical) for 3rd world countries that don't want an electronic engine for generator, pump, etc. 3406C is also made as an natural gas engine. So should be able to get parts for a long time. California has some strange rules. Since my truck is now a registered Motor Home, I'm exempt from smog laws.
Also, my truck and bus are both 40ft-which means anyone can drive them (Class C can drive a 3 axle house car no mention on weight or brakes) AND pull up to a 10,000lb trailer behind. Also can go on any highway. If you're over 40ft, then you're restricted to truck routes. California is 102" wide and 14ft tall (my truck is 13'6"). Good Luck, TomC
Jon You might say huggy is like your toad. every thing to make her drive like a new coach except with the best mechanical 6v92 than i could afford
Which is great.
uncle ned
I'm still in the "not sure yet" camp. My former bus was a 1984 MCI 9 with a mechanical 6v92T and an Allison 740 auto trans. That coach really didn't give me problems at all. Radiators leaked and needed replacing, coach was a bit sluggish and I never figured out why, but it never ever had electronic issues.
My new coach is a 1992 DDEC II MCI 102C3 with an electronic Allison 748 ATEC trans with touchpad controls. I LOVE how the trans shifts, I LOVE my throttle by wire instead of a stiff cable, I LOVE the power and being able to turn it up or down with a laptop. But I hate the electronic gremlins that have plagued this coach. If I can sort them out and have a good many years of fulltiming without more issues, I'll be sold on the newer tech. If I continue to have issues, I'll be pining for my old bus.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170607/f9790101553f97cb693c477899373e28.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170607/2ec70cb02e5a88d14e8e316e784e0c46.jpg)
I was under the impression DDEC systems offered better diagnostic logging and reporting, more like OBD II for cars. Maybe the later DDEC versions offer more and better reporting for helping sort out mech and elec issues.
I figured it out! Buy two or three brand new top of the line conversions, so when bus #1 is in for warranty repairs, you have another bus to drive, or have a third bus if #1&2 are broken down.
--Geoff
Geoff-- Yes, that's exactly what we do with our jets.
I like geoffs idea. I'm down with that.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Lin you have Jets too.... I thought we saw you fly by us at the Jet Rally.... :o
Dave, maybe. If it was the one with duct taped wing, it was us.
you know .... when you guys get the three coach's ... you can't just let them sit or they will go bad ... so if you want I will go out of my way to exercise one of then for you
dave
If I went back to an older bus, it would have to be horse drawn to be older! ;D ;D :D
Quote from: pabusnut on June 08, 2017, 05:50:37 PMIf I went back to an older bus, it would have to be horse drawn to be older! ;D ;D :D
*Some* people might like that!!
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi45.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff60%2Foonrahnjay%2Fhorse_zpsn1bltanw.png&hash=706f1409402ec261e701c3f9743b3a24857d435c) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/oonrahnjay/media/horse_zpsn1bltanw.png.html)
It's hard to see, but the horse-drawn "bus" looks like it's on tracks, which disqualifies it as a trolley.
--Geoff
Quote from: Geoff on June 08, 2017, 06:10:50 PMIt's hard to see, but the horse-drawn "bus" looks like it's on tracks, which disqualifies it as a trolley.
--Geoff
Missed that! Well spotted!
This is more of my price range-- and speed :D
Here's my choice...aerodynamic, the roof is pointed in the right direction
Part of the attraction of my old bus is that everything is robust and fixable.
When I was a kid, I was put off by all the electronics on cars and the growing complexity. Folks would write me off as a luddite. Now I work in the industry, all I said was true:
eg: Cummins engines when being rebuilt- there are more problems with electronic actuators than the base engine hardware- such as the engine main bearings or cams for example. and within the turbo charger unit, say, its the electronic printed circuit boards that give out over time.
Another example: My Escalade has been nothing but grief - and its not the L92 motor (although annoyingly it has oil leaks) but mainly all the electronics.
Therefore it pleases me no end that my 8v71 is all mechanical. Even when I eventually upgrade to an 8v92- although I'll use a silver series base- I'll make sure its governmed mechanically with no DDEC!
My bus with mechanical 8V-71 always starts with about a 1 second push of the starter button. My truck's Cat 3406B mechanical starts with 2 compression hits. Good Luck, TomC
Well, this thread has proved one thing:
I am still able to stir up trouble!! ;D ;D
I think I'm going back. I've been looking at some of the '80s Newells. They seem to be on the order of the Wanderlodges without the complicated mechanicals.
That is, unless I find a pretty MCI in my price range.... ;D ;D
But first, I need to recover enough to drive what I have.
Thanks to all for the input!
Happy Busing
TOM
Yes I would IF a special bus came along. Old. Already converted by a competent builder or owner. Would have to be in a particular fashion and in good to excellent overall condition. My yearly mileage count would be low.
The particular problem would be it must be a Crown Supercoach between about 1976 and about 1988 model year with a BC or NTC Cummings with a 10 speed Roadranger with Jake. A very specific Bus Conversion indeed. :)
Quote from: HB of CJ on June 10, 2017, 01:00:57 PM
Yes I would IF a special bus came along. Old. Already converted by a competent builder or owner. Would have to be in a particular fashion and in good to excellent overall condition. My yearly mileage count would be low.
The particular problem would be it must be a Crown Supercoach between about 1976 and about 1988 model year with a BC or NTC Cummings with a 10 speed Roadranger with Jake. A very specific Bus Conversion indeed. :)
There's still quite a few Crown tandems with Big-Cam Cummins and RT or RTO and a Jake, but none that I know of that are converted such as you would like. Anaheim recently sold all their tandems, and they now have new owners who are having fun with them. I rode in one of them a fortnight ago at our annual Crown get-together when we visited the Cantos collection, and it's a monster - I've never been in a bus that accelerates so strongly onto the freeway in top gear! Some of Anaheim's had recent repowers with fresh 855 Cummins, so their new owners have essentially new engines in their buses. The supply of good Crowns is fast drying up, so now may be a good time to get one before their prices rise too much.
John
Might go newer but not by much and just love our MCI 5C 1979..... ;D
Using an older bus for the foundation of a more modern drivetrain is a good idea, but not the best way to spend your money converting it yourself (ask anyone how much $$ spent to complete a modern bus conversion on an older platform and make it perform the way it should), unless your funds and patience isn't limited. The older rigs have more character, but lack some of the modern conveniences that shoppers are looking for in a newer model (like 4 stroke engines, disc brakes, independent suspension), but isn't a roadblock to a comfortable conversion. The older 2 stroke engines are a true workhorse, and even in light of their age, can be repaired rather easily with most parts readily available. Would I like to have a Series 60? Sure. Would I like to have it in an older bus... even better. Look at the red Scenic that is at many of the bus rallies online. It can be done, but not cheaply and not without chasing all the gremlins your going to encounter. I think a lot of people would like to have a shiny Prevost with 4 slide outs, but would you know where to look in the system to find a plumbing leak or electrical short when your looking at a repair buried deep in a modern bus.