If you are installing a new transmission cooler, either as part of a new transmission install like I am, or to be an adjunct to help cool an existing install, how do you size it up?
And where the heck do you put it?
Brian
Quote from: bevans6 on May 26, 2017, 06:29:03 AM
If you are installing a new transmission cooler, either as part of a new transmission install like I am, or to be an adjunct to help cool an existing install, how do you size it up?
And where the heck do you put it?
Brian
Call United Transmission in Ca let them size it for you with a Hayden cooler,location on a MCI that is a challenge.You aftercooler is going out today and you are on your own for the block adapter and tool I have never been able to buy the parts for the Kent/Moore I broke.I would buy the water jacket adapter new if I could those are almost impossible to remove from another engine BTDT ??? ??? the plug in your engine takes a 2 pin spanner and the water jacket adapter takes 3 pin spanner,what ever DD used for a sealant is tough stuff
Can't tell you the size since we no longer have the bus, but the PO put 2 of them just to the outside of the radiators. Little concerned when i first saw the setup as i figured that , 1. the airflow thru the radiators would be impeded, and 2. the heat from the coolers would keep the radiators from cooling as much as possible. Never was a problem, i think that because he used two instead of just one that any negative effects were minimized.
Clifford, thank you for the cooler, I will do my best to get it installed but if you broke two tools trying to get the plug out I may just end up doing the same thing.
I found a web site that calls out 45Kbtu to 80K btu per hour for a MT- 647 behind 300 hp. I am closer to 350 but within their torque specification. They recommended a cooler that was 19 X 24 x 1.5, and 42 - 64 Kbtu, or 24 X 25 X 1.5 and 55 - 86 Kbtu. My buddy gave me a cooler that was used to cool a compressor head, it is in very good shape and when I drained it the oil was clean and clear. It is 20 X 24 X 3", double row and double pass. It has a 10" wide section with 10 tubes that are 1/2" in diameter, down to a common plenum, across and up an identical 10" wide section. The top and bottom plenums are 2" in diameter, and I make the total of 10 X 1/2" tubes to be the a little bigger in area than a 1.5" diameter tube. So I feel it will flow quite well, probably flow better than the -12 hose I will use to connect it up. On the same chart, I found a similar size double row cooler that was spec'd at 90 - 115 Kbtu. Is going larger to this bigger cooler a potential problem? Will I have issues with under-cooling. I was going to mount it inside the engine compartment about where the ac pump was located on an MCI 5C
Brian
You also need to use 2 filters 1 on the supply and 1 on the return Allison went to the 2 filters about 15 years ago for longer life on their rebuilt transmission in fact they void the warranty if not used
I have the same set up as Ed-- one in front of each radiator. It seems to work okay. It does heat up on long grades in about the same proportion as the engine. That's when the misters come on to handle both. The only problem is that, since the system is totally independent of the engine, the transmission does not have the advantage of engine heat in cold weather. This is not an issue for our location and type of traveling. This could be different for you winter wonderland folks.
Hi, Brian:
When I installed my MT-654 behind the 8v-71NA in my MC-7. I used a Hayden 2305 cooler mounted in a replacement rear door. No additional cooling for the transmission.
One filter mounted on supply line to the transmission. I installed 2 electric fans and a temp gauge on the cooler, but have never had to run the fans. I used some 1" stainless braided lines that I found at a liquidation place....surplus from MCI but I don't know what model. Temp usually runs 150-160 unless its very warm out, or we are in hilly terrain......only once did I have to stop and let things cool down, after a bunch of 5-6% grades near Globe and ShowLow,AZ.
I sized the cooler based on information on page 6 of this site....... http://www.haydenauto.com/upload/HaydenAuto/Documents/Cat_Hayden/Transmission_Engine_Oil_Coolers.pdf (http://www.haydenauto.com/upload/HaydenAuto/Documents/Cat_Hayden/Transmission_Engine_Oil_Coolers.pdf)
Likely 25-30 thousand miles now on this setup, and so far, so good!!
Mark
I would use 2 filters on the 647 for insurance I got the base and filters numbers from the latest revision here just 2
Allison base 29510923 and filter 29510922 that is high efficiency filter
AC base PM 16-1 and filter PF 141
I have more base and filter numbers if you need them but that is the 2 brands I use
I have a lockup valve for that transmission I can send you too if you want one, the draw back to 600 series they only lock up in 3rd and 4th
Hi Mark, that is the same site I found to get info from. I think my cooler that I have is a little smaller than the 2305 in dimensions, thicker, a lot heavier when full, and with about 20% greater capacity. Mounting it in a door opening is a good idea, but I will play with my inside the compartment idea first. I should be able to get filter bases either in town, or from my buddy with all the scrap engines. I like the idea of two filters. Clifford, it you haven't already sent my cooler, maybe you could put the lock-up valve in. I'm guessing it's not hard to change out?
Here is my progress. Remember I made the adaptor with highly accurate registers for the pilot on the torque converter and the ID of the flex plate. I mounted the flex plate on the adaptor, slipped than onto the torque converter and marked the OD of the TC on the flex plate. I then cut along the line with a cut-off wheel, and cleaned up down to the line. Then I mounted the flex plate to the torque converter, bolted it down with a number of bolts, and with a flap wheel in my grinder I cleaned it up to be exactly the OD of the TC, with the outer edge exactly flush. Then I slipped the ring gear on over the flex plate, and bolted it up. This is exactly the setup referred to in the sample diagram of the Allison Mechanic's Tips manual, page 17, Figure 2.2, FWIW. And the original SAE 1 flex plate is the picture above it. Irony. That book is on-line as a PDF download.
Next, and here is my question, I plan to tack weld the flex plate to the ring gear so I can move them around as one piece. Around 4 welds, 1/2" long. I figure this is OK since the original SAE 1 ring gear was welded to the flex plate after heat treat, so I think I won't cause a problem welding a couple of tacks on it.
Pictures: Hacked to death SAE 1 ring gear, closeup of weld on SAE 1 RG, and SAE 2 RG and FP mounted on TC.
Pictures of
The after cooler and T stat housing are gone,I will ship the valve and hoses later after you test drive lol you may enjoy free wheeling in 1st and 2nd gear, 24v valve right ?
I'm so glad you posted this. I have a few stupid questions.
Because I haven't jacked her up to get a good look underneath, I don't know where a tranny cooler would be. But I was looking at the link you posted, and it mentioned putting a cooler in with the AC Condenser? I have a hard time seeing anything behind that mammoth oil bath air cleaner, (the 8 stud strip shown on 99% of electrical schematics...that I can't find) but there is a huge tranny filter under there. Where might I look?
Also, my fuel filters are mounted on a setup that looks very similar to the pictures, and I have no fuel switch. Any of you seen a similar setup?
I apologize for the ignorance of these questions, but these systems details are important for me to fully understand. :o
I always thought that factory auto trans MCI's had a water - oil cooler along with the engine oil - water cooler, and did not use an external air - oil cooler. Never looked at one closely, so I don't know. I am having to put it a quite large air - oil cooler for the trans, because I don't have such a water - oil cooler to use.
Brian
Most did have a double cooler for the transmission,the military used a air to oil or the inline cooler you see both but never the engine mounted double cooler on a military engine
When I got my NATO engine it had a humongous oil cooler on the side, a double canister affair that had to be 15 inches long. You can see one of the two canisters in this picture., the other is hidden below the engine dolly. I believe, being a tank engine, that the engine drove a hydraulic pump, and this helped cool the pump. My engine specification was used in the M110 self propelled howitzer, among other things. They had lots of different cooler arrangements, but in my bus it's a single pass single cooler, since I had the manual transmission originally. First pic is the engine when I picked it up, second is when it was going back into the bus, you might be able to see the single cooler behind the exhaust plumbing.
Brian
The cylinder cooler was to cool the engine oil those are not your average 6 or 7 gal oil pans did you use the military pan looks like it lol oil suppliers love you ;D
My spin on filter is the same size (orange rather than white)...and the pan appears to be similar to mine. I don't believe I have the large tube below the valve cover, but I can't see sh**.
And I am 99.99% positive that my 50DN is gear driven (18 teeth) and oil cooled. So, if I'm understanding you all, I might not see the cooler anyway?
I would do just about anything to have that dolly for a month or so. Where did you get it? Seriously...man, to be able to have my beauty out of frame...a dream.
I doubt you have the military oil pan on a 8 they hold from 10 gals to 15 gals of oil huge oil pans lol but if you would like one I have several.The military 8v92 the alternator runs off the blower
You of course, are correct. The pan isn't that large ;D
But I found another tube. I look all the time, and always find something...
This is a metal tube with a couple hoses that goes between the heads in the rear (I can see it from the access inside) then there is another larger tube above all that with a small valve like the crossover tube has.
I really want one of those dollys.
I made the dolly, 4" square by 1/8" wall tube and four 1,000 lb casters. BusWarrior has it now, and my engine stands that I made. You don't want one, to be honest. What you want is the Evans ERS (Engine removal System) Mk 2, which is a $200 (less used) 3 ton pallet jack, and a bunch of 4X4's and 2X6's and such. You take the pallet jack and build a cradle that picks up the oil pan flange of the engine with the lumber, suitably braced, and you screw the engine to the cradle with some big screws. Works a treat, rolls a lot easier, and you can lift the engine up and down. Now, the dolly I made was the thing for the time, because I strapped it to my tractor to push it around, and I was on a very rough pad that would have been hard to push the pallet jack around on. But a pallet jack (or a full tile fork lift) is the way to go to pull an engine.
Pallet jack here with different cradles for different engines works like a charm
If either of you could let me know where I can get one, I would so appreciate it! PM if that is what is PC.
The only other thing I would need is to figure out how to get the bumper off ;D
You can get a pallet Jack at harbor Freight, Home depot, rental yard. Look on Craig's-List and they in there sometimes for cheap. Even if they don't work generally its just a rebuild kit needed. A Single hydrolic-cylinder is all that can go wrong with them and thats just a seal. The little control valves are just steel balls that open and close.
Bumper just unbolts at the cradle ends. Lots of PB Blaster on bolts or heat to get them to turn. HTH
Dave5Cs
I believe the bumper bolts are the four little 5/16" ones that go through the big rubber spacers that hold the bumper out from the body. Behind that would be a steel cross-member that bolts to the frame with 5 1/2" bolts at each side. That crossmember is critical.
Brian
I'll try to remember to take a photo of my trans cooler tomorrow. It looks like a baby 55 gal drum on its side with trans and coolant lines running out of the ends.
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Found this on Hayden site:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170528/258c6aeb27457f685ddc4e8770dda876.png)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170528/94a9e2cad550a9b8090c20b19b3ca855.png)
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Thanks Guys :)
Scott...I was looking at the same Guide. I need to stray a bit off topic. Apologies in advance... I try not to do this, but Daves Photobucket demands I ask a few. Please forgive me ???
Brian, If I'm thinking of the same cross-member, its round in the middle and has several U-bolts to frame...in addition to all the lower steel rails across and in both corners.
Dave... Your bus looks like mine, minus one axel. Same rear cap.I have a couple of questions. What is that cap on the top holding the AC units?
And...entrance stairs, left as you open the door. I have a blue line that is capped off in that little box. I don't suppose a girl could use that (along with the little 12v air compressor and miles of air line dad had laying around (that he never got around to using) to create a way to air up the bus air bags? The front emergency fill valve under my driver seat is disconnected, all those lines go to the E-6 brake valve (I think) and the quick connect in the curbside rear access door doesn't seem to do a darn thing. It goes to the bottom of a small round canister. That canister also has a BIG tube from the Tru-Flo 700 compressor. BUT...I do NOT think it's a dryer. I have looked up every dryer DD ever made, and this doesn't qualify. It has no drain, nada.
Any thoughts?
Quote from: Scott & Heather on May 27, 2017, 10:58:24 PM
Found this on Hayden site:
IMG - deleted to save space
That's VERY good info, Scott. Did you get a URL for that site, please? Thanks, BH
The flow rate is very important don't down size to save space or you defeated the purpose and the transmission will run hotter air movement and flow can be come a challenge on a bus when adding a air to oil cooler
Ok, Andrea, here's the photos of my trans cooler. Kinda a bad idea in my opinion on an 8v92TA coach...these engines already are at the limit keeping them cool, they certainly don't need trans heat too. I'm working to eliminate mine and go with a separate trans cooler altogether. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170528/a0d768c97b45173d91db1f2045c7741b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170528/fa72d8b3b23206e87b765006ac7c5031.jpg)
Cliff, can you please let me know what kind of deal you might be able to make me on your Allison cooler? And can you tell me the exact measurements?
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Bruce, same link that was posted earlier: http://www.haydenauto.com/upload/HaydenAuto/Documents/Cat_Hayden/Transmission_Engine_Oil_Coolers.pdf
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Andrea that little pipe looking thing in the rear access door is the ping tank. It should be drained regularly along with the air tanks. If you connect shop air to the fitting in the bottom it should air up the entire bus air system. If it doesn't then that means it is plugged. Take it off and clean it out. That is one item that gets commonly overlooked.
The little blue airline to the left of the entry door probably used to go to the airlock actuator for the door. It gets energized only when the door is shut all the way with the handle pushed into the lock position, and the ignition on.
The emergency fill under the driver seat...there should be more than one. There should be one connected to the park brake system and one to the aux air system I believe. Just going by memory there, but you need to get the park brake emergency fill in working order at the very least. That is how a wrecker company releases the brakes if you ever need a tow.
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Scott, that cooler is one of your problems, looks like that is shop made cooler how in the world would you replace the tubes if it developed a leak.Do you have a photo of the complete system on how it is plumbed from the water pump ?. The air to oil cooler I have measures 30x40 inches from the outside of the tubes
Scott the idea and method Stormcloud Mark mentioned really sounds like a great setup. The idea of electric fans on thermostats is, in my opinion a perfect oppurtunity here. Of course theres always the locations available. Just sayin good tip there, and we all been using hyd hoses for doorways or in part movements a long time. Keep up the good work!
Have a good weekend everyone 🇺🇸
Floyd
The cooler my friend gave me is about the equivalent of the 2292 in the chart. but 33 by 24 overall size, so a little bigger. I guess too big isn't an issue if I have fans on a thermostat. I was actually planning to try it without fans, if it's where I plan to put it, or in a door, it will get lots of natural airflow from the engine blowers.
Quote from: daddysgirl on May 28, 2017, 04:52:20 AM
Thanks Guys :)
Dave... Your bus looks like mine, minus one axel. Same rear cap.I have a couple of questions. What is that cap on the top holding the AC units?
And...entrance stairs, left as you open the door. I have a blue line that is capped off in that little box. I don't suppose a girl could use that (along with the little 12v air compressor and miles of air line dad had laying around (that he never got around to using) to create a way to air up the bus air bags? The front emergency fill valve under my driver seat is disconnected, all those lines go to the E-6 brake valve (I think) and the quick connect in the curbside rear access door doesn't seem to do a darn thing. It goes to the bottom of a small round canister. That canister also has a BIG tube from the Tru-Flo 700 compressor. BUT...I do NOT think it's a dryer. I have looked up every dryer DD ever made, and this doesn't qualify. It has no drain, nada.
Any thoughts?
The extra roof on top of our Bus is because it is a Saudi Coach. Its just an extra piece over the original roof that air goes between to give it cooling when it was over there in 120 degree weather.
You should look into re- hooking up the fitting in the tool bay under the driver seat area. That is for a tow truck or hauler to hook up an air line to it , to release the brakes so he can move it if not fully aired up.HTH
Dave5Cs
Quote from: Scott & Heather on May 28, 2017, 07:57:43 AM
Bruce, same link that was posted earlier: http://www.haydenauto.com/upload/HaydenAuto/Documents/Cat_Hayden/Transmission_Engine_Oil_Coolers.pdf (http://www.haydenauto.com/upload/HaydenAuto/Documents/Cat_Hayden/Transmission_Engine_Oil_Coolers.pdf)
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Thanks!
Cliff I'll post more photos of the setup tomorrow. No one has seen this cooler setup before?
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Here are more photos of my trans cooler plumbing, sorry Brian for the thread takeover...at Least it's on topic lol. It appears they tapped into the side of the engine block where the block heater would go. It goes to the trans cooler heat exchanger and then back to the engine block. That lower large bolted box that the lower coolant tube goes to is a mystery to me. Not sure what that is:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170529/36d1e047d0aaea8e1ab1f9d3ff521425.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170529/45ca8ee126bf7c14de80a80ac2a0bef7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170529/dc0d07c241149e8f7a7801f1a3e26516.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170529/d3692fc68e709fd06a45161721a0a02f.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170529/b7666c147b376d02e85995d6e9a15204.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170529/c034b99523cd9bca3710200edbe1b307.jpg)
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I don't get the plumbing on that setup the cooler should be directly off the water pump but your engine oil cooler is plumbed there I never saw that before on a 8v92
I don't know about your cooler, But I see some hoses that need replacing!
Kevin you beat me to it. Second picture for one on the leftside of it has two rips in it eh... ;D
Dave5Cs
Cliff do
You mean engine oil or trans fluid? As for the hoses meh, just flesh wounds lol.
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The first cooler is a engine oil cooler,most 8v92 in buses had what we call a double,double cooler mounted on the side of the engine 1/2 was the engine oil the other 1/2 was for the Allison,your setup looks like originally the engine had a manual transmission and somebody added that cooler.The double double DD cooler did a decent job cooling the engine oil and transmission fluid since the coolant passed through the cooler 1st then through the engine to dissipate the heat
Quote from: Scott & Heather on May 28, 2017, 07:45:42 AM
Ok, Andrea, here's the photos of my trans cooler. Kinda a bad idea in my opinion on an 8v92TA coach...these engines already are at the limit keeping them cool, they certainly don't need trans heat too. I'm working to eliminate mine and go with a separate trans cooler altogether. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170528/a0d768c97b45173d91db1f2045c7741b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170528/fa72d8b3b23206e87b765006ac7c5031.jpg)
Cliff, can you please let me know what kind of deal you might be able to make me on your Allison cooler? And can you tell me the exact measurements?
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Oh lord no. That thing is HUGE! :D
Quote from: thomasinnv on May 28, 2017, 08:09:52 AM
Andrea that little pipe looking thing in the rear access door is the ping tank. It should be drained regularly along with the air tanks. If you connect shop air to the fitting in the bottom it should air up the entire bus air system. If it doesn't then that means it is plugged. Take it off and clean it out. That is one item that gets commonly overlooked.
The little blue airline to the left of the entry door probably used to go to the airlock actuator for the door. It gets energized only when the door is shut all the way with the handle pushed into the lock position, and the ignition on.
The emergency fill under the driver seat...there should be more than one. There should be one connected to the park brake system and one to the aux air system I believe. Just going by memory there, but you need to get the park brake emergency fill in working order at the very least. That is how a wrecker company releases the brakes if you ever need a tow.
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As soon as my phone charges, I'll snap a pic and post it. I will so gladly take it off and clean it if I can use it to air up the bus. Thanks :)
I can tell you that the shell cooler is much smaller than the air to oil cooler. I had the 13spd manual taken out of my truck and an Allison HT740 installed. For cooling that put a huge cooler in front of the radiator. It is about 3ft tall by 1.5ft wide. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: Dave5Cs on May 28, 2017, 12:52:45 PM
The extra roof on top of our Bus is because it is a Saudi Coach. Its just an extra piece over the original roof that air goes between to give it cooling when it was over there in 120 degree weather.
You should look into re- hooking up the fitting in the tool bay under the driver seat area. That is for a tow truck or hauler to hook up an air line to it , to release the brakes so he can move it if not fully aired up.HTH
Dave5Cs
That roof is too cool, literally and figuratively. I just finished the first insulation layer on the interior rear ceiling. I had to do that work before 7AM or after 8PM because the metal was so hot. But now that I finished the re-work of the the rear AC, I don't feel like I'm in an oven.
I agree with you on the fill valve. That tank has one line coming out of the end adjacent to the emergency valve (I'm assuming it will trace to the front leveling valve). That's it. No other lines connected to it, but I believe there is a plug on the other end.
If so, is there any reason I could not connect that end to the little valve, or should I modify the existing line? I need to clean up that tank...(the entire compartment really) anyway, but I'm not sure adding another hole is the best idea?
I need to look at the pipe in the rear also.